</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During our discussion Sunday he even commented that I am reverting to the "old" patterns of ignoring his calls...I can't win here because he sees what he WANTS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...

My gut tells me that at least he is aware that this is a situation that he resurrected.

More "comfortable" to him that way. He doesn't have a complaint, so he creates one. He knows he's doing that, deep down.

" No, X, I am not ignoring your calls. When I let you believe that I will take your calls, and then don't, THAT is ignoring you. When I have made it CLEAR that I will NOT take them, I am being honest with you. So....do you wish for me to ignore you, or be honest with you?"

HCII

Hi K,
I vote for continued business like communication regarding DS. To use an intermediary , to me, wouldn't be so good at all. It would be even sadder for your son to see the use of an intermediary, too.

Your communication with your exBF looks like mine with my exH. Except, I add loving messages... He never responds or comments on them, but I feel he needs to be reminded that I love him.

It sounds like you're doing well. Glad that the Samsara is holding out . I don't go out much either, but I wear my good stuff to work. Have to enjoy it somehow!

Take care, GF,
H_P

Hi All-

Cofeeguy-
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your above responses look concise and to the point with no emotional add on's to them, but remember that how he responds to them is beyond your control. Also remember that NC should ALWAYS take a back seat with regards to your child(ren)'s wellbeing </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said and point taken. I guess coming here first is my way of sifting out the REAL issues from the bait...Once again, thanks for the wisdom.

Als-
Yes, you're right....more scraps to keep me where it's comfortable...I'm tired of scraps...it's time for a full course dinner.

I guess for me, I want NC either until I am at indifference or until he is capable of looking inward, willing to make changes, comitted to making those changes with me, and willing to committ to marriage...in that order. I will NOT accept being the fall back girl when his "R" sours with AM. I know it will happen, I just don't want to be in that position.

I want someone that has made a choice to change their lifestyle, not someone that chooses out of desperation, pain, or loss...

Sure, I made bad choices, hurt people, I acknowledge that. I've tried so hard to change myself and make amends though. I know it doesn't erase it, to be honest I don't want it erased...it is a constant reminder to me of exactly how bad life can get...and that you can survive and thrive after devastation.

I know that in his heart, he can make these changes too. I realize that he's afriad...It's so easy to hide behind your anger and pain...I think it's harder to face it and feel it. To work with it until it is no longer a pain but an annoyance...Maybe this is a niave WS view, it's not intended to diminsih the depth of the feeling that pain brings. I just think that it's really difficult to look inward, acknowledge your faults and issues, face the target of your actions and say: I'm sorry, I did this, I hurt you, I hurt myself, I was blinded, I didn't want to see your pain but I saw it every day...please forgive me if you can.

My choice to return to try and rebuild was made with a VERY clear mind. It wasn't out of desperation, it wasn't because OM left....I walked away...I wanted to be different. He needs to get there too or it will NEVER work.

I'm rambling but I hope what I sadi made senswe and didn't offened any BS's out there.

Hi BOO!

I was wondering if you were okay with all of that bad weather in your neck of the woods...

You have an interesting point. I think that this only reiinforces the conclusions that he is keeping himself in pain. Until he WANTS to see it differently, it will always be what I'm NOT doing for him.
Does this mean that he's trying to bait me in the CONFLICT stage instead of accepting that I am openly withdrawing? You're right, he difference NOW is that I am honestly stating my needs, wants, and boundaries...maybe that's why I feel so strong now.

H_P!!!

GF, I miss our long posts!!! Thanks for keeping tabs on me. I'm doing the best that I can with what God gave me...I know that you are too.

I love you dear. Take care of yourself!!!

I'm startign to think about what you're getting me for my birthday... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Quick note to the email:

X did come back with another one. Very cordial...but, he wanted to purcahse a second cookbook and give me a "gift" of the one in my posession, and then asked me WHEN DS had blood drawn when I was very CLEAR in the email that this had not been done yet...Again he asked if I was picking DS up when he KNOWS that it's my night...I think this bugs me the most because there is a SET schedule for days that we have him.

That is a catch 22 because it IS important, but not necessary..overkill and bait in my eyes.

Anyways I've gone on more than I intended...I'm getting stronger thanks to myself, God, and all of you....thanks.

