Ok, I've been away for a couple of weeks due to work, and it looks like I may be leaving again in a week or so, this time for a month. So, I'll give you a quick rundown of what's been going on and how I'm feeling now. Many many changes....

My wife's sister came down for spring break a couple of weeks ago, they went out of course and I stayed home with the kids. I got a phone call from a friend of mine at 5:00 am saying that my wife, her sister, and their friend were back at his house. Apparently SIL and wife's friend were talking to my friend's roommate and friend, wife was talking with friends girlfriend. Of course I blew up, slipped back to the old TM94 and went off for a while. Wife never did come to the phone, and I told my friend I didn't want to talk to her, or see her. They came home at 6:30am and she asked me to cuddle her and hold her. The next day I was extremely cold toward her and didn't talk to her (the old me). She was being very nice and sweet the whole day.

That afternoon I blew up. I told her that was not the way a married woman acted (staying out until 6:30am). She responded with "I don't want to be married to you anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is." My response was simply "Get the F^(K OUT!!" She began to cry and we talked a little after that, she said she would be out as soon as she could.

A couple of days later she appologized and said that it was wrong of her to stay out that late, and to go back to someone elses house, and not to call me herself. They went out the night before her sister left and were home early.

Since this whole incident she has decided that she wants to begin seeing an IC to see what's wrong with her, and fix some of her problems. She has began making plans for our future together (kinda sorta) and has been EXTREMELY nice and cuddly to me. She keeps telling me "I like you" and giving me kisses. She has made plans for us to go home for Christmas together, is now talking about she would like to put a sun room off our bedroom, and a green house in the back yard. She has stopped referring to it as "TM94's House" and began using the term "The House".

Now here's my problem. It seems that things are beginning to go my way, at least somewhat. But, now I'm not feeling the same way about her. Part of me doesn't want her anymore. I haven't met anyone else, and I don't want to. But I don't have fun with her anymore. When we go out I don't like to dance with her, I somewhat force myself to. I just don't enjoy her company. I am so confused, I'm not sure why I feel like this. I should be jumping for joy that she is showing SOME signs of wanting to at least try. But, instead I just keep looking forward to the day that she moves out.

Does any of this make sense? Am I just throwing up my self defense walls because I'm afraid of being hurt more? I just feel that the night she spent out was the last straw, and now I don't want her anymore.

You are where you need to be.

Just step back and take a breather. There are a LOT of unmet needs that you have right now and those feelings are branching from there.

Right now, you and she have a chance. Encourage her to go to an IC and see if she's willing to do the EN's questionairre. Ask about MC. You will both need it in order to get through the issues...

Try not to forget that you BOTH had issues and that you know things that she CAN learn. Do you want your family TM? That is what it's all about.

Good to hear from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now here's my problem. It seems that things are beginning to go my way, at least somewhat. But, now I'm not feeling the same way about her. Part of me doesn't want her anymore. I haven't met anyone else, and I don't want to. But I don't have fun with her anymore. When we go out I don't like to dance with her, I somewhat force myself to. I just don't enjoy her company. I am so confused, I'm not sure why I feel like this. I should be jumping for joy that she is showing SOME signs of wanting to at least try. But, instead I just keep looking forward to the day that she moves out.

Does any of this make sense? Am I just throwing up my self defense walls because I'm afraid of being hurt more? I just feel that the night she spent out was the last straw, and now I don't want her anymore.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it makes perfect sense because your W's lack of committment to the M has withdrawn plenty of love units from your LB, and you've detached emotionally to the point of no longer being afraid to be without her.

You might want to consider being open and honest with her, and explain what you said in this post. Because hiding your feelings from her will only further erode whatever love you have for her and she'll continue with the false beleif that things are getting better between the two of you when it's actually just the opposite. Who knows? sharing this info with her may just be what is needed for her to wake up and smell the coffee (sorry I couldn't resist that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Kily,
Funny you mention taking a step back... That's what I just told you in your thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She still doesn't want to go to MC. Do I want my family back? YES! But, I am beginning to feel how she described feeling before. Empty, alone, uncaring, etc. I'm afraid that these feelings won't return. I think they should be there now the way she's acting, but their not. That scares the crap out of me.

