Well, it has been a couple of weeks sine I updated. things for the most part appear to be going well. My wife has been home close to 7 weeks, and each day, we seem to get more comfortable. I first have some observations for everyone on the initial parts of recovery...and then a few questions to pose for the group.

Observations. It has been a slow process, but steady. I have noticed that when I withdraw, my wife now searches me out and tries to bring out what my problem is. We have had some serious talks (the latest one last night), but it seems that she is now ready to handle some of this and for us to work through it.

Many times, I find myself getting anxious. Why? Well, an example was the other night. My wife was at the end of our bed folding laundry. We had a great day together, and we were talking abd being together like nothing had ever happened. But a trigger came up, and I suddenly got very depressed. here she was, the wife I used to know. But how could that be? My brain was having trouble reconciling my wife, with the WW of the last two years (kind of the same disbelief that I had in trying to reconcile the who she was on D-Day). I got quiet for a few minutes, as I tried to sort things out. My wife has become very good at giving me the time to work through these things in my head, and is generally able to handle discussions of R and A in moderation.

Neither of us are particularly interested in pressing things forward at a faster pace. We know there are issues still to be resolved, both before the A and from it. And we are taking them on a little at a time. All in all, pretty good progress. We have begun to finish putting everything back together (bank accounts, etc). We are making plans on house, cars, vacations, etc. Like I said, 90% of most days are great. My wife calls me at work or on my cell several times a day. She is usually happy, and is now back to saying "I love you." She is affectionate most the time, with hugs and kisses or playful slaps on the butt. Although the affectionate part still has its walls (more below).

When I talk about something that has to do with A, she usually just listens, or answers my direct questions. In the past, this would lead to an argument, because in the A, she really didn't care what I was thinking and feeling. Now, she will come back to me later after she has digested what I have said, and thank me for telling her that and that she is going to think on it and try to figure out whatever it was. So, she is definitely making effort here.

She was EXTREMELY happy at her graduation, and having me and the kids there. She could see that all of us were so proud of her.

I guess the summation of my observations is that like is pointed out at MB, it is very important to build up the love banks before pursuing the problems. So, we have done that for the most part since she has come home. At least I have. She has to an extent, but part of my problem is the level of intimacy and SF, which is draining what she puts in over other areas.

Issues & Questions. Last night was a case in point on my current issues. I came straight out and asked my wife what it was going to take to work toward re-establishing our intimacy. You see, she was very affectionate when she first came home. We had SF several times that first week. She was "coming on to me" on many occasions. But since April 9th, there has been next to nothing in the intimacy area (and I am not just talking about sex).

I asked her last night what it was that was keeping her from pursuing our relationship fully. Now, to her defense, she does have a "female" problem right now that she is going to see the OB/GYN next week on. So, some of this may be due to that. And I have tried not to pressure because of these problems, knowing she cannot control this.

But she did say that wasnt the only issue. She said there were things that I did and said over the affair that have caused her to pull back, to be afraid to get more intimate with me. She said I used things she told me against her (like her telling me about OM calling out his Ex-wife's name while having sex with my wife…she said I used it against her in an argument…what I said during the argument was that she hadnt realized who the OM really was and that the "loser" was still in love with his ex). She said that I exposed her A for the world to see. I said "So what?" she said others have gone through this and the BS covered up the situation and didn't treat their WS this way. I told her that it wasn't my responsibility to cover up for her I never went out of my way to defame her. But when asked, I gave the truth.

She says I poisoned the kids against her. I told her that wasn't true. Sure, there were some things I should have done better with the kids, in respect to my wife and what she was doing. But I had no problem with the kids understanding that what their mother was doing was wrong But I also constantly played their mom up…constantly prayed with them for the recovery of our family. She says I told them she wasn't a part of the family anymore. This is another misrepresentation. I told the kids that Mom wanted to set up a new family, and that they would end up being a part of two families when this was all over with. I do not succomb to the divorce culture in this nation that says that a divorced family is still a family nonetheless. It is not. The core of a family is husband and wife, not mom and dad. Now, my wife in divorce would still be family with the kids. And I would be family with the kids. But the two of us would not be family, no longer related. Thus, the abolition of the Mortarman family.