Kily,

I want you to think back to when I went to a full Plan B with my wife back in December. Remember, the kids were living with me. I had to maintain some sort of contact with my wife because of the kids. But what I did was draw boundaries around what I would and would not discuss or do.

It started with what originally was supposed to be a family outing to see Santa. My wife was supposed to come over and we all ride together to the mall. Well, earlier in the day, I had made the decision to go to Plan B. So, when she got to the house, I wasnt there. She called my cell and I told her to meet us at the mall for the pictures. She was furious. And she never came out to the mall.

A few days later, she wanted to talk about Christmas and what we were getting the kids She had already bought some things herself. I went to her apartment to see what she had bought and discuss final lists. This is when she talked about us doing christmas as usual together, and then all of us going to Kentucky together to see her family But she reminded me that it was just for the kids, and not to think we were working on the relationship. she even had thought that I was taking the presents she had bought back with me to put under the family tree. What was my response? I told her that we would be doing Christmas seperately, that her presents would stay here and if she wanted to take the kids to kentucky she could...I wasn't going. She slammed the door in my face and was livid.

It was right after this that she defiantly took the OM's offer to go to Florida and meet his family. I stuck to my guns though, maintaining no contact, except on kids' issues. She would come over to "see" the kids, or call them to say goodnight over the next month. but it was always used as a pretext to talk to me. Before, I would have welcomed this and tried to re-engage her. Which is what her cake eating life wanted. This time, I held my ground (incidently...the first comment my wife made when she decided to come home was that she first wanted to come home when I "stood up to her."). So, when she wanted to talk to me after talking to the kids on the phone, I would listen. As soon as she tried to change the subject from kid related to something else (even as harmless as the weather), I told her that I only wanted to talk about the kids and if she had nothing else kid related, then I needed to go. AND I STUCK TO IT. Several times I hung up on her in mid-conversation because she wanted to push on with whatever she wanted to talk about.

When she would come over, she would spend 10 minutes with the kids, and then come try to find me somewhere else in the house. I found ways to avoid her. I had friends call at certain time so that I was talking to them and didnt have time for her. I even got blunt at times and told her that if she was done being with the kids, she needed to go.

What's the point? JL, ALS and others are right on. Stick to your guns and you dont know what will happen with him. But I do know what will happen with you. You will get stronger, and it will get easier. So much so that in my case, one Sunday night in late January (6 weeks after I started Plan B), my wife showed up at my door and wanted to talk about coming home. even in that conversation, she wanted to cake eat...but she quickly found that I would have none of that. Since that night, we have been on equal footing and she has made every effort to be there for me.

Kily, maybe your X comes back, maybe he doesnt. But you wont know until you force him to live his life as he has chosen. One without kily even as a friend. Stick to your guns. Only talk about kid related stuff. When he diverts to something else, ignore it, walk away...or even turn to him and tell him "when you are ready to discuss our reconciliation, then we can talk. until then, we have nothing to say to each other except about our kid."

I hope this helps. I just see many of the things your X is doing is what my wife was doing. And you are enabling him. Sure, you came out of the fog of your A by yourself. but you are the minority of WSs. Read SAA if you already havent. even when Sue came back to Jon, it was only because her OM had left her. Most often, the WS doesnt come back on their knees. They come back with demands and justification for their actions. It takes time (as I am learning now...I will post on my thread shortly about my current issue) for the WS to sort through everything and get to where you got on your own.

Let me know what you think

In His arms.

Dear Kily,

I have followed your story for a while, but haven't commented on it before. Some of the details I recall are fuzzy, and might be wrong, so please set me straight if I am. Furthermore, I was, once, a betrayed spouse, so I haven't been in your position, and my advice might not be on target.

With those caveats, I suggest that the following factors are the most crucial ones in your situation. (Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems worth that risk to propose a different course of action for you).

(1) You and your former boyfriend were not formally married, but you do share a child.

(2) You had an affair (which you have since ended), and left your boyfriend for the other man. You were gone a long time.

(3) Now that you have ended the affair, and gone through a deep and thoughtful self-examination, you would like to restore your relationship with your former boyfriend.

(4) Your former boyfriend is both attracted to you and frightened of you. He is willing to have you in his life, in much the way divorced parents around the country relate to each other, but he has not promised more. He has another girlfriend now, and she is his primary relationship.

(5) In an attempt to manage the conflicting signals he is sending you, and your deep emotional responses, you have tried to institute a No Contact policy towards him.

