</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did you spend your time pre D-day?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a good question. Seems like another life now (guess that's a good description of it). I've always been good at keeping to myself and mulling things over. My problem was that I never shared my mullings with my W. Had I done that all along, this probably wouldn't have happened.

As for other things......as ironic as it sounds, quite a bit of my time was spent with OM (my "friend") on different projects or just goofing off. If it wasn't he and I, it was the 4 of us. Yeesh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still thinking about the 800 number. Your turn</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1-800-dontbeasucker....no, too long

1-800-trustnoone....still too long

1-800-BTW, I'm joking about the above. Just being a smart-***.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Greetings,
You are very thoughtful - and that takes time. I commend you for being willing to examine your feelings - and also for thinking about how to make her happy.

I guess there's a part of me that wants more than anything for her to view this whole thing in the same way that I do. To see the whole relationship as a mistake and a bad choice. To see it all as a huge blow to our relationship and to see every bit of the hurt and pain it's caused me. She does see it as a bad overall decision, but she still (and most likely always will) looks at the relationship itself as a good thing. She has said over and over that what she got from him kept her with me. It gave her what she needed to stay around a little longer. I just can't get it across to her how angry her saying that makes me. I guess it's just that.....I just want her to see things from my point of view. I feel that I've looked at this all through her eyes and from her perspective and can see they why of what she did. Not justified of course, but I can see how the circumstances of our relationship opened the door for her to do what she did. But it seems that is where it stops. She can't seem to see things from my point of view. She looks back on their relationship fondly (she doesn't say that, but I can see it). I just so wish that she could look at it with disdain the way I do. That she could think of him in a little of the way that I do. I don't hate him (OM), but I do dislike the thought of him.

Remember that part of this is chemical. I don't know if you have seen the info in some threads, but part of what she felt for him was a chemical reaction inside her brain. If I understand correctly, that is still going on. She feels good when she thinks about him. It hasn't worn off yet. I do believe that part will go in time. Dr Harley ( as quoted by many others, I don't have a reference) relates that while many feel remorse for what they have done, some - even some that completely recover, never show any remorse at all. I would have to think this happens in cases where the marriage was in really bad shape prior to - and during the A., but I don't have data to back that up.
I can understand why you feel angry when you think about it. That is a natural reaction to betrayal. I also worry about her contact with him. She didn't call him, but she could have gone on by and she stopped and talked. That tells me she doesn't understand NC very well. I don't' mean the concept, but the hazards of continued contact. That part scares me. It looks like she is still not understanding total commitment to her own marriage. She is not protecting you yet, she is still doing what "feels good" to her, and that day, it was talking to OM.

Makes me wonder how easy it is to talk to her about the 4 rules of successful marriages, and how much she buys into the MB methods. I am sold on them, our problems come now only if we don't follow the rules - we both understand them pretty well. I sometimes still use DJ's, and she still sometimes won't use POJA. When we follow the rules, we get along pretty well.
There is a lot of chance for things to go haywire when only one party is trying. I hope she feels bad for hurting you by stopping and talking to him.
I notice that some spouses here (2long's W comes to mind) take a long time to understand how their actions affect their spouse. Not only to understand, to care about it at all. There is a good chance that your W will understand in time.

I know in my head that she'll probably never feel that way, but it's just so hard to accept that she'll always look back at their relationship and have good memories.

She may have continued good memories. They never did have a chance to live real life together, and to see each other's bad sides. So, right now, only good memories. There should come a time when it dawns on her that he knew she was married and if he really was a nice upright wonderful person he should have said NO. What kind of guy goes after another man's wife? I hope she gets that in time. If she does not..................
I had better quit now, before I get negative.

My problem was that I never shared my mullings with my W. Had I done that all along, this probably wouldn't have happened.

I'm learning too. I used to mull over her failures, and if I would have discussed what I thought were failures, I would have learned she was just doing the best she could at the time, but I let things get out of hand in my mind and then unloaded on her.
- Bad for relationships, very bad.

All education has a price. I am glad the price of mine was as low as it was. Yours was much higher, but perhaps with a long term loan, you can pay for it eventually. I don't know if your W has learned from this yet, at least not as much as she needs to learn. It will come to her over time if you continue to work things out.

1-800-sen-dcash
Only one letter off, not too bad.

1-800-fre-advc

1-800-callnow

I don't know, maybe you just ought to get easy to remember numbers
1-800-111-1111 You don't need a certain prefix with 800 numbers.

Maybe I ought to quit and get to work? Probably.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That tells me she doesn't understand NC very well. I don't' mean the concept, but the hazards of continued contact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know for a fact that she doesn't get the hazards of a casual conversation. She'd never tell me it was "no big deal", but that's what I read in her explanation to me. If it had been no big deal, why didn't she tell me about it???
My problem is that I don't know how to explain to her the danger of what she did. She says...I've read the books, I know why you say what you say...but she just doesn't feel it all applies to her. Like it's a special situation or something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It looks like she is still not understanding total commitment to her own marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, she'll be the first to tell you that she's not committed to the marriage yet. That's the deal. The jury is still out on what she wants. She doesn't know what she wants. But in the meantime, she's decided that she should stay with me and give things a good shot while she's making her mind up. I'm thankful for that, but I want her all the way off the fence and she doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get off.
She'll talk about the future and it has us in it, but then sometimes she'll remind me that she's not made her mind up yet.

