What I'm thinking may be right on line with what I'm supposed to do, but something inside me is telling me otherwise, so I thought I'd ask around.

Quick rundown to start. My wife told me of her affair 3 months ago. The following several weeks were a good try on her part. She broke soon thereafter and called the OM. From there their communication seems to have snowballed to where they're probably talking every day now, or close to it.

My wife still thinks that things can work between us, but also thinks that they can work with her and the OM. She's built this up as a decision that she has to make and live with the rest of her life.

What I'm having trouble getting around is that she says that whatever she decides, she's got to stick to. If she leaves, she wants it to be a final decision. If she stays she wants to be 100% sure when she does that it's the right decision and things will be right.

I think I could probably get her to agree to give things another shot (not just a shot, a true 150% effort for things to work) if I give her an amount of time to start with.

Say I said....we're going to go all out together for 6 months, or until the end of this year. Meaning a true effort at NC. Her being completely up front and honest with me and letting me help her with that.
Us doing everything in our power to make our marriage work.

Is that the way to go in this situation or would I be cutting my own throat by setting a "time limit" on it?

I truly believe that if she'll agree to ____ amount of time, and that she could succeed in having NC with him for a while, that she would realize that it is possible to do.

The reason that I'm hesitant is what if we agree to 6 months, and in the end I needed 6 months and a couple of weeks?

Thoughts?

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

hi high(saw someone else do that)

She has to stay for the right reason and not just put in time to make it look like there was effort. She cannot continue contact with OM. Maybe suggest the clock starts over every time she contacts him. Let her know that you will be checking on that.

My lovely wife stayed but kept in contact with OM and it didn't work. If her heart isn't in it, it doesn't really matter what she agrees to.

just my thoughts

I think everyone pretty much agrees that for things to work out for the both of you then she has to end all contact with the OM.

May want to share some things with her regarding "exit" affairs (those where one spouse uses the affair to end a marriage in order to be with the OP).

Grass Not So Green:

http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/experts/experts_by_month/articles/0,,166977_216368,00.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for some cold hard facts of what happens to those that leave a marriage for their affair partner.

I'm not suggesting that she keep her contact with OM and we try at the same time. I know that will never work.

I just wonder if she can see that I'm not trying to trap her into forever, that maybe she'll loosen up a little. Give us a try without having to go out and see things for herself.

The Harley approach when a WS refuses to end contact with the OP is Plan A, and if that does not work, Plan B. have you done Plan A? See: What Are Plan A and Plan B? and Zorweb on Plan A and Cerri on Plan A. Have you done it with a counselor's or coach's help, so you can get a second pair of eyes looking at things you might miss? If so, then it is time for Plan B, according to Harley.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

In short, no, I guess I haven't Plan A'd yet. Honestly I'm still gathering information as to what exactly is involved.
I was turned to the idea while reading SAA, but the info given there is really sketchy. I've been gathering info from here so I can get a better idea of what exactly is involved.

I have found that, even without knowing it, I've implemented many of the ideas in Plan A already. i just don't want to "officially" go into this half-cocked. I want to know what I should do before start and not have to wing it. I don't feel that I need to run to the computer and ask every time a kink is thrown into the mix.

The links given helped quite a bit. How I would love for my wife to read this stuff....how much should she be cued into what I'm doing? My approach is to tell her everything and go about Plan A. Do I just implement it and let her figure it out? Should I suggest she read up on it? Does that matter?

A couple of things about the posts you linked to. I feel that I may have cut my own throat before knowing better....

When my wife first told me of the affair and started giving me details of what happened, asked me to promise her that what she told me would stay between us. Me, not knowing any better agreed because I wanted her to level with me and I figured I'd do whatever I needed to get that honesty.
Well, one of those posts pushes making the affair as public a spectacle as you can. Which, as it say, goes against every natural instinct that a person has. Who wants to make that known?

Reading that made me feel that I unknowingly backed myself into a corner.

Next. At the end of the 2nd post there's a couple of quotes from Dr. Harley. One says something about when the WS is trying to decide between the BS and the OP, then it's time for Plan B.
I feel that's where my wife is now. What do you do when you're at the point of Plan B and you haven't even done Plan A yet?

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

FWIW, I think a lot of WWs are thinking "I can always go back to OM later" when they "come home". Or at least, "I can see myself being with OM if this doesn't work out".

So in one sense, it doesn't really matter that you tell the wife that this is a trial period. Honestly, I think most early recoveries are trial periods for both parties. If things don't progress enough, then either partner is liable to end the marriage.

I think a "Considering all things, we need to at least give it a honest try" is a legitimate point. Just be clear about what constitutes an "honest try".

I don't know if this will be a deal-maker for her, but it should stick in her mind what the reasonable thing to do is. And that you are a reasonable guy. And hopefully that will bug her a little bit. Of course, that may cause her to flee, but everything has risk.

Going B with A
Regarding "No Plan A before going Plan B". You probably want to make your best case before going the Plan B "Decide between OP and you" route. If nothing else, you should at least strive to have a solid week or two of a Plan A before transitioning. Almost by its definition, you can't have a successful Plan B without a good Plan A. If "it" does work, then it was a different plan.

btw, you're not going to have all the details down no matter how hard you prepare for Plan A, so once you get the non-LBing down and under control and then you may have enough to start it while picking up the rest as you go along.

Promising not to tell Well, you did back yourself into a corner. Yes, there is a lot of terrible irony about someone breaking marriage promises getting pissed about breaking this kind of promise.

That said, depending on when you made the promise, surely there must be something you can say unless you were completely clueless before you made the promise.

Some other suggestions. You could ask her about why she felt that the promise of fidelity no longer applied to her. Once she rationalized herself in that regard, you could just ask her if she felt that your promise was so different that you should keep it also. You're just wondering of course. Not threatening. She may let you out of the promise.

Another is to just have someone confront her in some way so that the truth comes out without you having said anything specific. Often enough someone will suspect something and just needs some nudging.

The third is the "You need support or you'll go crazy" line of thinking. You want to keep your promise, but you need help and it would be very considerate of her to let you seek the help.

What I'm getting at is that the corner you're in may have a escape hatch in the floor.

Telling about Plan A I'd probably not tell. A generalization about WS is that they are lead by feelings and may perceive any structured plan as manipulative. Just do it and let the actions speak for themselves.

Just one thought - if your WW is going it "to try with you" whilst a life with OM remains as an option, then it's not going to work. NC has to be truly there, for certain and for ever. Otherwise, the she wont be really in, and continues to compare, judge and not making an effort to change herself.

Yeah, maybe there is an escape hatch in there somewhere.

When she first came to me with it, there was no talk of not telling anyone. That came in the next day or so when the initial shock had worn off and I was ready to know some details.
At the very beginning, she was so ready to reconcile and make things right.
I had been talking with my pastor about our situation before I found out about the A. It was one of the first things he asked me when I described her behavior and I flat out told him it wasn't the case (didn't know yet). So I think he has an idea in his head.
Anyway, I think it was the night she told me....she was so grieved by the whole thing and so relieved that I didn't react angrily and was there for her throughout the conversation I didn't even think about it. She said something like "are you planning to tell preacher about this?" No demands or anything.
At the time, I was so relieved to actually know what was going on and why she was being such a horrid person to me of late, that I thought about it and said that I didn't think I would.

The promise of not saying anything (to people we know) came the next day when we were discussing details. She asked me to promise not to say anything to anyone about the finer points.
So I guess I could be nitpicky and say that she never asked me to promise not to tell anyone about the affair, just the details, but I don't know how much water that will hold.

There may still be an out...I'll have to explore it.

No, you don't tell about Plan A. You do tell the OM's wife that there was an affair, if he has one. You can still stick to your promise of no details. You can also tell people about your current situation, if that seems warranted, but tread carefully there.

One thing she said that struck me was that her husband said that his current problems with their marriage have nothing to do with the affair.....and she believes that. Another situation to handle.
That&#8217;s why she needs to read the book, the WS&#8217;s always say that but it is seldom the whole story. Most often the affair has everything to do with it.

I was afraid that would be suggested. ( keeping OM&#8217;s wife in touch with ongoing A) I know she needs to know, and since you've read my other post, maybe you can understand how I feel about that. I've been overboard about my wife knowing when I have contact with her, but if I start collaborating with her(OMsW) about the best way for us to go forward, then I feel like I will have to stop including my wife in those exchanges. I guess I wouldn't have to, but I figure that if I send a copy of an email to my wife that informs the girl that her husband is still actively pursuing my wife, that I'm going to open up another can. I have a hard time getting past that.
Radical honesty only works when both spouses agree to it. Until your W does, you need to find out what is going on, and inform OM&#8217;s W what is going on. You can&#8217;t do that if your W knows your every move. Will she get angry if she finds out you are telling OM&#8217;s W the truth? Most likely yes, but you should read this link.
Mthrrhbard on Plan A and natural consequences
A&#8217;s have consequences and we shouldn&#8217;t try to avoid them to please the WS. One of them is that the BS uses every means he has to get the A to end.
How is it withdrawal if she's not abstaining from the thing she's addicted to?
I would welcome some signs of true withdrawal. At least something that might tell me they actually have cut off contact.
You are correct, I used the wrong term. She keeps getting jerked back into the affair every time she has contact. If she has ongoing contact daily, she will be continually unsure about what she wants to do.

Fog? Yeah, I'm starting to see what the deal with fog is. She cleared her mind last night about how she felt, but now things will most likely be very nice for a week or two (?), then the anger and blame will come to the surface and boil over again. It's a horrid cycle.
That may continue for quite some time even after NC. You just have to take it if you want things to work. How long you can take it determines how long you stay in plan A.

Question....how does one try for NC when the WS is the one that makes that decision? If they're still in contact.....why would she ever agree to that.

You plan A. You already know you can&#8217;t make her change, you can only change you and hope it affects her. You plan A for up to 6 months and then if that doesn&#8217;t do the job, you go to plan B. Again, if OM&#8217;s W can plan A right along, it will have more chance of success. Remember if and when you go to B, you have to understand that it may not work, and it may mean the end of the M.


If anybody can answer this really quickly, I'd appreciate it....
Should I say anything about this to my wife later? I've made such an effort to keep her up to date when I talk to this other woman....I just can't see not telling her about it, but I don't want to come off as accusing her of things.
Any suggestions here?
I don&#8217;t post much except at work ( I own it, so I don&#8217;t cheat anyone when I post at work) and I am busy at work right now, and can&#8217;t as often as I would like. I wouldn&#8217;t say anything to your W about this kind of stuff as I said above. Right now you are at war, and you need all the advantage you can get.
I think she's very happy with the changes that have occurred in me over the last 6 months or so. Hopefully that's one thing that's kept her with me. She is usually very complimentary about things she notices and is apologetic of how much hurt and pain she has caused me. Doesn't know how I can love her after all that's happened (I don't know the answer to that one sometimes) It may get worse before it gets better, can you stand it?

I think I could probably get her to agree to give things another shot (not just a shot, a true 150% effort for things to work) if I give her an amount of time to start with.

Say I said....we're going to go all out together for 6 months, or until the end of this year. Meaning a true effort at NC. Her being completely up front and honest with me and letting me help her with that.
Us doing everything in our power to make our marriage work.

Is that the way to go in this situation or would I be cutting my own throat by setting a "time limit" on it?

I truly believe that if she'll agree to ____ amount of time, and that she could succeed in having NC with him for a while, that she would realize that it is possible to do.

The reason that I'm hesitant is what if we agree to 6 months, and in the end I needed 6 months and a couple of weeks? Thoughts?

You need a chance, and you take what you can get. If she will give you until years end, take that, if not, try for 6 months. If you can get a year, take a year. But you need a start and you need NC for that time. It sounds like you trust her to give you what ever she will agree to. That means to me that you had some real issues with LB&#8217;s or not meeting needs before and that she is not normally a dishonest person. If you can get a chance and do a really good plan A you can probably make this work.

I know what D says about the wrong reason, but I believe you start with what you can get, and be glad for the chance. Then you try to turn it into the right reason while you go along.

If she sees it as a trap, tell her she has free will, she can go any time, but you believe if she will agree to it that she will keep her word and you are making the request hoping she will consent of her own free will and give you a chance. You can point out that she can always say no if she distrusts your motives.

I say go for it and take what chance you get. Enlist the OM&#8217;s W too, and get her SAA. Her success means your success but she won&#8217;t be able to understand things until she reads the book.

If you can, call the Harleys, you are smart enough to make this work with the right coaching. WHY NOT INCREASE YOUR CHANCES AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE?

Later Edit -
I just finished reading more posts since I began writing this. Plan B is used when they are trying to deciede, but you always need a good plan A first. Plan A makes you look good so when you finally go to B the WS tends to say: "What was I thiking, I miss all the stuff my H did for me, he was so great!" Always plan A first. That is what you should concentrate on now, telling can come after you figure out most of the rest of plan A.

For now, you meet needs and cut out all love busters. If she won't tell you her most important EN's then you figure it out for your self and start meeting them. You should do somethig today - let us know.

SS

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

One more thing I'm not clear on Plan A.

It says that you meet needs and cut out LB's, but you have to set boundaries. What are those boundaries? I know they probably differ with the situation, but what are examples?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like you trust her to give you what ever she will agree to. That means to me that you had some real issues with LB’s or not meeting needs before and that she is not normally a dishonest person. If you can get a chance and do a really good plan A you can probably make this work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do trust her to do what she says. I am more suspicious that I used to be, but that's to be expected.
I feel that this point that if she doesn't have any urge to cut off contact, that she won't tell me she will (I still haven't gotten a direct answer from her about that). But if she does, I know she'll go all out and do her best. I know she can't guarantee success, but that's not what I'm after. I'm after a chance.

Yes, I did have a huge problem with meeting EN before. Conversation was the biggest one, and the OM is a complete chatterbox. I've improved 1000%, but knowing the guy the way I do, I wonder how good a job I'm really doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now you are at war, and you need all the advantage you can get.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So the gloves come off? I know I have to be careful to cut LB's, and am doing that.
The place I feel trapped is in telling others about what has gone on. I feel kind of trapped inot keeping it a secret, or if anything, going to a 3rd party councelor.
Do I air the story anyway?

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

Some sample boundaries that you might consider:

WW inviting OM to have sex in your bed.
WW going out on dates with OM.
WW spending shared resources on OM.
and others.

For a Plan A, though, setting realistic boundaries is pretty hard. No matter where you set them, your W is still probably going to do things that trigger the bad times. And if you aren't patient enough to put up with some pain, there isn't a high chance of a successful Plan A.

My suggestion is to set up some definite really bad deal-breakers, and put up with the rest for a while. Boundaries become more meaningful during the Plan B to recovery transition. During Plan A, the struggle to be nice and be firm is a real head-spinner and complicator for boundaries. As well as the possibility of being "forced" to act or lose credibility because of a boundary breach.

I think most WS's would agree to your seeing a unknown 3rd party counselor. If that's what you want go for it. I still think you should be able to get grudging acceptance of 1-2 support people. I'd put off airing the story until you hit Plan B stage when all the consequences come together.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some sample boundaries that you might consider:

WW inviting OM to have sex in your bed.
WW going out on dates with OM.
WW spending shared resources on OM.
and others.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah. I guess I misunderstood. I was thinking that the boundaries were for me, not for her.....ie. I'll meet your emotional needs and this and this up to this point. I thought they were to limit me from bending too far backwards for her.
Since I can't control her behavior overall, I didn't figure it would be included to limit her actions. Though I don't think I'll have a problem with any of the above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And if you aren't patient enough to put up with some pain, there isn't a high chance of a successful Plan A.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm patient. If there's one thing I am it's that. I'm more worried of how long she'll stick around to notice things, you know?
The way she talks, she says that she'll probably leave whether she gets with OM or not. She just wants somebody that's different than me. Ouch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think most WS's would agree to your seeing a unknown 3rd party counselor. If that's what you want go for it. I still think you should be able to get grudging acceptance of 1-2 support people.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, she'd have no problem with me going to an uninvolved party. The only problem with that is that I have someone I'd like to go to (my pastor) and the fact that my wife is already seeing a councelor and I can't afford another $100 per week. If I could I would.

As for the support people.....I'd love that. I may see what I can get.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She just wants somebody that's different than me. Ouch. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that's an ouch, but it is also a clue. You might want to look at the divorcebusting.com web site, because one of Michele WD's major strategies is called "doing a 180". I've heard her books are good, too.

As for leaving whether or not the OM is in the picture - they "all" say that. Most even mean it, at the time, and many of those leave. But, many come back. Reality and fantasy are different, and she is not thinking clearly right now.

The other thing is: almost ALL WS's think there is something wrong with their spouse that cannot be fixed becasue it is a problem with WHO THEY (the BS) IS. They do not understand that they really ahve a problem with WHAT the BS DOES, and that the BS can learn new behaviors without violating their sense of self. You need to learn some new behaviors. That is a big part of what Plan A is about. You will still be you, but she will perceive you as being "different" (though I warn you, she will not admit that she is noticing at first, so don't expect this to be an instant cure - in fact she may get MAD as you make positive changes, since you will be taking away her excuses for HER rotten behavior). Re-read those links I posted about Plan A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other thing is: almost ALL WS's think there is something wrong with their spouse that cannot be fixed becasue it is a problem with WHO THEY (the BS) IS. They do not understand that they really ahve a problem with WHAT the BS DOES, and that the BS can learn new behaviors without violating their sense of self. You need to learn some new behaviors. That is a big part of what Plan A is about. You will still be you, but she will perceive you as being "different" (though I warn you, she will not admit that she is noticing at first, so don't expect this to be an instant cure - in fact she may get MAD as you make positive changes, since you will be taking away her excuses for HER rotten behavior).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm starting to understand the fact that the true problem (root problem) was my behavior, not who I am. Even though she says that's what it is.

One thing she always says is that she knows that we can make our marriage work and that it can be a great relationship. She knows that. She just feels that for that to happen, I'm going to have to "conform" to an image she has of me. That I'm going to have to become a different person that who I really am and that eventually I will resent her for that. Either I'll make changes and she'll leave anyway (guess I would resent that) or she'll stay and how many ever years down the road I'll look at the situation and say "Why did I do this for her?" and....I don't know what she thinks I'll do at that point....have an affair of my own?

We had this discussion last night. I think I finally got it somewhat through her head that me altering my behavior to better meet her needs and bring her happiness in our relationship isn't me changing who I am. And it's not going to make me resent her, because as a result of that behavior change, she is going to react in a certain way by coming closer and closer to me. That is the reward for being the husband I'm supposed to be.
Now if I made changes to myself and she kept being the way she is now....yeah, I'm sure I'd resent that after a while and say enough is enough, but with a "normal" reaction from her to my new behavior, it will reward me with the strength to carry on.

That was kind of a ramble and really not important to anyone but my wife and I, but I think she actually took some of that in and chewed on it.

We did talk quite a bit last night about a lot of different things. We touched on her continued relationship with the OM and how that is affecting me. She still never came right out and said "yes we are still in contact" even though I asked her point blank. Her response was "why do you feel that you need to know? What good will it do you?"
Then she turned the tables on me. She said that she felt that she couldn't "trust" me with information now that I'm in contact with OMsW. My wife doesn't want me to tell the other girl things that are shared with me in private (which I haven't, but she doesn't really believe me). She says that even though I may not have shared any of those things yet, that if I keep in contact with her, it'll be harder and harder for me not to loosen up and pour out to her.
She's got half a point there, which is why I've been reluctant to keep in contact with OMsW in the first place.
She said that unless I stopped my contact with her that she was not going to feel comfortable telling me certain things.

That was the only real downside to things. I'm not sure of how to handle that. She said for me to do what I felt like doing, so she didn't demand anything, just kind of gave an ultimatem.
Honestly, I can see both sides. In all my contact with OMsW, I haven't learned anything that I didn't know already. I haven't had to fill her in on anything because she's finding things out for herself finally. About the only thing that's happening there is that she's treating me like a therapist and asking me how to handle all these situtaions with her husband....which part of me could care less about.
So if I did cut off that contact, I don't feel like I'm out anything personally. I don't know how the other girl would take it, but that's not really my problem.

Any suggestions about that would be appreciated.

We also make some headway about me being able to talk to someone of my choosing. My pastor actually called me last night....I've been filling him in on the general situation without telling him what's happened. I think he knows...I know for sure he suspects and I know a well placed hint would tell him what he needs to know, but I don't want to do that.
Anyway, after talking to him (I had emailed him earlier and he was responding to it) I told my wife some of what he has said and that started a conversation about us possibly talking to him together in the future. Up until now, she's been totally against that idea. She doesn't want someone that's involved in our lives...especially our pastor, knowing what's gone on. The biggest reason is that the OM went to our church up until this came out.
But her biggest hurdle to talking to him (last night anyway) was that she didn't feel he'd have the time to devote to us on a weekly basis.
I see that as progress. I made my case that I had rather talk to someone I know and trust and someone I know cares for us. Granted it might be a little awkward at first telling someone you've known for years about things like this, but I think in the long run it would be best.

So for the evening anyway, I feel that there was some progress. Whether things will be that way tonight....guess I'll see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now if I made changes to myself and she kept being the way she is now....yeah, I'm sure I'd resent that after a while and say enough is enough, but with a "normal" reaction from her to my new behavior, it will reward me with the strength to carry on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will not get a "normal" reaction until after she cuts off contact with the OM AND goes through withdrawal, which, incidentally, is why it makes a difference to you whether or not she is still in contact with him.

So tell the OM's wife about the MB site (point her to the articles, not the discussion board) and the divorcebusting.com site, and say that further contact between you is not helping your relationship with your wife, so you will no longer speak to her.

I do know that for now, changes in me will bring mixed reactions from her. From gratitude to anger, and I'm fine with that.
The basis of our talk last night was in the future when they are no longer in contact and we are actively working to fix our marriage.

I know that my goal in life now is to pull them apart from each other. I know that until that happens, nothing is really going to change. It will from day to day, but not in a real way.

Good morning High_Road,
I trust from your comments that you are doing well this morning.

Here are more comments on boundaries - this post is in connection with plan B, but you can probably apply some of it to plan A if your W will agree to it, and you are correct in saying that you can't make her do anything, you can just work on you.
Cerri on boundaries
Go down to cerri's post about half way down.

One of the almost universal problems I see on the forum is the tendency to change your plan from day to day depending on how the WS reacts.

It goes something like this:
&#8220; My W told me today that there is no chance, than she doesn&#8217;t love me, and things will never work, so I told her to go to He$$ and I left and drove around all night thinking about things.&#8221;

I don&#8217;t think you will do this, but you get the idea. We tend to react badly to what they say, and what they do on a daily basis.

When you are in plan A, you are in plan A. You stay there until it works, until you know it is not going to work, or until you can&#8217;t take it any longer. Then you go to B.

While you are in plan A, you try not to react to the bad things she says or does. You judge how successful you are by how you work the plan, not by her reaction. This keeps you from thinking about giving up every time she gets mad about something and tells you off. Every time you find out about continued contact it makes you wonder if it will ever work, and hurts your plan A efforts.

So, measure your plan A by how well you do what you planned. If you have a goal to meet two major needs of hers daily, and you do that, give your self an A+ for effort and keep working on it.

This is in the short term, long term you can tell if it is affecting her in a positive or negative way, and change the needs you are meeting if you need to do that, but you keep working the plan. If she goes off the deep end every once in a while, you say &#8220;she&#8217;s having a bad day, I&#8217;ll keep working the plan,&#8221; not &#8220; I can&#8217;t do this any more, it won&#8217;t ever work.&#8221;

You are on the right track, listen to what she says, and come back for translation. Sometimes they are just blowing smoke when they complain, and sometimes they are giving you valuable information you can use to fine tune your plan.

When your wife says she won&#8217;t tell you about continued contact, and that she can&#8217;t trust you, that is blowing smoke. It means &#8220; you are not important enough to me to know the truth, and I have something to hide.&#8221; This assumes that you don&#8217;t start to LB when you find something bad.

You need to remind her that she has to go out of her way to show NC if this is going to work, and until she is willing to do that you can&#8217;t trust her. If she wants trust back, she has to earn it, and right now she won&#8217;t even tell the truth and give you a straight answer. Read the part about trust again in SAA so you can explain it to her when this comes up again. You don&#8217;t have to be mean to her but there will be no recovery until she restores trust and comes clean about EVERYTHING. It takes two - and you can tell her that.

Hope this helps.

SS