I hope I haven't messed up too much in reducing a long and complex part of your life to a few simple statements. If so, please disregard what I have written, since you know your own life much better than I.

However, if I am close to the truth here, then the following conclusions seem inescapable to me, and they differ from those of most people on this board. You might not agree with them either, but I offer them up, as perhaps indicating a path towards growth and happiness for you.

First, whatever the problems were that existed in you relationship with your boyfriend, prior to your affair, you were the one who left. You also seem aware now of how much your actions hurt him.

In some of your letters you indicated that you want him to acknowledge how his own actions contributed to the breakdown of your relationship. Somehow, this statement resonated with me, and I guessed that an important component of your hopes for a future relationship with him involves some absolution for your past, a sharing of responsibility, and mutual forgiveness. However, I don't see anything in this for him. He had his flaws, and these affected you. But it was your actions that ended your relationship, not his, and I don't know why he should dig through the state of your previous relationship, unless he hopes to rebuild a new one with you as his wife.

Second, since you were not formally married, you could not be formally divorced. However, I think that the facts of your situation, the length of time you were separated, and the fact that he was abandoned by you and has not asked to rebuild a relationship with you now, suggest that you should consider yourself divorced.

That conclusion means that the advice of so many betrayed spouses here, who wish their own wayward spouses would try to rebuild a relationship and pursue them, as you are now doing, is not actually very relevent. They (like most of us) are seeing your life through their own hopes and fears.

If, however, you view yourself as having officially 'divorced' your former boyfriend, through your actions at the time of the affair, everything becomes clear.

-- You are no longer intimate partners. This rupture was your choice, and was implemented by you.

-- He does not want to restore an intimate, 'married' relationship with you. This is his right. No wayward spouse is guaranteed a second chance. Some hurts are too deep for people to get over, and that is their right, which should be respected by you.

-- You share a child. That means that you need to talk with your former boyfriend occasionally. You need to send emails. You each need to share information and incidents about your child's life.

Given all this, No Contact seems to me to be completely wrong. People here advise an unfaithful spouse to insitute No Contact with their affair partner, to protect the emotions of their betrayed spouse. Many also advise instituting No Contact with the unfaithful spouse himself, if he refuses to end an affair. But neither of these situations is remotely like yours.

Your former boyfriend has been building a new life, in your absence. He has that right. Though some people might try to cut their formally unfaithful partner completely out of their lives, he has not done this to you.

Why not accept that your intimate relationship is over, and grieve its loss by yourself, and with your friends?

Why not focus on interacting with your former boyfriend as one parent with another, rather than as a woman pursuing (and being rejected by) a man?

Why not recognize that some hurts we cause cannot be fixed? And that, after doing your best to apologize, you should move on with your life.

To me, your posts have read for months as if your own value in life depends on a relationship with your former boyfriend. Just as it seemed that it once depended on your affair partner. And you put all your efforts in both cases to pursuing and winning a man. Could you accept that your relationships with both of them are over, as a painful consequence of the fact that you chose an affair?

Could you focus on yourself, and how you can be happy as Kily? As a single parent, who has work and hobbies and interests to pursue? From my very distant perspective, that seems the course towards happiness for you, not 'No Contact' or intimate contact with your former boyfriend.

I wish you well.

StillTrying

<small>[ May 08, 2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: StillTrying ]</small>

Kily,

I slight hijack here.

stilltrying:

Most of what you said does ring true in kily's case. But I want you to consider, at least in my advice, where she might be going. Sure, she should probably consider herself divorced. but, here's the rub. She can't maintain a friendly relationship with her X, as she has said.

One of the things my wife has said to me since coming home was that it constantly wore on her that I wa serious about NC with her...that we would never be friends apart from our marriage. We have kids. We would have to interact as parents with each other. but that does not mean that my wife had any right to come into my life, when I want NC, and want anything more than interaction about and for the kids. We dont need to talk about the weather, or how our week went. We dont need to support each other. We just need to make decisions concerning our kids. And be Mom and Dad to them.

Some would argue that by being "happy" around the kids, and interacting with each other around them as we would if we were still married would be helpful to the kids. Of course it would. And if we could do that, then in that situation, the couple would still be married! But due to whatever circumstances, their relationship has failed or is failing. And it is a grievous error, I believe, to expect two parents to act any different than what they are feeling.

