Kily,

You have probably seen my post on TM94's thread. I am in the same boat. I have my wife home now, but many times wonder if this is what I really want to do. It is natural.

It is also the place you need to be in order to go to Plan B! Now you are ready. We have talked about this before. Send the letter, shut down contact, and then let things go its way. Either way, you are now ready to move your life forward. Neither way is easy...but both are VERY simple.

You are at the end. Just as I was. The only question now is who will be with you on the other side of that door.

In His arms.

The anger comes from frustration.

If things would change just a little, progress could be made.

It is clear that in both ( Kily, and Lisa's) cases there are still feelings of love on both sides. So, if that is true ( and both of you feel it) then why won't they do something to heal and repair things as you are trying so hard to do?

I proabably shouldn't say this ( it's a DJ) but I don't believe Lisa's H will change. After finding out about his past, and that this is a repeat, I don't think he will ever want to change and so, will remain a captive of his poor choices all his life. I do think Kily's X will respond some day, and learn and change, but don't know where Kily will be then.

To both of you, this anger is natural for what is happening, but we grow by learning new ways of doing things that work better. People like you more if you are nice to them. We learn to set boundries while being kind, and pleasent. Then they get angry because you are getting over things and they can't. Oh well, better that than continuing the anger cycle yourselves.

SS

SS-

I am always ready to kneel when the presence of the great wise ones enters the post....I am humbly on my knees saying prayers of thanks to people like you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You have touched on the one thing that has kept me here so long.

The anger:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is clear that in both ( Kily, and Lisa's) cases there are still feelings of love on both sides. So, if that is true ( and both of you feel it) then why won't they do something to heal and repair things as you are trying so hard to do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bingo.

It gets deeper though. I had to really sit with this and open some wounds to get to the truth.
What I feel in this moment is that he failed me and heres why:

He continued to hang on after I had cut the ties. I did so in such a way that I wanted to GURANTEE that I could never look back. You see, I knew that I would want to return there to the safety of what we had. I knew that this wasn't healthy for me. I was close to taking my own life because I saw no other way. I KNEW in my HEART that he was NEVER going to want to look inside so I GAVE UP!

JL was right with his analogy.
I NEVER expected him to hang on. I didn't TRUST that he would really change. I was TERRIFIED that it would just be the way it was before. I didn't want to go back to that darkness...

Moving forward:
Finally, I decide to take a chance. I realize what had made me so unhappy, and I found that I could get there once I had clarity. I came back and REALLY laid my heart out. I put my faith in the things that he fought for. I accepted in my heart that if he fought that hard then he would be willing to try to change things. The things that made me unhappy were the same things that were making HIM unhappy. If we could just get to that, it could work.

Instead, my faith was shattered. HE went back on his unspoken promise to be there for me. He continued to pull me back and when I finally arrive there, he's gone! I am not ANGRY, I'm devastated because I let go, then was shown that there was a possibility. I learn to trust, communicate, and believe, and THEN he acts the way that I origianlly believed he would.

I know that this is screwed up, but it is what I feel.

So, you say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I proabably shouldn't say this ( it's a DJ) but I don't believe Lisa's H will change. After finding out about his past, and that this is a repeat, I don't think he will ever want to change and so, will remain a captive of his poor choices all his life. I do think Kily's X will respond some day, and learn and change, but don't know where Kily will be then. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First -
I was a repeat. I was READY to change it...

I also believe that X will respond. That's what keeps me posting. I want with all my heart to be there, but I find it hard to keep my anger in check. I believe this for two reasons.

When I came back and approached him about Recovery he said to me:
1. "But then I have to give her up."

2. "How do I know that you aren't going to fall back into a depression and this starts up all over again"

Like I said before:

There comes a time when you love something SO much that you have to let it go. In time he will realize just how much love I had for him. That is enough for me. I realized just how much he had for me a little too late.

Kily

How/why were you a repeat, I don't understand. I don't want to threadjack here, but it was what SS said - not a DJ to me but just stating the sad truth about my H which was quite hard to read - other people can see it, he can't.

So Kily, what I meant was, what was it that made you want to change. Is that too difficult to answer, was there a particular thing, defining thing, moment?

Hope you're doing OK today.

Lisa

Hi all-

Just when you think that you have it all figured out, something happens to show you that you really don't.