Don't remember exactly when this came up, but she said she no longer wants to file, not divorce, not separation, nothing official. I asked her if that meant she wanted to work on things (us) and she said she wasn't sure. She said she still felt she had to leave so she could get to know the new me; she doesn't feel that living together she is able to because she keeps thinking of the old me. She did say "When I do come back you WILL MAKE ME go to MC right?" I told her I thought that was something we needed.

2MCM,
I've told her these things. I told her that all the emotion she shows (cuddling, holding hands, kisses, etc.) are confusing the heck out of me and I can't take it anymore. I told her I feel like a YoYo and I was beginning to loose my feelings for her, and that she needed to do something fast because I didn't want to loose everything I had for her. She agreed and promised she would be out of the house by the end of May. Your right, I'm not afraid of loosing her. Actually, I'm looking forward to her being gone. That scares the heck out of me. I'm afraid those feelings will take over and reconcilliation will not happen because I've closed the door on her.

I remember Mortarman describing his feelings when his wife began to come back. I thought he was nuts for not jumping on the chance to reconcille. Now I believe I understand how he was feeling at that point. My wife has made no solid reconcilliation commitments yet, but it appears she's swinging that way, and now I'm not sure that's what I want.

Well, she just called me (3rd time so far today) and asked if there was anything on here about dating. She said she thought we should have a plan on what were going to do to get to know each other again when we separate. Boy oh boy... I really don't know how to take all of this, I started to feel good and get excited, but I can't let that happen.

So, anyone out there been successful at separation and the dating game? If so how did you do it? It's been a VERY LONG time and I have no idea how this is supposed to work. Am I jumping the gun? She's still in the house for another month and a half. What do we do during that time?

Mortarman, if your lurking around out there could sure use some advise.

TM-

It sounds like the REAL DEAL to me. I think you scared her and she's there.

Step back and watch her without letting you know that you are. Actions will speak volumes. As I said to MM, you will instinctively "KNOW" if she is sincere.

Let her come here and read.

Might be time to consult S. Harley if you can afford it. It may bethe best $ you ever spend.

You are ANGRY. That masks a LOT of what you REALLY feel. The door is open, will you be there for her and take a risk? The worst thing that can happen already did. If you can't love her anymore, then this last chance will let you walk away GUILT free. What do you have to lose?

Kily,
You make it seem so easy. And I've said so many of the same things reading others posts. It's just so different when it's happening to you. I believe she is sincere; she has made no commitments or promises, just that she wants to date and get to know the new me.

I have wanted and prayed for this opportunity for so long, and now that it's here I feel like slamming the door in her face and telling her she now has to live with the biggest mistake of her life. But, I can't do that, I have to at least give it an opportunity and see what happens. Again, my only fear is that I will be unable to Love her again the way I have in the past. Can I ever let myself care so much about a person again?

TM-

You can't stay stuck from fear. You darling, are on your own fence.

You're right, I do make it sound easy. I don't know what the BS feels. I do know that if X decided right now to rebuild, I wouldn't know how I would react.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have wanted and prayed for this opportunity for so long, and now that it's here I feel like slamming the door in her face and telling her she now has to live with the biggest mistake of her life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is essentially what X is doing to me. Look at the person that I am. Would you want to miss out on that type of change if your wife is capable of making it?

Don't worry about being able to love her. Worry about whether or not you can forgive her. If you WANT to love her, then in time, you WILL love her. It is a step-by-step process.

I can't give you the answers. I only know what devastation has plagued my life for the last few years and I can only tell you MY story. Ask yourself if you want to see your child(ren) 1/2 of the time from now unitl they are 19? Do you want to have to deal with another man at their school functions, sports games? Do you want to have to fight over holidays - who gets them and when? OR
Do you want to BUILD a relationship with their mother? Do you want to get past all of the secrets and lies and find the real LOVE that you've always wanted with her? Do you want to teach your kids to stand up for what they believe in, even if it is the hardset thing to do?

Do you want to teach them that it's okay to stand up and admit that you've made mistakes? If you turn their mom away now, the message that you're sending is that owning up to your actions = rejection.

