Good afternoon High,
( I can't give the standard greeting any more, it just starts a chain reaction.)

I am home for a day or two, and thought I would check in. I am giving too much time to these posts when I ought to be working. I suppose I can always come in on Saturday ( ahhhhh, not that again.)

No, I know you weren't serious, but I don't want to start thinking that I don't need help/encouragement any more. I know that a lot of the real tests are yet to come and that we have a long road ahead of us. But I am encouraged by the recent happenings and I'm really feeling that we will get the chance to move into recovery and beyond.

I also need help, or I begin to forget. I get it from coming here and reading the bad stories. That could be me if I don't do it right, and I know it.

I was thrilled by something that she told me this morning.....
She goes for a walk every morning before work. I try to go with her whenever possible, but sometimes it's just not possible and this morning she went by herself. She sometimes prefers to go on her own because she says it gives her a chance to talk out loud to God.
Anyhow, when she got in from her walk today, she looked kind of preoccupied. I asked her if anything was wrong and she said that she felt that God had shown her some things while she was out. That she needs to learn to be happy and content with what she has been given and not always try to change things up so much (something that's always been a problem with us).
She didn't go into much detail....said she needed to figure it out for herself before she tried to explain it ot me. But it's good to know that she's hearing from God again.

God has a way with knowing just what people need to understand to change themselves. I am glad for this experiance she had. Sometimes we need to change our circumstances, but sometimes we need to learn to be happy with what we have. Sometimes we expect too much of others and not enough of ourselves.

You will be learning all your life, be glad you have the chance you have to do it BEFORE your W is completly gone.

I commend you for your progress. Again, I'll be in and out for a while, but get back to you when I can.

Let's see, we have 8 children. Sometimes it takes me a while to answer questions. Three maried, and one close to it. Our youngest are twin girls 10 years old. Surpprise, surpprise, but it's been fun.

I still pray for you. I can see you are happier, and I am glad.

SS

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I think another corner may have been rounded in the last few days.

My W continues to make progress and think more and more clearly about things.
Just last night I asked her if she really felt as differently as she came across lately and she said that she really did.

When she first started really giving us a shot (a month or so ago), she struggled so much at first. Said that she felt that she wasn't strong enough to say no to all the things she felt. I kept trying to encourage her and let her know that it would get easier with time. That was something that she would dispute most of the time.
Last night she told me that I was right. That it takes time and that she does feel stronger and more able to handle things. That maybe she did need to get through an initial "withdrawal" period. Now she is able to look at things differently. The change is amazing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still pray for you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what I need at this point. Thank you so much.

I am so glad things are doing better for you. I like success stories. (understatement)

What to do you think of Plan A now? Could you comment for others benifit? Has your W said anything about your efforts lately? I mean, not counting the comments like " why didn't you do this months ago? Has she given you any thank you's or said she is happy for the turnaround? Or is she still confused?

Also, do you have any idea what is happening with the other couple?

SS

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like success stories.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As do I....I'm just a little scared to call it that yet. Yes, I do consider every day a success, but to say the whole story is one.....I pray for that every day, but time will tell.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What to do you think of Plan A now? Could you comment for others benifit?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's a definite plus. Sometimes I wonder how much credit to give what. I feel that there were more than one fronts to this battle. One was fought by my via Plan A, another was my wife's IC and the other was her medication. I give credit all around to her finally coming down off the fence and trying to get comfortable on my side, but as to what finally "did it"......who knows? It's honestly not that important to me....I just want things to continue in the way that they are.
Granted, I know that my actions are the biggest reason that things are how they are. But that was started way before I knew of Plan A. That was from the get-go. But my continuation once I came here and learned the whys and why-nots...things got on the right track from there.

In short, yes, Plan A does work. Of course, in my case it's worked the way I wanted it to from the beginning. That was bringing me and my W back together in a way that we've never experienced before.
I know that isn't the only way it can be a success. Learning how to handle yourself and live your life regardless....that's the main point of it all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has your W said anything about your efforts lately? I mean, not counting the comments like " why didn't you do this months ago? Has she given you any thank you's or said she is happy for the turnaround? Or is she still confused?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is continually saying things to let me know that she's pleased with how things are. The "why now" stuff is a rarity now (thank God) and has only happened once or twice in the last month. I can see that she's really burdened about learning to live her life how it is instead of trying to constantly change things more to her liking.
She told me the other night that she felt that for so long she had been working so hard to create change in her life....to get things the "way she wanted them"...to ao point where she felt that she could be "happy" with them, that she was letting her actual life pass her by. She wasn't participating in her day to day life because she was so focused on making things different. She said that she's tired of that and she needs to learn to live her life instead of letting it pass her by.
She's teaching me quite a bit about things too......

So yeah, she's very happy with the turnaround and is usually very vocal about it.

On a side note, we both were kind of saying the same thing last night. There was something that neither one of us could really put our finger on. I finally said that I felt that everything that was happening with us was great. It was all good, but the excitement of that has started to wear off. It's almost like we need to go up another step to keep the "newness" going. Not sure if that makes any sense....I know things won't always feel new or ultra-exciting, but it's nice when it is.
Only thing is...I don't know what's missing. I'm not sure where we need to go next.
Granted, I did finally find us a MC to see together. He wants to see us seperately once....I'm going next Friday, then he'll see my W soon after, then we can get on a normal schedule (if he's right for us). So maybe that will give us something to work on together.
As for her still being confused....I don't see that much any more. She's told me that she doesn't struggle with her thoughts (of OM) near as much as she did. There are times that she will tell me that she needs to be with me and I've learned that's her way of telling me that she's having a hard time (or may be coming up on a hard time). So we try to diffuse situations like that before they become problems. Last night was one of them. We spend some one on one time together and I could tell she felt much better about things then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, do you have any idea what is happening with the other couple?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Short answer, No. Nothing of substance anyway.
I saw them last Tuesday....it was kind of ironic. I had a doctor's appointment, so I took the day off. My W also has Tuesdays off, so we decided to spend the day together. We planned to go see a movie and eat and just have a day of fun together.
Anyway, we were driving towards the movie theater, and were both kind of quiet at that moment, and I saw a vehicle that looked like theirs. Of course, that's another story....Every time I see a wine colored Explorer, I want to hit it head on....then I saw the vanity plate on the front and knew it was him/her/them. Amazingly, that's only the 2nd time we've passed them on the street in 6 months (amazing because we live 2.1 miles from them and use all the same stores and restuarants etc. as they do). Anyway, of course I didn't say anything to my W. I just saw them go by (I don't think they saw me) and was quiet.
I figured my wife had seen them too, because she was quiet for a second too. Next thing out of her mouth was something about their son (their 3 year old had to have some minor surgery last week) and his surgery being the next day (she knows that because we go to church with OM's step-mother...yet another story).
I figured she said that because she saw them....we usually don't just talk about things concerning them for no reason....not sure why, it's just kind of a taboo thing I guess. Anyway, she said that and I was quiet. She asked what was wrong and I said that I just didn't need that today. She thought I was talking about her saying something about their son. I said, no, we just passed them. Anyway, I found out that she didn't even see them and her saying that when she did was a complete fluke. It was really ironic to say the least.
Not that it matters, but that's the only thing I've heard or seen of them in months. I've not heard anything from his W again (thankfully). They're still together, so that's a good thing. And maybe their son having surgery will pull them together somewhat.
My W mentioned that maybe we could pray for him (their son) and that maybe through this it would help them come together. I really didn't know how to take that. To me anything from my W about them is not taken very well (I don't say anything, just the way I think). But I did pray for him that night when we went to bed. I think it meant something to her.....not for them, but that I would even mention them in a prayer. She said something about that the next morning and how impressed she was that I did that.
So I guess overall, it was a good thing.

Other than that, I have no idea what's going on with them. I had to email OM about a month or so ago to get some information (church related) that I needed. It was short and to the point. Nothing personal at all.
Sometimes I wonder if I should ask how things are, but I guess things are going well enough without doing that.

So things are still going well, even though sometimes it feels that there's something missing. I just want to find what that is.

Well, we're still plodding along. Some days are really good, some days aren't as good, but thankfully there haven't been any really bad days for a while.

The biggest hurdle I'm seeing right now is that my W has made the head decision to stay and work on things, but her heart hasn't fully followed yet. She feels that the heart decision should be automatic. It's difficult to get her to see that with time it is. The difference between what she's thinking and what is true is the time part.

Anyway, I don't feel like we're on the brink any more. We start JC on Friday, so I feel that's another step in the right direction. We've also got a church marriage retreat we're going on next weekend. I know that's not really going to apply a whole lot to us and the situation we're in....it'll be more of a general tune up type of thing....but the fact that she agreed to go (especially the way she feels about church right now) is a huge boost to me.

Hello, Hi.
Having been gone for a while, I am just getting around to see everyone.

So things are still going well, even though sometimes it feels that there's something missing. I just want to find what that is.

It's hard to put into words, isn't it. Is it knowing that things will work long term? Is it knowing who you are and where you are going? Is it being sure you are doing all you can do?
Is it all of these things? More later about this.

Well, we're still plodding along. Some days are really good, some days aren't as good, but thankfully there haven't been any really bad days for a while.
That sounds like a normal marriage. Really.
It sounds like my marriage. More good days than not so good days, but no really bad ones. I know it's not the same as when you didn't know any better, but you can't go back to that, and if you continue on, one day you will realize that you are pretty happy with the way things are, and your W will too. You will look at each other and laugh, and hug, and kiss, and life will be good.

The biggest hurdle I'm seeing right now is that my W has made the head decision to stay and work on things, but her heart hasn't fully followed yet. She feels that the heart decision should be automatic. It's difficult to get her to see that with time it is. The difference between what she's thinking and what is true is the time part.

It sometimes comes so very gradually that you can't finger the exact time when things go from "maybe" to "no doubts."
One year ago, I was still going nuts wondering if I could ever be happy. November 2002 was the same, and still some doubt in January. ( I started using MB materials in Feb. of 2002, so you can get an idea of how long it was for me.) Now, life is really good. I know she loves me, she knows I love her. We hold hands and giggle sometimes like teens. Being in love is fun, but I can' t say what happened, or when it happened. It was meeting needs, and time.
Think of this as a lifelong project that pays more and more dividends out each year as you go along.
If you had asked me this time last year if I was happy about my marriage, I may have answered that I was happier than I had been in some time, but I may also have said I had doubts, and fears, and some unease about things that I couldn't explain.

Anyway, I don't feel like we're on the brink any more. We start JC on Friday, so I feel that's another step in the right direction. We've also got a church marriage retreat we're going on next weekend. I know that's not really going to apply a whole lot to us and the situation we're in....it'll be more of a general tune up type of thing....but the fact that she agreed to go (especially the way she feels about church right now) is a huge boost to me.

Continue to meet her needs. Put her and God first in your life, and keep them there. If you travel in the right direction, and you don't stop and freeze up, then you always get where you want to go in time. All you have to do is keep moving.
Is that simple or what?

BTW, my W gives back ALMOST as much as I give her now, and for a long time it wasn't that way. It is very close now, and much easier to keep going. If your giver is working overtime and your taker is starving, it does get better. I figure it is my dues for letting things get bad in the first place, but some days I had a hard time with it.

I see recovery - do you?

SS

Hi, I am new to marriage builders. I am entering Plan B but have not written a Plan B letter to my husband. I am asking anyone and everyone out there who has written their own for some samples to see what they should consist of. This is advice from Dr. Steve Harley.
I would like to complete my Plan B letter by Saturday, August 23rd. In case my email address doesn't show up it is: paulschiebel@netzero.net

Thank you very much. I look forward to hearing from you.

PandJwillsurvive

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's hard to put into words, isn't it. Is it knowing that things will work long term? Is it knowing who you are and where you are going? Is it being sure you are doing all you can do?
Is it all of these things? More later about this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still can't put a finger on it. Knowing that things will work.....that is a concern of course, but I don't think it's the void that we're feeling.
Who I am and where I'm going....that might be some of it. This whole ordeal has shaken me up so much, that I'm not only struggling and fighting for my marriage, I'm also questioning if I'm in the place in life I want to be, so I feel I've got the added burden of trying to reorganize the rest of my life at the same time.
Being sure I'm doing all I can do....that's closer than all. May not be it exactly, but it's something.That helps, doesn't it?
Weird thing is that we both started feeling this way about the same time. Just feels like there should be something more. It may just be that we're both impatient for more forward progress than we're getting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think of this as a lifelong project that pays more and more dividends out each year as you go along.
If you had asked me this time last year if I was happy about my marriage, I may have answered that I was happier than I had been in some time, but I may also have said I had doubts, and fears, and some unease about things that I couldn't explain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That makes sense. The problem I have is that these feeling are with my W, not with me. I'm 100% sure about what I want (as far as "we" go anyhow), and am determined not to let anything sway me. She's not there yet. Not that she's on the fence, she has made a decision, but she's just wanting all the doubts and the fears to go away and for her heart to follow suit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that simple or what</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems too simple at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Quite a bit of my frustration now comes from conversations we have at night. There's a certain time at night that a switch gets thrown with my W. She's just no good after a certain time. Not that she can help it, it's just time for her to go to bed. We just sometimes lay in bed at night and talk about things and sometimes while we're talking, her time passes and things just go into the toilet.
Guess I need to learn not to start "us" conversations at night.

Here's a question for you....
How do you feel about making big changes in your self during turbulent times like this? My W has been kicking around going back to school for a good while and is seriously thinking about trying to start first of next year. Is this generally a good idea while things are so up in the air? Would it do her good?
For some reason I just don't have peace about it, but I think it's that at times in the past, she's equated going back to school with gaining her independence from me. Guess it kind of scares me to think about sometimes.

Any ideas?

<small>[ August 21, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

Good evening HI,

Here's a question for you....
How do you feel about making big changes in your self during turbulent times like this? My W has been kicking around going back to school for a good while and is seriously thinking about trying to start first of next year. Is this generally a good idea while things are so up in the air? Would it do her good?
For some reason I just don't have peace about it, but I think it's that at times in the past, she's equated going back to school with gaining her independence from me. Guess it kind of scares me to think about sometimes.

I think the marriage, the family if you will, comes first. You take care of your relationship first, and if anything else is left over, then you consider those other things.

Sometimes going back to school is considering the family first, say if more income is needed, or if a layoff means that re-training is necessarry.

I believe that if she does it no matter what your feelings then........... well, I don't need to say what that means. This is something you need to think out and then tell her your feelings in a nice way, and also why you have them. If you are afraid, then say that, and say why.

As far as having "us" coversations at night, I thought all gals shut down automatically, like my W does. I never dreamed you could actually start talking to them late at night and they would talk back.

SS takes tounge out of cheek and decides to talk straight.

Talk when you can get results. When it helps both of you. Sounds like she is not getting much from late night talks, but you do them cause you need to talk. See if you can figure out how to do it on a regular basis when she is more with it.

I can say that as time goes on, my need for these "us" conversations is going away.I believe it is because I feel so much better about things that don't have to hear her re-assure me so much.

I hope you are still doing well. I wanted to post to you on Friday, but ran out of time.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the marriage, the family if you will, comes first. You take care of your relationship first, and if anything else is left over, then you consider those other things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is my feeling, but it's difficult to get that across sometimes. Not to say, but to get her to understand that I'm not trying to hold her back, I'm just more concerned about our marriage than I am about her finishing school.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes going back to school is considering the family first, say if more income is needed, or if a layoff means that re-training is necessarry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not because it's needed. She started school years back and has kicked herself ever since for not finishing. She wants to do it for the accomplishment. That's one place where we disagree, but I try not to be too vocal about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that if she does it no matter what your feelings then........... well, I don't need to say what that means. This is something you need to think out and then tell her your feelings in a nice way, and also why you have them. If you are afraid, then say that, and say why.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think she'd do it if I voiced a huge objection to it. She wouldn't be happy about it by any means and it would probably cause soem problems, but I seriously doubt she'd do this against my wishes.
Given some more time to heal, she'd probably see things more from my point of view, but we'll see if I get that much time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as having "us" coversations at night, I thought all gals shut down automatically, like my W does. I never dreamed you could actually start talking to them late at night and they would talk back.

SS takes tounge out of cheek and decides to talk straight.

Talk when you can get results. When it helps both of you. Sounds like she is not getting much from late night talks, but you do them cause you need to talk. See if you can figure out how to do it on a regular basis when she is more with it.

I can say that as time goes on, my need for these "us" conversations is going away.I believe it is because I feel so much better about things that don't have to hear her re-assure me so much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The general "us" talks are usually of more help to her than they are for me. That's something I never really cared to discuss "before", but now do regularly whether I feel like it or not. She seems to get a boost from it.
Granted, if the talk turns to the A or I have something specific I need to ask her, then the benefit is mine and she kind of withdraws.
I try not to bring things up unless I feel it's absolutely needed, but there are still times that I want to know things.
What's your take on this? I know that as a BS, I should be able to get whatever info I need for myself. But what about 6 months (or 2 years or whatever) after Dday? Not that I would ever grill her about things again (like I did right after I found out), and really I find that I don't need or want info about what went on during the A (before I knew). The only things I'm still finding the need to know are things that happened after she told me of the A.
Just this weekend I asked her if her and OM had ever seen each other after Dday. She had always led me to believe that they had only talked on the phone. But she confirmed to me that they had seen each other since then. I had the feeling they probably had, but I knew I was going to wonder until I asked.
Granted, that's not the answer I wanted to hear, but since she was honest with me, the answer doesn't bother me. Mainly because it doesn't matter any more, but more than that because it's answered and I can move past it.

When I asked her that question, she answered right away, but was pretty quick to tell me that her IC had told her that she felt that details of the A should not be discussed and hindered the healing of the relationship. How can every counselor have a different opinion of this????? It seems so simple to think that people should know things that they want to know when they have a direct impact on their personal life.

Anyway, that's just something I wondered. I know I have a right to know, but when does it become a hinderance to ask? Again, not anything that happened before I was aware of the situation, but from then to now.

Otherwise I'm doing pretty good. This whole ordeal has taken a bit of a physical toll on me in differing ways....first I couldn't sleep at all, now I'm working on a 2 month long headache that seems to be stress/tension related.
But once I get past all that, things are very good.

That is my feeling, but it's difficult to get that across sometimes. Not to say, but to get her to understand that I'm not trying to hold her back, I'm just more concerned about our marriage than I am about her finishing school.
quote:

Sometimes going back to school is considering the family first, say if more income is needed, or if a layoff means that re-training is necessary.

It's not because it's needed. She started school years back and has kicked herself ever since for not finishing. She wants to do it for the accomplishment. That's one place where we disagree, but I try not to be too vocal about it.

If you WILL support her in school after your marriage is much better, then tell her that. By now (since I have taken so long to get back to you) You may have discussed it already.

" Honey, I really want you to finish school too, but I am much more worried about our marriage right now. What would you think about taking a year or two to get "us" back in shape and then doing school?"

You negotiate together - you love her so you want her to get what she wants, but you worry about time together and stress on your marriage so you tell her your concerns and ask for her help in figuring out how to best make you BOTH happy.

As far as her telling you about the A - if you don't get some facts straight in your mind you can't get closure. I thought you would be in MC by now ? It will be hard for you to get around what her IC is saying without someone else helping you. That's a tough one.

Many people here have said they made a list of questions, let the Ws read it for a day and then had them answer those questions. After that, it was put to rest.

I know I have a right to know, but when does it become a hindrance to ask?

Your W may take it as an LB right off the top. You would know better than I would. If you can live with what you know now then should you ask? Will it come back to haunt you later if you don't find some things out? You have to think about that and answer for yourself. If it needs to be talked about then talk about it and make these very points - that you are afraid that it will come between you again if it is not taken care of. It doesn't matter what her IC says if you need peace of mind.

This whole ordeal has taken a bit of a physical toll on me in differing ways....first I couldn't sleep at all, now I'm working on a 2 month long headache that seems to be stress/tension related. But once I get past all that, things are very good.

Are you improving at measurable rate?

A two month headache sounds serious. Does she understand what you go through and help you? I hope by now it is no longer you getting her through withdrawal, and you getting nothing from her. The fact that you don't come back daily probably means you don't worry about things so much, at least I hope it is that.

You are asking good questions, I can only tell you what my feelings are about all this. You know I am not an expert, just here seeking answers for myself - as you are for you.

Can you say why you and I took so long to realize there was a problem? I think for me, there were no signs that "I" could identify as such. I just went on doing things like "I " wanted to do them, not realizing she had feelings about lots of it that differed from mine. I think they ought to teach communication in school. They think they do sometimes, but not what we need.

We are pretty happy now, hope you are a year from now.

SS

I still think you ought to get an 800 number.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you WILL support her in school after your marriage is much better, then tell her that. By now (since I have taken so long to get back to you) You may have discussed it already.

" Honey, I really want you to finish school too, but I am much more worried about our marriage right now. What would you think about taking a year or two to get "us" back in shape and then doing school?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will, it's just that I don't feel now is the time. It's just hard to get her to see that I'm not just telling her no.
The subject hasn't come up lately, so I'll deal with that when it does.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as her telling you about the A - if you don't get some facts straight in your mind you can't get closure. I thought you would be in MC by now ? It will be hard for you to get around what her IC is saying without someone else helping you. That's a tough one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm back and forth about this. We are in MC now. Just had my 2nd session. We're going seperately right now, but will be moving to JC ASAP. I asked him this morning about that very thing and he said that I should know what I want as long as it's really something I need to know. That I should pray about it and have peace about any questions that I ask to that end.
He did say that he felt now wasn't the time because it will just open the wound back up and make it harder to make progress in counseling. He suggested waiting and getting some MC under our belts and then tackle any lingering issues.

And again, for me, it's not that I want to know every little detail. I really have no real desire to know anything that happened before February (Dday). That all happened without my knowledge and knowing any of that isn't going to do me a bit of good.
But what has happened from then until now I feel affects me very much. I want to know what happened right under my nose because that is more "current".
And it's really not the knowledge I'm after. It's knowing that she'll tell me whatever I ask her. That's what I want to know. And the only way to really know that is to do it from time to time.

Anyway, I'm back and forth on that. There's nothing in particular that's bugging me lately. I feel that she's being honest with me and is there for me and only me now. That's what's important. I'll figure the rest out as I go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A two month headache sounds serious. Does she understand what you go through and help you? I hope by now it is no longer you getting her through withdrawal, and you getting nothing from her. The fact that you don't come back daily probably means you don't worry about things so much, at least I hope it is that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, the headache thing is getting really old. I've done the cardiology and neurology thing and so far they've chalked it up to tension/stress related migraines. I don't really think that's what it is as a migraine shouldn't be close to constant for so long. This is an every day thing. I won't say it's not connected to my life as of late, but who knows? I'm in the midst of trying to find out.

No, I'm not just helping her through things. She seems to be doing very well with getting over things. She's been great for me as of late, and has taken care of me better than anyone else could lately with me not feeling the greatest all the time.

What it seems to be down to now is her fighting God for control of her life. She understands this as well. She told me this past weekend that she feels that God is asking her to give up the plan that she has for her own life. To give that over to Him and take what He has for her instead. She just feels that she did that for years and that she got burned for it. It's taking time for her to give control of things back to God after having the reigns herself for so long. Not that her way was good, but .......

That seems to be what it's down to now. She said that she knows that she needs to stay with me. That it's what is best for her and it is right for her to do. God has told her this and she's just got to give in and let Him have control. All I can do is pray and encourage her.

I'm here every day, but I usually don't post unless something happens or there is a reply to this thread.
I've been super busy...went on a couples retreat with our church this past weekend (had a great time too) and the holiday and all. Been extremely busy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you say why you and I took so long to realize there was a problem?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that a direct question? For me, I knew there were problems, but I had no idea of the seriousness of the situation. It's not like we had the picture perfect relationship before this all hit the fan. We had problems and I knew it, but I guess I didn't think they were to the boiling point yet. Fact was, things had boiled over a long time ago, but I wasn't aware of that.
I was just too content to sit back and watch things. I feel like I was almost a third person (no pun intended), watching our relationship happen. I wasn't very involved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are pretty happy now, hope you are a year from now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm happy now. I just want her to feel the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If I get an 800 #, it has to spell something catchy.

Good evening,
at least it is while i write this.

It sounds to me like you are really making progress. The things you say show that you are thinking on a level past the ABC's of recovery You are in the advanced class now, and seem to be learning the material.

And it's really not the knowledge I'm after. It's knowing that she'll tell me whatever I ask her. That's what I want to know. And the only way to really know that is to do it from time to time.

I don't think I could have put it better. Your feelings need to be important to her. How important do you feel if you ask and she refuses to give the information? Not very.
There does have to come a time when you leave it alone, but full disclosure comes first. Have you explained this to her? What does she say besides that her IC says to leave her alone?

Anyway, I'm back and forth on that. There's nothing in particular that's bugging me lately. I feel that she's being honest with me and is there for me and only me now. That's what's important. I'll figure the rest out as I go.

If trust is back then you are ahead of most on this site. She must be responding well - You must be treating her well for her to have come so far.

Yeah, the headache thing is getting really old. I've done the cardiology and neurology thing and so far they've chalked it up to tension/stress related migraines. I don't really think that's what it is as a migraine shouldn't be close to constant for so long. This is an every day thing. I won't say it's not connected to my life as of late, but who knows? I'm in the midst of trying to find out.

That sounds very serious, more than just stress. Since I am no expert, I admit I don't have a clue, but I sincerely hope that it gets fixed soon and that it is nothing else more serious. You scare me now, please let us know what happens.

No, I'm not just helping her through things. She seems to be doing very well with getting over things. She's been great for me as of late, and has taken care of me better than anyone else could lately with me not feeling the greatest all the time.
What a blessing, I hope you don't take her for granted. I doubt you could......... yet, but I hope you don't.

What it seems to be down to now is her fighting God for control of her life. She understands this as well. She told me this past weekend that she feels that God is asking her to give up the plan that she has for her own life. To give that over to Him and take what He has for her instead. She just feels that she did that for years and that she got burned for it. It's taking time for her to give control of things back to God after having the reigns herself for so long. Not that her way was good, but .......

My W had reservations when we married. I was not a ladies man at all, and didn't know the dating games at all. I grew up in a rural community, spent my time farming mostly in my teen years. I told God that I would do the best I could at living the way he wanted me too, if he would help me know what to do about getting married. One night on a date I knew, so I asked her. She told me NO. I asked her to pray about it first, and she said she would. Next night I picked her up and she started crying and said: " I had so many things I wanted to do before I got married." She got the same answer that I did.
This is something we do with love. God never makes mistakes. He knows far better than we know, but sometimes it doesn't make sense.
Perhaps your W thinks that following God is supposed to be painless. I notice as I read scripture that it if often very painful and has a high cost, but that doesn't mean it is the wrong choice. Sometimes pain produces growth that would not come but for that very pain that we would avoid if we only could. I could tell you stories all night - but this is something the two of you need to work out. I suspect as time passes and you continue to support and care for her, her faith will come back.

That seems to be what it's down to now. She said that she knows that she needs to stay with me. That it's what is best for her and it is right for her to do. God has told her this and she's just got to give in and let Him have control. All I can do is pray and encourage her.

Pray, encourage, meet her needs, love her, care for and protect her feelings, live as God wants you to live, be an example, be true to your own promptings from God, no matter how hard they are to do....................you seem to understand.

I'm here every day, but I usually don't post unless something happens or there is a reply to this thread.
I am here ALMOST every day, and sometimes I post to others and intend to get back to you, but I can't do a quick post to you because I need to think quite a bit, so sometimes I don't' get it done. I do most from work, and if I get a phone call or an appointment it often messes up my posting schedule. Oh well, sometimes I have to work.

I've been super busy...went on a couples retreat with our church this past weekend (had a great time too) and the holiday and all. Been extremely busy. You mean you have a life beyond MB? I bet you do at that.
Tell us about the retreat- what you did, and how both of you feel about it.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you say why you and I took so long to realize there was a problem?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that a direct question?
I was just thinking out loud. I kind of agree with your answer though. I was wrapped up in what I wanted, and wasn't taking care of her happiness. I hope we never go back to that, and won't if I have anything to say about it. W agrees.

I'm happy now. I just want her to feel the same.
How do you measure that? When do you know she is happy?

If I get an 800 #, it has to spell something catchy.

1-800-something catchy

Naw, that's too long, try again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There does have to come a time when you leave it alone, but full disclosure comes first. Have you explained this to her? What does she say besides that her IC says to leave her alone?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some of my problem is the fact that I want to leave it alone, but it just doesn't seem to be the time yet. Not that I badger her about thing.....honestly, my asking her the other week if she had any face to face with him since February was the only thing I've asked her directly about the A in months. I want to put it to rest and leave it alone....walk away from it as much as possible. But there's some things that I feel I need to find out and know. I know in my head that she'll tell me whatever I ask. Again, not gory details, but things I feel I need to know to put it to rest in my head and stop the round and round I go through so much.
Right now, I think the only thing that really matters to me is 1. When, how and where they met (since Dday) just so I'll know how I was duped and how I can be wary in the future and 2. has there been any contact since the first part of July (about the time I put a finger on when she finally "came around" and said that she was going to stop it all and really work at "us"). I know I have every right in the world to ask #2 and I should probably ask that question frequently. There's nothing she's said or says that keeps me from it, I think it's the possibility that I"ll get an answer I don't want to hear, so I keep putting it off. It's been on the tip of my tongue so many times....but I never ask. It seems silly to think about, but it's so hard when the time comes.

As for her counselor telling her what she did....that's not the answer she gave me the time we talked. She answered my question right off the bat. She told me that just because. I guess so I'd know that's what her IC had said. She didn't use it as a wall to deflect my question, just threw it out for my info. We talked and I explained my feelings and she said that if I needed it, she'd tell me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If trust is back then you are ahead of most on this site. She must be responding well - You must be treating her well for her to have come so far.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't say it's back, but I do extent her some trust that I don't always feel comfortable with. But I know that's going to be how it goes. If I wait to feel the trust before I give it, I never will.
I still have times....just the other night, she worked about 2 or 3 hours late. She works for a very small company, and working late means working alone. It's something she's always done, and I've never thought twice about it. But lately, when she's been there alone at night, I go up to her work and keep her company. But this time, I was busy. I didn't really think about it until later, but that "how do I know she was alone or at work?" question kept popping into my head. She sensed that and reassured me (without me saying anything) that she was alone and was at work.
Maybe it's that I still wonder if any of their meetings took place at her work. I doubt it, but not knowing makes me wonder.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You scare me now, please let us know what happens.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll keep you up on it. I'm not sweating it....whatever will be, will be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a blessing, I hope you don't take her for granted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something we do with love. God never makes mistakes. He knows far better than we know, but sometimes it doesn't make sense.
Perhaps your W thinks that following God is supposed to be painless. I notice as I read scripture that it if often very painful and has a high cost, but that doesn't mean it is the wrong choice. Sometimes pain produces growth that would not come but for that very pain that we would avoid if we only could. I could tell you stories all night - but this is something the two of you need to work out. I suspect as time passes and you continue to support and care for her, her faith will come back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will and I will wait for God to work in her. I know he has wonderful plans for us, but they cannot come to pass until we are both willing to accept them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell us about the retreat- what you did, and how both of you feel about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a great trip. We went to the Billy Graham training center in Asheville, NC and had the pastor of Highland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga as our speaker. We didn't have a whole lot of leasure time, but my W and I spent a ton of time together and really enjoyed it all.
The lessons were needed, but of course a bit shallower than we're needing right now, but all things we could use.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you measure that? When do you know she is happy?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I measure my own happiness? Overly simple, but by how I feel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I so love the way our relationship is going now. Things continue to get better overall, and it excites me to think of how things will be when her whole heart and soul is going along with her. She is still struggling with what she wants....I know that....but it's coming. I can see it.

As for her happiness....that's something she'll have to tell me. I can see it in her eyes sometimes, but I'll have to hear her tell me that she's happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1-800-something catchy</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Please try again.

1-800-luv-stuf

1-800-tru-love

come on, you can do better than I can.

I've found of late, that Saturday mornings tend to be good times for us to have R talks. We're both pretty refreshed, because we've been able to sleep a little longer than normal, and we're normally in great moods because we don't have a day of work staring us in the face.

Anyway, I finally asked her about contact on Saturday morning, and my instincts were telling me something over the last several weeks.
I specifically asked her if there had been anything since our "date" at the first part of July. Her hesitation when I asked her told me the answer, and I knew then why I had been so hesitant to ask for so long.
She said she "had to think" and I told her if she had to think, then I knew she was just trying to decide what to tell me.
Turns out that while on the way home from work one day, she saw OM at a gas station. She pulled in and they stood around and chit-chatted for a while.
Granted, from what she told me, it was mostly a catch up kind of conversation. Not harmless by any means, but I don't think it was much deeper than that.
She said it was about 10 minutes (probably being conservative there, so I'll figure it was more like 20 or 30)

How should I read this? Granted, the way it happened was better (to me anyway) than her just breaking down and picking up the phone to call him, but she had the perfect opportunity there to show somoe self control and keep on driving.
I know everyone says that any contact resets the recovery period back to 0 and things basically start over again. But I haven't seen that here. There has been nothing in her behavior that told me anything had happened, it was just something in my gut prodding me to ask her. We have continued to grow closer and further develop our relationship, and she tells me (and I believe her) that there has been nothing since.

I guess it just angers me that she hold things back from me. She asked me if I really needed to hear things like that from her, and I said yes. But I told her that it would be a whole lot easier to take if she had come to me on her own and told me what she had done. It's the hiding and the feeling I get from her that she still doesn't look at the whole thing as "wrong".
When she first told me of this incident, she said that she "bumped into him at the gas station". I then asked what gas station, and it was one that she would never stop at, so it turns out (and I confirmed this by asking) that she didn't bump into him, she made a decision to stop when she saw him standing there.

I guess there's a part of me that wants more than anything for her to view this whole thing in the same way that I do. To see the whole relationship as a mistake and a bad choice. To see it all as a huge blow to our relationship and to see every bit of the hurt and pain it's caused me.
She does see it as a bad overall decision, but she still (and most likely always will) looks at the relationship itself as a good thing. She has said over and over that what she got from him kept her with me. It gave her what she needed to stay around a little longer.
I just can't get it across to her how angry her saying that makes me.
I guess it's just that.....I just want her to see things from my point of view. I feel that I've looked at this all through her eyes and from her perspective and can see they why of what she did. Not justified of course, but I can see how the circumstances of our relationship opened the door for her to do what she did.
But it seems that is where it stops. She can't seem to see things from my point of view. She looks back on their relationship fondly (she doesn't say that, but I can see it). I just so wish that she could look at it with distain the way I do. That she could think of him in a little of the way that I do. I don't hate him (OM), but I do dislike the thought of him.

I know in my head that she'll probably never feel that way, but it's just so hard to accept that she'll always look back at their relationship and have good memories.

I'm know I'm coming across as being majorly discouraged. I'm not really. I'm angry now that I'm replaying this over in my head, but things are still OK. My gut feeling is that this changes nothing, but there's always that part of me that wonders.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"She has said over and over that what she got from him kept her with me. It gave her what she needed to stay around a little longer."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did she specifically say what it was she 'got' from the OM?

Everything she's told me that she got from him are things that I am now (according to her) excelling in giving her. The biggest thing was conversation. Talking from the heart is not something that comes naturally to me, but I've learned to integrate it into my every day life.

There might have been a little affection that came from him. The type that would come with deep conversation. I have always been the affectionate type, so overall that wasn't a problem. Though I'm sure that there are different types of affection that come with different behavior. I won't say that I was hitting all of them.

I know that admiration is more of a male need, but my W is one that needs to have someone to admire. That's the thing that's the most difficult to recover from because becoming a person to be admired is not an overnight job. Not sure how he managed it in a year something, on and off relationship that didn't afford a whole lot of one on one time. Nonetheless I'd say he got her admiration.
I'm working on that, and am being successful in many ways, but again it's a slow process.

Anyway, short answer to your question. Conversation and (some)affection.

Other than that, I think there were probably quite a few qualities in OM that she thought matched up with her own qualities than the ones of ours that match up. Granted, that's changing too, but to her, they were just "more compatible" and she could see things working with him easier than they had with me.

<small>[ September 09, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

I have used up my time tonight, get back to you tomorrow. You are a very thoughtful person, at least you are now. How did you spend your time pre D-day?

Still thinking about the 800 number. Your turn.

SS