BR,

I hope that you are doing well after the health challenges that you have been through. If you ever want information on the natural route, just let me know.

Your input would be greatly appreciated. First here's a mini recap of my situation before I ask any questions:

10/01 Dday

10/01 - 6/02 Plan A, then found out about cocaine

7/02 - 4/03 Detatchment

We own a business together but have been 1200 miles apart since 11/99

2/03 WH's one TRUE friend tried an intervention but WH didn't admit having a problem

WH has been talking about comming home and taking steps to close down business &/or sell it (not likely) and wants to come home. He is starting to be more responsible.

2 weeks ago, I had a session with Steve Harley & this is what we came up with -
Do a short plan A (WH is working on a project 4 hrs away) but be reserved (no expectations)

Then have him read a letter with my stipulations that need to happen before we can rebuild our M. If he doesn't follow (I pick a time frame but don't tell him) then file for DV as Fl (same as NJ) doesn't have legal separation. Steve said that most wives dont' get thier H's sober ( I agree) but because I am a sober alcoholic of 10 + years that it was worth a try and probably would be ther greatest chance for success.

WH came home for Easter (2 days) and was nice to the kids and me.

Then we spent a day and a half together at the project where he was working. We got along good, he put his arm around me (which he hadn't done in a long time) He wanted to do more but stopped right away when I nicely said no. I was playful, confident and over all felt really good about myself.

Now, Here's where I need help -

WH must sever all contact with OW2, stop all drugs / acohol - get into recovery. I plan on giving him choices as to AA, rehab, half way house . Steve said to be mindfull of the wording and let him know that these things must happen before we can work on our M.

I searched you old posts, but can only go back so far- what where your stipulations? What would you do today if anything different or add anything?

Any other suggestions would be helpful.

And yes, I am at the point where I can let WH go with love if he does not chose recovery. It took a while, a lot of help from you and others on this board and alanon.

BR, thanks for all your help!

D.

<small>[ May 29, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: WillGetThruThis ]</small>

Bump bump bump

hi will ~

I've been in the hospital, just got home today. Can I respond to this tomorrow?

BR -

I hope everything is all right. You certainly have had your hands full lately. Tomorrow is fine.

D.

Hi WillGetThruThis,

I know the pain, and the frustration of loving an alcoholic/addict.

I will keep you in my prayers and thoughts. I hope that things get better, either way they will.

Living with the roller coaster is so hard when a loved one is on substances. Sometimes they are themselves, other times not at all.

I encourage you to seek daily help if you can through alanon or the cocainanon- could be wrong on that wording, or cosa, codependents of sf addicts. I have been to all types of meetings, and they are all good to help YOU get to where you need to be in this.

I have my own issues with ultimatums, and am not too sure about the approach with my wh... as he does not respond well... for him it is really the consequence of his actions that helps him choose to change. I am only able to hepl him change so far, by not enabling.

Hugs, Honey

Hugs and Hope and Prayers

WH will be home this weekend and I wanted to have him read this ( or a revised version) then talk about it. Steve suggested doing it in writing. It made sense to me since WH always says to me (about other issues or daily things) " write it down, I do better when I read it"

Honey wrote -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have my own issues with ultimatums, and am not too sure about the approach with my wh... as he does not respond well... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually this is not an ultimatum but a statement of where I am in my life. I want to have a (new)life with this man but I chose not to if he does not do the things that I have written about below.

When we were together recently, I was amazed at the feelings that came up in me for him. The Harley's are right. It was kind of funny because we were at a hotel (he's working on a project out of town) and I was able to be cute and sexy (but not overboard) confident and over all felt really good about me. He noticed. I have taken charge of my own life by doing things with friends, getting a new TV and furniture and generally doing the divorce busters stuff as a way of life. I have also started sailing as part of a race crew & love it.

OK, back to the letter

Here's what I have written to give to WH - Please give input. Steve suggested that I am to be -
supportive, an encourager, caring, concerned & matter of fact. To say -Here’s what I know, here’s what I understand here’s what I would like to do, this is what we can accomplish. Be Non confrontive . Leave the facts in his lap & it’s up to him to do something

Here's the letter

This is from the card you gave me this spring …” I too wish that we could go back in time to those unspoiled moments in our relationship, before the hurt ever touched our hearts, before the doubt ever entered our minds," …

then it goes on to say … "But, I know we can’t go back to those days. I know I can’t erase the mistakes. I can’t take away the questions you must have or the hurt we both feel. But, we are where we are right now…"

WH, you are hurting us way more than you can understand right now

I know that …. You have lived away from home for over 4 years now like you were single
I know about OW2 and practically living with her in (city)
(By the way, she even called me & told me to “leave the man alone so he can be with his woman")
I know about the cocaine and her involvement with that
I know lots of money has been spent on trips, vacation club, casinos, bars and parties. Even OW's credit cards are run up.
I know that many of your friends are very concerned about you even though they did not join (friend).