You owe YOURSELF this chance. You went the distance and now, because you are uncomfortable, you want to run. That's exactly what SHE did!

Think about it.

TM,

Kily is exactly right! If you have read the Harley stuff, you will notice that the love bank stuff isnt exclusive to the WS. Believe me...I am fighting this same battle inside myself.

This is the situation when you have been in Plan A for awhile, or have gone to Plan B. You have not crossed over into not wanting the marriage, but you are nolonger on that side of the fence. Kily is right...YOU are now on the fence!

As with the WS, coming off that fence is a leap of faith. It is as scary for you as it is for your WW. I will get to her in a minute. You will want to protect yourself from her, but at the same time, you cannot protect yourself AND move closer to her. At some point, you have to come out of your comfort zone.

The hardest thing for me to learn in our reconciliation is that my wife distrusts me as much as I distrust her. For her to be home is a leap of faith on her part. For me to have her home is a leap of faith of my own.

So, where does that leave you? Right now, as with me, you want to protect yourself. You have gotten yourself to a point where you feel somewhat safe. And now, you are being asked to put your life back in this person's hands. unfortunately, there is NO easy answer here. We as the BS want the WS on their knees begging forgiveness. That rarely happens. While they have made a leap of faith, they are far from fully repentent. That takes time.

Your wife has shown that she doesnt want to leave...but she cannot see how things will work out either. So she wants to move out, and then "date." She is cuddly and affectionate towards you. She wants to dance with you. But you are reserved, and pull back. What message do you think she is getting? She has made a leap of faith to try, and in return, she gets someone that appears at best to not be coming off the fence himself, and at worse is pulling back. Under these conditions, how long do you think she will continue to try?

TM...I have been in the exact same situation that you are. I still am somewhat in that situation. Our situations require two things.

First off, get some help. Professional help. I think it was JustLearning that keeps hammering home that this is not done by amateurs. Use Steve Harley or Jennifer if you can. We are starting to use them again. You two are not close enough yet to be able to talk everything out, to trust each other. You need an intermediary in order to talk to and work things through. Someone that can decifer what the other is doing.

Second, unfortunately is the fact that even though we have carried our relationships over the affair, for a good part of the reconciliation, we will have to carry that also. Our WSs dont know the way out. They have just shown interest in getting out. But it will be very easy for them to duck back into the fog if they get scared. So, you have to continue to "fake it, until you make it."

How do we do that? I'm not sure. It depends on each individual. I have found some coping mechanisms that have allowed me to train myself not to trigger, to keep moving forward, even when she scares me. It is those times of not blowing up that will allow your wife to move a little bit further down the road. With a little more trust.

My advice, and this is coming from someone that is struggling with the same feelings as you (lack of love...a lot of anger, etc), you need to get help and to continue to put your "gameface" on for her. Even though she may be changing, it wont happen overnight. I have begun to realize that the time that my wife finally "gets it" and she is able to pull her weight is still awhile off. It is a slow process.

It is like in war. The war is over, but sometimes, the peace is harder and takes longer to rebuild, than it took to tear it down. So, for the soldier that just fought the war, and now wants to go home, he or she has now realized that their jobs really have only just begun.

In His arms.

Kily,
You hit on the head. No, I don't want to see my children only 1/2 of the time for the rest of their lives. No, I don't want another man in thier lives. Yes, I do want to rebuild my relationship and have the fairy tale perfect marriage. But, at the same time she has not committed to doing that so I don't feel that I can throw myself to the wolves and go full tilt into her latest mood swing with high hopes of that fairy tale.

MM,
Thanks for taking the time, I feel like I'm 1/2 mile behind you in a black out drive watching your cat eyes to see where to turn. I see now how I'm on the fence, and how that may appear to her. But, at the same time, should I committ totally to someone who will not do the same to me? She has expressed an interest in seeing an IC, but will not go to a MC yet. She says she has to get to know me first, to see if she wants to love me again and rebuild our marriage. So, I still see her sitting on the fence too. Although it appears that she's beginning to lean more toward reconcilliation (or at least a 1/2 hearted attempt) she still will not commit to it. I honestly believe that if she would say she wanted to work on it, or if she would agree to MC then I could dive back in, but right now I just can't put myself back through that again.

