What a crack up when OW believe all the BShi-!
I know for a fact what my FWH told OW because I found all their emails for months that had not been deleted. Months before they actually got together physically.
Let me see now,1) I had a mental problem according to him.
2)I was always a stay at home mom so he would have to support me.
3) he was miserable and unhappy and was going to file divorce.
Oh there was more I'm sure. Just a few of them I put above.
Now, she was advising him how he could divorce me, take everything and give me only half Social security when old enough to draw. That I was not entitled to any of his pension or income otherwise. And he could get our son to move there with him to where she lived in another state. She was going to help wipe out my whole life. LOL
Ok, the truth of these lies.
1) I am not nor ever was mentally ill!
2)I have only been stay at home for last few years due to husband request.
I hold two professional licenses and have owned and ran my own businesses since I was 18!
3)While telling her he was unhappy and leaving me, we were traveling to other states looking at retirement homes to buy. Then decided to keep this home and refi for lower payments, and redecorate. And bought me a new car!
Also, I just had to let her know when I read all the emails that according to CA law, I would get half of everything, and our home. Alimony for life including half his pension, retirement accts, and SS. For life even if I remarried!
Also, that while she was advising on how to steal the assets and move them to her state, he could go to jail as it requires my signature to move anything totaling more than $1,000.
LOL So he was blowing smoke to her big time.
She was so totally stupid not to even look up the community property laws for our state!
It's on the internet!
And the OW was falling for all this? That he was filing and coming to marry her?
Sheesh. Oh yes, I'm almost certain he told her we werent' having a sexual relationship. Um, guess he's like Clinton and needs sex defined. LOL
We were active the whole time I didnt' know he was coming on to her.
If she only knew what he had to say about her after seeing her twice for physical A.
I heard how disappointing it was when she took her nightie off. Fat and rolls of it. then I heard how she had not taken hormones nor had sex with her H in years. So she is atrophied and dried up and couldn't!
Then I heard how bad condition she's in age wise and health wise. Wrinkled way more than her age should be, obese, and rather snobbish which is not in our character to be!
He actually told her of my meds I take that work so well! LOL How must she have felt?
It's like saying that I don't have a problem so why does she? We're same age.
So I sent her a picture of he and I together also after seeing hers.
She had bragged about her girls being great tan and still fairly firm and waiting for him. Girls meaning her breast!
Um, now she's fat but no breast to speak of.
I sent her my pic, current in tight dress, with my 34 F'S showing cleavage well, and my size 6 figure. LOL
Her hair is falling out, while mine is thick and nice. And her eye lashes falling out while mine still are there!
Told her if she's going to advertise her girls, she shoudl know her competition first.
Know what? Still can't see why he went to her, except he knew her in HS and said he was actually blinded by fantasy.
The good thing is I've heard how lucky and blessed he is to have me. How much he loves me and regrets the pain caused to me.
He also told his counselor he'd have been miserable if he'd lost me for her.
Now, OW may believe what they want, but here is the truth of what he told her and how it really was!
He was lying to her as bad as he was me.
he had no intention of divorcing me. For the day I found out, he left her for good. They were on vacation together when i called after finding it all out. He left that day and has never seen her again.
He even made her take call and lie for him that he had left days before to cover for his a--.
That alone is a dead give away that he wasn't wanting to lose me for her!
After all, that was his perfect time and excuse to end it with us if he wanted her. All he had to do was take the phone and tell me he loved and wanted her. In front of her. She knew that moment he had been lying to her all the time just for a fling!
Sad, how some OW/OM really believe all the smoke blown up their butts.
Know your competition first if you want to move in on someones territory, For you may not have the right weapons.
My story and opinion. A's are based on lies all around!
LouLou

Do you think the that OW (OP in general) realize the not very nice things the WS often tell the BS about them? It's a nasty game played by the WS.

