Heavy sigh....

An update is long overdue, but I only feel like saying anything when I'm angry, and that's not a fair representation of where I am generally. So, yeah, I'm angry now and you can take a lot of this with a huge grain of salt.

*** Small disclaimer: I've become a very irregular poster, although I lurk ALOT. If you want background details, please ask. ****

My anger is always over stuff SHE does. I think a comment this morning summarizes exactly where we are.

W (to D): "I don't know what he meant (referring to me). I can't read him anymore... and it's easier not to try."

Short divergence here--
I don't think it was intended that I hear this conversation (but maybe it was?). My D asked me earlier this week about going to visit her grandad (my father) this weekend. I've been waffling on that issue because he just had a chemo treatment yesterday and will probably feel terrible this weekend. I've been avoiding the emotional can of worms of asking my mom if we could come anyway. I will ask her, even though this might be forcing us on them when they don't want people around, but they might so I should give them the opportunity to choose (even with all the potential guilt issues involved). I hate dealing with these kinds of things...

Back to the original topic.

I'm angry because I want to be WANTED. A year and a half ago, when I was posting regularly and dumping a lot of emotional issues here (for the first time in my life!), I told W about my posting and invited her to read AND respond -- to me (not on the board). Her response was: "No, that'd make it too easy on you"
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

She ignored her chance to learn about me - intentionally.

I've always been the pursuer and she, the evader. Affection, SF... only happen after I initiate, and then only some of the time (rare). She can pick and choose and never has to actually show interest for affection (or SF) to occur. If she never WANTS than she can never be hurt by rejection.

Does this make me feel inadequate?
NO!
IT MAKES ME FEEL LONELY.

When I'm angry (like now) I feel that 15 years of this is enough. By tomorrow (or tonight) I'll calm down and realize that I'll never threaten our 22 year M just because of this issue. But, I'm lonely...

So, there it is - my update.

Jeffers

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: jeffers ]</small>

Hi Jeffers,

I sympathize with you. It must be hell to live in a loveless marriage where the other partner is perfectly content with the status quo. The bad thing is that nothing will change as long as she is content with the situation. I killed off my last marriage doing exactly what your wife is doing. I had no interest whatsoever in my EXH and was perfectly content having him around to fix things, run errands and take out the trash. I filled NONE of his EN's and he was miserable and beaten down for years. So, he left like a bolt of lightening for the first person who came along and met his needs. I was shocked shocked shocked! But, now I am happy that he has someone who was willing to meet his needs. Noone deserves to live a miserable life quiet desperation and unmet needs.

Anyway, the point I am trying to get to, is that you really have 2 choices, one is to stay there and accept the situation as it is. And to accept that you can't change her. You just have to determine if you can live like that and proceed from there. I am sorry it has turned out so bad for you, Jeffers.

MelodyLane,

One of the problems about posting when I'm angry is that the post comes out skewed. I don't take back anything I said, but I'd like to add that I don't feel unloved (at least some of the time anyway.) I sometimes feel like she's punishing me, maybe for an ancient wrong, or a severe character flaw, or ... something??? While she's the generator of the status quo, and has all the power (cuz she wants the least), I don't think she's content with it. Just that she turns away from me, rather than toward me and I'm not chasing after her. She's missing that feeling of being "wanted" right now.

"...was perfectly content having him around to fix things, run errands and take out the trash.

Yikes! At my lowest, sometimes I feel that this is my only role. When I get a burst of energy I do all of these things as well as I can, along with spontaneous affection, etc... usually I get rewarded and some of my needs are filled in return. As long as I can keep this up things are livable. Eventually, things decline to a starvation level... and I get angry.

I see the two choices, and that's why I get angry... I want different choices. ...I hope you're not telling me that I'll have to leave before she gets it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

After all these years together I can see there's a barrier between us that keeps us from getting closer. If we can just get through that barrier things could be much better. There are times when I'm very unhappy, but I have faith that's not the end of the story... so I stick around. I like to believe that I have infinite reserves of faith and energy... lot's of my own personal integrity issues tied up in this.

Thanks, Jeffers

Hi J,

So her making things easier for you is NOT something she does? Does she go out of her way NOT to do so?

Step back and think about it and when you find your answers, figure out how you can show her that this is not right. No more talking.....via actions.

When I get these 'dumb' type of responses from H, I first allow a discussion, when that doesn't work, I resort to illustrations, then examples.

ex: 1/2 filled glass of water, do 1/2 of what he asks (when he thinks it is ok to do only 1/2 a job). Do not wash his clothes or not perform a requested task (when he thinks it is ok NOT to be responsible), etc.

I don't say much, he gets the picture and brings it up, when he is inconvenienced. I wait (patience is the hardest part of these type of lessons) until he makes a statement, then 'calmly' ask why? Play back his statements and act a bit dumb.

Is this cruel? Yes it is. However he is also aware that this is not my first choice. Verbal communication is my first choice and he is aware that already happened. In our case, these tactics work.