Some parents divorce and become good friends. But this is not the norm. We fought the British over 200 years ago, and now we are great friends. But, what most divorces resemble is the DMZ in Korea. Sure, no one is shooting at each other anymore...but things arent all lovey-dovey either. There is a relationship based on the reality of the situation.

In my case, if my wife had not come back, I would have maintained NC for the rest of our lives. I would have no need for my wife to be in my life, or a part of it. The only exception to this would be the kids. And in 13 years, when my youngest reaches adulthood, we really wouldnt have to talk at all after that. like I said, some can overcome divorce and maintain a relationship over and above just being parents. but most cannot.

Kily has shown that she cannot. If her X wants to move on...it is his right. She messed up as you said. And I do not think she will argue about that. But too often over this time, she has told us about his actions which bely one of two things:

1. He wants to maintain a friendship with Kily, as a part of his life, over and above her being the mother of his child.

2. Or...he still has interest in her and her pulling away is making him very uncomfortable and will force him off the fence he appears on

Kily has expressed that she cannot do #1. i couldnt either. And that is her right. she can maintain a parental relationship, without being friends or maintaining anything else.

If it is #2, which some signs show that it is, it does kily no good to allow her X to continue to have his new girlfriend AND kily's friendship. He has no reason to come off that fence.

In kily's case, as was mine a few months ago, NC and Plan B is now in order...FOR KILY! If she wants her life back, her X will either be fully part of it, or fully out of it (except for parental issues). either way, the way out of this mess for Kily is through the same door.

As always, this is in my humble opinion.

In His arms.

Dear Mortar Man,

I appreciate your comments, and see where you are going. However, I don't think we can insitute a formal policy of No Contact in most of the uncomfortable human interactions we deal with in life. That approach is so drastic it should be restricted to drastic situations.

(1) To end an affair, No Contact is required to restore the betrayed spouses feeling's of trust that they are no longer second place in their spouses's life. If they were still second place to the other person, then the marriage would still be a farce.

This is clearly not the case for Kily. She left her former boyfriend herself. After a long time, he found a new girl friend, who now occupies the primary relationship in his life. I don't see a hidden agenda here.

If left my wife for another woman, and divorced her, would I have the right to tell my former wife, later on, "I want to rebuild a relationship with you, but I won't talk with you at all until you agree to do so with me?" Doesn't that sound manipulative to you?

Isn't that approach also counterproductive? His relationship with his new girl friend is respectable and above the board. It is open to the world. What right does Kily have to hold it against him? Why should she refuse to speak to him if it continues? And won't she just alienate him further, by making demands that she doesn't have the right to make? (A wife can demand that her husband not be involved with another woman, whereas an acquaintance cannot demand that a friend not be involved with a woman).

(2) A betrayed spouse sometimes institutes a policy of No Contact towards a betrayer. Many on these boards view this as a strategy to manipulate the betrayer, and it certainly does affect their actions. However, I believe it should primarily be a statement about the betrayed spouses self-worth:

"I respect myself to much to interact with you, my husband, as if we had a normal relationship, when you are, in fact, hurting me deeply every minute by continuing to betray our vows. To minimize the pain, I will stop being part of this charade."

But, although Kily might feel hurt that her former boyfriend is in love with someone else, that is her problem, not his, and it came about through her actions, not his. A policy of No Contact in her case doesn't solve anything, since the real question is:

"How does Kily see herself? What does she want for her own life, that does not depend on people who are not intimately connected to her?"

I hope this clarifies my thoughts.

StillTrying

PS - Kily, I feel uncomfortable about the way in which I wrote about you in the third person above, so I will address you directly here. You sound like a remarkable and perceptive woman in many ways. I think you have every prospect for finding happiness, but know that part of that quest involves closure, and I believe that the key to that lies within you, not within your former boyfriend or anyone else.

I wish you well,

StillTrying

Still Trying-

Thanks for your thought provoking thread. Your summary is pretty on par with the deatils. It's funny to see it stripped of all of the emotional stuff, but the reality is that it IS what it IS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, whatever the problems were that existed in you relationship with your boyfriend, prior to your affair, you were the one who left. You also seem aware now of how much your actions hurt him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I left physically...he left me emotionally. We were in a downward spiral for a long time. I can point fingers all day...but the fact remains that my actions were devastating, desperate, and disrespectful. I am aware of the pain and damage that I caused. I know that I hurt him deeply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In some of your letters you indicated that you want him to acknowledge how his own actions contributed to the breakdown of your relationship. Somehow, this statement resonated with me, and I guessed that an important component of your hopes for a future relationship with him involves some absolution for your past, a sharing of responsibility, and mutual forgiveness. However, I don't see anything in this for him. He had his flaws, and these affected you. But it was your actions that ended your relationship, not his , and I don't know why he should dig through the state of your previous relationship, unless he hopes to rebuild a new one with you as his wife.

