SS: great answer. I also want to point out that her comments are CLASSIC comments from someone who has given until they can't give anymore. I was there once, so I can empathise. HR, you need to tell her that you want to make her happy with "doing the right thing" - no, don't put it that way - happy with...staying married. Happy because the marriage will be different and better than it was before. It will, in Harley parlance, keep her Taker happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The bottom line is that you can't reason with someone that feels like she is feeling right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true! Thankfully I usually don't try to. It's just that I get pulled into trying to defend myself sometimes. Not really her fault, even if she is trying to do it on some level.

Don't worry about putting words in my mouth....I think I have yet to quote anything I've been told. Paraphrase maybe, but not quote.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll probably read through that about a hundred times so I'll have something in mind for next time.
It does sound familiar to some things I've already said. I guess just knowing that the best I can do is keep saying the same thing over and over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't try and teach her until she is ready to learn, and that may still be a ways away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something I have to take to heart. Again, when I feel guilty of doing that is when I feel that she's asking me for my opinion. I don't feel that I should ignore that, but this usually happens when I give it (not always).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there are positive things to be glad about. Remember, run your plan and meet needs daily no matter what she says. Be steady, be kind. Care for, and protect her even when she won't do it for you. Be emotionally safe for her, a haven against the world. Things will come in time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I do see her reaching out for me to be strong more lately. I take heart in that even though I know I probably shouldn't. I've just gotta focus on being what she will let me be for her and to stop expecting results, even when she prompts the positive actions.

SS, thanks for all the input. I feel less desperate than I have in while, even though things are not the best they've been right now. I find myself checking this post more than I probably should, but I can't help myself. I'm just looking for good suggestions and words of encouragement.

I guess it's just hard for me to fathom how far gone things seem (not feeling sorry for myself, just expressing myself) to be at this point in my life. I feel like I just got started....I just don't feel prepared to deal with such a serious thing so soon.

I don't know what that was supposed to mean....just rambling.

Anyway, thanks for all your time and concern.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">her comments are CLASSIC comments from someone who has given until they can't give anymore.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can testify that is how she feels. I've heard that over and over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you need to tell her that you want to make her happy with "doing the right thing" - no, don't put it that way - happy with...staying married. Happy because the marriage will be different and better than it was before.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, that's almost exactly what I have been saying to her.

Thanks

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

Quick update.

My wife is really in a funk this week. We've done nothing but talk tonight and things have stayed very nice. No anger, not any digging up of the past to speak of, nothing much unpleasant except the topic.

She says that she's cut off contact with the OM. To be totally honest with you, I'm not exactly sure why she did it. Not really for the reason I would have preferred. And that being that she saw her mistake and wanted things to work between us and knew that nothing could happen with him in the picture.
But at this point, I'll take NC any way I can get it.

I'm trying to remember some good topics of conversation, but my memory is failing me. I think I'm getting tired.
At one point she told me that what she has been feeling....the back and forth and back and forth and indecision and everything else...she said, there's no way this can be normal. I feel like a complete lunatic! I feel like I'm going crazy!
I don't remember the whole conversation, but I assured her that she wasn't going crazy, but I thought she was on the right track by sticking to NC. I told her that I truly believed that if she could put some time and distance between her and OM that she could begin to look at things in a different light (that's true isn't it????).

She keeps going back and forth. She says that she doesn't know if she's really ready to give OM up. That she still thinks that he has a life to offer her that she may very well want. Why should she throw that away just to see if things can be right between us?
My point is why should she throw us away just to see if things can be good between her and OM.

Anyway, I was constantly praying for God to guide my words and give me wisdom in everything I said. I did find myself taking a few breaths and really thinking about my replies as I was talking.
I didn't try to reason with her, and I let her know if I felt I was being backed into a corner with no escape. That only happened once, but she was gracious and let that topic slide with an apology.
I made no excuses and didn't try to "convince" her to stay with me. I told her that I didn't want to guilt her into staying, or take advantage or her fragile emotional state to push her into what I wanted. Yes, I want her to be with me, but I want her to make that decision. I want her to give NC a good shot and give me a chance to prove myself to her. For her to see that I am not the same person that caused her so much pain in the past.
I want her to see that and let her feelings for me overcome the feelings for OM.