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

Good question, Zorwed! Based on my own experience, it's amazing the messages that the OP CHOOSES to absorb and the ones they choose to ignore. When H's OW in Ohio sent me an arrogant email demanding to know what my "vested interest" in my H was, I was livid! That's the arrogance I spoke of earlier! Based on the emails I received from a third party, who was corresponding with OW, and warning her that my WH was, in fact, married and that she should back off, it's evident that she really didn't know and didn't believe it. But, that's not my problem if her feelings were hurt. She had no problem in referring to me to this third person as "some b****" and demanded that this person "produce the wife." She bragged about their "love," claimed they were engaged, etc. When I angrily confronted WH in an angry letter about his "fiancee" and asked whether he intended to invite me to the happy occasion of their wedding, he immediately repudiated OW as a nut, a liar and swore repeatedly that he wasn't about to ruin our marriage over "some b****." He also said some very not-so-flattering things about her.

I would have given anything for Satan's Hag to be a fly on the wall. The only thing that tempered my smugness was the fear and uncertainty of not knowing what he told her, if anything, about me.

Thanx JR and Zorweb. The former OW wanted to know how I know this, well as I said, I have been trying to understand the OW. I have been reading their website for over a year now and have followed some of their stories.

It goes like this. MM promises to leave. D-day, cuts of everything or lays low for a few months and restarts A. 9 out of 10 end the A and OW is left saying why and being extremely hurt by the situation. Some hang on (very low self esteem) and think that MM will leave. Few do, but those who do end up with losts of problems. Few make it. A lot of the OW get their man and then dump him too because they don't want a "liar" in the end.

This is the worst, some of them think it is a competition and have names that make references to winning the prize of the MM. These women boost their self esteem because they believe that by stealing the MM that they are somehow superior to the wife. How far from the truth!

In the end, they get what they deserve. If they get the guy, he's not worth it because he may bail on them too, or he may wonder if she is being faithful to them. If he goes back to the wife, she looses again. It is truely pathetic. Both BS and OW suffer. The BS has history, family, and a marriage based on religon most of the time. The marriage can be stronger after an A as in my case.

I cannot believe what I have learned from this experience.

Just for the record, my father was a WS, I heard his lies too. The OW tried to hurt our family when my father dumped her. Yes, my parents have a good marriage now, and just celebrated their 50th aniv.

New Jersey,

Sometimes the OW believes that the man's wife is not supportive of the man because that is what the man has told them, over and over.

I agree with the others here that have said that the husband tells this to the OW. I am a former WS, and I was involved with a married man for a long time. (4 years!) He often told me things about his wife--good things too I will add---but when he would say she wasn't supportive or this and that, I used to argue with him and point out how he'd told me the opposite. From what I could see, she tolerated things in him that I would NEVER tolerate in anyone. (long trips by himself to other countries, many weekend trips away from their city, calling old female friends just to 'chat', tolerating irresponsible actions) I think all was said to paint her the way he thought I wanted to see her. Actually she sounded like a very nice person who was actually a lot like me. We even had the same major in college, and it's an obscure one! Same profession, too. (never met her, haven't spoken with her, or communicated with her in anyway. A ended last July- so I never will, nor with him again.) I think in some ways I was only the eight year younger version. We even had the same coloring!

At one point after both he and I were separated he talked about his wife so much that it was downright irritating. (I'd think to myself,"I've foolishly left my husband and a LONG marriage for a man who sits and talks about his wife all the time! I knew more about her and her family than he did about mine, I'm sure.) I could tell he still loved her, even though he wouldn't admit it.

Don't know if I've helped, just wanted to give the OP's point of view. I finally ended the A after four years, and my divorce was final literally days later. His wife, btw, had filed for D--but no action was done on his part or hers after that point. AS far as I know, they're still married, and he's moved back to her area. Who knows now!

BTW , I didn't talk about my spouse much during the A. It made me feel so awful. I think I'd compartmentalized the A so much that I didn't want to inject reality.