Second, since you were not formally married, you could not be formally divorced. However, I think that the facts of your situation, the length of time you were separated, and the fact that he was abandoned by you and has not asked to rebuild a relationship with you now, suggest that you should consider yourself divorced. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow...this is HUGE.
I agree with what you're saying here, but strongly want to fight you at the same time. Does that make any sense?

What I put in bold I want to question because it is MY understandung that it takes two people to create the conditions that led to the downward spiral. Am I hiding behind this? Maybe...I think honeslty I got hurt Very badly too but I was the one who had to take the blame for everything because my choices were so awful. My pain doesn't count though because I'm the one that had issues. Is that really fair? No. truthfully, I'm willing to take the fall. It's helped me grow so much already.

So you think I should consider myself divorced? Well I would agree with you. Unfortunately, the fact that we still own a house together and are fighting for custodialship still legally ties us. Technically, I'm not divorced...he doesn't want to settle it. I've been deliberately staying OUT of his "R" with Am...my gripe is that the ties need to be cut. $hit ir get of the pot. I am working on the details and trying to be fair...the law saya that HE is not. Truthfully, it would have been EASIER if we had been married and divorced. It would have been clear cut. My situation makes it very confused and complicated in the eyes of the court.

THe rest I will deal with later becaue I want to give it the room it needs before I address it.

Thanks for your thoughts.

One thing is STANDING OUT and I just have to open my big mouth here:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that approach also counterproductive? His relationship with his new girl friend is respectable and above the board. It is open to the world. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Technically this "New relationship" was based on lies for the first four months. Then he continues to protect me, take care of me, buy me gifts, etc. without HER knowledge....How is that respectable and above the board? He LIED about moving her in to a home we jointly own. Isn't THAT manipulative? Why can't I draw a line when my rights and life are being violated? Does it mean that because I made severely damaging choices in my life that I will have to constantly accept abusive behavior?

Am I unrealistic in wanting either a total commitment to working on our behaviors or nothing??? I'm looking for closure.
I don't NEED a man in my life!

<small>[ May 08, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Dear Kily,

My biases as a former betrayed spouse might be showing here, but I don't think that both parties bear responsibility for the affair.

In my opinion, the responsibility for the affair is 100% that of the betraying spouse, and any apologies that are phrased "I am sorry, ... but ..." ring hollow to me. That you wrote, "I left physically, but he left emotionally" raises a lot of red flags for me, and suggests to me that you are afraid of carrying to full weight of what you did on your own shoulders.

However, I don't think this means that all relationships are fine prior to an affair. There are usually problems, and those problems often involve both spouses. However, the problems can also arise from internal issues each spouse brings to the marriage from their own pasts.

If the two spouses want to rebuild, then I think each must address the pain of the other, and do all they can to alleviate it. I would not advise a former wayward spouse to renew an intimate relationship with a partner who said, "I was perfect before your affair, and your problems and concerns were imaginary. If you hadn't had the affair, we would have continued an idyllic relationshiop."

However, my own observations suggest that all relationships have problems at times, and that these problems can be solved much more easily if one spouse does not betray the other by turning to a third party. I have also read about many cases where the primary issues driving an affair were not flaws in someone's spouse, but internal issues caused by childhood abuse, or the inability to recognize and maintain appropriate boundaries in relationships.

So, from my rather distant and ignorant perspective, I would say that you bear complete responsibility for having an affair, and for ending your relationship with your former boyfriend, and that he bears none.

However, ... that does not mean that you were not hurt in your relationship with him, nor that your pain and loneliness don't count. They matter very much to you, and should also matter to him, if he wants to rebuild a relationship with you.