I made a promise to you and God on our wedding day to love you, in sickness and in health till death do us part. You will always have a special place in my heart no matter what happens to us.

Just like an architect draws up plans, then contractors pour the foundation, and then build the building step by step, our own marriage can take the same path ….

We can draw up our own plans for a new marriage; we can pour a new foundation, and build from the ground up a relationship that makes both of us happy. The end result can be a fabulous building, one where everyone feels comfortable, and looks forward to coming home to and show off to their friends. One built on honesty, trust and God. We can use what we have gone through as a stepping stone to a better relationship. WH, we can do this together.

Here’s what has to happen before we can begin to work on our marriage or before the architect draws up the plans and building is started -

Sever all ties with OW2
Be clean and sober in a recovery program
Close down the (;opaction)operation
Turn over the all finances to me

This is what must to be taken care of to allow me to work on our marriage.
Do you understand what I need?

Love,

BS

PS: Here are some people in recovery that may be able to help – It’s up to you whether you contact any of them or not.

Names – PHONE NUMBERS

-------------------------------------------------

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: WillGetThruThis ]</small>

Honey,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know the pain, and the frustration of loving an alcoholic/addict.

I will keep you in my prayers and thoughts </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks you! You have been in my prayers too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I encourage you to seek daily help if you can through alanon </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alanon is great - it has helped me soooo much. I look back now & can't believe it took me 17 years to get the program! I finally went for me last July because of BR's example ( and urging !)

Recently I saw some alanon's that I hadn't seen in a while and they are amazed at the difference in me! (For the better) They noticed it right away. That made me feel great!

HOney - how have you been? I have been on the DV board mainly just popping into GQ every now and then.

Blessings,

D.

BR -

I hope you are OK. If it's easier to talk on the phone just email me at the address below & I'll send you my 800#. There is no rush, as I will only see WH for a day on Mother's Day & don't want to do anything then. He'll be away for a few days, then back, which will be better timing.

((((((((((((((((((BR)))))))))))))))))))))))

D.

Hi Will ~

I'm fine. I had heart surgery earlier this week to fix a hole in my heart - and I'm doing much better now! Medical technology is so cool - 5 years ago, I would have had to go through open heart surgery, now the procedure is nothing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ok, regarding your situation....

I looked through my hard drive to see if I still had a couple of letters that I gaave to my husband, but I can't' find them right off the bat. I'll keep looking if i get a chance later.

My first impression of your letter is that it was all about him and judgements about him, with some demands at the bottom. You've got to stop being right - which means you've got to drop the blaming or pointing fingers.

Your letter needs to be about you, not about him.

Has he asked to come home? (I don't mean just off hand comments about coming home maybe, and being nice.)

Did you ask him what his plan is to rebuild your trust and repair what he has done?

Has he shown by actions his willingness to take responsilbiity for what he did, and be accountable for his future actions?

Has he shown any remorse?

I think your short plan A should be followed by a letter that simply states what YOU NEED in your life. Not what you need him to do, or how he has to change, but simply what you need in your life.

Compare that with what he is offering - not just with words, but with actions that back it up.

I also don't think you should give that letter to him without running it by Steve. Especially the demand to turn over all finances. That one is a bit tricky.

Also remember, I ended up folding on my demand that my husband be clean and sober. My husband is still very much an active alcoholic.

You see, I had to quit demanding that he change to suit me. I had to decide what I needed, make sure that my husband knew what i needed, but not tell him how to do it.

This hasn't exactly been easy to live with either. I know I did the right thing, but there are times that I really do wish I had decided to keep walking when he didn't seek out recovery.

What I needed from my husband was remorse, responsiblity, accountablity, honesty, and a willingness to follow a mutually agreeable plan for marital recovery. I needed assurance that we had an emotionally and sexually exclusive relationship. I left the "how" up to him. I of course would have loved to have seen him decide that he could only give me that by getting recvoery. Thats not what he did. But the result is that I am married to an alcoholic who for today, does his best to be accountable for all his time, has given up all his privacy, who shares access to all accounts (financial or otherwise), and who does work at meeting my needs, and who still apologizes for his actionsin the past.

Its been a pretty strong recovery and we are definitely in love with each other. Yet...I still deal with alot of unresolved anger, stress and doubts because of his lack of recovery in terms of alcohol.

Anyway I hope some of this helps! And of course you can call me if you want.

HI br -
I hope you are recovering well after your surgury. Advances in medicine just a amaze me. That's good to hear it wasn't a huge thing.

I have been out of town on a project with no internet access.