Take care,
H_P

NJ,

My husband had affairs with 10 OW he’d met on the Internet during the time we were engaged, up to d-day in the 9th month of our marriage. Most of the relationships remained cyber/phone. He had a weekend fling (in person) with one of them and dinner/lunch dates with about 5 of them while he was traveling. He had a planned weeklong rendezvous with one but backed out of it right before it happened. Unfortunately for him I found the emails and contacted the OW. Obviously he was starting to bring them into real life. Why? He said because of the rush of ‘going to the next level’. He was a very ‘broken’ person at the time is the short explanation.’

He told every one of the OW that he was a single, divorced dad with custody of his 3 children (This was even his bio on the AOL/IM account). In the stories he told his OW ( I was his children’s nanny and my son was the kid next door who was over at his house so much it seemed he was just one of his kids. MY HOUSE… the one we built together, before me were married, with MY money was his house. He even gave some of them a virtual-over-the-phone tour of it while she drooled thinking how she was going to make it hers. She was the one who told me about this.

When I first told them that he is married and had 9 other women he was having cyber affairs with they were each shocked. Some of the affairs had been going on for 2.5 years. But over the next few weeks each of them arrived at the same conclusion independently. That he married me for money and to take care of his children and that she was his real ‘true love’. I got emails (and a couple of phone calls) explaining how she felt badly for me but I had to realize that I’d been used. That they had a ‘real’ relationship with him.

And each of them became angry over time because he dropped each of them like a hot potatoes and refused to have any contact with any of them. He eventually sent each of them a no contact letter. … his reason? He did not want to hurt them but they meant nothing to him. He wanted our marriage to work and he knew he had only one chance to make this up to me.

As time went on (I emailed/phoned/chatted with all of them for several months after d-day), some things became obvious. Either they were all brain dead or they knew darn well that he was married and did not care. How does someone have a cyber relationship with a man for 5 months or 2.5 years (or some time in between) and not know he is married or otherwise committed? How when he will not give out his home phone number, his home address, his work email. He only gives out his cell phone, a hotmail email address and the phone number to the latest hotel he is staying at for his work travel? He never sends you any birthday or Christmas gifts.. not even one ‘real’ card.. Only cyber cards? How does a woman believe that a man loves her and they are soul mates when he never made an attempt to meet them in person, introduce her to his friends and family? In the end it turned out that each of them did not care if he was married, after their initial shock, each of them (except one) wanted to continue their affair with him and was furious that he did not.

What my husband did to lie to them and to cheat on me was terrible… one of the worst things a person can do. But as time went on it became obvious that they were playing a game as much as he was. And they were not about to end the game/affair just because he was married.

JazzeyGirl

“I have just one question that since you take the stand of being the OW not once but twice. What makes it okay to date a MM in the mind of the OW?”

Funny I was thinking the exact same thing.. how is tewjtm going to feel about it when he does to her what he did to his wife? He was learned, through her help, that affairs are a very affective way to deal with the problems of marriage. It seems that it’s very likely he will repeat.

I’d like to hear back from her when/if this happens. We’ve had many former OP and WS here who are not BS’s… when the shoe is on the other foot. It seems that they find being a BS as hard to deal with as the BS’s did in their former situation.

As a caveat, I also have met here and in real life many former OP and WS who learned a very hard lesson form their infidelity and would never again engage on any level in an affair.

Tewjtm just strikes me, from her post here, as feeling totally justified and non-remorseful for the harm she engaged in.

I have never said it was "o.k." to date a MM. In fact, I would not advise it. However, it did happen. It has helped me to become the person I am today.

I responded to this thread w/ the sole purpose to share my experiences. Not every MM discusses his W w/ OW, when the MM do discuss W it is not always in an insulting manner, nor, do we blindly believe everything MM tell us.

I am about to marry my FMM. We have lived together for over a year now. I am not a predictor of the future. He may cheat on me. However, if he does it will never be in the way he did before. FMM can not go off for a weekend or two w/out explanation etc.

We have been through a lot to be together. We also had to fight to get him equal time w/ his children. He currently works, 2 jobs, volunteers 1 day a week at my daughter's school, and is assistant coach to my son's basketball team. If he does cheat - I will definately notice as nearly all his time is accounted for.

