Hi Folks

I am new here, but have been reading for a few weeks and have found it a great help.

The facts
- First felt uneasy early March 03
- Confrontation on March 18th - felt like I was talking to an alien (now I know why!), but was assured it was (a) long term, and (b) purley about us, i.e. marriage not working
- Plan A'd my [censored] off (although didn't realise it at the time). Things a little better, but her still going out a lot.
- Further confrontation in early April, about how she wasn't let me thru to her, still going out etc, me not happy about role of OM. She insists it is just friendship, someone to listen to her, how much he respects me etc,
- Me getting more an more uneasy as evidence is mounting. Continually asking her, but not straight out, i.e. is there more you want to say, do you think it is healthy meeting him so often talking so much etc
- Can't take it any more, see all the lies and ask her straight out on the 18th April. Denial. Total denial. Hours of discussion/argument later finally admits to feeling an emotional attraction but insists that is it.
- In the face of more lies and evidence, finally admits all on the 19th. Happy Easter to me and our daughter (9). In shock. It is late, tell her I want her out of the house the next day.
- Lots of thinking. Devastated for our daughter. Good talk that night. Tell her she can stay in the house, while we resolve matters, but she needs to park OM for this time. She agrees but insists she has to tell him face to face. This kills me, but I don't seem to have much option.
- Contact is continuing. More lies. I'm trying to be understanding but insist there is to be no contact - she can't see what a big deal a few phone calls are.
- We muddle on for a bit, I am doing plan A stuff as best I can and by and large things are not as bad as expected. Still no real progress on where we are going. She is talking 'alien talk' suggesting that she can't ever see us together (but always wants to be friends), can't see either of us living apart from our D. Can't see us selling house etc. Why can't I just 'let her go' - i.e. 'open relationship' under the same roof. Somehow I manage not to laugh or LB - tell her I just can't see it working, but maybe after counselling - I don't want to rule anything in or anything out and want her to do the same.
- Find she has been using other means to contact him and let him contact her that are harder for me to detect. Ask her to leave, which reluctantly she does. Still contact by phone though. Two days later she comes back and wants to move in again. Suggests some things that convince me to give her a chance for a few days at least, not least because of our D, who we are trying to shield from as much as possible for as long as possible.
- She moves in again on 5th May. At her suggestion she rings OM in front of me and tells him that there is to be no contact in either direction until this is sorted out, a few weeks at the very least. Proceeds to smash the phone in rage after making the call. Long argument at the end of which I feel we have just about got there. There will be NC.
- Next day she rings me at work and apologises. Says she has contacted him and understands if I'm mad and want her to move out. Says she wasn't happy and wants to do this properly so she rang him to tell him it was all over - the end. I'm not unhappy obviously.
- Next few days good, no real marriage discussions, just doing things and spending time with each other. Lots of long walks, movies etc
- 10th May, I am ill with a chest infection so confined to house (and bed largely). She wants to go out, so goes shopping. Rings during the day (at dinner time) and says she wants to stay out and meet my sister. Arrives home tipsy and very late. I'm very annoyed - some things don't add up. Big gap in the middle of the day unaccounted for. Don't want to talk so just go to sleep. Get up next day and explain why I am uncomfortable - she needs to help me trust her and lots of her story is hard for me to believe - out of character (original rather than alien character that is!). Reluctantly accept the story, figuring that rebuilding trust is going to take sacrifice from me.
12th May - do some detective work and find that either she is lying to me, or two other people (one of whom is her sister) are, and there is NO reason for other people to lie. Confront her and ask for explanation. She claims they are mistaken or lying and doesn't know why. I ring one person in front of her and say to them what she said. Tell them I don't care what they said earlier - they know the situation, did they lie or is she lying. They insist on their version. So does her sister. Can't take any more. Ask her to leave again. Tell her we can't live together anymore and have to sort this out from under separate roofs.
- Next two days I minimise all contact with her and write what is in effect a plan B letter, although I talk about a week of no contact initially. Give this to her sister (where she is staying) on Wednesday 14th May. Follow it through - no contact, arrangements for daughter done through sister and SIL.
- Get call from SIL last night - she has gone to meet OM to finish it completely for ever. 'Really means it' this time. Wants to try to work at relationship apparently. I reply that I will have difficulty believing it but am willing to talk to her today.

Now, this is where I need you guys advice. When and how do I let her back in the house. SIL thinks I should play tough for a while. Reestablish communication, but wait a few days at the very least before bringing her home. I kinda agree, but do want to encourage her and not let her slip. On the other hand, have been bitten several times already for being trusting and am reluctant to make it too easy for her.