I have more things to say, but am out of time now. I'll finish this in the morning.......

....OK, I'm back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Makes me wonder how easy it is to talk to her about the 4 rules of successful marriages, and how much she buys into the MB methods. I am sold on them, our problems come now only if we don't follow the rules - we both understand them pretty well. I sometimes still use DJ's, and she still sometimes won't use POJA. When we follow the rules, we get along pretty well.
There is a lot of chance for things to go haywire when only one party is trying. I hope she feels bad for hurting you by stopping and talking to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's actually pretty easy to talk to her about anything. I just find it hard to get past myself most of the time.
I will say, that we've never sat down and agreed to follow MB principles. You know, really gone through them and hashed it out and had an agreement about it. I won't say it's an unspoken thing, because it's not. We have talked about some of these things, such as honesty and agreement etc. Just never in the terms of "radical honesty" or the "policy of joint agreement". We kind of just talk in normal terms, if that makes sense.
Maybe we should do that very thing.
As for how much she buys into the principles....I wonder that sometimes too. I know, I need to talk to her about it. There are just so many things to talk about, and it's hard to keep up with the needs list.
I know she agrees with most everything. I don't think she buys all the A advice. I don't know that I can explain that any better or not. Again, it's just like she comes across that she feels hers is a "special case". I see that alot here, but it's hard to know how to react to that.
Here's an example. When we were talking about the "run in" she had with OM, I had said something about feeling that the recovery clock had been reset. Maybe not those words, but something to that end. During that conversation she told me that she knew that all the books said that contact should end immediately. That it should be completely and totally cut off and one time. Go cold turkey I think is how she put it. Well, she said that she felt that since she "lost so much" at one time...meaning that she had lost her fantasy with OM, she lost her best friend (OM's wife) and she and I lost our best couple friend, that she couldn't just cut things off like that. She felt (and still does I think) that it was best for her to try to ease herself off from him to give herself time to grieve.
Something bull-****ty like that. I didn't react to that because I probably would have blown up because what she said was so ridiculous. I think the her situation was more reason to run away and cut things off right off....but what do I know? I'm just her husband.

As for her feeling bad for hurting me by talking to him......that's what is bothering me the most. Yeah, she feels bad. I know that because she hid the truth from me. She knew it would crush me, and she didn't want to do that, so she hid it. Granted, it would have been easier to take if she had told me when she got home that day....
She gave me one "I'm sorry", but she didn't really make me think she meant it very much.
I don't want to make it seem that she's not repentant for what she's done. She is and she tells me that she's sorry for what she did to me. I more wish she'd be sorry for what she's done to herself more than anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They never did have a chance to live real life together, and to see each other's bad sides.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another thing she disputes. Not lately, because we haven't talked about that in quite a while, but when we did, I would say that the relationship wasn't all she thought because they never lived real life together, and she would argue that they knew each other better than that and yada yada yada.....fog talk coming out both ends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There should come a time when it dawns on her that he knew she was married and if he really was a nice upright wonderful person he should have said NO. What kind of guy goes after another man's wife? I hope she gets that in time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've asked her about that too. That how could she think that he'd be so great to her if he'd do his wife the way he had. And her reply always was that, yeah he's a cheater, but so is she, so they should make a great match. I'm getting pi**ed off just remembering all the conversations....

Anyway, as of now, I'm still kind of reeling from the Saturday revalation. I didn't make a huge deal of it at the time. I told her that I felt betrayed all over again, and I tried to stress how big I saw it as, but I didn't go any further into it than that. And I feel that I have unfinished business there. I guess I just need to air my concerns to her and let her deal with them.
I think too, that I feel that I really have never put concrete boundaries in place for her. For so long she would have just laughed them off anyway, but now, even though she's not said I'm here for the long run, I feel that she would abide by pretty much anything I said. But I've yet to stretch my wings and test that. Maybe because I'm scared I'll push her away?
About the only thing I've requested from her was that she keep her cell phone with her at all times and keep in contact with me as much as possible. And to keep me informed of any trips out she makes etc, etc. Nothing all that much. I've given her a whole lot of trust on credit....but it's trust that I don't feel very much of. I'm always trying to think of what might make me feel a little better....of ways that she can show me that she's willing to incovinience herself a bit for me. I know I could ask for copies of her cell bills (it's a work phone, but she pays the bill, so she can get copies), but it's not like I really think I'm going to accomplish anything with that. She's not stupid and if she were to ever get in touch with OM again, she just wouldn't use her cell.
She tells me that she has no email accounts that I don't know of and have access to, and I do believe her (except when I let go of my minds reigns, then I believe nothing), and if she does, she's apparently not going to tell me about them.
I guess I could press for more time accountabillty. That would be of use, but I've gotta figure out how to go about it.

At any rate, I paint an ugly picture this morning, and it's not that bad. Things are going well, and I do feel that she's there for me. I just don't know how to process some of this other stuff.