Does this make sense, or am I just trying to justify my own fence sitting and reluctancy?
Thanks again guys, you keep me grounded.

TM;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for taking the time, I feel like I'm 1/2 mile behind you in a black out drive watching your cat eyes to see where to turn.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just remember...being on point is NO fun! Guess who gets shot first. So, actually, you are in a better situation than me right now!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see now how I'm on the fence, and how that may appear to her. But, at the same time, should I committ totally to someone who will not do the same to me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have, and still am, asking the same questions. But, the answer is: SOMEONE HAS TO. WSs will not fully commit at first. The ones that do are rare. So, it gets back to what many have told me here...give 100% until the marriage is over...all done. Then quit. But, until then, someone has to take the lead, someone is going to have to make all the effort, with very little in return for awhile. Someone is going to have to take the emotional chance. If not, the marriage is doomed. So, unless the BS does it, the marriage is over. I know, I know. Not the best thing you wanted to hear. Me either. But guess what? It is our only option. That is if we still want what we say we want.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has expressed an interest in seeing an IC, but will not go to a MC yet.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably sound reasoning on her part. But, I would suggest that the IC also be your IC...and eventually your MC. Many of her issues have to do with you. So, her IC will need to know things about you and things you know. That is why I suggest the Harleys. Or anyone like them. Tell your wife that while seeing an IC is great, it may be helpful if the IC can get the perspective of you, and see you also on your own. The counselor will eventually bring you into MC together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She says she has to get to know me first, to see if she wants to love me again and rebuild our marriage. So, I still see her sitting on the fence too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just confirms what I wrote above. She doesnt have the answers... and is searching for them. Her current answer is separation and dating. It wont help...but unless she is given an alternative, it is all she sees. You know the answers. You will have to lead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although it appears that she's beginning to lean more toward reconcilliation (or at least a 1/2 hearted attempt) she still will not commit to it. I honestly believe that if she would say she wanted to work on it, or if she would agree to MC then I could dive back in, but right now I just can't put myself back through that again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW how you feel. But unfortunately as I stated above, it will have to be you putting yourself back in it if this will work out. It will be much easier if she doesnt move out. So, decide now if you can reach down and find that inner strength to finish the last two miles of this road march.

In His arms.

TM, remember that Mortar Man quit more than a few times but went back and tried again anyway (after he get hit a few times with a MB 2x4) Your feelings are natural for where you are and what you have done so far.

Remember a few things.

1. She is different than you are. That's why you married her (she's a gal, and they think different than guys,) but it is hard to build things back when you don't understand where she is coming from. What is happening with the two of you is almost a dead ringer for many other WW's that have come back. She won't just turn a switch and be back 100% like you were, she is different.

2. This is partly your fault.
We don't want to dwell on this part except that you will want to cut her some slack and you need a reason. I don't think she was looking for OM as much as she wanted care and protection. Any port in a storm, and she felt the storm.

3. As you continue to offer care and protection, she will feel safety with you. Trust takes time. You are rebuilding trust as much as rebuilding love. THAT IS ON BOTH SIDES. Your issue right not is not so much does she love you, as can you trust her to stick around if you put yourself back into this 100%. I think MM is right that someone has to do it, and since she can't, you need to do it even if you may get hurt.

4. You can do it.
I believe you know you can do the work, you just want proof that it WILL work before you put in the effort. Since you can't have that, and not trying stinks, you may have to do the work anyway.

I hope I don't offend. I am leaning on you pretty hard, because I believe you can do a really good job of this and I want you to expend the maximum amount of effort.
What was that quote?
"Faint hearts never won fair ladies."

BTW, your doubts and fears are valid, you just have to go on anyway.

SS

<small>[ April 23, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

TM,
I may have a different spin on things.

My view of the current situation is this;
Your W got a little scare the other day with the reappearance of your old gonads when you told her in no uncertain terms to G-T-F-O. So in response she starts to lay on the old cuddle with me, dance with me, romance me and we may make it, if you date me routine. Your true feeling is that this is a load of crap and you’re not sure you want to play the game anymore. That’s my view, correct me if I’m wrong.