Further complications are that our D doesn't 'know' anything is up, although I am sure she has her suspicions - we have just made various excuses for the total of 6/7 days in the last month that Mummy is not staying at home (still sees her and is at the house every day though). Most of our families don't know anything other than we have some problems are working on them, but it is getting harder not talk to them as they want to help and are confused. Anything more than a few days and I feel I will have to tell people something, but if this is for real, I don't want to tell people something they don't need to know.

Confused :-(

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Salerio ]</small>

i think after all she has done she needs to prove herself to you. i would not let her back until she has done that.(and i am not talking a few days!) as far as your daughter-just let her know you two have something to work out.

as far as family-tell them thanks for the support, but we want to keep it private. if there is anything i think you can do to help-i'll call you.

good luck-its boundry setting time!

Since you are somewhat familiar with the MB concepts, I'd like to suggest that you set non-negotiable boundaries, NOT ultimatums, that are a MUST for her to follow if there is any chance for her to remain your W.

1.One boundary is obviously NEVER to contact the OM again, and if he contacts her, she should tell you ASAP. This above all other boundaries, is the most essential for marital recovery because WITHOUT IT THERE IS NO HOPE FOR MARITAL RECOVERY. Ask her, eye to eye, to be totally honest with you if she truly beleives that she can meet this condition because if she is not sure that she can, then it may be best to remain separated until she is absolutely and positively sure that she can. False recoveries are poison to marital rebuilding.

2.Counseling with marriage saving oriented professionals like the Harley's. Their counseling may be not be cheap, but it is a lot, lot cheaper than paying for divorce attorneys. And besides BOTH of you can't afford to beleive that you won't need the services of a professional that can help taylor a marital plan of recovery to follow.

Remember that part of plan A is to AVOID ALL LOVE BUSTERS:

1.Selfish Demands: Who wants to live with a dictator?
2.Disrespectful judgements: Who wants to live with a critic?
3.Angry Outbursts: Who wants to live with a time bomb?
4.Dishonesty: Who wants to live with a liar?
5.Annoying Habits: Who wants to live with a dripping faucet?
6.Independent Behavior: Who wants to live with an inconsiderate jerk?

So do your best to AVOID ALL LOVE BUSTERS and keep us posted.

Agree with TMCM, the biggest mistake I see here [other than BS's leaving their homes] is BS' who take the WS back prematurely without setting boundaries. It is devastating to the BS.

From What Are Plan A and Plan B?
by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. "

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1.One boundary is obviously NEVER to contact the OM again, and if he contacts her, she should tell you ASAP. Ask her, eye to eye, to be totally honest with you if she truly beleives that she can meet this condition because if she is not sure that she can, then it may be best to remain separated until she is absolutely and positively sure that she can. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We had a good talk today, but she didn't initially want to talk about whether she had taken this NC step. She is still vacillating I believe. At the end of our talk before she left, she said that she had actually told him this, just didn't trust herself and was finding it very hard...'please give me time'

My current thinking is to keep her out of the house until she can honestly commit to this. I don't think I should do the full plan B, just not meet her needs. I will be cordial, civil etc, just not engage in conversations or discussions. I know plan A says I should meet her needs, but I feel that she won't grasp the reality unless I withold - maybe I should go full plan B? That will be hard with having our daughter in the middle and the counselling taking place. I do feel she is close to 'breaking'

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2.Counseling with marriage saving oriented professionals like the Harley's. Their counseling may be not be cheap, but it is a lot, lot cheaper than paying for divorce attorneys. And besides BOTH of you can't afford to beleive that you won't need the services of a professional that can help taylor a marital plan of recovery to follow.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I initiated contact with a (male) counsellor, who I have seen twice and she has seen once. She has also started seing a (female) counsellor in the same practice, having seen her once so far and agreed a weekly meeting for the moment. The gender of the counsellor seemed important to her - is this common?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Remember that part of plan A is to AVOID ALL LOVE BUSTERS:
1.Selfish Demands: Who wants to live with a dictator?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I have managed this, or at least doing well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
2.Disrespectful judgements: Who wants to live with a critic?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By and large am managing here to, although I do have to bite my tongue when F*&kface is mentioned, have let slip a few choice remarks about him ;-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
3.Angry Outbursts: Who wants to live with a time bomb?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never really been much of a problem for me and have done well here I think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
4.Dishonesty: Who wants to live with a liar?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't but I have been :-( Feel guilty about all my detective work and snooping, not all of which I have revealed, but I think that is somewhat different - no?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
5.Annoying Habits: Who wants to live with a dripping faucet?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">working on these, but hard to know how well I am doing. What is really an annoying habit and what is an excuse to justify her behaviour?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
6.Independent Behavior: Who wants to live with an inconsiderate jerk?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This has probably been a problem if I'm honest, but not so much an issue now, as really only three things occupying my time: working at the relationship, working with my daughter and trying to take care of me and make me the best I can be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So do your best to AVOID ALL LOVE BUSTERS and keep us posted.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am trying, thanks for all the support guys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't but I have been :-( Feel guilty about all my detective work and snooping, not all of which I have revealed, but I think that is somewhat different - no?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please don't feel guilty about this; you shouldn't. You had a responsibility - and still do - to snoop to discover facts that were being withheld from you. No one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind you back and you have an obligation to PROTECT yourself and your daughter from harm. It's important that you continue to do this when appropriate and until trust is restored.

well guess what... I don't feel guilty any more!