She still feels that she probably needs to move out and make her decision without any outside influence (I can't yet think of myself as "outside influence", but oh well). I'm afraid that she may well do that in a few weeks.

Anyway, she was extremely receptive to me tonight as far as conversation goes. It just worries me so much to see her in this fragile state. She just sits around and stares right through things with this horridly sad look on her face. It breaks my heart to see it.

For the record, her therapist did suggest that she see a doctor. They did say that she is suffering from Dysthemia and General Anxiety Disorder. They put her on a mild dosage of Prozac about a week ago. I'm praying that this will level her mood out a bit.

Thanks for listening.

You are right, don't argue, but don't agree with false statememts. Say you love her and want a chance to show it. Say that 100 ways if you have to.

She sounds like she is in withdrawl already. Leave SAA around where she can see it, but don't be blatent.

Do the best you can, convey love. You are right about taking NC any way you can get it. ( except by force) Be glad for the blessing.

We can't give you every answer for every question, you have to pray and think and do what yo can do.

I have to go, and I won't be around for a few days because I am helping with a youth conference the next three days. Read SAA again your self, it will give you some help in knowing what to react too, and what to leave alone. Meet needs, meet needs, meet needs.

One of the problems you have is that you know you were bad before, and you tend to back down from anything she says because of that. Think on that, and things will come to you. Don't be afraid of your ideas and thoughts. Remember that this is a SLOW PROCESS. IT will take months.

Continue to ask her for time to show what you can be. Not too often, but regularly. Don't grovel, stand up and be brave and act like you are going on with a better life with her or without her. Improve your life anyway, no matter what happens.

I need to go, see you when I can.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She sounds like she is in withdrawl already.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I thought that last night. I wonder when exactly she cut off contact.....I should probably try to find out if the moment presents itself. If it was last weekend, I guess 4 or 5 days away from him and the thought of not being able to contact him whenever might have already pushed her to that state.

She actually asked me questions about that last night and I tried to tenderly explain what I knew about it (withdrawal). I felt I was treading on thin ice, but she asked me and I think I did a halfway good job of explaining that to her. I hope it got through on some level. Maybe enough for her to know that what she feels is normal and that she needs to give it time to fade some.

Anyway, I'm hoping and praying that she'll keep it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't be afraid of your ideas and thoughts. Remember that this is a SLOW PROCESS. IT will take months.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true. I'm learning to trust what I feel after I've given in a chance to develop.

I know it will take a while. It's just getting through the ups and downs.

Thanks for the reply. Hope you have (had) a good trip.

Hope you are getting through the lows, and taking strength from the highs to help the rest of the time. I still won't have much time for a day or two, but wanted you to know I care about you.

Steer some of those conversations away from relationship talks into good memory talks, or happy future plan talks. Think about that a little bit, I think you will know why I suggest it. You are smart enough to do that, if you think on it.

Wishing for a nice weekend for both of you.

SS

Actually we had a very good weekend. Not a whole lot of deep conversation.....they popped up from time to time, but it was nothing forced.

Saturday was spent kind of doing our own thing (just how the day worked out unfortunately), but we had a nice evening together.

Sunday....well, Sunday's are kind of interesting any more.
My wife is a really busy person by nature. She is the type that has never really been able to just stop and take time for herself. She's always on the go trying to do for other people. This is a great thing for the most part, but as of late (last year or so) she's really looking like she's burning out. I've tried to tell her that she needs to slow down and try to cut some things out. Take some time for herself and take care of what she needs for herself before jumping in with both feet to do for everybody else.
She realizes this, but has just started trying to do this a bit in the last 6 months or so.

One thing that she's doing (that bothers me) is that one of the first things she'll try to cut out is church. Now, I'm not the type to force church on my wife, but we both grew up in the same type, and for a while, the same church, so we have an exact set of beliefs. Church has always been something that we've shared and enjoyed together.
I know that the A has a good bit to do with why she seems to avoid church at all costs now.....but I'm not exactly sure why. The OM is not there any more....maybe it's conviction?

One thing I know is that our church is very active. Our services have a tendency to run a bit long, and that's a huge complaint of my wife. She doesn't see why things can't be trimmed down and this and that. While I agree, I'm not vocal about that because it's not my call. I can't do anything about that, so why make a fuss and get myself worked up about it?

Anyway, that's usually her excuse. Things will be long and she wants time for herself. She doesn't want to be gone all day on Sunday when she can stay at home and rest.
While I agree that she needs to do that, I don't understand why she can't use one of her off days or Saturday to do that. It's like she purposely keeps herself slammed during the week so that Sunday she can say that she doesn't want to go so she can "have time for herself".

I know I'm sounding kind of ill about that (which I am), but it's nothing that I'll let on to her. I let her know that I'd like her to go with me, but I do not push her about it.
One reason I don't is because she such a joy to be around after she's had a few lazy hours at home to herself. It's like being married to June Cleaver on Sunday afternoons! Lunch is ready when I get home, she's cleaned the house, she's ready to spend every waking second of the afternoon being attentive to me and what I want....it's like she's a different person (or more the person I married anyway).

Then Monday comes and it's back to the roller coaster ride.

I know too, that some of the reason that she doesn't want to go now is that there's the guy at church that knows about the A and who it was with and I know she doesn't want to see him....she's putting that off as long as possible, but this has been going on longer than he has known.

I just can't really figure that part of things out.

Otherwise, we had a good weekend. She said that she felt really good about us and how things had been going. I've really been able to tell a difference in her since she's cut off contact with OM. As far as I know, she's held to that. Granted, I can't vouch for her time at work, but I know she hasn't called from our house or from her cell. So I feel good about that.

Oh...I also ordered a few books last week. Some things that were suggested here....Torn Assunder, The State of Affairs and another called Surviving Infedelity.
I got them the end of the week (ordered them online) and brought them home. My wife asked what I had and I showed her the books and put them on my desk until I had time to start on them.
Since then she's already finished one and has started on another. I said nothing to her about her reading them, she just picked them up.
She's been reading parts to me that she feels that apply to her....things about recovery for the WS and things like that.

One thing she said yesterday that stuck with me is that how everything she reads says that things with her and OM would not have much of a chance of ever working out. It's a bit awkward to talk about because she's really not been the one to spur conversation on the topic, but she's been a chatterbox about it lately.

Anyway, I see that as a positive thing because I think she's seeing some things that I wouldn't be able to tell her without setting something off. It was completely unintended, but very welcome.

Any other books I could leave laying around? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ June 02, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

As far as other books, don't go to far to fast with her. Let her digest what she has and make sure she is coming along before you give her more. Continue to date, and meet needs. You should be doing something daily to meet known needs, even if it looks like it has no effect. She does notice, even if she acts like she does not. ( and from what you say, she is responding anyway.)

I'm away for a few days again starting Tues afternoon. I don't think you need much help now anway, but wanted you to know I don't ignore you on purpose if I don't answer for a few days.

SS

I was kidding about leaving other books laying around (sort of). I don't want to flood her with info....she's gleaning from the books she's reading now...just hte fact that she's doing that on her own is an encouragement to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does notice, even if she acts like she does not. ( and from what you say, she is responding anyway.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she does notice things. The last several days she's rarely gone a day without telling me how great she thinks I've handled this situation. How she feels that I've shown her love and care that she doesn't deserve. She says sometimes that she's in awe of the fact that I can still look at her and want her after what's been done. That she does see the changes that I've made. That I don't seem like the same person any more....she feels that I've matured greatly.
It makes me uncomforatable for someone else to toot my horn for me (even my own wife), but hearing her say that she sees these things is an encouragement.

When I step back and look at just the last week I see so many things that seem to be small forward steps. I don't want to get all hyped up over anything at this point because I still half expect things to get worse before they're better...but just the things she says...they're so different from the last few months.
Even when she says things like she doesn't want to stay with me and down the road feel like she settled for me, or that she still feels that she could have a future with OM. When she says those things now, there's not near as much conviction in her voice as there was 2 weeks ago or more. It's a noticable difference.

Anyway, don't think that I don't need any help....I feel that things are stabalized for the time being, but keep a check here when you have the chance.

Thanks.

Did you ever get "Surviving an Affair"? Reading that together (we either read aloud to each other or sat next to each other and read the same pages together, then talked about them) with my wife was a great help to us both.

Yes. Actually I've had that book almost from the beginning. I had read HNHN last year and knew of the book from that. It was the first thing I knew to read.

She has read it too. We haven't read it together, but we have discussed the book and alot of the ideas and suggestions found there. It has allowed us to be on the same page in what needs to happen next.

As a quick update, things have been fairly quiet this week. I don't know exactly what to think of that, but it's not like we've been avoiding each other. We've spent most every spare minute together and we haven't kept our conversation light or anything. We've talked about whatever happens to come up, and those have been pretty heavy subjects at times.

I've been trying to steer the conversation towards what is waiting for us in the future (together) and what we can be doing now instead of hashing the past (she's really doing much better in that regard lately).
I don't know if the medication she's on is doing the trick, or if her being out of contact with OM is clearing her head some or a combination of both.

At any rate, there's not much to say right now....which is a welcome relief to the last several weeks!

Spend some of your time being romantic, not discussing heavy stuff. What are some of her dreams right now? NO, NO, things not related to marriage, didn't I just say to stay away from heavy stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you don't know her dreams, find out and start helping her reach them. We all have them early in life, but many of us loose them somehow trying to make life work. See if you can help her, she will love you for it, and yes, that is a hint.

SS

SS,

We're on the same wavelength. This is something I've been trying to work on for a little while now.
Encouraging her with her wants and dreams (for herself) is something that I have always been truly slack in. One of the bigger complaints about me that she's had. She always felt that I was dragging her down or not putting enough stock into her wants and wishes (which was true).

I'm trying to change myself in that area. She's always wanted to stay home from work, so we're discussing ways for that to happen for her. Things like that are frequent topics of conversation, and things that seem to make her stop and think.

Relationship talk is....well, it's brought up fairly regularly, but I try not to be the one that brings it up. If she wants to talk, I'll talk.

I think it means you are ahead of me. Told you you didn't need much help. ( I know we all need it, but I do think highly of your ability.)

Have a NICE weekend. Go have some fun.

SS

Yeah, yeah...build me up.

The weekend has been pretty good so far. Been very busy with some church work Saturday & Sunday, so the time has kind of flown by, but we were able to spend quite a bit of it together, which was nice.

She said some things the last few days that points to more progress. Things like her pointing out my good qualities and reasons that she would want to stay with me (it's just good to know there are some <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

There's really been no "threats" of leaving or using those types of things against me. It's still very obvious that she's undecided, but I think she's starting to lean in my direction more lately. We'll see where that goes.

Again, keep us in your thoughts and prayers this coming week and next....we'll be on vacation (very much needed vacation) and I am really praying that it will be something that can bring us closer together...but i know Satan would have us drive each other nuts the whole time. It can go either way.

Well, we're back from the Bahamas and things went very well IMO.

There was very little relationship talk, and the times there were was when she would bring it up.

I was busy for the better part of the trip working, and she had alot of time to rest and relax (something she's needed since this whole ugly mess came out).

I guess one reason that we seemed to get along so well was that we didn't spend a ton of time together. I worked for a good part of the day and we would spend some of the afternoon and the evenings together. More time than we have together at home, but not like "normal" vacation where we're together from sunup to sundown.

There were a number of times that we'd have time together that she would say things that really pointed to her "deciding" to stay with me. Just questions like "Do you really think we can make it together?" or "How sure are you about me/us?"....things like that.
We spent a couple of hours one night sitting a deserted beach just talking about us and we cried and expressed feelings and after that she said that she had never felt so close to me before and that she loved the time we had spent together.

Overall, I think the time away really did us good. Of course when we got home we got into it a few times (nothing major...I think we were just tired from the trip), but we've had a great day together today.

I'm really wondering what I do now? I guess still do the same things I've been doing (and not doing) because they seem to be having good results.
It's just that sometimes I want to ask her things about her feelings and struggles.
Since she told me a few weeks ago that she had cut off contact with OM, I've been wanting to ask her if she's stuck to that, but something has stopped me. Not sure if it's the possibility that she'll give me bad news, or that I just should leave it alone for now. Any advice there?

One thing she asked me while we were gone was something like if "we" decide to work things out (like I didn't make my mind up 4 months ago), if I'm going to want to rehash all the issues that we've already talked about and discussed. She wasn't really clear, but I guess she wanted to know if I was going to want to discuss the details of the A again. It sounds like she's afraid that I will and she's not too sure about that. I don't really know how to take that.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts and prayers. We had a great week together.....I can probably say that it was the best vacation that we've ever had together, even with all the turmoil of late.

I see you posted, and I almost left without a comment to you.

I see a lot of good. If you can continue to meet her needs, I think you have a good chance.

You seem more sure, less upset. She seems to be happy to continue to try.

Are you happy with the progress?

SS

SS,

I was searching for this post so I could add to it today and I saw that you had replied. I don't know how I missed it.

Am I happpy with the progress? Well, guess I'll update and answer that afterwards.

The last couple of weeks have been very good. We've spent some quality time together, and have been able to have some sane relationship talks. Our talks do usually stay away from the A now....and I'm not sure if I'm the one steering away from that or if it's her. I know that's kooky, but when I stop and think about it, I can't tell.
Most of the talk centers around root problems, which is good, because those are the things the got us where we are today, but I still have so many loose ends that have to do with the A that I feel like I'm skipping over some really important things sometimes.

When that topic does happen to come up, it's always on her end and it's always in passing. Example, last night she asked me if she could ask me a question. I said yes, and she asked if I thought that the reason she has wanted so much to leave me of late (late being the last year or so) is because she had an A. (my answer was no BTW)
When it does come up, it seems to be thought of as a very minor issue on her end. Kind of just something that happened because of everything else that was wrong in our marriage. It's like it's not that big a deal any more.
She's never said that, but I get that feeling from her.

I still have no idea if anything is going on between them now. Since she told me several weeks ago that she had cut off contact, I've heard nothing else about it. I still have the feeling that I can't really ask her about it since she didn't cut off contact for me, but for herself. I don't know if I'm wrong in that area or not.
I've had no reason to suspect that anything is still going on, but the way things are, I'm also not getting any guarantees that they aren't either, so I'm kind of lost.

Again, overall the last few weeks have been good and when I stop and look back to 2 or 3 months ago, I can really see the changes that have taken place. But I know my W still feels the same way. She's been a tad more vocal the past few days about thinking that we're still headed down different paths in life and that she doesn't think she can be happy with me. It makes me wonder what has changed (if anything).

I just don't know how to take the fact that there's no change in the way she feels. At least not that she'll admit to. We're having a great time together and we're really close and spending more time together than we ever have before (we're going on a short trip to the mountains tonight). I guess I just didn't think that her coming around would be this gradual.

Am I missing something? Or is this the normal way things go? Am I getting the wool pulled over my eyes again?

One thing that started a small argument last night is something that has always been a problem with us. When things go wrong in my life (unexpected, expensive repairs, etc), I tend to get overwhelmed by it temporarily. Until I have time to really think things through and figure out a plan, I can really come across like it's the end of the world for me.
Last night I got home and found that my basement had flooded. I'm in the midst of finishing it out and that has been my worst fear since I bought this house. I didn't really get mad, but for a while (10 or 15 minutes) I was really unsure of what to do. I could feel the emotion getting out of control and I couldn't figure out what to do (she's the more levelheaded in crisis) and it took me that time to get myself under control. After that, I did what I had to do to get things fixed and am fine with it now.

Last night, she told me that she still couldn't bear being with me when I get overwhelmed like that. I know it's always been a problem, but it's something I'm determined to kick....problem is that it's hard to put new behavior into practice unless a bad circumstance comes up....happily that isn't every day, so I know I'm going to go through some trial and error. I feel that she's not giving me a fair shake to change my reaction. Sometimes I feel that if I don't adjust my reactions immediately, she won't give me credit for anything.
I know she's had a problem with that in me for 6 years now, but I can't get her to see that I am truly trying now. It's like all the other times of trying and failing have eaten away at every last bit of patience she has with me (which is understandable in some ways).

Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling, but I just don't know what I should expect any more. I know that every day can't be rosy and that I need to expect setbacks. I guess last night was just a major LB in her eyes, but in my eyes, I see that I handled things alot better than I would have a year ago.

Is this the normal progression of things? Is it always this slow?
It's not like I'm expecting her to just up and say, "hey, things are OK now. We can get back to life!". I just want to know if she even cares to try. I feel like my life has been put on pause while she figures out what she wants, but she never seems to get any closer to deciding what she wants to do. She just goes over the same ground over and over and over and over and over again.

Am I just losing patience?

So in answer to your question....yes, I've been fairly happy with the progress lately, but it has been much slower than I thought it might be. I guess I'm just ready for some kind of turning point.

***edit***

You know, here I am, saying I want to see a turning point, and I neglected to mention a positive thing that happened last night.

I've been pushing some joint MC for a while now, and even though she has not out and said "no" to it, she's made it clear that she feels that with her not knowing what she wants to do and going back and forth between staying and leaving that it would be a waste of time and money.

She said last night that she thought maybe it was time that we started some MC together. She said that it might help her see if the differences we have can be worked out or not.

So I guess I need to be more attentive to the victories when they occur, huh? I wasn't discounting it, but I've had so much on my mind the last 15 hours or so, that kind of got lost in the shuffle.

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

SS, I was searching for this post so I could add to it today and I saw that you had replied. I don't know how I missed it.

I figure you'll post when you are ready, after all, it's your thread. I don't worry about that part, but I do worry about, and care about you personally.

Our talks do usually stay away from the A now....and I'm not sure if I'm the one steering away from that or if it's her.

You do need discuss it to get past it. I think you understand that, but I don't think she does. Perhaps it can come out in counseling.

Most of the talk centers around root problems, which is good, because those are the things the got us where we are today, but I still have so many loose ends that have to do with the A that I feel like I'm skipping over some really important things sometimes.

Root problem discussion is good, but as mentioned above, and as you say, important things get skipped. Once we talked about this in a kind of round about way. You made some very big mistakes, but how about her? If you discuss YOUR problems and fix them, that still leaves HER problems. Both need to be discussed.

It does hurt, healing often does. If you have ever had surgery, you know what I mean. Your marriage is going to have to go through that to survive. All the bad parts on BOTH sides have to be cut out for healing to take place.

...............she asked if I thought that the reason she has wanted so much to leave me of late (late being the last year or so) is because she had an A. (my answer was no BTW)

I think that has a lot to do with it. ( I think you have read SAA?) It's a way to justify the A. You know, "things must have been terrible or I couldn't have had an A, in fact they must have been so bad that my only solution is leaving him. "
I know there were other factors, but I believe that was one of the factors in her desire to leave.

When it does come up, it seems to be thought of as a very minor issue on her end. Kind of just something that happened because of everything else that was wrong in our marriage. It's like it's not that big a deal any more. She's never said that, but I get that feeling from her.

Dr Harley has reported that some marriages heal without remorse on the part of the WS, but it seems to be much easier if they have guilt, and work on their problems like you are working on yours.

I still have no idea if anything is going on between them now. Since she told me several weeks ago that she had cut off contact, I've heard nothing else about it. I still have the feeling that I can't really ask her about it since she didn't cut off contact for me, but for herself. I don't know if I'm wrong in that area or not. I've had no reason to suspect that anything is still going on, but the way things are, I'm also not getting any guarantees that they aren't either, so I'm kind of lost.

That's normal. Without a NC agreement, it takes much longer for recovery - for both of you. It may be hard to discuss it now, or at all, knowing how you got her to stay.

Again, overall the last few weeks have been good and when I stop and look back to 2 or 3 months ago, I can really see the changes that have taken place. But I know my W still feels the same way. She's been a tad more vocal the past few days about thinking that we're still headed down different paths in life and that she doesn't think she can be happy with me.

Remember the four rules of a successful marriage.
Four rules
Care. protection, honesty, and time.
I don't know, but the feel I get is that you need to work on honesty and time. It will take much longer than a few months, but I'll cover that below. Lets see, you have been spending more time with her, but is it 15 hours a week? If so, continue, if not, take another look. I think trips to the mountains are very good.

You need to learn how to be honest about your feelings, or you may reconcile under a set of rules that make it impossible for you to be happy in the "new" marriage. It has to be a two way thing. Right now, you make it safe for her to talk, but it's not safe for you to talk. That needs to be addressed. I don't know if I can help much there, but MC may be able to help, and I know the Harleys could.

It makes me wonder what has changed (if anything). I just don't know how to take the fact that there's no change in the way she feels. At least not that she'll admit to. We're having a great time together and we're really close and spending more time together than we ever have before (we're going on a short trip to the mountains tonight). I guess I just didn't think that her coming around would be this gradual. Am I missing something?

There may be renewed contact, that would explain it, but also, it does take time.
At our house, ( and we had no A) it has taken a year and a half. We are in pretty good shape now, but at the 9 month mark I was ready to hang it up - because it seemed nothing had gotten better after I worked on it hard for that long.

Or is this the normal way things go?

Normal, but you should ask her about contact.
" I seem to sense a change in you, have you resumed contact, or is it my imagination?"
I don't know the best way, sometimes there is not a good way.

Am I getting the wool pulled over my eyes again?

That may very well be, and I think you ought to know. In some ways, it is easier to plan A if you know about contact, because it explains why they don't seem to react. You could ask her point blank what her feelings are, but sometimes that prods them to articulate negative feelings that they would forget about if left alone. It has taken me a long time to learn how to read my W, and I still make mistakes. This last week, she seemed so upset and I finally asked her about it. She laughed, and said "I have heart burn, and the pain is killing me." Turns out she has an ulcer, but I thought it was me she was upset with. Learn how to talk to her, you'll need to anyway if you stay together. I have learned a lot about that by reading here. There is a thread on Just Found Out that may help you to talk to her.
Here-

Cerri's thread and discussion on how to get across your feelings.

I know that it doesn't directly apply to what you are asking, but I think it will give you enough ideas to be worth reading.

One thing that started a small argument last night is something that has always been a problem with us. When things go wrong in my life (unexpected, expensive repairs, etc), I tend to get overwhelmed by it temporarily. Until I have time to really think things through and figure out a plan, I can really come across like it's the end of the world for me. Last night I got home and found that my basement had flooded. I'm in the midst of finishing it out and that has been my worst fear since I bought this house. I didn't really get mad, but for a while (10 or 15 minutes) I was really unsure of what to do.

All of us come to marriage with strengths and weaknesses. Unless we hide something on purpose, the other agrees to live with us anyway, and to help us. That's part of what marriage is. I admit that we often find out things long after we marry, but I think that's life. If she is looking for a way to leave, then she'll find reasons. If she wants to stay, she will work with you.
Now, we can change, but you may never be as good as making decisions in the hole as - say an NFL quarterback.
You need to find a nice way to say, "Honey, if you want to leave, then leave, but if we are going to work on this marriage, then lets cut the crap, and work on it. "

Lets see, how's this?
Honey, I do have problems, I am not a perfect man. I am hoping that you will commit 100% to working on our marriage with me, and that we can agree that neither of us are perfect and that we will need to help each other. I admit I need help, will you help me?

I don't suggest you say it that first way, but I wanted to get the point across. MC may be able to help with that too. I hope you have a good MC picked out. That 2nd example is a lot better, but just an example. Work on this kind of stuff, because good communication really helps.

I feel that she's not giving me a fair shake to change my reaction. Sometimes I feel that if I don't adjust my reactions immediately, she won't give me credit for anything. I know she's had a problem with that in me for 6 years now, but I can't get her to see that I am truly trying now. It's like all the other times of trying and failing have eaten away at every last bit of patience she has with me (which is understandable in some ways).

You don't bring this stuff up when either of you is angry, you bring it up when you are happy. "Remember when the basement flooded, and I kind of fell apart. You seemed angry with me and I wanted to comment on that..................." Tell your feelings, ask for help in your improvement.

Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling, but I just don't know what I should expect any more. I know that every day can't be rosy and that I need to expect setbacks. I guess last night was just a major LB in her eyes, but in my eyes, I see that I handled things a lot better than I would have a year ago. Is this the normal progression of things? Is it always this slow?

As far as I can see, it is always this slow. I have seen people go into recovery in a few weeks but then come back in 6 months with a crisis again. It happens this way. If you started out now to become an Olympic weigh lifter, how long would it take? It's kind of the same thing.

It's not like I'm expecting her to just up and say, "hey, things are OK now. We can get back to life!". I just want to know if she even cares to try. I feel like my life has been put on pause while she figures out what she wants, but she never seems to get any closer to deciding what she wants to do.

If you have read much here, you will see this play out over and over. I think TM94 is a good example. He worked a good plan A but his W was looking to move out and he was ready to give up, because it seemed like there was improvement, but she kept saying there was no way and she would move as soon as she could afford it. He asked over and over, and she said the same thing.
Finally one day he thought it was done and went out for the day. When he came home she surprised him by saying that she didn't want to move, and she wanted to stay married to him. He is on today wondering the same as you, when does it get better, and how long does it take.
It does take time.

She just goes over the same ground over and over and over and over and over again. Am I just losing patience? So in answer to your question....yes, I've been fairly happy with the progress lately, but it has been much slower than I thought it might be.

She sounds stuck. Each trip to the mountains should help. She probably doesn't feel "passion" for you yet, and so she is wondering. Has she read SAA? It would help her understand her feelings, and how it takes time. It seems like you said she picked it up once but didn't read it.

I guess I'm just ready for some kind of turning point.

Think about this, she hasn't left yet. That may be all you get for a while, but I think hundreds of people on MB would be glad for the chance you have got. Count your blessings.

She said last night that she thought maybe it was time that we started some MC together. She said that it might help her see if the differences we have can be worked out or not. So I guess I need to be more attentive to the victories when they occur, huh? I wasn't discounting it, but I've had so much on my mind the last 15 hours or so, that kind of got lost in the shuffle.

My basement flooded about a year ago, I still have nightmares about it.

Find a good MC, leave if they don't work. Somewhere ( on this site I think, ) there are a list of questions to ask your MC to see if they will help you the way they should. Look for them if you have time.

This is a long and difficult journey. Think of it as one of the 49'ers crossing the great plains in a covered wagon. Something like that. An epic journey, but worth the trip even if you don't find gold. I hope you are learning things about yourself too.

Remember to be brave, strong, funny and act like you will be OK even if you don't always feel like you will. Take care of her like she wants you to do.

There are lots of ways to get to her too. You could wait until she expresses doubt again, and say " Well, I hope you want to stay with me, but I plan on improving me so much that if you don't want me, lots of other women will." Then smile and wink at her. I don't' know if this is the right one for you, but do you start to see? This can be fun too. You don't have to live in fear of every word you say, and every thing you do. I think this is part of what they miss, because we are afraid and it makes us clam up sometimes. Go out on a limb sometimes. Make her laugh.

Did that help?

SS

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>