Anyway, it is issues like this (go back and look at my threads over the last year and see the things I did or didn't do) that she says causes her to keep her distance somewhat. I told her that there are several things I did that I wasn't proud of that I have apologized for. I was not perfect. But I said her reputation is the way it is because of her actions, not anything I did. I did tell her that the only person I undermined with the kids was the OM. They needed to know what kind of man he is, especially if she ended up bringing him into their lives. I told her I am not sorry for that, or for any pain, discomfort, etc that I caused OM. He deserved Ssooooo much more!

I guess my issue is that everywhere in our relationship seems to be progressing nicely. But my wife says that the intimacy issue may never return to what it was. That we may never have that affection and SF like we used to. And affection and SF were the cornerstones of our relationship (Both SF and affection are in our top 3 ENs). Guys and gals…I need these areas to be a priority. It is what makes me tick. My wife also needs them because they are number 2 and 3 ENs.

So, is it just too early? Then why were we so passionate early on, and now we arent doing anything? Because of the medical problems? Because she is finally dealing with the issues inside her and is upset?

If she is dealing with all of this now, how do I proceed with her? I need my ENs filled, and so does she. Her number one is financial security, which I am meeting VERY well! Lots of deposits in the love bank. But her 2 & 3 are not being met. None of my top three are being met.

Since she has backed off, and been acting somewhat fatalistic in this area for the last week, how do I get her moving again? I cannot continue to be at the top of my game when my main ENs are not being met.

I will open the discussion here. I may have to elaborate more to let you get the full picture. Again, recovery seems to be going well overall. But these issues concern me because they have the potential to derail our recovery right as it is taking off

In His arms.

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my issue is that everywhere in our relationship seems to be progressing nicely. But my wife says that the intimacy issue may never return to what it was. That we may never have that affection and SF like we used to. And affection and SF were the cornerstones of our relationship (Both SF and affection are in our top 3 ENs). Guys and gals…I need these areas to be a priority. It is what makes me tick. My wife also needs them because they are number 2 and 3 ENs.

So, is it just too early? Then why were we so passionate early on, and now we arent doing anything? Because of the medical problems? Because she is finally dealing with the issues inside her and is upset?

If she is dealing with all of this now, how do I proceed with her? I need my ENs filled, and so does she. Her number one is financial security, which I am meeting VERY well! Lots of deposits in the love bank. But her 2 & 3 are not being met. None of my top three are being met.

Since she has backed off, and been acting somewhat fatalistic in this area for the last week, how do I get her moving again? I cannot continue to be at the top of my game when my main ENs are not being met.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are her female health problems, a very recent development? Because if they are, then the answer may physiological rather than emotional. If she is physically sick, then you should forget about SF until she becomes healthy again. Remember the vow 'in sickness, and in health'.

Affection should not be tied to SF(even though it usually is involved in it) because if it is then she may not be very happy and sexually turned on. Do you give her hugs, kisses and 'I love you's' on an almost daily basis with no strings attached? Remember the old saying 'men give affection to get sex, and women give sex to get affection'? Sometimes it is very, very true. Have you been guilty of this?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to blame you for your situation, but it might be good for you to go back and review your behavior in the last few weeks, with regards to the above.

Hi MM,

Assuming all turns out okay in the female area, and not knowing how affectionate you are with your W and not know her, I am guessing here.

But, I know for me and my female friends, we want affection at times other than when sex is involved. We want hugs, kisses tenderness, cuddleing that does not involved sex. It does help to get things going when the sex is being offered. If not, then we feel like the only time you are affectionate is when you want sex. (now this is not directed towards you personally, this is a generalized statement with the you being men, and not all men)

MM,

I sincerely believe that all those feelings will come back in time. Right now you are both still hurting from the pain of the affair and RE-LEARNING to let down your emotional walls and trust. I think the longer you are together and the greater the trust, the more intimacy will grow.