Summary:

She called my cell phone today (told me later she was surprised I answered). Based on what (she had asked) her sister to tell me last night, I told her she could come over to the house if she wanted to talk - she did. We talked, as I said above, and it was positive to some degree, although she said she still feels at a crossroads - unable to decide whether to separate or try to make things work. Doesn't want to talk about OM role in all of this. Eventually discussion is winding down. I pay a quick visit to the shop to get some groceries, before I come back to make dinner - she is invited to stay. I leave her to spend some time with our D.
I return, we have dinner, and a good (and emotional) talk before she leaves. She tells me during this time what I said above - she had actually met him the night before to tell him it was all over, but she was just 'scared of herself', and didn't want me hanging on it if she wasn't sure she could do it (fog talk me thinks).

Now, I'm online writing this, and while here decide to check the cell phone records. Guess what - she called him, from our house, right before dinner, just as I had nipped out to the shop.

So much for No contact :-(

Now I feel angry and betrayed. Can I ever believe what she says again. I am wondering now if I shouldn't go full plan B?
Any thoughts?

SALERIO,

Here is my advice...

Tread carefully on these grounds of power shifts in relationship in which infidelity has occurred...

keep your eye on the big prize of a solid, mutually intimate and respectful marriage...

This time period appears so difficult to me...
BS having all these really painful emotions/thoughts...
WS feeling so overwhelmed that the easiest path is to just withdraw and retreat..

It takes a dance of great skill, compassion, and tough love...

someone recently posted a thought about the WS needing to do everything and kiss butt to the BS...and sadly those words made me cringe...good relationships are not about butt kissing and power....I would rather be alone than expect my WS to kiss butt...to me that is just as much as a fantasy as an affair...

I mean this in no way to belittle her responsibility in creating this chaos..nor to belittle your emotions...it just some advice to tread lightly....

trust must exist in a healthy relationship....and is earned...but it also must be given freely from the WS as something they value as well...

toomuchcoffeeman gives great wisdom on this....

so that is part of my advice...

the next part is know that setting the boundary of no contact even though often viewed as some controlling manipulation of the BS is poppycock...

It is nothing but insanity to be told that accepting a third party in marriage even as friends should be OK....

Stand by that....

BUT!! love those buts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I would have you consider modified plan a..
set your boundary...no contact...
but then think about inviting her to activities with you and your daughter...
out to dinner one night next week...NO relationship talk...just you and daughter and her having a good time...
or out somewhere...park, sports game etc...

Let her come over to spend time with daughter...be pleasant and upbeat...a little distant or busy with getting on with things...
show her the reality of her choices and what she stands to lose...

tell her things that she isn't expecting to hear from you...
that you hope she is sleeping well and taking care of her health...
that you are worried about her...because you do care about her...
she's expecting anger/distance/rejection...
those things though help feed the alien fog mind into thinking things aren't salvagable...

some time seeing the real reality is seeing the family unit at it's best...but then being forced to leave...
thanks for stopping over to have icecream with us....but perhaps you should leave now that daughter is asleep....type of views of what she could lose...by her own actions....

much peace to you and your home...
ARK

Ark

thanks for the kind words.

I think you are right. Tread lightly is the order of the day. I think I have been doing this anyhow.

Agree that expecting butt-kissing is a fantasy - I'm not there.

Have been thinking about doing many of the things you suggest - that is in many ways the status quo.

I actually think the rational part of her brain (maybe 2% at the moment!!) is telling her she needs to have NC and make some effort at saving/building our relationship. It is the emotional part that is the problem.

One idea I had earlier was to invite her to do something with me (not with our D) next week, kind of surprise her with a theater ticket or somesuch and see what she would say - again no relationship talk, just a night out.

The roots of our problems (such as they were) that I can see are based around recreational companionship - which is where f*&kface was able to fill a need. Gallingly, because he was a friend of mine originally and seemed to be in a perfectly happy relationship, I suppressed 'gut feelings' when he was available for her as a companion for the odd social outing (where we couldn't get a sitter).

this is a need that he was able to fill, but I filled the others, with the recent exception of SF (don't know exactly what has gone on there). I'm still the one providing the family support, the sounding board for the job worries, the cooking, the financial security etc.