Lets review some rules of the game here. (Pertinent to you)

1. Marital Recovery cannot start until both partners are committed, simple undeniable fact. Personal Recovery has nothing to do with this.

2. Way back when, I told you it was important to set a time frame because plan A will drain you, as it has. What is your time frame? Stick to it! Kily is right, eventually this thing will swing to the positive side or you will walk guilt free.

3. Plan A never, never, means you have to be a doormat. It means you have to improve yourself, be respectful and put genuine effort into meeting your W’s EN’s, offering care, protection and honesty within “established boundaries.” We often forget the boundaries part you just set some.

4. Eventually if plan A doesn’t work plan B is called for. Never forget the true reason we do these plans. First and foremost to get our spouse to commit to rebuilding the M and equally important to make it so we can hold our head high.

So lets get back to the current situation. Why do feel like this is a load of crap?
IMHO because this is the same crap she spewed out to you on day 1. I want to move out, date, maybe we can make it, maybe not, I like you but don’t love you, can’t commit wishy-washy load of dung. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The problem now is that your starting to believe her, maybe you can’t make it. That’s garbage too my friend, get off the fence it’s dangerous up there, just ask mortar man. Stay firm in your plan A…don’t back off and don’t stand at a distance to see if she starts to come around. Rule # 2

Here is where it gets twisty, time to separate the men from the boys TM. Got your nads back and kinda liked it didn’t you. You got pissed off expressed it and it felt good, didn’t it? IMO anger gets a bum rap, anger is good, it is God given and it has a purpose. Anger tells us something is wrong, we are in danger and something has to change. The downside is that we usually express it with aggression, like telling your W to G-T-F-O. That’s the bad part. Look at the good stuff though, you got angry expressed it and got some positive stuff back, you set a boundary, no more of this staying out until the wee hours of the morning. So how can we learn from this? Channel that TM, use it to establish what your true boundaries are and then express them, put the cards on the table. Rule # 3

Do you really want to date your W?

My take is this, she is not committed she is dabbling, dangling a carrot in front of you. She has her cake and gets to eat it. She wants to move out and break away slowly so it doesn’t hurt you so much, so it doesn’t hurt her so much. Yet truly she believes if you date and things are great she gets to come home, no foul, it showed her how much she really loved you. She might be right, but ask mortar man about what that did to him, how much additional pain and anguish it piled onto an already bleeding heart.

Are you ready to think about Plan B yet? Previously you though it was never an option. Now that you’re pissed what’s your take on it? I ask because I think you gave your W a shot of reality the other day. Maybe it’s time to turn up the heat. I told you before that if and when she moves out you should immediately go into plan B. No dating, no support, no nothing. So she gets a taste of life without old TM, it’s the fundamental reasoning behind Plan B. If you are there, there is nothing wrong with expressing that to her right now. You don’t have to save it for the day she leaves. There is also nothing wrong with telling her you will continue your plan A right up until the day she leaves and start the day she returns. Rule # 4 you’re working towards a commitment.

Don’t misread me here, I’m not an advocate of Plan B, actually see it as a last stitch thing. But if it is in your arsenal there is nothing wrong with expressing it. There’s something to be said for shock and awe.

Lastly I concur it may be time to bring in the big guns and seek a professional.

Good to see you still kickin,
Oz

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: oswald ]</small>

MM,
Yes, I know it&#8217;s no fun being on point, but I have to thank you! It&#8217;s good to see that someone who&#8217;s currently going through the same thing still has the same questions that I have.

The IC that she wants to see is also my IC, and will be our MC if things work out. However, my IC tells me all the time that I need to break away. She says my wife and I love each other, but are not in love with each other. It&#8217;s more like we&#8217;re really really good friends.

We have had a couple of very deep talks the past few days. We have both expressed our fears, desires and emotions. I haven&#8217;t come out and told her that she doesn&#8217;t have to leave, but I&#8217;ve skirted around that the door is still open for her to stay.

SS,
I feel graced by your presence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The past few days she&#8217;s been able more to explain where she&#8217;s coming from, and how she feels. Maybe that&#8217;s because I hit that point and began to have some of the same feelings, I don&#8217;t know.