That said, it seems to me that you need to move on. I would note, though, that you have probably given your former boyfriend the one gift he most wanted and was least able to ask for - to be pursued by you, and to have you ask to come back into his life. That he did not reciprocate is his right, but it does not take away from the gift. I don't know what better restitution a former wayward spouse could offer, but I also believe that it will wear thin if you do not respect his own boundaries and move on.

I wish you well. Few people would have written such a thoughtful and self-examining response to a post like mine, and I expect you know more about yourself and what you need than all the rest of us here put together. Maybe if you stop focusing on your former boyfriend and instead focus on yourself it will all come clear.

StillTrying

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>
X is sending me emails suah as the following:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> a few things:
1. Did DS bring home the cookbook I bought?
2. Do you have his blue swiming bag?
3. I gave him money for a plant sale today. So he'll have some plants to take home. He was excited.
4. I paid for his class pictures, I'll share them with you unless you want to order a duplicate set? He says you have his class picture. I'll order another one.
5. I thought you were going to sign him up for the next round of swimming lessons? They are now sold out, I checked the other day. The next session has sign up on June 9th so he won't be going for a month starting next week.
6. FYI, I gave him a $20 check last week for lunch money so I don't know when he will need money next.
7. Can you fill out the book fair slip with him tonite? I think its do tommorrow.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I deal with this when I've asked for NC?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long are you are sharing parenting, I don't think you really can avoid some communication about it - and email is the safest route.

So I suggest that you reply something like :
1. Yes
2. No.
3. <not a question>
4. I'll take care of it.
5. <not a question>
6. <not a question>
7. Yes.

-AD

Still Trying-

Please note:

I referred to the contributions to the "downward spiral" not the A...the A was 500% my responsibility. I own that and as I've said MANY times..I'm glad that I came through it and have learned what I did. I like who I am today. I can sit alone for hours and simply "be". That could never have happened before all of this. I'm not saying to have an A....I'm saying I turned a really nasty thing into a garden wiwth a lot of fertilizer, weeding, water, and love.

As for moving on....I thought that this is what I was trying to do. I'm trying to do things in a healthy way...responding to your post is that. I am not biased. I listen to everyone...It may hurt...but you have VALID views too.

I don't see how I can remain in his life when there is constant uncertainty on both sides. Isn't it better at some point to let go and walk away? In asking for NC, I'm not trying to punish....I'm trying to give him his freedom from me. I don't want his pursuit. I find it confusing and it gives me false hope. I don't want to be angry at him either but that will continue until the ties are gone and I'm not feeling taken advantaged of.

I'm still not done with you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You've opened some wounds and I am shedding tears, but with tears comes reflection so that isn't a bad thing.

I don't want to go on anymore now, but believe me when I say, I understand completely what my actioins were, where they originated, what was broken, and how it needed to be fixed...

My quest for this "R" was for a lot of reasons.
the two biggest were:

To have a real honest "R" with x. Not the charade that we both created for years.

DS deserves better than either of us gave him to date. I wanted mom and dad in a lovinig, healthy relationship. If we had been able to recover and get married...what a life lesson that would be for him...

Kily,

I think you posted better than I ever could. StillTrying...her issue is not moving on. It is trying to do so in an atmosphere that she can deal with. Her X is constantly trying to maintain more than just a parental relationship. Kily has said emotionally, she can not handle that. I 100% understand that. Might that change in the future? Sure. But at least for now, she cannot deal with her Xs back and forth...hot and cold.

She wants NC so she can get herself together, without false hopes or without the mess that was created hanging over her head. In either case, that requires her X to be out of her life. Since they have a child together, they cannot fully part. But aside from child raising issues, they can part ways.

Her X is showing her no respect by continue to do nothing more than lead her on, as I see it. Either he is doing so because he wants "payback," or he truly does value her friendship but doesnt want anymore, or inside he knows he wants her back but just doesnt know how (and thus cant let go). All three of these are viable, and in reality...only her X knows the answer.

But with these three issues, there seems to be different ways of dealing with them. But in this case, there isnt. There is one way which will accomplish the goal of getting her life back ontrack, whatever that might look like. That way is Plan B and NC.

If he is being cruel, then Plan B will end that. If he wants her friendship and his new girlfriend (cake eater), and Kily cannot handle being JUST his friend, then Plan B will end that situation also. If he really wants her but doesnt know the way back, Plan B will move him off the fence. And Kily doesnt go on with the hurt and charade.