True intimacy is very contingent upon emotional trust and you are both still leery of each other. The greatest indicator of this is what she told you about how she felt about your remarks about the OM. I remember just a few weeks ago, you were saying that you were also hesitant in SF [certain acts, that is] because of the connection in your mind with the OM. With women, there is even MORE of an emotional aspect to SF than with men. I just think that this will grow in time as your mutual trust grows. And as your trust grows, you will both relax those walls enough to experience SF again.

Gee Mortarman, i hope I am using military terminology appropriately: It sounds to me that based on what has so far transpired between you, it is SNAFU. Keep on keeping on, this too will pass - I think. Getting back to healthy intimacy takes time. I would not say that we are there yet, at 18 months, and we never had this particular issue. We had other issues - like not having a healthy intimate life to look back and compare to... On the bright side, things are better than ever before, and continue to improve, though not in a straight line - two steps forward one back seems to be the rule.

Re: mood swings - the better things got between us, the worse my mood swings seemed to be. The downs weren't realy any lower, but it got so I didn't expect them so much, which I think made them feel worse.

Re: building intimacy:

Praying together daily helped. My time in prayer alone helped me not be too proud (I asked God to show me my sin - he did). The resulting humility on my part was helpful. REALLY REALLY searching for understanding in my conversations with my wife, both of what exactly the words she was using meant to her, but also paying attention to and searching to understand the feelings behind the words. I am not sure the actual issues she is bringing up are so inportant. It seems the underlying theme is that your wife feels you did not protect her, and protection is a big thing for most women - so maybe the intimacy issue is tied to whether she feels you are protecting her now, and whether she is rememebering times when she felt you were not protecting her.

Oh yeah, are you seeing a coach or counselor? They might be able to help you with this. One of a counselors primary tasks is encouragement, and you both could use some, I think.

Hi MM,
I agree with johnh39- a MC might be best here to help both of you sort out the marital issues and guide you both thru recovery.
All the best.

MM: One more thing. The "searching for understanding" thing goes both ways. I think she does not understand you. A prime example is this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says I told them she wasn't a part of the family anymore. This is another misrepresentation. I told the kids that Mom wanted to set up a new family, and that they would end up being a part of two families when this was all over with. I do not succomb to the divorce culture in this nation that says that a divorced family is still a family nonetheless. It is not. The core of a family is husband and wife, not mom and dad. Now, my wife in divorce would still be family with the kids. And I would be family with the kids. But the two of us would not be family, no longer related. Thus, the abolition of the Mortarman family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think she understands completely your point of view on this. I do see how that point of view could lead you to do some things that seemed right to you, but from another point of view would seem wrong or vindictive to her. I think the issue is trying to get her to see how your point of view led you to do what you did, but that your motivation was not vindictiveness. Partly, she needs re-assurance that you will protect her.

The thing NOT to do is argue about which point of view was "right". That is NOT your job. Your job is to love your wife. Let God work on her view of things. (And, just to let you know, in this case, I can make an argument based on scripture that you are wrong, and the "divorce culture" is right, that starts from the premise that the Old Testament prohibition of remarriage between a divorced couple after one had re-married and the second marriage had ended, was because it was considered incest - the divorced couple remained "family" to each other, though no longer husband and wife.) Anyway, the point is to understand each other's motivations based on your point of view at the time, not to argue about who's point of view was correct. As for what is the "right" point of view - try to remember that "we see but through a glass darkly", and that EVERYONE, including us, believes what they want to believe, and the question of why someone wants to believe something leads to more understanding of that person than an argument about whether what they believe is true or not. (Now, if I could always remember that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

As for both of you growing in your understanding of God's perspective on marriage: We've been using the devotions in the "Marriage Devotional Bible" to help us gain understanding of what the Bible says about marriage. To tell you the truth I am not all that thrilled with it - at times the devotion does not really seem related to the verse(s) referenced, and I have at times dis-agreed with the points the devotional authors have made - but the discipline of doing that daily with my wife has helped us to stay focused on what God wants us to be doing in our marriage, and on understanding God's perspective.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Thanks for the replies all. We had another talk last night, which went okay I guess. We both were a little upset from it, but I guess we wil have days like that. Today, we are okay and laughing together so conversations like that dont seem to place our relationship in crisis anymore. But we have to find some resolution to these. First, I'd like to respond to your posts and clarify a few things.

Coffeeman: You hit on it first, although others here asked some of the same things. So let me answer it for everyone here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are her female health problems, a very recent development? Because if they are, then the answer may physiological rather than emotional. If she is physically sick, then you should forget about SF until she becomes healthy again. Remember the vow 'in sickness, and in health'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some are...some have gotten more severe, but started right after I left for Bosnia. Dont really need to go into them here. I understand the physically sick thing, I would not pressure her into any SF because of that, or while that is going on. I am not THAT insensitive! Anyway, my problem isnt that issue, and it seems it isnt hers either. If it were just that, I wouldnt even be discussing this with her We would just get things well and then proceed on. So, point well taken, but I dont think my wife would say that I have been since she's been home, insensitive to some of her health issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affection should not be tied to SF(even though it usually is involved in it) because if it is then she may not be very happy and sexually turned on. Do you give her hugs, kisses and 'I love you's'on an almost daily basis with no strings attached? Remember the old saying 'men give affection to get sex, and women give sex to get affection'? Sometimes it is very, very true. Have you been guilty of this?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to blame you for your situation, but it might be good for you to go back and review your behavior in the last few weeks, with regards to the above. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah. I have reviewed this over and over in my head. I think I have been on my BEST behavior since she has been home, especially in this area. She initiated SF the first week home on several occasions. She at times has been playful and shown that she wants to proceed. But most of the time it is no interest. When I talked to her the last several days about it, she gave me the reasons I stated in my original post. I understand the affection scenario in males and females. I have been very aware of this and tried to go above and beyond the call of duty in this area. But she was more conducive to SF and affection in the first few weeks she was home than she is now. And I think we are more relaxed around each other and getting along in other areas of our lives NOW than we were then. So it doesn't make much sense.

Sue: Yes, I have learned this well about women, and especially about my wife. SF was never really our problem, until the marriage started having problems the past couple of years. My #3 EN is affection, hers is #2. So, it has always been a big part of our relationship, as well as SF (#1 for me, #3 for her). So, I do try to meet her needs in these areas, knowing that in the past, mine were taken care of as a result. Now, though, she seems to be getting fatalistic and saying that we might not ever be intimate like we were before (see my original post).

Melody: I think you are hitting on it, but my problem is that in the affection and SF areas, she seems to be pulling away, not getting closer. I am sure it is setting up walls, but why did she seem much closer in those areas the first two weeks she was home than the last 5? I don't mind taking time. I don't mind the fact that it will take time for the walls to come down and trust rebuilt. My problem is that she has the view all of a sudden that she isnt going to have the intimacy we had (and that she and I need) back in her life

John39: A lot here for me to respond to. On the faith issue, she has really fallen away from the Lord. I think it is going to be awhile for her to get back up with her relationship with Him. I know that is the answer. But she still is not there yet. On the intimacy issue, I think I do agree with you. My problem is that thinks seem to be slipping. It would have been different if there was no intimacy up until now, but there was when she first came home…now next to nothing. My top three ENs are SF, admiration and affection. She really is not meeting any of these right now. She isnt LBing, and is meeting most of the rest. We really are getting along pretty well. But how much longer can I go on without my top three being met? How do I get her moving?

Several have commented on MC. Ironically, my wife had Steve Harley's phone number out last night. She said she wanted to get back to talking with him, because when she counseled with him last summer, he seemed to be the only one who understood her and what she was going through. So, I thought this was great But she doesn't seem in any hurry to work on herself or those things. Who knows when she will make that call? She is more interested in family life again (which is VERY good), hanging out with me, talking, work, gym, etc. Now this isnt bad, but then she says she doesn't have time for dealing with this. Or she is too tired or busy when I might be trying to be affectionate. Hopefully, I can get her motivated to call Steve and he can help her get started (I might have to make that appointment for her).

On the issue you put concerning her views versus my views…I think you are right on. My issue now is not trying to prove right or wrong. She may be wrong, but her emotions and pointofview still have to be taken into account. As you said. I am doing this, and better than I ever have in my life. But it isnt my current self that is dragging this out. It is how to get her to see that, like in the example you gave, that my motivations were different than what she thinks I have told her…but that doesn't seem to help her much.

Update…last night we talked some more. She said I was being unrealistic to expect that we would get back the level of intimacy we once had. That upset me. Of course I have problems with what she did, and they are impediments to our intimacy. Of course, I still have problems with her performing certain "acts" with me. I am unsure if that will ever go away. But I am not fatalistic about it. She is. How do I get her pointed in the direction where she will try, where she will give it a shot. She seems to be backing away in this area. And like I said above, I am again starting to feel the drain on my love bank. And things are going so well in so many other areas, that I do not want this to derail our recovery. But my anxiety, my pain, my needing my top ENs met is increasing. And making me more and more irritable. This will not help our recovery.

So, keep the suggestions coming. I think all of you are right on. I just wish I knew the answer here, so I can keep myself from feeling bitter and get my needs met

In His arms.

MM,

I think you need the consider the possibility of guilt and depression. The first few weeks are fueled by the NEED to be together and sort of make up for things. After that the reality of what she has done, what she has missed, and where she is have hit her. It is sort of a withdrawal although in this case it isn't the OM. It is just what she has done. I will get out SKM's Chronicles for you or you can search in Recovery under the term "Chronicles" for her post. It may take months for her to get back on track.

As for her claim, that intimacy may never be what it was. I agree. It can be much better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Why? Well, intimacy was the glue that held a troubled marriage together before, so there very likely was a desperation to it. Now, it isn't the glue that holds your marriage together. You two are now together because you WANT to be. Now intimacy may well take on a different form, I can see as she comes out of her current situation that your intimacy with her will actually change to something you both enjoy much more. Can you see this possiblility???

If you can perhaps you might want to discuss it with her, AFTER you talk with her about her feeling down. It is not uncommon coupled with her medical issue to feel depressed following a recovery such as you two have made. It as intense, dramatic, and difficult. After such effort even people in top shape will sag a bit, and remember you don't carry the guilt.

So just think about this. I hope it is of some help.

God Bless,

JL

JL: As usual, you are a voice of reason. And I think you are right on with the guilt and depression thing. She is taking ADs now. so, I think that you may be right.

On the intimacy issue, I think you are also right on. I do see it being different, better. My problem I guess is that this process doesnt leave me much room to get my needs met for a long while. When she wasnt home, it wasnt that big of a deal. But with her there right under my nose, so to speak, it is making it increasingly difficult not to feel rejected and to be missing my needs being met. In recovery, the Harleys talk about the need to protect each other first. I think we are doing pretty well at this. But the next thing is to try to fill up the love banks so we will be better able to confront our issues and move forward. Now, how can I get my needs met if she is pulling away in those areas. Her #1 (financial security) is being met by me. Her #2 is also being met, as I am always attentive and affectionate with her...always complimenting...and she yet to go without flowers on her table since February. So, her #3 isnt being met (SF). But her top two are.

In my case, none of my top three are being met. I know she is the one with the guilt and issues to work through. I am just starting to feel the twinges of anxiety now and dont want to fall into that trap. It is so easy for the anger and pain of the A to seep in when that happens. And I do not want that to happen.

So, I am wondering how the Harleys (or anyone else) sees this process going, in regards to having any or all of my top needs met. I guess that is what I have been trying to find out.

In His arms.

I don't know what else I can say except that it is extremely common for sexual interest in each other to go from very high to very low or vice-versa at some point in recovery. In fact when things were going VERY well for us soon after DDay, our MC warned us that it is very common for that to be followed by a VERY bad period where one of both of us lose interest. However, the timing and heights and depths of these cycles are unpredictable, and depend on too many variables to accurately predict. So, you might want to re-assure her about feeling as she does right now. It is pretty common.

As to getting back to the level of intimacy you had before: if you work the Harley program, your marriage will get better, and your sex life will follow. An entirely non-Christian book on the subject of how to solve sexual prolems in marriage that I like a lot is "Passionate Marriage", by Schnarch. He COMPLETELY understands how sex, especially great sex, is connected to the rest of your relationship. If she sees the changge in your sex life as a problem, you may find reading it together is helpful. It is densely written, so it will take some time. The other thing he is good at is working through past issues ONLY as they affect the present.

Hmmm... the lack of her fulfilling your admiration and affection needs is troubling, but I don't know what the issues are. I'm guessing here - it may be that your wife returned to you more to repair the wife and mother role that would ALWAYS be broken if she stayed with the OM, than for the wife and lover role, which she could have with someone else. It can be difficult for women to switch from one role to the other even if they think do not have and affair to process. Someone on this board said somethng to the effect of "I can't just snap my fingers and go from "mom" to "lover" when I walk through the bedroom door after putting DS in bed". Besides, with everything going on, the lover role may seem a burden, anyway, because I have heard from women who have a high need for sex that it requires a lot of energy, which was something I did not understand about my wife (for whom it requires even more energy, since is is not one of her highest needs). Maybe the affection and admiration is associated in her mind with the lover role, which is not going so well for her right now - and I think your incapability of doing certain things with her right now is probably a big part of her pessimistic attitude. It probably makes her feel like a failure, and un-appreciated. A lot of what Harley does is simply emphasize the importance of the lover role in marriage. My wife did not want to carefully examine her relatinship with the OM, because she said it was somewhat one-dimensional, and she didn't want our reltionship to be like that (not to mention she had terrible guilt about it, so it was emotionally painful to look at what they had done). But, painful as it was for both of us, we have had to immitate their relationship in some ways, because ours was missing those elements. My point is that if those "certain things" she wants to do were a part of her lover reltaionship with you in the past, it is only normal that she would bring them to another lover relationship, and that she would want them to be a part of a new lover relationship with you, because in her mind, that's what lovers DO!

Anyway the one thing that really gets my wife feeling connected to me in a way that promotes sexual intimacy between us is for me to pursue time alone with her just to be alone with her - just because I want to do something WITH HER we enjoy, want to work on projects WITH HER, want to show her it's not her body I want, it is not her fulfilling my needs, it is just to BE - WITH HER, sharing life and sharing time alone. I tell her that when we don't spend enought time together because of work or kid time demands, I miss just being together WITH HER. She has a high need for feeling important to me. I'm guessing she is not unique in that.

Lastly: I think you may be spending too much time together sorting through issues. Our MC said we should limit that to 1-1/2 hrs/wk. We needed to have fun together. We need to have fun together. Harley recommends not talking about the A at all after the questions are answered the first week or so. Build the marraige, take extraordinary precautions because one of you has shown they need to, and move forward with working on the marriage, not recovering from the A and the things that led up to it. We spent a lot of time processing the A, and much more on all the things that we both did that led up to it. I am not sure if it was time well spent. Am I glad for the insight I gained? Yes. Is she glad for the insight she gained? I don't know. Was it worth the pain it caused to both of us? I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is so easy for the anger and pain of the A to seep in when that happens. And I do not want that to happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovery is a rollercoaster. It just is. The anger and pain WILL seep in, from time to time, so you better have a way to deal with it that will not result in destroying what you are trying to build.

But, it does point out the wisdom of the Harley approach - if she were meeting those needs, a la the Harley recovery plan, you would have less of a problem with this. You can tell her you are hurting, and why. Pain (and frustration and/or fear) is OK. Anger is the potential grenade.

And, oh, yeah, as has been discussed extensively on these boards, A/D meds can decrease libido.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>