I know I bear responsibility for our situation as well. I can see now that some of my issues did not allow her to open up and share the way she needed to. I don&#8217;t think she went out looking for anyone else, but as you said she needed care and protection. Both things she said she got from OM. She said he made her feel safe, something she did not feel with me. I don&#8217;t believe she was talking about physical safety, but more so emotional safety.

I&#8217;m pretty thick skinned; you don&#8217;t have to worry about offending me. Nothing you said here was shocking or offending in any way. I appreciate the vote of confidence and frankness that it takes to really drive a point home.

Oz,
Hey, it&#8217;s good to see you again old friend!!!! I&#8217;ve been missing your input. I may need to throw out some more background here, as I said in my first post I had been out for a couple of weeks so I was trying to paraphrase many of the events. She began to come around before our G-T-F-O discussion. It was a couple of days before that she was making plans for us to go home for Christmas as a family, and house plans, etc. When we had our discussion and my gonads returned it didn&#8217;t change over night, but it did speed up her softening attitude.

Do I believe this is all true, or do I think it&#8217;s a load of crap? I honestly am not sure at this point. My first instinct was that she was scared and was grasping at straws. As I said earlier, after several heart to heart conversations I believe I now know where she&#8217;s coming from and why she feels the way she does. This tends to make me believe that it&#8217;s not so much grasping at straws as much as it is her slowly letting down her guard and beginning to trust me again. I could be wrong, have been before.

As for the rules, I have explained that we both need to be committed, but she says she&#8217;s just so afraid right now to make a total commitment. I understand this now, after I gave up it was hard to allow her back in at all, I was afraid of being hurt again.

Timeline: Well&#8230;. Promise not to shoot me, but I still don&#8217;t have one. So far I&#8217;ve just been going with how I feel. As you said I never believed Plan B could be an option for me. That was until I had enough and regrew my &#8220;gonads&#8221; as you so eloquently put it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I had enough and knew I couldn&#8217;t take any more. So, now that I know that feeling I believe I can continue until that feeling returns, at which time I will know it&#8217;s time for Plan B. That also goes into the boundaries rule. We now have established very specific boundaries. Actually, it was her idea and she was the one that apologized and promised never to act that way again.

I know that I will make it without her. I will more than likely fall apart in the beginning, but I will make it with or without her. I am no longer afraid of loosing her. If she leaves she will be the one who looses, not me. I believe she is taking down some of her walls and letting me back inside again. She says she&#8217;s so afraid that I will slip back into the old me that it&#8217;s very hard for her, and I can understand that as I&#8217;m still afraid of slipping back.

Do I want to date my wife? I don&#8217;t know. I know that we both have to get to know each other again, and rebuild our relationship. Do I think we need to separate in order to do that? I really don&#8217;t know. I am afraid that she is just trying to let me down slowly because it will be easier for her. But, then I look at again and I gave her the perfect opportunity to leave when I told her to, and now she doesn&#8217;t really want to. If she does leave will I jump right into Plan B? Boy, that&#8217;s a tough one, I don&#8217;t know. I think I will continue Plan A until I can&#8217;t take it anymore. As I said earlier I know that day can come, much to my surprise!

It was really good hearing from you again Oz, thought maybe you fully retired and were off fishing and sipping brewski&#8217;s on some desert island. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: TM94 ]</small>

TM-

I thought we scared you off. I was really worried about you.

Listen, whatever you do, we back you 100%. I hope you realize that. I certainly understand and respect your fears.

I also understand your W's fears too. There a re a few people on this board that are in tha exact same spot that you are in. I find it really amazing that all at once everyone seems to be going to recovery (except me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Perhaps you can present this in a way that is committed, but has an exit if that is necessary. For her, safety is key to trust...for you, honesty and consistency are key.

Here's what I propose -

Both of you need to sit and sign a POJA. Agree to a SIX month period that you both lock into where you committ to exploring the issues. No moving out during this time frame.

After six months, you both re-evaluate and if it isn't working out, then the big-D.