Hope you find one that works for you.

take care,
L.

Do you tell her?

Do you tell her the stuff you're afraid to admit to yourself?

Do you let her in?

Do you let yourself in?

When 'waffling' did you say why you were waffling? Did you say why you were reluctant to call your mom? (which I suspect goes deeper than the surface issue).

Come out of hiding to your family, jeffers. Come out of hiding from love.

The love is there. You wouldn't NOT risk a 22 year marriage if it wasn't. But it is mired in history, family baggage, personal issues... you're STUCK and walled IN.

Let yourself out.

It is hard to self-reveal. And, I mean the REAL stuff.

Your wife may not know what to do @ first... but if you keep @ it... ???

We are made to be in relationship... so why is it that when we finally have THAT person, we let fear take over?

I know how angry I was, and how lonely.

My H is reading a book, "The Samson Syndrome," or something like that, by Mark Attebury. I didn't pick it for him. I didn't suggest it. He found it on his own. WOW. I breezed through it last night.... I can't wait 'til he gets to the chapter on "intimacy," 'cause what he is putting into practice from the first couple of chapters is knocking me OUT.

Hugs,
Cali

Sorry for lack of response, I feel like a drive-by poster.

I called my parents Friday afternoon and daughter and I went to see them Fri-Sun. After the weekend away I'm recharged and ready to try again.

Orchid,

I can't remember the last time that we communicated anything significant verbally. The incident I refer to above (about making things too easy for me) occured via email while I was in the Bay area (summer '01 ?). Oh, about a month ago we had a fight where we both said some things... does that count for verbal communication?

All those NOTs sort of confused me.

We haven't had many "daily life" conflicts lately. I do what I'm supposed to (mostly) and I don't bug her about the stuff she does. If I think something important's not getting done, I do it... she get's no complaints from me. I don't make her do things that I think are important. Part of the problem of paying attention to stuff like this is that we don't bump into each other anymore - we're kind of invisible to each other.

Cali,

I'm kinda stuck here... been staring at this for hours.

You can probably guess the answers to all your questions- otherwise this would've been a much different post.

1-4: No, no, no and no.

5: I was unable to explain to my D why I was waffling, but I did make an attempt with my W. Yep, lots of history/family/personal issues here.

I'm back home, ready to try again. My dad is an inspiration to me right now... it took him 75 years to open up... can I learn to do it quicker?

I was raised to be considerate of others (total courtesy!) My mother is a martyr type- she always figures out what others want and then gives it too them, she's happy to take what's left (externally happy, anyway). Of course, you're not allowed to let anyone know you're being the martyr, or they may stop you, or get offended, or try to be martyrs themselves and push the whole situation into gridlock. Hence, martyrs have to silent and invisible, omniscient, so that the right thing always just "happens".

I have trouble shaking this training. Saying "I'm unhappy" to my W is tantamount to saying, "you screwed up, you made me unhappy." And, I don't get a chance to explain further. I have to get it right the first time. All my posts have that feature (except maybe this one) . I try to include so much information that no one can misunderstand me- the origninal post on this thread could easily have been 5 times longer- but it takes forever, hours and hours to get it right. I usually even know which direction the comments are going to head.

But, those are all just excuses!!

One of us has to go first. We're stuck with "I'll go if you go." I'm a follower of Schnarch so I know that kind of intimacy is not going to work. I'm stuck trying to find that first sentence. I want an easy answer... No, I just want to know the answer before I try. What if she doesn't respond in kind? What if she's mean? What if she doesn't respond at all?

I posted this cuz I'm trying to convince myself that this is REALLY important. Important enough to actually do something. I was counting on people to affirm this (and y'all have.)

Cali, ya made me laugh with,

I breezed through it last night...

I breezed through NONE of the reading suggestions you gave me. My guess is that your H ain't breezing this one either.
... well, actually, I breezed through "Mastery of Love" on the THIRD try.

Jeffers

"Hiding From Love"
"Safe People"
"Changes That Heal"

are you tired of my reading suggestions yet?

These made EVERYTHING else make even MORE sense... If you can find a group (usually churches) that are going through them... even better...

Otherwise... they have a syndicated broadcast and a tape group you can join

www.cloudtownsend.com

or

www.newlife.com

I only knew the questions to ask because of these books. Your answers are within you... waiting to be found.

Cali

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

Yesterday was my birthday, so we went to a school function to celebrate, held hands, came home and ate cake. W gave me a phone so we can always keep in touch...

Yeah, life is better now... for a while...

Cali,

Nope, not tired of your suggestions, they've always been extremely helpful and usually very on target. Your reviews of all these books have been pretty good. I'll check them out the next time I'm at the bookstore.

Reader's comments at various sites on the web seem to suggest that "Changes That Heal" might be a good book for me right now.

Take care,

Jeffers

Happy Birthday, jeffers!

Cali