However, it is not something I worry about. And if he does cheat i will definately tell you all. I have been coming to MB and gloryb forever. I don't post here or there as much because frankly I no longer have the time.

I am respectful at all times here. It is not my desire to offend. I am merely sharing my experiences. tew

Why is it that OW's so often come here to gloat about what a good "father figure" the MM is to their children. If the MM were really a good father, he would never have had an affair, never have left his children, never have devoted any of his energy to illicit pursuits, energy that properly should be devoted to his own children and to his wife. A good father would never even have time for an affair - every moment he was not at work, with the exception of a small amount of time perhaps devoted to civic pursuits, he should have been with his family.

And what makes you think he won't find some other way to carry on an affair, other than staying away all weekend. My H had an affair for months, and was never gone overnight, and only came home past 10 on two occasions. He managed to have the affair on company time, by taking long lunch hours, and by claiming to work overtime - while employed in a profession where overtime is common. His "overtime" included weekend hours, but only about one day every three weeks or so. I was suspicious, but not nearly as suspicious as I would have been had he actually been gone more than he was. I imagine his boss, on the other hand, was suspicious - not to mention very, very annoyed.

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

tewjtm, are you aware only 5% of marriages made from an A last?
Statistics show they don't make it and here you are going into one?
My FWH told OW he was going to divorce and marry her. Soon as I found out, he ran from her to me!
Now, I know for a fact if he'd left me for her, he'd have been cheating on her with me in no time. If I'd let him!
He told me no way did he, could he or would he ever have loved her!
Plus, what are you marrying? A man who cheats! And if he wants to cheat he'll find a way. My husband never missed a beat being home on time. Exactly 40 min drive from work to home and he was always on time! We were together all weekends.
So how did the A start? By internet and phones used from work. Off base at pay phones,etc. He had looked her up on classmates.com from his HS days.
They only had two physical meetings. And the first one was by swearing he had to go to get recertified for his job. Just 8 months before his retirement. I bought it as that's how well they lie! 3 days gone!
I found out on his second trip by snooping and finding the secret emails.
So prepare yourself. Unless you are willing to be tied to him 24/7, he can cheat and get away with it for a while. And he no doubt will!
NO woman is superior to the ex W.
In fact, most aren't equal! Not to hurt you, but it's been proven.
When the thrill wears off, and it will because you'll then be in the same shoes she was, he'll stray.
I would bet my home on it!
You ought to be running as fast as you can in the other direction!
You say right now he has no way as you will know all his time and accounted for. But eventually you'll trust and believe every word he says!
It's human nature.
Jobs change, situations change and he will find a way when he's ready.
If my FWH still worked, i'd be gone because he would have too many ways for contact!
Hope you are preparing for the worst, while hoping for the best. The statistics are not in your favor.
God bless, LouLou

tewjtm - thanks for posting but please understand that nobody is trying to be mean to you but the bottom line is that you have been involved with MM not once but twice. The people on this site are suffering greatly because of A that their spouse are having with people who seem to think it's okay to have A with MM or MW. My WH had an A with a woman who had just been dumped by a MM and went back to his family. It was just a two weeks before she started the A with my H so called looking for a stable life. Affairs are built on lies and as such they eventually end in a lie. My best friend's husband who also had a A was living with his OW for two years and guess what, he eventually left the OW and returned to his W. Do not be deceived into thinking that because he has been living with you for a year that everything is going to be okay between you. He's dishonest and there is nothing that justifies having a A. If he did it once, he will do it again. Overall I have to go back to the word of God which says "God will not be mocked, you reap what you sow". I think that verse says it all - to put it another way - What goes around comes around.

I know a few people who married their OP. So I thought I’d go down the list.

MF divorced her OM after 4 years… he turned out to be an alcoholic and physically abusive. She now regrets abandoning her husband and children. She lost everything. Calls sometimes from her little apartment crying ‘cause she’s all alone.