In her case, Plan B and NC are a win-win-win situation. Why? Because no matter what is the truth out of the three scenarios I listed, in Kily's case, the pain stops. He no longer has power or influence over her life. Right now, he continues to try to do so, even though she has expressly told him to move on and leave her alone.

In many cases, you cannot go back in a relationship and be "just friends." I wouldnt have been able with my wife of 10 years. Even for the kids sake. And Kily cannot with her X.

Plan B now is her only alternative that SHE can live with, that allows her to move on with her life, and for her X to get on with his...with or without her.

I understand what you are telling Kily about responsibility. See my latest thread on questions related to this that I have. The issue now is not who is at fault, but what does her x REALLY want. There is only one way to find out now. And there is only one way for Kily to regain control of her life from him. She must move on. That vehicle to do so is Plan B.

In His arms.

I was coming over here to post some stuff, but then the very wise Mortarman came to say the exact stuff I wanted to say, only expressing it much better than I ever could have.

I can tell Kily still has some feelings for her X, that is undeniable, but she is truly in a place where Plan B will work best, because his constant need to sit on the fence or try and keep her in his life are driving her crazy. She doesn't want the back-and-forth anymore. So she is doing what is best for HER.

As for her original A, of course she knows that it was wrong and takes full responsibility. X knows that too. And X has all the right to stick with his new R if that's what he wants. But he doesn't have the right to string Kily along to keep her in his life if he only wants her for a safety net. So she definitely needs to separate herself from this behavior.

Like Mortarman says, whatever the outcome of it, SHE will win.

ALS

Still Trying-

I have read and re-read your posts to me. Now that I've reached a clear headed place, I see a lot of what you are trying to get across.

I think I was really angered by the fact that my situtaion is different because we weren't legally married. Had that one small fact been dfferent, would your answer to me be different? This qiestion doesn't mean that I am not receptive to your point. I'm really curious to your view on it.

Anger is fear though and once I looked at it objectively, I realized that I was threatened by your point of view because it meant I had no RIGHT to try to recover any of this.

I realized that I'm hiding behind that sheild of "just because we werent married...it doesn't mean the tools don't apply". The fact is that if I had lived in any other state, we would be common law married....Again, another shield to protect my fantasy? Perhaps.

I'm really sad to hear that my posts over the last few months scream of dependancy. The fact is that my life is VERY interesting. My goals haven't been "Get X back or I will be empty forever..." It's been about exploring pain, relationship dynamics, humility, and many other human traits. It's been about making myself the BEST person that I can be and trying to offer that to X. If he decides that it's something that he doesn't want, I can accept and have accepted that...I'm just at a point where there has been a dance going on between us that HAS to stop.

If PLAN-B isn't the way, What is?

Maybe you can offer me suggestions that will help this situation. After all, that IS what this thread has been about.

As of this moment, the dynamic tends to be:

X snaps his fingers and I'm expected to jump.
If I don't he holds his "friendship" with me over my head.

A typical quote when things don't go HIS way:
"I thought we could be friends after all is said and done, but it doesn't look like we can be."

What other ways are there to end this cycle?

Dear Kily,

I continue to be deeply impressed by you. I don't know many people who would look at their own anger as a sign to turn inwards for understanding, rather than out. In your posts, you display tremendous wisdom and insight.

All I hoped to do was to open a new way of thinking for you. Clearly you have the tools to explore it and evaluate whether it, or some other approach, best fits your life. The danger I saw was that the forum here often serves only to provide emotional support, whereas it seemed you also needed counsel and different perspectives to consider.

So, with that cautionary note, here are my answers. Make of them what you will. I rather expect (with your skills) that you can weave gold out of this straw.

(1) Do I think that it matters that you were not formally married?

No, I don't think that that lessens the nature of the relationship you once shared with your boyfriend, nor does it lessen the pain of your betrayal.

However, our society has a clear legal standard for when an official marriage is ended - it happens when the divorce is finalized. But we do not have a clear standard for when a common-law relationship has ended. I don't think that the fact that you still own half of your house has any relevance for that question. (Indeed, I believe that some divorced couples still jointly own property, though I expect it is not common).

My take on your situation is that you might well have formally divorced your boyfriend while you were living with the other person, had that step been available. Whether or not you would have done so, he certainly could have interpreted your actions to mean that your relationship was officially over.