Thank you for your response to my letter. I need to clarify a few things and get your feedback.

Steve Harley and I worked out the basics the letter was to say ( not the exact wording but he did say to not be condescending, etc.)
I added some things on my own.

Here's the starting point -

Let WH know what I know - about Substances, & OW
Here's what I see as a vision for our M, and this is what has to happen BEFORE we can work on our M.

Steve suggested that he read it while I was there then talk about it. That I would need to put recovery of our M on hold while he works on recovery and to give it a period of time as well as have specific markers to measure if he is doing the deal. The part about turning over the finances was something I added

It sounds like I need to reword what I have written so it reflects where I am, what I need not make demands on him.

To answer your question, he is taking positive action steps lately.

WH let go of the apartment that he had.

WH is being more accountable with the money and co-operating more with what is being spent and on what.

WH has been nicer to me and the kids. While he was on this project, he kept asking for me to come out and bring the kids. (He hasn't wanted us around for a LONG time.)

The first time I went out, boy did WH meet my needs for affection. I felt SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I couldn't believe it - where did all these good feelings come from for this man? It was text book MB - when someone fills your EN's you feel much better about that person.

The next time he had been working 14 hour days 7 days a week. YS came with me. He wanted us to get a separate room but I declined. There was no affection, but YS had a great time with his Dad.

BR, you have been such a great help to me on these boards - thank you!

D.

<small>[ May 16, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: WillGetThruThis ]</small>

Hi Willgetthruthis,

How are you? I went to alanon this am, and probably need another meeting later today.

I admire your strength in working so hard to reconcile with a wh on the outs for 4 yrs... this must be so hard. I admire your commitment.

I am having a hard time, as my wh is pushing buttons today, and last night- he broke some boundaries with me, and now has to show me how insane I am.... WHAT? Actually he seems to be pushing me to lose it by treating me poorly... he is mixing picking up the kids issues/ with being on time, etc. and fair to me in arrangments and threatening me with my belongings being destroyed that he has if I do not do what he says, when what he says is unacceptable to begin with.

He is acting infantile.

I have had lots of hope lately, but the last two days have me today in tears and lack of hope..... b/c I see he has not grown and is very immaturea nd self centered.

Hugs to you, How are you? SOrry for my vent on being under the attack of the drinker.

Honey

Hi BR,

I hope all is well with you. Here's an update -

Spent Mother's Day weekend with WH and YS at the project he was working on. It wasn't like the last time, no affection but then again he had been working 12 - 14 hour days - 7 days a week.

WH has gone back up North to close down the business there and has already moved out of his apartment. He's making preparations to bring the equipment down here.

WH has not contacted any of his party buddies that I know of so far.

Some thoughts from your post -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your letter needs to be about you, not about him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Below is a revised version. What I do need to begin to work on this marriage is for him to be in a recovery program. I guess I need to say that in a non juedgemental way ???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you ask him what his plan is to rebuild your trust and repair what he has done?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I havn't for several months. His response at the time was once business closed up (where he is) that we need to spend time together to see if this M was what I wanted.

At this point, sobriety is a requirement before I can commit to rebuilding this M. I have not addressed any conditions to rebuilding this M, cuz sobriety must come first. When (and if) that happens, then we can address rebuilding our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also remember, I ended up folding on my demand that my husband be clean and sober. My husband is still very much an active alcoholic.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, for me, sobriety is a requirement first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think your short plan A should be followed by a letter that simply states what YOU NEED in your life. Not what you need him to do, or how he has to change, but simply what you need in your life.

Compare that with what he is offering - not just with words, but with actions that back it up.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When he comes down to Florida again, here is the letter that I have put together ( comments welcome)

Dear WH,

You have been a part of the last 28 years of my life. The road we have traveled together, I know has not always been an easy one, but it has been full of countless joys, love, happiness and blessings. We have been each others support emotionally, physically, spiritually and business, in both good times and bad. You were my rock that I needed in my life to give me strength to face whatever life had in store.

I made a promise to you and God on our wedding day to love you, in sickness and in health till death do us part. I loved you the first time I saw you at the TKE house. I loved you when I married you. I loved you when our kids were born, I love you today. You will always have a special place in my heart. You stir something deep down inside my soul like no one else.

I believe in you. I believe in our marriage. I want us to rebuild our marriage. I truly believe we can have a loving, fulfilling marriage based on trust, honesty and mutual respect, where we both feel safe sharing our innermost thoughts, feelings and dreams. One that makes us happy and to be able to meet both of our emotional needs. I believe knowing our mistakes that we can learn from them and with a true commitment, and desire, we can rebuild the love that is still inside both our hearts. Not just for us, but for our kid’s sake as well.