I received the daily email from X. I fought with myself about answering and finally caved. I sent a short email with an answer and then I included a summary of the conversation that DS and I had this morning about our dog that had passed on. I also included a digital photo of DS when he was young.

I received this:

"I miss Bosco too. I have some regrets, sorry things could not have been different then"

So, I'm trying SO hard not to read into this...but I can't help it. It sounds to me like a wall came down. Should I respond with something like:

"we both have regrets of that time but we did it the best way that we knew"

or should I just let it go...

Kily

When H ignored my comments about the sadness I felt about getting DV and that it was done with a heavy heart, it hurt me very much that he did not respond at all.

I think perhaps even if you say something very simple like "I agree with you", you are acknowledging his regrets without starting to become too deeply involved in "emotions" which is probably not what you want to do right now.

Lisa

Lisa-

It's a really complicated thing to explain. I left my oldest son's father for X. I was VERY young and selfish then, and it WAS a relationship that needed to end. Since I had the issues I didn't address, there was a lot of baggage that carried on into this R with X. Most of it was eventully overcome, and X and I became closer because we forged through the tough times.

The same patterns eventaully arose again though, because I didn't deal with MY issues.

If you've followed my story, then you know what I had ot go through to get here. If not - the short version is that I had to reach rock bottom. I had to lose everything that I was holding on to because that is where my identity was branching from. Once I hit bottom, I was completely empty. It was a different kind of emptt than what you feel during depression. This was a "I don't know who I am and I need you GOD to help me" kind of empty.

My A's were just a way of medicating the pain and fear that were holding me prisoner.

Once the emptines took hold and I prayed for the answers, they came...I was filled up spiritually for the first time in my life, and I knew what it felt like to be a part of the world. I felt connected, loved, and I knew that I mattered.

A WEEK later, I found my wounded inner child - My link "finding Kily" explains what happened.

After that - I experienced a few more epiphanies. I read constantly. Thought deeply about EVERYTHING, and learned to trust my spiritual instincts.

I've basically come to understand and love myself, and figured out what it would take to make me happy. See, I had it all along...I just was in so much pain I couldn't see it. Sure, X is controlling, lying, and manipulative, but he needed to be because I was the same way. Underneath all of that is something deeper. LOVE. I realized that I really LOVED this man and that I WANTED the family that we had. I wanted to work on a partnership, I wanted to attempt to rebuild the friendship, I wanted to treat him the way that he deserved to be loved.

I wanted to be a whole, comitted, loving person with a completely different attitude, for me and for him. Most of all, I was tired of hiding and lying about who I was and what I felt.

This, of course, is a VERY simplified version of the events.

Since then, I've tried to treat him that way. It just hurts because like SS said:

"It is clear that in both ( Kily, and Lisa's) cases there are still feelings of love on both sides. So, if that is true ( and both of you feel it) then why won't they do something to heal and repair things as you are trying so hard to do?"

My spirit is screaming at me that we are supposed to be together. I've seen visions of this...but based on his actions, I have to let it go...

I hope this is what you were looking for.

I also want to add that my OS father has forgiven me, we are good friends now. He is astonished that I turned back and made an attempt to try and change things with X. He recognizes how much I love X and keeps telling me to give it up and let go, that X isn't worth my time. So, If he sees a difference, then there is a difference.

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Thanks Kily

I hope I didn't drag up too many painful memories. I have followed your story on and off, but didn't know some of the things you talked about.

I guess at the end of the day, it's that old chestnut "You can't change your spouse/partner, you can only change yourself" and you identified your destructive behaviour from a point of being rock bottom, where the only way is up.

As I have said on my posts, I realise that I can't help H, and I do worry that he will crash and burn. I almost see it as inevitable, but then think, well, perhaps not....

Take care of yourself today.

Lisa

Hi Kily,
( Perhaps I should say Hi Girls, because I know Lisa is here too.)

I know you are a repeat, knew it when I made that post, but there is a big difference. You don't say much about the first time around, so I can't read much in to that one ( and please don't, by now it doesn't matter.) The 2nd time around you were starting to be aware of problems, but you still didn't know the answers. I can't say just how much was your fault, but you did become aware and want to change things, and indeed you are doing all you can to change them now. You accept your part in the problems, accept that you caused pain, want to make things better.

If I recall, when Christ spoke to the women taken in adultery and then brought to him, he didn't say: "what a terrible thing you have done, you are condemned," he said: "neither do I condemn thee, go thy way and sin no more."
We don't know the whole story, but I think we can draw some conclusions from what we do know.

It is realizing that there is a problem and trying to fix it that makes the difference. Lisa's H has never been willing to accept responsibility of any kind. Not the first time, not the 2nd.

.................learned to trust my spiritual instincts.
My experience is that these things are real, and we do well to learn about them and what they mean. Prayer has done that for me. Right now, unless you get more guidance, you have to go with what you know, and that is that he is with someone else and keeps saying you are history. His e-mailing you daily does not show that what he says is the complete truth. Plan B is also for self protection and we want you to be protected, because we can see the pain in your posts as you go through the hope/despair cycle. If you can stand the pain, it looks to me like there is hope in his actions. I know other posters see it differently, and would like to see you distance yourself from the pain.

Your best bet is to do what cerri suggests for you to do, she is much better on the coaching end - you know she is very good at it.

As far as answering the e-mail, it can be as simple as saying: "thanks for the mail, I really enjoyed hearing from you. I don't always know how to reply, but I appreciate your comments."

Lisa, don't feel bad that you don't know everything. It's the different perspectives that come from all sides that often help people to finally understand. You are very helpful and I hope you keep helping.

Kily, as you work through your feelings I believe you will become more trusting of your own ability to cope with whatever happens. I believe that hope/despair cycle will smooth out to little blips instead of a sine wave of major proportions. It takes a long time to get over pain when we know we caused much of it ourselves, but you will if you continue in the direction you are going now. You have more of a chance for happiness now than you have ever had, it's just that old forest and trees thing that obscures your vision.

SS

Kily --
I don't know if this will help you or not, but I realized that my reaction to his A is about me, not about him -- I showed little hurt because of the overwhelming FURY!

And how bizarre -- virtually no emotional impact from a broken arm. All of the anger and fear was about abandonment.

Kily,
SS has many good words as usual. I have to say that your X has not totally given up yet. But, he's still afraid of what MIGHT happen if he allows himself to tear down those walls again. I've said before that your X and the old me are very much alike. IMHO X does not want to let go, but cannot bear to be hurt again. I agree with JL that he will eventually come around, but you may not be able to wait around in limbo land for that long.

For me it took hitting rock bottom as well. When my wife said she wanted to leave, then discovering she was in love with OM I hit rock bottom. It was then that I realized that it was not all her; I had many problems as well that were contributing factors in the deterioration of our marriage.

Your X will have to hit bottom and want to change, just as many of us have. In the mean time you have to decide what's best for Kily. Can you hold on and wait for that to happen? When I reached the point that I told my wife she had to go she began to change. I was at that point where I could no longer deal with the YoYo effect and her actions. I believe that was when she realized that she had to do something, and now she's trying.

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: TM94 ]</small>

Hi All -

Thanks again for the love and support. Sometimes it's just nice to be able to put your thoughts out there and know that someone is there reading...

SS -

I know that this is about me and patience. Your words have encouraged me many times when I thought I was at the end of my rope. You have drawn out the best of me, when the worst in me wants to rule...thanks for doing that. It really helps me dig when I just want to run.

BH&A-
I've followed your story and have read your pain. I know exactly what you arw saying too. That is exactly where I was coming from with the "I hate you incident". I don't want to live like that.

Thanks.

TM-Gee, you have SO much going on and you still have time to look in on me...I really appreciate it. Yes. I know that X will have to hit rock bottom. To be honest, I think that will happen when the house is settled and when the custody thing is over. See, he will experience losses that he doesn't anticipate. I don't want it to get there, but I need closure if he can't forgive me. I don't want to hurt him, my son, or myself anymore...

One thing I realized when talking to a co-worker today. I gave her a brief summary of the events on Sunday and it hit me...He doesn't want me to take my stuff. He was furious with me because I was looking through my clothes. Although he has someone living there, my things are still there too. Psychologically, as long as anything of mine remains, then he still has something to hold onto.

Maybe I'm reding into this, but why else would he be enraged that I was looking through my things? I was simply in the only closet that my things were in. I din't walk around the house, I wasn't snooping where I didn't belong...to me, that is the only thing that makes sense.

Then I get the "I have regrets about that time" email and I really have to wonder what he is thinking.

Well, only for a little while because it's time for me to stop worrying about the what if's. Hopefully Cerri will have something to say. I will follow her advice even if it's soomething I don't want to hear.

Thanks again.