F*&face is 30 yo (I am 32, She is 34), lives with his mother (since leaving his gf last month - stayed in her house), has no job, no car. Intelligent but lazy. Bar stool philosopher, but nothing behind it. Basically a sponger with the emotional and intellectual maturity of the average college freshman. Do I sound bitter? ;-)

I do believe she is fence-sitting at the moment. She gets to live like a single person to a large degree and hasn't really had to sacrifice anything so far. The only 'difficulty' she has encountered relates to the extra commute she has to her job from her sisters house. She still unloads to me (when we talk) about how her day is, whats up at work, etc

What I'm thinking is the f*&kface won't be able to do this as well as me. His advantage is no responsibilities so he can go out when it suits. Mine is our house and D, and all that I do for her. If I withdraw all that emotional support and offer instead occasional nights out, it kinda turns the tables. Does this even make any sense?

I suppose where I'm caught really is that my wife doesn't see the reality of the consequences of her continuing the A. She can't/won't decide on which road she wants (separation/reconciliation). The counsellor has said to me that he has rarely seen a woman of her age and experience who was so emotionally immature. I feel I need to wake her up to this reality with some tough love. Working against that is that I know she can be headstrong and I don't want to push her away totally. I want her to know what she is (potentially) losing.

Plan A seems in some ways to not wake her up to the reality, Plan B seems to push her away too much. Am I just being too soft?

I do 100% believe that at some point in the future she will regret what she has done and wish she could come back. What I have to decide/find out is how aggressive I need to be in forcing that epiphany. Is it possible to go too fast with someone like this?

As long as she is having an affair Plan A will only enable her to carry on the affair. She will wake up only when she sees that you are ready to move on without her.

Tomaz,

With all due respect Plan A is not about enabling an affair...it is a road map with some detours and room for fine tuning that assists the BS in finding a footing and getting a grip on a flood of emotions....

It is a key element of marriage builders principles...

Salerio,

I would advise you to think about setting a boundary with the SIL and not using her as a source of information....

Your wife needs to speak for herself...and sometimes involving the WS's family backfires in great damage...
this does not have to be done in an unkind manner....but more so in a kind way to let the SIL know that you value her investment in her sister and you and do not want to put her in an uncomfortable position...

on the other hand there is the option of exposing the affair ...a principle that is recommended...
search for WATs post...
On revealing the affair to the light of day...
lots of good stuff...

Well, I finally called into the Harley program and spoke to the man himself and he said "As far as exposing affairs, I think that anything short of putting it on the evening news is appropriate".

I know it is probably a big LB for anybody's WS, BUT, Dr. Harley is unequivocal on exposing the affair/bringing it to the light of day. He said to me that it helps bring reality faster. (thanks unsure heart)

this takes some long and hard thinking...but mull it over...

And also you may consider letting the OP know...
tricky at best...calls for great restraint on your part...
lots will advise against...others will say go for it...

since he was your friend the betrayal is duplicate.

something worthy of individual debate and reflection

Plan B needs to be followed by a plan A...
shutting her out and off is what is expected...what she doesn't expect is for you to show some level of care and concern...
negative actions will make the OP look "good" and you "bad"...

What you want to lay down is a path that shows belief in overcoming this....

It is way to easy for the WS to wallow in what pain they caused...but human nature calls for all of us to move away from pain....
many WS say...look at all I've caused and retreat...

avoidance is human nature...

ARK

Ark

thanks. I think you are right here. She wants to help, but can't fix what we need to fix ourselves. She is just very upset that her twin sister is behaving this way and compromising her (i.e. my wifes) relationship with our family and extended family. I'm not really using her as a source of information though, more as a friend to listen to me and to try and support her sister (hard as it is). I have less contact with the other sister where Wife is staying at present, but she is there for me anytime I want to talk and also feels very upset at what is going on.

I would advise you to think about setting a boundary with the SIL and not using her as a source of information....

Your wife needs to speak for herself...and sometimes involving the WS's family backfires in great damage...
this does not have to be done in an unkind manner....but more so in a kind way to let the SIL know that you value her investment in her sister and you and do not want to put her in an uncomfortable position...

on the other hand there is the option of exposing the affair ...a principle that is recommended...
search for WATs post...
On revealing the affair to the light of day...
lots of good stuff...

Yes I have been giving this a lot of thought. Last night her Twin Sister told me she and her husband wanted to contact OM. I was unsure, but today I almost feel like I should let them if they want.
OM's brother is a friend of mine, who, only last Friday invited me to his house for dinner to help get away from things for a bit. He is very supportive of me and us getting our marriage back together. He doesn't approve of what his brother is doing, and has told him so, but his brother is still his brother. I respect that and his determination to maintain a friendship and support for me.
OM lives at home with his mother and sister. His sister I know reasonably well and see regularly. I could easily tell both of these.
We have a fair few mutual friends also, who I could consider telling, but what holds me back is that if (or should I say when - I hope) we get things back together, I don't want to make that process (recovery) more difficult than it already is.

I know it is probably a big LB for anybody's WS, BUT, Dr. Harley is unequivocal on exposing the affair/bringing it to the light of day. He said to me that it helps bring reality faster. (thanks unsure heart)

that is what I feel I need to do. I know most people suffer the fog, I just think it is in my wifes nature to have it worse than most. Even last night as she was leaving she was begging me not to tell my parents (with whom she has had a good relationship till recently). She is asking me for time and patience - I just see it that she won't make the hard decision, she wants someone to wave a magic wand for her.

And also you may consider letting the OP know...
tricky at best...calls for great restraint on your part...
lots will advise against...others will say go for it...

My counsellor suggested that I might consider this - just confronting him briefly and telling him to get the f*&k out of my familys life or I'd break his legs!
I certainly have no intention of having a dialogue with him or giving him a chance to give me his 'speech to the jury'
My only concerns here are:
1)he may portray any meeting in a negative way to my wife which makes me look the bad guy
2) He is going away for the month of June during which time contact will be difficult to impossible - I don't want to prevent or jeapordise this trip
3)His former GF who he dumped because of this, now knows the truth (we have been in touch with each other) and is meeting him this week for 'answers'

since he was your friend the betrayal is duplicate.

Yes. But I can honestly say that if the A was definitely over I wouldn't give him another thought. I have a cold contemptuous hate for him, but no more. No great desire to kill him or make him a martyr. Just don't ever wish to see or hear from him ever again and have no grief whatsoever about loss of the friendship.

something worthy of individual debate and reflection

Plan B needs to be followed by a plan A...
shutting her out and off is what is expected...what she doesn't expect is for you to show some level of care and concern...
negative actions will make the OP look "good" and you "bad"...
What you want to lay down is a path that shows belief in overcoming this....

I think this is good advice. I will look to provide only those needs which are easy for OM to provide (i.e. recreational companship). U have a good support structure from my sister, friends and her sisters. I will be cordial to her but no relationship talk. She knows the pathway back - I have made that very clear. I will be SuperDad (think I'm doing well here anyhow - but will get even better) and involve her also in some family outings, but show her the door after a pleasant day at the zoo, park, movies etc.

Thanks for all the help. Feeling a bit stronger now.

Salerio, here's an excerpt from Dr Harley's What Are Plan A And Plan B. In particular, take note of the words in bold.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands.These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds a lot like the avoidance of Love Busters and the establishment of boundaries by the BS and agreed to by the WS, doesn't it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs AFTER THE AFFAIR HAS ENDED.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This makes a lot of sense because a lot of BS's find that they can not meet their WS's EN's for two reasons:

1.The WS has not or has been reluctant to take the EN's questionaire (see my signature bellow for the EN link). And without knowing exactly what those EN's are, the BS is practically shooting in the dark.

2.If the OP is meeting one or more of the top EN's of the WS, then it's unrealistic for the BS to expect the WS to give him/her a chance to do it as well. There is no incentive to allow the BS because the OP is already doing it.

So don't worry so much about meeting her EN's while the A is going on, there will plenty of time do meet those needs AFTEER she finally agrees to end the A and abide by ALL the boundaries you establish.

Another thing to remember is that another reason why many A's self destruct is because the WS and the OP start to Love Bust each other. Their love busting starts injecting a toxic dose of reality into the fantasy world of their A. Eventually the WS realizes that the OP is NOT who s/he though s/he was.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope this helps to clarify a few things for you.

<small>[ May 18, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I'm now full of self-doubt

The current situation is that my W is staying with her sister (me having asked her to leave because of continuing contact with OM).

I'm a mess. I miss her so much. I just want the old her back. Today I booked theater tickets for Thursday night for us. I told her and she accepted (I think) while she was at the house today - she picked up our D from school.

she is seeing her counsellor tomorrow and told me last week that she will be talking about how best to break the news to our D. I will be talking to counsellor tomorrow about the same issue. She now seems to be reluctant to do this tomorrow and wants to wait till the weekend. I feel we owe our D some explanation as she is asking questions about why Mom is staying so long with her sister.

I am now feeling major guilt (I think). I am wondering if I plan-A-ed long enough. I tried, but her continued contact with OM made me feel like she was fence-sitting and I felt it best to force the situation by asking her to move out. This did precipitate movement, albeit with a few relapses. I am wondering now if I ask her back (on the understanding of NC) will that be a retrogade step - am I just being weak and needy?

I'm so confused. How do I balance showing her what she is missing and what we could (and did) have together, without her cake-eating? Have I moved too fast in throwing her out.