Truthfully, YOU and SHE do need to date. You need time to get to know each other because neither of you REALLY opened up the way you will now. What she is asking for is not "we need to date (because I'm not sure if I want this)" it's, I'm scared, I want this so bad, I'm terrified that it will not work and it's going to take me time to feel safe again. Dating is my way of gaining that time....

Hugs. I'm really happy that you are where you are.

Kily,
Thanks, I appreciate your words of wisdom as always. I agree we need to get to know each other again, we have both changed so much, and grown apart. But, I honestly have no idea how we're supposed to "date". Any suggestions?

I took the big plunge this morning and I'm not sure how I made out. She was talking about quitting one of her jobs, but couldn't afford to make it without the extra income. I wasn't sure exactly how to take that so I opened up, took a leap of faith and told her that she could quit, and wouldn't have to worry about the $$ because she could stay. She said she couldn't do that. So, I prayed on her "destiny" card and told her to quit, if it was meant for her to move out she would find another job, if it was meant for her to stay she wouldn't; let fate decide.

She didn't care for that too much, but this afternoon she said she wanted to talk about us and what we were going to do. So, I guess we'll see how it works out, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

TM-

You did the RIGHT thing in my book....

My prayers are with you kid...

Also, what did you do when you first met?

Movies, Dinner, dancing, bowling, play pool, boating, concert, picnic on the HOG, hiking, a day at the mall and include hair cuts or facials...

just a few ideas.

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily hit it dead right about dating, I also believe it is about safety.

TM, one of the reasons I haven't spent much time lately on your thread is that you seemed to be doing really well, and you had a lot of good help. I just figured you didn't need me much. I have a lot of faith in your ability to do things the right way.

Because you have read hundreds of posts, you know that your feelings of late are not unusual. You also know that many report real progress after they detatch because the other spouse realizes it's time do do something.

I know it's a struggle, but I still feel you will do it right. You have a lot on the ball.

SS

Kily,
Well, when we first met we were in Junior High School, so we went to games, movies, bummed on her couch, etc. We've been trying (well at least I have) to find some things that we both enjoy to do them together. So far we really haven't found anything. I've tried to get her to go to the gym with me, or ride the bike, but not even a nibble yet. We have gone to the mall a couple of times, and she loves that. But, the nearest mall is over 2 hours away, so that's not the easiest thing to do.

SS,
I appreciate you coming back to my little world. Yes, I know these feelings are normal, and I've seen that when the spouse who's trying so hard finally gives up it seems that the other freaks out and begins to try. I saw the battle Mortarman went through and I feel like now I'm walking in his shoes. So, yes I know everything is normal, and I've asked myself many times in the past what these people were doubting themselves for. Now I know.
Thanks again for the input and words of encouragement.

The other reason she's so set on separation is that she wants me to date other people. I don't know exactly how to take that one, but she wants me to date others and make sure that she's the one I really want. She thinks that I only want her because that's all I know, and that when I realize that someone else will make me happier then I will be truly happy with them, or I will come back to her. This is something she has said from day 1, and has not budged on. So, what does everyone make of that?

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: TM94 ]</small>

TM94,

For what it's worth, my wife and I are seperated and dating. It is actually going extremely well.

As others have suggested, she may just be trying to let you down easy. There was some thought of that on my part when we first entered into our arrangement. However, since then, I have gotten a dose of reality on what it would be like to be alone. I am struggling financially, having trouble keeping up with the domestic chores, missing my kids only having them 1/2 time, and am just plain lonely. She of course, has the same issues. It has been a wake up call for me.

The dates, on the other hand, give us an opportunity to reconnect. Every other Friday, we go out on a date. We take turns choosing what to do and each of us usually tries to think up something more creative than the last time (we are kind of competitive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). Additionally, on the "off" weeks, we have lunch one day a week. And finally, each Wednesday night we get together at the house (without kids) for a talk about how things are going. Our communication skills have improved immensely. I think it might be because we have a limited amount of time to talk, we make it quality. We can't just put it off and say "we'll talk later".

When this started, I really wasn't sure if there was much hope, but I now think that we will be getting back together.

It sounds like your not sure if your going down that path now, but I just wanted to post and let you know that even if it comes to that, all is not lost.