This is a gray area, but to me, if you view yourself as having divorced your boyfriend, against his will, when you left and moved in with the other person, then it means you should treat him differently than if you felt you were still 'married' and that he was now having an affair of his own.

And the intensity of your reactions to his girlfriend suggested to me that you might be viewing him as if he were carrying on an affair.

(2) Should you enforce No Contact?

To me, the model for No Contact you are applying is one used by a betrayed spouse. End your relationship with your lover and commit to rebuilding with me, or I will no longer be part of your life.

This approach depends, morally, on the belief that one spouse should not have to share the loyalty of the other with a third person.

But if you are no longer the 'spouse' of your former boyfriend, then you do have to share, just like all of his other friends and acquaintances share as well.

Your approach feels to me (from my distanct and imperfect perspective) as if you are treating him as having betrayed you.

One of the other posters said that your former boyfriend was a 'cake-person', trying to enjoy both of you. Others wrote that he is 'on the fence' and you need to force him off. Perhaps they are right, but isn't it possible that he simply wants to interact with you as a friend, and with his girlfriend as a lover?

(3) How should you act?

I think that you have a very difficult task ahead - setting appropriate boundaries for your relationship with him. Boundaries that let you feel comfortable and respected. If he oversteps the line and presumes too much of you, I would recommend telling him so directly and backing off yourself for a little while, rather than cutting contact all together.

And when he interacts in a healthy and appropriate way (as in his very nice email about your child), respond in kind.

Setting these kinds of boundaries are much more difficult for you than an all-or-nothing approach, but this is the situation you have created, and I think (based on your posts) that you are one of the rare people who might be able to carry it off with grace.

Good luck,

StillTrying

PS - I found three books by Harriet Lerner to be invaluable in helping me ask what my anger meant, and how I should control intimacy and distance in relationships. They are: The Dance of Anger, The Dance of Intimacy, and The Dance of Deception. I don't know if they would be up your alley too, but you might want to try them out.

Still Trying-

Gosh you add such a fresh point of view.

I want to clarify some things just because it matters to me.

1. I never moved in with another person. I lived alone and supported myself the whole time apart. I think this was the KEY for my healing. I had all the time in the world to look inwards and figure it all out.

2. I never FULLY abandoned X - I was sleeping there at least three days a week. I was cake- eating big time, but I never fully left. In fact it wasn't until AFTER my trip that He locked me out. By this time he was sleeping with her.

3. I wanted to come home and we began talking about my return, while he was seeing someone behind my back. Yes I was cake eating, but now, so was he because we WERE intimate at this time.

4. I do feel like I was betrayed. That's the whole problem.

5. The fact that we weren't legally married makes the boundaries really hard to see.

Yes I see what you are getting at with your views. I HAVE read the "Dance of Anger".

I will read the others because I sincerely believe in learning and growing. If I could salvage some sort of friendship with him I would be ecstatic, but boundaries and respect have ALWAYS been a problem for me to set.

Thanks.

Like so many of us here, Kily is in a tough spot that I bet a lot of you can relate to. And unfortuntaely, the idea of no contact, while it does seem to be the recommended solution for cases like this, is tough to imagine at times.

I can see that Kily still has feelings towards her X. In turn, her X still has feelings back for her as well, else he would be keeping in contact as frequently as he has been. However, he's sitting on the fence and doing all he can to keep Kily at arm's length, seems to me whenever he feels her drawing away, he panics and tries to draw her closer again. As if he's always trying to keep her in his life as an option. A sure sign of someone who's not quite willing to let go of their past relationship.

A friendship after breaking up a relationship IS possible, but it is definitely not what happens in the majority of these situations. Perhaps Kily and X will be able to make it work. But I can see at least Kily longs for more than a friendship, and X may possibly want this as well.

NC, as she has been attempting to do, even for a month or two, may help her to draw X one way or another, to find out where she stands in his mind and his heart. He's certainly not going to offer up that information, and she doesn't want to wait forever to find out, either. So I don't think her asking for space in that regard is a bad thing. Like a Plan B, it's sort of a test for X to see if he really wants to live his life without Kily in it.

I think it will be hard for her to do, but it may also be the way to find out how X feels without her having to directly pressure it out of him. We know what he'll SAY anyway. But his actions speak differently.

This is not an easy situation to be in, Kily, and so many of us here who admire you wish we could make it better. But I can see you are on the right track, and know that you are going to handle this the right way.

ALS