LB is with her OM and now married 10 years later. Her marriage was the pits. But she says she knows that her affair was WRONG and has suffered for it. Her OM cheated on her repeatedly for the first 4 years they were together. His feeling was that since she’d cheated on her husband (even though with him) she was not to be trusted and not as ‘valuable’. Today they have worked through their problems and seem happy. But she tells me that even now there is sadness to their relationship because of all the pain they caused her husband, her children and each other. I suppose it’s the ‘scarlet letter’ of their life together.

TP had an affair with a married man after she divorced her alcoholic husband. She shamelessly chased him.. to the point of calling his wife and telling her to get the hey out of the way because he was her man now. She and her MM have been married for almost 20 years now. But TP has never been happy, not really. He does not make enough money, he is stricter with her 3 children then she likes. In her eyes he is not good enough for her. So she has always flirted with the other men in her extended family and friends. I know of at least on long-term affair she had on her husband. Today she is a rather bitter person who was ‘robbed’. By the way, the guy she married treats her and her children wonderfully; he loves her and has taken care of her.

BW is the guy TP married. He had an affair with TP in the 7th year of his marriage to K. K was running around with her single friends going to bars and dancing. He was too busy with his martial arts and other hobbies. Their 5-year-old daughter spent most of her time at the grandmother’s. As I said above he married TP. He is ‘happy’ except that his wife and her children constantly put him down. He suffers through with humility, ashamed of what he did to his first wife.

Once TP started calling K to give her details about the affair and tell her to back off from her own husband, K started an affair with some guy she’d met partying. She married him a couple of years later. Now, 20 years later. They have not been very happy. He is emotionally and occasionally physically abusive to her. They go their own way. K will not leave him because she had a daughter with him early on.

In all of these couples the only two who I can say are really soul mates are LB and her husband. But I, and even she, has wondered if all the pain was worth it. Of all them LB is the only one who would have left their first spouse if the affair had not happened.

-- MK has been pursuing her ex-husband who will have nothing to do with her now. I don’t know if she will ever recover.
-- TP is just plain unhappy and feels cheated by life.
-- BW and K are very open about the fact that they made a huge mistake. They still love each other and hurt their daughter. But they cannot turn back the clock.

According to statistics, with only a 3% long-term relationship rate for affairs, my bet is that the above stores are not unusual. Though most affairs to not turn into relationships that last that long.

Then there is GL who cheated on his wife with one woman after another the entire 25 years he was married to E. The year their son turned 18 he left her for his soul mate.. a woman (OW#102) he’d gone out with in high school. OW#102 used call up E to threaten her that if she did not divorce GL OW#102 would kill her. After he married OW#102, OW#101 sued him for sexual discrimination. He was her supervisor at work ( a gov job) for the 6 years of their affair. She was angry because he dumped her after he dumped his wife and he married OW#102. OW#101 was also angry because her husband found out about the long-term affair and dumped her. So she lost her husband, her MM (GL) and her job. She also lost her lawsuit. OW#102 has left her husband for GL so she broke up her family too. With the lawsuit, GL was on leave of absence without pay for a year during the law suite. And he was of course cheating on her with some woman after only a few months of marriage. After about 4 years OW#102 walked out on him with some guy. (Could you follow that? Lol)

I think that the only one who made out in this situation was E who finally got ride of the bum after 25 years of tying to make things work. Last I heard GL, OW#101 and OW#102 are pretty unhappy people. All three of them have gone down hill from there. GL spends a lot of energy whining and trying to get people to make E realize that he still loves her and made a really big mistake. E does not give a hoot and is married to her much younger new husband who adores her and is having the time of her life.

Then there are TC and B. I get a chuckle out of this one every time I think of them. They were married for 8 years when he left her for a woman he’d just started having an affair with. TC promptly filed for divorce and got it. A few weeks after the divorce was final B moved back in with TC, told her that he’d made and mistake and was not going to leave, divorce or no divorce. He stayed for the next 4 years helping her raise her son and get through school. (She graduated with a 4.0 as did her son due to B’s tutoring.) After she graduated from school they remarried and have been together ever since. They got worked through their problems and are very happy today. Another case of being ‘true soul mates’. And this is a case of the WS Plan A’ing the BS. It’s been at least 10 years since their second marriage to each other.