This is from the card you gave me this spring …
” I too wish that we could go back in time to those unspoiled moments in our relationship, before the hurt ever touched our hearts, before the doubt ever entered our minds, …

Then it goes on to say …
“But, I know we can’t go back to those days. I know I can’t erase the mistakes. I can’t take away the questions you must have or the hurt we both feel.”

We are where we are right now… you are hurting us way more than you can understand.

- You have lived away from home for over 4 years now like you were single

- I know about OW2 and practically living with her in LOCATION (By the way, she even called me & told me to “leave the man alone so he can be with his woman)

- I know about the cocaine and her involvement with that

- I know lots of money has been spent on trips, vacation club, casinos, bars and parties. Even Janice’s credit cards are run up.

- I know that many of your friends are very concerned about you even though they did not join FRIEND and BROTHER when they talked to you.

The last time we talked about the state of our marriage, you suggested that when the business it was all wrapped up in Pennsylvania, for us to spend some time together to see if this marriage was what I wanted. Before we can even begin that journey, here’s what I need in order to feel comfortable and willing to work on the restoration of our marriage.

- Sever all ties with OW2 permanently

-Be clean and sober in a recovery program
(What it is and how YOU plan to implement it, is up to you)

Demonstrate these in a credible way

If your hopes are the same as mine it will show in your actions and commitment to your own personal recovery and healing. Only then can I commit to working on recovery of our marriage.

Love,

D.

PS: Here are some names of people in recovery – It’s up to you whether you contact any of them or not.

D – PHONE NUMBERS
B -
C-

------------------------------------------

I am going to run this by one of the male alcoholics in reovery that I know has a similar story.

Any feed back is appreciated!

hi Will, I'm getting ready for work. I just wanted you to know I saw this. I"ll respond tonighit if I can.

BR -

Thanks!
D.

Good Morning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Willgethruthis:

It sure is hard to get through isn't it? Sometimes I am strong, sometimes weak... but really if we rebuild our lives with more friends and new relationships that are Supportive, Kind and Loving... what a change that makes.

I don't know about you, but this whole A thing- and all the blame my still drinking Alcholic wh dumps on me, and beats me with a club with... I am prone to isolating and depression. I am not me. I have gained weight, which I am finally losing again - and I find my motivation getting down in the dumps quite frequently...

But thank goodness... I can find my old self and pull her out. I am a strong, confident , smart, attractive woman... even if drunk wh calls me an old hag, who can't find a new man- could that be b/c I am trying to save our M?

Anyway, sorry to vent on your thread sweetie. I am on this roller-coaster when I talk to someone who has been using, and when my children see him... it is so hard. I want the kids to see their dad, but it makes it so much harder- we can't just shut the door like we could with no kids.

I am just hoping you get through this with yourself coming out on top soon! I know your road has been long. I will keep you in my prayers, and just wanted you to know I am thinking of you.

I have no great wisdom... just support. I too, am getting to the point that I will not allow him back while using, It is scary... but there could be no real sanity with the drinking this exteme...

But then I falter... Well IF, he kept a job, was responsible at home, etc.- then the drinking would be something I could tolerate....

Sadly, WH drinking is out of control. I have lived with it in the past, but nowadays.... he downs 24 beers at one drinking.

Hugs and Hope.

Honey

Bumpity bump

Bump for BR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bump bump

Hi Will, sorry to leave you hainging...

I've just overloaded myself way too much these days and I'm flakin on people right nad left!

Here's what I think about your letter:

How about just saying:

Dear H,

I love you, and always will. I really like the recent changes/developments that I've seen in you lately. It gives me alot of hope for our marriage.

Although I would love to rebuild our marriage, I am not ready right now. I am uncomfortable with your decision to move home. Here's why:

I know about: 1., 2., 3. etc.

I truly believe we can have a loving, fulfilling marriage based on trust, honesty and mutual respect, where we both feel safe sharing our innermost thoughts, feelings and dreams. One that makes us happy and to be able to meet both of our emotional needs. I believe knowing our mistakes that we can learn from them and with a true commitment, and desire, we can rebuild the love that is still inside both our hearts. Not just for us, but for our kid’s sake as well.

The last time we talked about the state of our marriage, you suggested that when the business it was all wrapped up in Pennsylvania, for us to spend some time together to see if this marriage was what I wanted.

I agree, we do need time together. But before I am comfortable taking that step, I need the issues I listed above to be resolved. How do you propose to help rebuild my trust and make me feel safe enough to take that step?

Love, WillGetThruThis

I wouldn't go into all the recovery stuff. He's been there, done that, and KNOWS how to get recovery, right?

If he's ready, he'll know what to do, you don't have to make a list of demands.

His response should be a little more enlightning.

Anyway, this is just my own opinion. Take what you like, leave the rest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />