You did fine in re-emphasizing the conditions under which she would be allowed to return to the house. I would also like to add, that if you allow her to come back, without any of the conditions you gave her first being met, the one harmed the most would be your D (her hopes and dreams of the two of you reuniting, would be set up for a big drop in the future). So for the wellbeing of all involved (even your WW's) continue standing firm.

thanks coffeeman

have continued standing firm. Will post an update about todays events and developments later, but overall feel that today had more positives than negatives. I feel I am getting more organised in my life and its good to have family support now that they are clued in. Will be telling some friends the situation over the next few days and that should broaden the support network more.

I think it made a big difference in my relationship to stay in PLAN A as long as possible. This was recommended to me by Steve H. and folks on this site. A good PLAN A seems to pave the way for PLAN B since I think my WS is really missing me now and can't think of me as being a bad person. He continues to not be confident that MY PLAN A changes won't last but I haven't changed and am still improving.

I would PLAN A longer since she wants to stay at home. My WS always wanted to leave and did despite MY GOOD PLAN A.

Go back and read the advice I received in January by searching by my name. The folks here were wonderful in helping me to stay focused on my PLAN.

This is just my opinion. It seems like you have not been in PLAN A long enough.

I'm slightly confused about the advice I'm getting about plan A.

My understanding is/was that it involves the following:

1) No LB-ing
2) Setting of boundaries of what is and is not acceptable.
3) Making clear conditions for reconciliation, i.e. NC etc
4) Making WS face consequences of actions
5) Working on self

In my case my boundary is that for her to live in the house the OM has to be dropped and we have to have moved towards reconciliation (e.g. NC letter done, plan of action in place etc).

I think TMCM point is very relevant - if I let her back now (without the implementation of the above), then everyone loses. However, if she really pushes it far enough I don't know that I can physically stop her staying. I could never physically hurt her and don't know that I would be able to actually push her out the door if she refused point blank to go. Legally speaking it would do me no favours at all either, even threatening it (to physically push her out the door if I have to) might cause me problems. I don't think I have a legal right to change the locks either or anything like that (and not sure if I want to).

Anyhow, if my understanding of plan A is correct, I think I can continue with it even if I have asked her to leave the house?

general update:

I stayed at home D yesterday, did some things together. She seemed ok in general but a little clingy. Did notice that she stayed in bed for a long while after waking in the morning - normally she is up as soon as she wakes.

Was doing stuff around the house, and was mowing the lawn when WW arrived 'home'. Exchanged greetings and things seemed friendly enough. Finished doing garden stuff about 20 mins later during which time WW was talking to D, at least some of the time. Said a few words to each other - not much more than pleasantries, during which time she told me how tired she was - she hadn't really slept well. Finished tidying up and went upstairs - she was having a lie down in 'her room'. Was a bit peeved (I don't feel that the house is hers to just use for a rest etc on her way to her sis), but didn't say anything. Was going to go downstairs to be quiet and let her rest, and then caught myself. Why should I change my plans? I had been planning to do a workout on the rowing machine and then have a shower. So I did. This meant she couldn't nap, so I was talking to her a little during this time. I asked if she still wanted to go to the theater with me that night. She said ok, but she would need to stay as she was too tired to drive out to sis's house afterwards. I said no, she couldn't stay so I would cancel. Went about my business and had my shower.

When I came down she said she 'wanted some answers'. Like how long 'this ****' is going to go on, i.e. her not staying in the house. I tried to explain as patiently as possible that it was her choice and I couldn't have her there unless she met the conditions we had talked about previously. She was the one who wanted to separate and that meant not living in the same house - ergo one of us moved out, and I didn't see why that should be me. She lost it then and was letting me have it - it was her home, her stuff was her, I had no right, I was bullying her etc. I kept pretty calm for most of it, and stressed that it was her choice to go this route - I wanted to reconcile, or at least try, and if she would take that direction I'd love to have her in the house. There was no rational response from her really, just about how it was unfair on her and our D, how she wanted to stay until 'we sorted something out'. I replied that it was her move there - I wasn't going anywhere, she wanted to separate so she could organise a place for herself and that I would never compromise her relationship with D, or restrict her access. I told her too that I didn't want her using the house as a resting point or service station - if she wanted to spend time with our D fine, otherwise please leave. This produced a few expletives and more accusations of bullying and unreasonable behaviour. I just said I wasn't going to talk with her while she was shouting like this and went upstairs. She followed.

Who says I should have to move out was her next question - I turned it round - who wouldn't say that, who would say that I should? I had no intention of leaving the house and if she wanted me out, she could have her day in court and get an order to get me out - go get a lawyer. That isn't what I want she said - I don't want to go to a lawyer (Fog talk surely - she is really messed up!)

The temperature was rising so I left the house for a bit. When I got back she smiled at me and was friendly again. She called me into another room and wanted to hug me. I let her and she wanted me to hug her back. It was upsetting for me (visibly so) but I did. She told me that she loved me and that she had a funny way of showing it (what the hell is that about!!).

I told her that I knew we had a lot to talk about and to resolve, but I hated when we did it the way we did earlier and I was sorry if I was disrespectful during that. She stopped me and asked me not to apologise that I really shouldn't have to. Can't remember what else she said, but basically it amounted to 'if anyone should be sorry, its me'.

She left about an hour later, with a very prolonged goodbye to both me and our D. That panned out ok, cos I was able to be quite together about it, and our D was in the middle of her favourite cartoon and wasn't too engaged in the goodbye. This would undermine WW's argument about how D needs her staying over - of course it would be better, but she needs love and attention from both of us, and if we are separating - that is what her new way of life will be. Eventually she went, and as she was driving out, D was making a big deal of waving out the window etc. Hopefully that injected some reality.

She has arranged to take D out today and we are going bowling tomorrow afternoon. Will see how things pan out.

Thanks for 'listenting'!

I THINK Steve H. would consider asking her to leave the house during PLAN A to be a DEMAND which is a huge LB. PLAN A in my understanding involves negotiating an end to the A. I guess I really don't know all your particulars. Asking her to leave the house at this time seems more like PLAN B. You negotiate to work with her to come up with a plan to end the A during PLAN A. My WS would not do this and subsequently left. However, there was the benefit of all the time with me in the house while I was doing MY PLAN (as Steve called it). MY PLAN involved working on myself to be the best that I can be. I guess that was to prepare me for this stage because I certainly am a lot stronger than I was in the early stages when I was desperate and pleading. Like I said before, I was definitely even counseled here to sleep in the same bed with my WS. Rejection, asking him to leave during this stage although he wanted to leave would have been a huge LB. He tells me now how important and surprising my attitude was. Although he did not let me know, my changes made it difficult for him not to feel guilty about leaving.

Search for WAT'S GUIDELINES on this site. WAT is WORTH A TRY. HE WAS MY MAIN COACH. I have not seen him around lately. It would sure be great for you if you could get his opinion. Also MELODY LANE was a salvation for me during the early stages.

Hang in there but don't move too quick. They kept telling me to take it SLOW. Time is on your side.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks for the advice Mimi

The salient details are probably that the first 'bombshell' was 18th March when WW announced to me that she thought the marriage was more or less over. This is shortly after (2-3 weeks max in so far as I can tell) the A began. 19th April was when, following direct questions and very strong evidence, including discovered lies, that she admitted A. 3rd May was when I first asked to move out - that only lasted 2 days, before I let her back (NC was agreed). 12th May I asked her to leave again, because of onging contact and more lies. Effectively was in plan A without realising it from 18th March till 3rd May at least. I still feel I am in plan A to all intents and purposes.

She was claiming to be undecided as to what to do till two days ago, at which point she said she wants to separate. However, she seems unwilling to progress this, or to really appreciate the implications - she has never asked me to leave (I wouldn't!) and she still talks about staying in the house. She is very scattered on the whole thing.

My vote continues to be for PLAN A for you. The goal is for you to NEGOTIATE with her an ending to the A, not to DEMAND that she do it your way and on your terms. That's a major LB, speaking as a woman. You want to come across now as gentle and kind, understanding how difficult this must be for her. MB recommends PLAN A for 6 months. I would try to figure out what HER NEEDS are that went unmet and make YOUR PLAN to be the best husband and father you can be. She is not wanting to leave. Your PLAN A thus far is working. I wouldn't push her out. You are so lucky. My WS was deadset on leaving and did. I think he's sorry now but it is too late.

Try to call attention to your Topic by renaming it something like HELP PLEASE-PLAN A or B in order to get more opinions from MB Veterans. They definitely counseled me to go slow when I was in your position. You can edit your topic by clicking the paper and pencil icon on your first post.

I just think strongly that you should LET HER STAY and don't change any routines in your house-even let her sleep with you. DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY is a major EN that my WS misses. Try to get a copy of HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS by W. Harley or read up on ENs on this site.

I'm praying for you.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

You know, if there wasn't explicit talk about Plan A/B, I would have said that you were closer to Plan B.

It seems that you can already see that facing reality is having an effect on your W's behavior towards you. As you can see, she knows that you are a good thing and that she doesn't want to lose you. And the deep fog she's in (as shown by her specious arguments of why she should move back in) are going to keep any possible benefits of a switch back (moving back in) to a bare minimum.

Obviously, my advice is the complete opposite of mimi's. I simply see a switch to a early Plan A situation at this point a way of rewarding WW and would do more harm in the long term now that you've gone past telling daughter and moving WW out of house. I would see it as a failed plan B, and that is one of the worst outcomes.

The only thing that confuses the issue for me is whether to continue the contact you currently have or transition to a more thorough Plan B. Bringing the talk back to how this is "her choice" and not allowing her to blame you is very important.

FWIW, it seems that the finer details of working with a WH and a WW can be very different (not always, but more so than not), so I encourage you to make sure that the advice you get is appropriate for your situation.

It's too bad that more self-aware FWW don't comment more in these plan A/B situations. Understanding even more about what your W is thinking/feeling would probably help set a clearer path.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>My vote continues to be for PLAN A for you. The goal is for you to NEGOTIATE with her an ending to the A, not to DEMAND that she do it your way and on your terms. That's a major LB, speaking as a woman. You want to come across now as gentle and kind, understanding how difficult this must be for her. MB recommends PLAN A for 6 months. I would try to figure out what HER NEEDS are that went unmet and make YOUR PLAN to be the best husband and father you can be. She is not wanting to leave. Your PLAN A thus far is working. I wouldn't push her out. You are so lucky. My WS was deadset on leaving and did. I think he's sorry now but it is too late.

Try to call attention to your Topic by renaming it something like HELP PLEASE-PLAN A or B in order to get more opinions from MB Veterans. They definitely counseled me to go slow when I was in your position. You can edit your topic by clicking the paper and pencil icon on your first post.

I just think strongly that you should LET HER STAY and don't change any routines in your house-even let her sleep with you. DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY is a major EN that my WS misses. Try to get a copy of HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS by W. Harley or read up on ENs on this site.

I'm praying for you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi

thank you for the advice and prayers. Appreciated at this difficult time.

Have changed the title as you suggested, and have ordered several books (including the above) - should have them by Monday.
I am trying hard to meet her needs, and feel that I'm doing ok there - when and where she lets me in. I am being understanding too I think - she has said as much to me in some of her less foggy moments. Think I have have been a very good father and am working hard at being even better (Superdad mark II <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and good husband (although that idea seems strange at the moment!).

I am being respectful and understanding almost all the time and trying not to LB (have slipped a little here and there, but I guess that is par for the course). The only area of any conflict at the moment is whether I let her stay, although she left tonight without any major argument.

As regards her staying here and letting her sleep with me - it was her instigation to sleep in separate beds - around the time that she 'consummated' the A, I believe, so I don't think that would be an issue even if she was staying here.

The major difficulty I have here is as follows.

I truly believe she is majorly cake-eating and is not facing reality if she was to stay. She has never been a strategic person or a planner - the counsellor (who has had a session with her) has described her as very naive. On its own, I might be able to live with that, but there are other concerns:

Firstly, the effect things were having on our D. She was already very unhappy with Mom (even before D-Day) about being out so much and always being on the phone. I don't want that relationship to be damaged any more than it has already been or will be.

Secondly and more pertinently - if I let her stay now, I believe it prevents any real chance at an effective plan B for me. I don't believe she will suddenly leave at a request in 6 months time (or whenever plan A ends) - leaving me with no option but to leave our home. I/we can't afford to rent or buy another property anywhere near, so I don't think I could take our D with me, or have any real custodial role - the best I could do would be to move in with friends, family or house-share with someone. Furthermore if we go the legal separation route, my case will be significantly weakened and as a man looking to gain custody of a 9 year old girl - the odds are bleak. Seeing as how it is very difficult to go full plan B with a child, and impossible (I think) to do so while remaining in the same house - I am compromised. Hence the 'modified plan A'. Does that make more sense now?

Thanks Est

yes, a question I have struggled with is whether to move to more of a plan B, as any 'harsh reality injections' have produced some effects so far. However, I think an effective plan B demands a good plan precedes it?
Hence I am trying my 'modified plan A'.

I note from your sig how similar our ages, and timelines match - and also how quickly you moved from D-Day (were there 3 d-days ?) to plan B. However it seems to have worked for you. Hope the recovery continues for you.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Salerio ]</small>

The advice that I got from Steve Harley and the advice of James Dobson who wrote Love Must Be Tough is the same. They encourage the WS to take the position that we want the marriage. They can separate from us if they choose to do so. That would mean that you do nothing. If your wife wants to leave, give her the freedom to leave and to find a place to stay. If your wife wants to be with the OM bad enough, she will probably leave. They become so addicted.

My WS has also told me that the Dobson approach (he does not know what it is) was effective. I'm not consistent about using it. However, I will myself to say to him "You chose this separation, I did not" when he begins to feel the consequences of his actions.

Will say more later.

Take Care.

I think you ARE in Plan-A Sal ..... I disagree with Mimi (whom I love and respect).

I guess I am more of a hard a$$ than others.

I too had my WS move out. He lived with his Mom and Dad. We then 'dated" and he visited the kids. WS became heroic in his efforts to reconcile when he realized I was the wife he wanted (Plan-A works) ... and he was in danger of losing what he wanted. (To be fair, he was an active alcoholic at the time, and I refused his marriage re-entery efforts until he was well-acquainted and worlking with the AA 12 steps)

I believe, in some situations, the better Plan- A can be done with the WS on the outside of the family home, looking through the window at what is about to be lost.

The Plan -A I see Sal implementing is kind, has few LBs, all the while creating very firm boundaries. Boundaries and consequences are not LBs. Sal is taking his wife on fun dates .... that is a real great start!

I believe that with Sals wife living elsewhere, the A will loose it's fantasy element much much faster, and the time it takes for her to come out of the fog is actually quicker ..... thus beter for everyone involved, especially their confused and worrid child.

My 2 pennies!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Sal, here is the rest of my thinking, based on some "intuition" after reading your thread.

Your wife and OM are probably "getting high" together. And, I don't mean high on love. Pot, booze, or worse. She may be "addicted" to his company in more ways than one.

You said the C mentioned your W is very immature emotionally. Then, you said the OM lives with his Mom, and is, basically, a party boy. I think he's offered her something "fun" and she keeps going back.

Any thoughts? Maybe hire a PI to investigate his past?

worried ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Pep

Pepper and Mimi

Thanks for the (conflicting !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) advice.
FWIW I do consider it to be more of a plan A.
Based on the feedback I have got her I have made one important modification - I have decided to put up with WW's behaviour in terms of 'using' our home as a resting point, launderette, restraunt etc - i.e. she is not really moving out.
I am proceeding with being superdad and 'new man' about the house, and received some positive feedback on it today.

I could/can take encouragement from the following:
- yesterday WW wanted to take our D out, to which I readily agreed, and was then invited to come along also.
- today WW came with D and I to go bowling, and then asked me to go to cinema (original plan for yesterday which didn't work out) afterwards.
- WW asked me to go to dinner with her tomorrow (with option of bringing D if I wanted - I said just the two of us)
- WW hugged me repeatedly today after a short discussion about our relationship and was very emotional/teary afterwards (as was I)
- WW apologised to me - "I'm sorry for doing this to you" - I did reply (respectfully) that I wasn't sure what sorry meant if she kept repeating the action that hurt. That led to a long silence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - but I don't know if it was really a LB? She 'clarified' it as sorry as in sorry our relationship turned out this way, but it really is dead - I think this is fog talk.

I am trying very hard not to LB, but do find it hard work ( I guess its always going to be!). I haven't got angry at all really recently with her, but I do find myself getting very sad and withdrawn occasionally, especially after a long period in her company - I just can't help 'triggering' on things she says or does that make me think of the A - and that hurts - a lot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We are invited to the wedding of a good friend next week and have decided that we won't be able to go - it would involve 3 full days together in another country with no 'escape route' - it just shows how flimsy this damn A is - I booked the flights and hotel at the start of March before this started <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> We haven't discussed yet what our excuses are going to be, but I'm leaning towards telling the truth to our friend - although we'll probably use a 'can't get time off work' excuse for all our other friends who will be there.

Pepper - very interesting intuition there. OM would consider himself more of an 'artistic temperment - free spirit - bohemian' - I would just say a 'freeloader - responsibility avoiding - immature self centred f*&face' - although I might not be neutral <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

There is certainly booze involved, and quite possibly pot - WW did actually mention something about pot last week. Not sure if I posted it here, but this started out of him filling a recreational companionship need of hers. Contributory factors were my trust (her being my W, and him being a good friend), her lack of close female friends living nearby, our lack of a regular and reliable sitter and probably my complacency.

Not sure what in particular you are worried about here Pepper - booze and the odd bit of pot wouldn't unduly bother me - and I don't really think there would be any other drugs involved.
As regards the PI - I don't think I need one - I know a lot already, and have his none-too-pleased ex-GF who he dropped during this A, who has known him since mid-teens to call on for any info I need <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Am trying to be strong and pursue the best possible plan A for a while yet. You guys are a great help in doing that - thanks!

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Salerio ]</small>

Well tonight was interesting.

WW stayed around for a bit. Had a shower and did some laundry. What I found interesting, although I'm strying not read too much into it, is that just after her shower she came in to talk to me, just wrapped in her towel and to talk about how her toe was bruised and she thought it was nail varnish. General husband-wife chat, and something that she has done on-and-off thru this A, but the business of coming to me dressed only in a towel I found intriguing. Since the A started, she has been very hesitant about being any way unclothed in front of me. She could quite easily have got dressed and then showed me her 'naked' feet if the bruise was all she wanted to talk about. Am I reading too much into the fact that she was comfortable approaching me in just a towel?

She obviously didn't want to leave tonight - she asked me several times if she could stay, although when I said no, she accepted without undue fuss. She is staying in a B&B tonight, although she stated she would prefer to stay here. I suspect that OM may be there too tonight, but I am taking a certain satisfaction from him being second choice tonight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Interestingly too, as she was leaving she again raised the issue of tomorrow night - she asked me to go out for dinner with her - and asked if she could stay her tomorrow after dinner. I said no, and she then asked if I would still go out with her. I said yes, that I would like that. I am interpreting this quite positively, for now.

All this sounds extremely positive!!!! I don't think you're reading anything into it that isn't real. Your PLAN seems to be working. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

thanks Mimi

I hope it is. I fluctuate between two extremes really - in one I think my WW's personality/psyche is such that she will take a long time to come around (she can be very headstrong and irrational - even before A), and in the other I think that we really had quite a good relationship before A, and that constant reminders of that will bring her round quickly.

either way, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing - I feel like I'm a better person because of it if nothing else.

Thanks for the support and advice.

Not a good day today, but I suppose gotta expect some setbacks on this long road.

WW was due to be here by 1:45 pm to see D and let me out for the afternoon to (after a long absence) go back to softball team. WW was staying in a guesthouse last night - her sis didn't want her last night as her BF was home after a long time away.

WW left last night, without undue fuss, with word to our D to call her on phone later about something that was on TV. WW phoned about 40mins after leaving house and had a brief conversation with D. I had brief conversation here also, and got a long pause and a 'yes, just outside now' when I asked if she was at guesthouse. 20 mins later D wanted to ring WW and couldn't get through - phone switched off.

No show at 1:45. Phone continually switched off till a short call from WW at 5:45 saying she would be home in an hour and we (me, her and D) could go out for something to eat. Was very civil, trying not to LB.

Meal went ok, although WW was a bit pissed off that I told OM's sister about the A this afternoon. Info - OM's sis plays for our softball team (as did OM and WW), and I told WW 10 days ago that I wanted her to know, as otherwise it would have been too akward for me to deal with. I told her this afternoon, and she was shocked and upset - and symapathetic. My attitute is tough ****. I had good reason for wanting her to know, had given ample opportunity for OM to tell her (he lives in the same damn house as her!!) and if he chose not to, that is his problem. Any pain she felt (and she did) was because of what happened and not because it was me who told her.

Got thru meal ok, although it was a little tense and went home. WW announces that she will stay her tonight and will not entertain discussion about the matter. I am now really pissed off - it is too late to throw her out, and I feel she has engineered this situation. She is back to where she was before - I have no right to tell her she can't stay here (unfortunately correct in a legal if not moral sense <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ). I feel really bad for our D tonight who will doubtless take this as a hopeful sign - if Mom wasn't here because Mom and Dad weren't getting on too well, then Mom being home must mean things are getting better - and they aren't <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I expressed this to WW and also told her it showed no respect for me and hurt me deeply that she wanted to stay in our house and continue the A.

I took a break - as the temperature was rising - and went for a walk. When I came back I think I LB-ed badly - I effectively threatened her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I told her that she had put me in a position where I had to let her stay tonight and that I felt very upset, used and unhappy about that, but that tomorrow she could move on again and if she was rowing with her sis (her stated reason for not staying there tonight), that I would call some of her friends and tell them the situation and ask them to accomodate her for a few nights while she organised a place of her own.

I feel I was trapped here and don't really know if I did right or wrong. I have set a boundary that she can't stay here while OM is in the picture (reasons explained above), and am now just trying to enforce it. However I have done this by threatening and that can't be good?

Ive been wondering about you asking her to leave. It seems like it might keep you in a bind. Yes, legally, you can't make her leave.

It can be a setup too. My WS would try to setup scenes to feel justified to stay in the A. Then he and OW could rendezvous and talk about how awful I was. It frustrated him when I would not fall into his traps. My PLAN A was so good that they at least do not have me for conversation at this point.

I guess I'm saying that you are setup to be controlling and demanding by needing to make her leave. Maybe it might be a good idea to back off from this. Let her make her own decision to leave. I believe that she wants to make it so she is not responsible and you FORCED her into it. My WS tried that one too. He eventually had to leave on his own this last time. I know others here may not agree with this but I experienced those set-ups, prompting you to want to get angry and LB.

Also remember it's going to go slow and be a roller-coaster ride. Tomorrow it will be something different but it remains difficult. This is AWFUL for us. There's no way around it.

Take Care.