From what I can tell affairs, like divorce, do not solve problems. Instead they just hurt a lot of people and cause more problems.

Another thing I've noticed in almost every case is that after the ‘soul mate’ thing wore the person who had the affair regrets what they did and feels like they ended up with the lesser partner. There is also little trust between the couple. Just my observation in the situations I’ve talked about here.

As long as there are people who feel it’s ok to do anything to get what they want in the short run there will be affairs. As long as there are people who think that the feeling we call ‘initial love’, which is really lust, is more important than family, commitments and children, there will be affairs. These people do not realize that ‘love’ is a long-term thing that matures. If it is nurtured it can remain passionate and wonderful. Unfortunately, most people just are too lazy to do the work.

<small>[ April 29, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

Zor, wow! That was a real interestint post.
And so true of so much of life around us that many aren't aware of.
For the record. My Father had and A when I was just a toddler and my brother was yrs older than I. My mom finally divorced him after he got a STD and tried to force sex on her and give it to her. She fought him off!
He married OW finally. He confided in a cousin that he had made the biggest mistake of his life and regretted until the day he died.
It caused many hardships on my mother and us two kids. He and OW had a home while we went from pillar to post.
At one time, he even had his new wife come to my mom and offer to divorce him so they could remarry. He begged my mother to remarry him.
But it was too late. She couldn't endure anymore of his abuse and the emotional pain.
It's too much to write, but our life would have been so different if this had not happened. Sadly, My brother died an early death of massive heart attack. He was only 45. My dad died at age 59 also.
It's almost laughable to hear OW say they're soul mates, and so in love, And can make each other happy!
What do they think the H and W had when they firt started out?
Same dreams and ambitions!
For most A's even if they end in marriage, when the sex becomes routine and old stuff, the cheater will start looking again. some change partners many, many times!
It's mostly about new sex I think or new partner to get that tingle! And that goes with any long term relatinship because it becomse so familar.
But the sex can still be good so why run off for a newbie when it's going to become old too? LOL
I think of those marriages that last when born of an A, do so only because they have finally found out how stupid they are and just accept their fate. At last, maybe they learn it doesn't do any good to keep looking. It will all turn out the same. A few, very few, may actually be able to sustain the love they had beginning.
LouLou

Lou Lou,

From what I’ve seen, I agree with you that “ those marriages that last when born of an A, do so only because they have finally found out how stupid they are and just accept their fate. At last, maybe they learn it doesn't do any good to keep looking. It will all turn out the same.”

And you it the nail on the head “A few, very few, may actually be able to sustain the love they had beginning.” If a person does not learn the lesson of how to maintain their love, any relationship they have will settle to the same point of disrepair.

We hear all the time that once a cheater, always a cheater. I don’t believe that is a statement that applies to all who have cheated by any means. Many who cheat learn that it was not wise and learn to have a better relationship afterwards. Being able to make it up to the spouse they hurt goes a long way to the healing of the WS. But when a person does not go through that learning and healing process the ‘fog’ can remain for a long time (my observation).

I will but a caveat in here that I do not believe that all marriages are worth saving. It’s something I’ve learned from my own experience. It’s just that infidelity solves nothing and adds more problems. Very often an affair is an exit relationship, meaning it gives the WS the strength and reason to leave their marriage. Once out of the marriage the WS no longer needs the ‘transitional OP’. Why anyone would want to be part of that type of relationship, to be used like that is beyond me. On the other hand they get what they deserve.

[B][/B] Zorweb-perfect!

These people do not realize that ‘love’ is a long-term thing that matures. If it is nurtured it can remain passionate and wonderful. Unfortunately, most people just are too lazy to do the work.

oops-double post-perfect