I love her and just can't bear to be without her. I am losing it today thinking of things without her - e.g. Christmas, birthdays, family occasions etc.

an update

I sent her a text message telling her I love her last night before going to bed.

She rang this morning on her way to work - she had a book our D was looking for and was wondering if it was ok if she dropped in with it. I said sure.

When she got in she gave me a hug and thanked me for the text.

I offered her a cup of tea, she accepted and then ended up staying for breakfast - it was nice. She gave me another hug before leaving.

Will see her later after her counselling session - we have agreed to talk about how to break (some) news to our D. I want to do it soon, as she has been asking questions and Mom has been out of the house for about 8 of the last 12 days.

Will report later on how things go. Suggested to W that she stay over if we do tell our D, do people think this is a good idea? I think it would be good for our D to have us both there to support her and maybe good for W to see the full consequences of her actions?

If we decide to tell our D at the weekend (rather than have her going into school next day with this burden), should I have W stay over in the meantime?

It would probably help WW see the consequences of her actions if she is not allowed to run away from distraught daughter after WW devastates D's world.

Assuming you do decide to tell D, let WW answer the hard questions but don't allow WW's version settle in if you do not agree with it. Don't let "protecting the children" be a ironic copout for WW.

I probably wouldn't let WW sleep over. Allow her to face the consequences and get a taste of what leaving her daughter is like. A huge contributor to As is the failure to predict the future accurately and this would serve as a glipse of the future.

Good luck finding the right balance between that and minimizing the damage to daughter. It can be tough to be objective in this instance.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

feeling really low right now.

Had WW over earlier. She had been to counsellor, where one of the main topics was to be advice on how to break news to our D. My counsellor was supposed to call me on the phone with some advice here. She arrived 'home', but wasn't really armed with what she/we needed. My counsellor didn't phone either. Based on that and the fact that our D has a school outing tomorrow which she is really looking forward to, we decided to wait till tomorrow evening to break the news and plan carefully what we need to say.

WW wanted to stay the night (as had been the plan if we broke the news) as she was 'really tired' but I said no. We had an ok conversation about the relationship and the future earlier, where at least I got to put what I was thinking, even though she says nothing has changed for her (more of that later).

We parted on good terms - she agreed to go to the theater with me on Thursday and to a family outing on Saturday - bowling. she gave me several hugs and even kissed me on the lips as she left - first time in maybe 6 or seven weeks she has done so. My heart lifted, but I tried not to get too excited.

An hour or so after she left I sent her a text message telling her to 'know that I love her and that we will get there'.

Get a phone call from her sister 30 mins ago. Knew that WW had an emotional phone conversation with her other sis earlier - she (WW) told me that her sis was very upset and pissed-off with her and she didn't know why. Now I know why. It appears that last weekend when her sis was away and she (WW) was staying in sis's house, she had OM over to stay the weekend, including sleeping in sis's bed, drinking a bottle of whisky which sis had bought as a present. Sis is really pissed off that her house and hospitality are being abused. Can't say that I blame her.

Now for how I feel: Rationally I know I shouldn't be any more upset. I'm not stupid and can imagine what has happened in the past. However being confronted with very specific details has really hurt. Not just that, but the fact that we actually had a very good talk on Sat evening before she left, during which time she actually apologised for the hurt she had caused me, for her selfishness and told me she knew what she had to do and just needed time. Oh yes, and also that she had told him it was all over the previous night.

now I know that she phoned him from here on sat while I was buying food to make us a nice family dinner, and then left here to spend the weekend with him. It makes me sick.

What do I do now? I was in some sort of quasi plan A where I was not LB-ing, and was making an effort to fill her needs while not having her under this roof. I'm so confused. One part of me thinks that if she was staying here she couldn't do what she did, but another says that that just helps her avoid reality. I feel like I should tell everybody now - her mother, my family, friends, OM's sister and mother (who he lives with). I feel like I should go plan B. I just don't know.

Jeez, I thought I was actually getting stronger and now I feel like a boxer on the ropes again.

Shame is a powerful incentive to change one's behaviour. In my opinion, you should notify everyone who knows your wife and the OM what is going on. Once it is out in the open the affair becomes dirty and sleazy. She has to see the consequences of her actions before she will change. Dr. Harley suggests that Plan B usually must be implemented before reconciliation can occur. Focus on yourself and remove yourself from her drama.

latest update

she rang this morning saying her sis was upset and they had had a good talk and 'straightened' things out a little, and that she (WW) was taking the day off work.

I told her that her other sis had rung me last night and told me why the sis was annoyed, and I could understand that. It got a bit emotional and I told her that this limbo was torturing me, especially her ongoing (Emotional and physical) relationship with OM. I told her she needed to stop talking about being 'at the crossroads' and doing one thing or the other - either cutting him off and trying to work on us (with all the help can get and 150% effort guaranteed from me), or cut me off and put me out of my misery and letting us both begin to move on. More fog talk and I ended up telling her she needed to sort her life out and stop torturing us both and I hung up. LB I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
40 mins later I get a text message saying 'can we talk today sometime. I need help from you'. We had already arranged for her to come over today so we could discuss telling our D. Now neither of us are going to work today, but I wonder what this is about.

I call her back and say that I think we have only two things to talk about - either the process for recovery, or how we tell D and we are doing the latter anyhow. If it is the former then she will have all the help I can give and all I can garner.
she then tells me that nothing has changed for her (or between us) and that she just needs to talk to me and me to listen. I tell her that I think most of what needs to be said has been said and that she needs to make a decision. She said she knows, but it is hard. I tell her that is de facto almost making the decision by continuing the relationship as that is putting us down the separation route and she needs to admit that to herself. She says she is trying to end it. I tell her she isn't really - ask about recent phone calls and meetings - really have to force some truth out. End up asking her when she last F*&ked him and she hung up. Another LB I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I called her back and apologised for speaking to her like that. She said it was ok. She will be here in about 1 hour and I don't know what to say. Do I just sit and listen to the same old same old. I can't really see that there is much to say until she makes a decision?

Her Sis and BIL are telling me that she is probably trying to avoid telling our D and/or looking to come back, with two subtexts - her sis who is currently accomodating her wants her out for the duration of this weekend as her BF who has been away two weeks is home. That and the fact that OM is supposedly away for all of June (I have this info from his family too).

I am really torn right now. On one hand I wonder should I let her back and try more (some?) plan A and just put up with whatever happens. On the other I think she is just using me and that I need to bring her to reality first. Maybe I can hybridise by letting her home but telling our D why she was away and telling all friends and family about the A.

Any help, especially in the next hour <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , much appreciated.

Sal.

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Salerio ]</small>

ok, latest update - it is a long one - sorry!

She came over yesterday - neither of us went to work and we talked for about 2 hours before D came home. We agreed on what we were going to say and when. We also talked about 'us' - lots of fog talk about how it was not about OM at all (he is apparently irrelevant, but 'of course he has an influence' - Go figure that one out!). She even claimed that she had called him that morning and 'called it all off'. Where have I heard that before!
I was being rational and taking that approach to the discussion. She finally seemed to have come to some sort of point where she could agree to going down the separation route (talking it slowly). She talked about how she feels she 'should' try and reconcile, but that is not what she 'wants'. She talks about 'feeling at zero' with regard to our relationship and not seeing that the ingredients are there. I said to her that a lot of people undoubltedy 'felt at zero', but without knowing about what sort of process/roadmap was involved and what professional and other help was available, it was impossible to say the ingredients weren't there. I told her she needed to decide for herself - if F*&face (used his real name to her of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - No LB here) was her ideal future then to go that route, if he wasn't then she should put him aside so as not to confuse the picture. If it was truly about US, then what did she have to lose by trying the reconciliation route for a set period of time, e.g. 1 year. She said what about all the downside of the reconciliation - like what I replied? There is hard work, lots of it, but it means that at the end you either have a relationship tending to the ideal, or you have explored the issue, found out much more about yourselves, learned new tools for life and can leave with no what-ifs, hopefully leaving behind a friendship-based relationship. She agreed that she has nothing to lose, but says she still feels at zero (foggy more like it I think) and doesn't want to. My parting shot (not too much of LB I hope) was that at least we were out of limbo and could both begin to move on with our lives - and that the reconciliation road was still there and open if and when we both wanted to follow it. She wanted to know how I could be so calm about it having been so upset and emotional over the previous weeks, and I replied that it was because the limbo was over and because I felt I had done everything I could and I could now begin to move on with no regrets.

Just before I left (to collect D from school) she said she wished I could talk to X (a separated male friend of ours with two kids, although she has known him longer and knows him better than me) so that I would know she is not mad and has felt this way for a long time. She says she told him how she felt (didn't feel) about me and our relationship two years ago. I asked what he said. Apparently that she needed to talk to me and had to be honest about the way she felt (sounds like good advice!). I asked her why she hadn't talked to me or anyone else since - more fog talk (didn't want to hurt me, was afriad of the consequences....). She would have a phone conversation with this person maybe once every two or three months and we have visited each others families maybe once each over the last 4/5 years (He lives in another country). She told me she had discussed it with him since, and he always asked if she had told me. I asked her why he had not talked to me, or to someone else (e.g. her twin to whom he is also close). ' Oh he has his own troubles and couldn't be running our relationship too'. Running it - one phone call was all I was wondering about!

Then she dropped it - I thought I had feelings for him too. I know I said, you mentioned that to me years ago, but we had discussed it and agreed it as a kind of crush/superficial attraction. But I said it to him when I told him about us she replied.

Bingo - so now I know why he didn't talk to me or to someone else. What is wrong with her. Is she just not able to keep her legs closed (emotionally)?

Have to admit to LB-ing here. I said no wonder he didn't talk. Why didn't you talk? What did you expect to come out of that conversation with him - you might as well just have laid on the table and said please take me. I said I felt used for the last few years if that was the way she felt, used and very hurt. And that if that was the person she was, then maybe in some very painful, tortuous way she was doing me a favour by walking away. At this stage I was crying so I walked out to compose myself. I came back and apologised and explained how emotionally confused I felt. I still felt the same love for her, but confused with all sorts of feelings of grief and anger and fear, and that I still wanted us to to try and reconcile if and when she was willing to do so.

Anyhow, picked our D up and brought her home. The plan was to let her play with her friends till after dinner, at which stage we would tell her we were going out (so that we wouldn't be interrupted by her friends calling). That left a few hours, so I left WW with D (and D's friends probably due to call) and went out. I called my MIL from the cellphone and put her in picture. Then I called to my parents house. My grandmother had taken ill and was in the hospital with my mother, but my dad was there. They have had a month of very little contact with me during which time they only knew that we were having some problems and that we were discussing them with outside help. I told my dad everything, and he filled my mother in later that night. For the moment my grandmother is hanging in there.

I came back and before I made dinner and we sat down, I told WW that I had told my MIL (her Mother) and my parents. She flipped about me telling her Mother, and during her venting brought up how mad she was at how I was dragging people into this, like Z (FU*^faces former long term GF who I informed about this after he had dumped her). I was accused of betrayal and going behind her back (glorious irony huh!). I told her that I had told only people that I needed to tell for me/us and people who I felt had a right to know. I wasn't telling anyone for the sake of it, or to hurt her, and that for people who were going to find it out anyhow, it might as well be sooner and might as well be from me.

At dinner WW prompted me towards the end to start and I ended up being the one who did most of the talking. God it was awful. Our D was so upset - not in the screaming kind of way, but just that look deep in her eyes where you know a dream has been shattered. It broke my heart, and among her tears were a lot of my own (although I tried to hold it in as best as possible) and a few of WW. We told her that Mom would be staying with sisters for another few weeks while we tried to sort things out (didn't say what things were) and that we would both be talking and trying to fix things during this time. We re-assured her that it wasn't her fault, that she didn't need to hide or be ashamed and that she could talk to us or to anyone else about it. We obviously reassured her of both of our love for her and that wouldn't change and how she would still see or talk to either or both of us when she wanted. The questions were heartbreaking - how long has this being going on, why aren't you getting on, what is it about, who else knows, when will it be fixed, how long will mummy be staying in sis's house. Will it be for ever. Promise it won't? She then called me aside and asked me was it because Mom was smoking again. She has a million and one more questions in her - I can see that, and maybe is afraid to ask or is just confused.

We got a video to watch together and some ice cream and did that, where she seemed to take her mind off it for a bit. Bedtime was quite straightforward, although when I went in to kiss her good night, she was sobbing softly into the pillow. I did my best to comfort her, but no more questions.

I went back downstairs for a bit, during which time she went to WW and asked why I was so upset and why Dad was crying now when she had never seen him cry before. What was going on. She asked why Mom couldn't just stay in the house in 'her room' and get a TV for there so she just didn't have to talk to me.

Just before I went to bed I get a text message from WW (from upstairs!!) thanking me for dinner and letting her stay. I went up to talk to her and she was getting a little angry. 'I never agreed' to move out she said, I need to be here in the house for our D. I explained very camly that I had wanted her in the house, and still do but she had chosen the alternative. I didn't choose not to be here she shouted. I replied that we had discussed this and I had given her every chance and opportunity to stay here under one small non-negotiable condition. She couldn't/wouldn't do that so she had to leave - effectively her choice. I told her politely that these decisions had been made and I didn't want to talk about them any more at this point, certainly not in a loud argument at 11:30pm.

We went to bed (separately of course!) and talked briefly this morning before WW went to work. Same issue - she wants to be in this house. She even suggested I move out for the weekend! I explained that that wasn't happening and that she could see our D as much as she wanted, but if she was in this house it was as my guest and she only stayed if invited.

Now are there any conditions that people think I should let her back in the house on a temporary basis (maybe to work plan A) short of the full conditions for a reconciliation (e.g. NC, committment to a process, plan in place), or should I continue my current stance and try to 'plan A from a distance'. My gut feeling is the latter, but my only reservation is it seems to have awaken strong maternal feelings in WW again (or maybe that is just looking for a more convenient roof over her head?) and that if I play 'hardball' she will start down the legal route - painful and expensive for both us, and risky for me. Any thoughts from the wise souls here?