High Road -

Do you have a plan for recovery? Living in limbo really, really sucks. Sounds like you're in Plan A to me, and there's some chance that it'll work its way to true recovery, but it doesn't sound to me like you're really there yet.

If you don't have a plan that you've both agreed to, then it seems to me that you're never going to really make any progress.

Talk to Cerri about it. She's good with this part.

I guess when you get right down to it (in MB terms), we are still in Plan A. I may be wrong, but I think recovery demands that both parties are agreeable to the ins and outs of it. Right now, my W's jury is still out on whether she wants to spend the rest of her life with me or not.

I feel that she's nearing a final decision though. She's expressed that she feels that it's down to her fighting God for control of her life. Maybe fighting is not a good word, but handing over the control and accepting what he has for her. Once she decides that she wants what God has for her, then we can truly start our road to recovery.

I think alot of it is that there aren't always smooth transitions from one phase of things to the next. Plan X doesn't always just flow straight into recovery. The thing is that the MB process, though it is a great one, has to be modified to fit your particular situation. There is no one size fits all plan that will get anyone out of their crappy situation. It's taken me months to figure that out.

I don't think we're in limbo, I think we're making true steps towards recovery. I know we can't say that we're 100% in recovery, but I think some of the groundwork for that can be set during the time we're in now.
I think a better term would be that we're in transition. A slightly bumpy transition. But aren't they all?

It may be that you could just ask her point blank if she is sure enough about your long term togetherness that she will do a formal outline with you to make sure you are "on the same page" about recovering your marriage. That could include:

Reading the books - or at least HNHN and making sure you both agree on what is needed.

Discuss what is needed for each of you to be comfortable and happy and see if agreement can be reached for the other to support that.

Discuss POJA, the rule of time, and the other rules of successful marriages and see if you can get agreement about following those.

It may be good to ask her about her feelings and get her to talk about what she thinks your next steps are - so you have an idea of how much of this she is ready for.

Like:
So, where do you think we are now as far as our relationship goes?

What do you think we need to do next? or
Where do you think we need to go from here?

You can always steer this and introduce the idea of a formal plan for recovery, and there is a good chance she will ask you back (about your feelings) anyway.

I think you do need to work on your feelings, they should be adressed - probably have to be addressed before full recovery will take place.

It sounds like you are able to do what is needed by having self control, but you want more that that- or am I wrong? I mean, you want to talk about some of this stuff, and you want to put it behind you but you don't know if it will make her feel preassure, and drive her away. That about right?

If so, just ask her if you can talk about some things that may cause a very emotional discussion, but you want to get them out or your system. She what she says.

High, I still think you will make this work.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may be that you could just ask her point blank if she is sure enough about your long term togetherness that she will do a formal outline with you to make sure you are "on the same page" about recovering your marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That might be the best bet for us. I emailed her earlier today (she knew something was wrong when I left for work this morning, but we didn't have time to talk) and told her that I wanted us to sit down and really hash out where we felt things were at and what each of us can do to make them go forward at an acceptable pace for both of us. I told her that I was bothered by her having seen OM and that I felt that we really weren't on the same page when it comes to looking at some aspects of our situation.

Anyway, she knows that it's on my mind and that I need to talk. That's half the battle there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like you are able to do what is needed by having self control, but you want more that that- or am I wrong? I mean, you want to talk about some of this stuff, and you want to put it behind you but you don't know if it will make her feel preassure, and drive her away. That about right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically. I don't know if I really feel it will drive her away at this point. She's told me that she'll tell me whatever or talk about whatever if I feel that I need to do so. She just wonders what good it does me. Sometimes I feel that she understands somewhat, but sometimes she doesn't.

Yeah, I can get by without talking about the A any more. I really think I could. I just don't know yet if I need to. It's hard to know what to think....you've got methods like MB that say if you talk about it (which you should) to do it soon before the wounds start to heal. Then our JC told me that he feels I should wait. Give it some time and put some progress under our belts before digging in too deep (which isn't something I really want to do anyway), and others like her IC that says talking about it doesn't accomplish anything positive. There are so many opinions out there.
I'm of the mind that if something comes to my mind and I've prayed about it and given it some time and it's stays with me constantly, then I probably need to talk about it. It's not like I'd just flippantly ask her about something, or start a conversation half prepared. If anything I think things through too much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">High, I still think you will make this work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I've got no doubt that it can work. But I know that everything isn't on my shoulders to do. There's some of it that she's gotta decide to do, and some of that doesn't have a thing to do with the way I act (now or before) or how I treat her or anything like that. It's just her getting down to the core of it and deciding if she's going to put all her effort into this or not.
It just seems to me that she wants some kind of open-ended agreement that if she throws in and works and down the road she doesn't feel that it's going to work, that she can just walk away. I don't work that way. I know that's how most people look at their relationships anyway, but it's not how I want things to be with us.
Not that her decision holds her with me no matter what I do or how I am...that's ridiculous...I have my obligations to her too. But if she decides to stay that she's going to do everything she can do along with me, to make things work.

I feel that she's mostly there now....there's just something missing.

Hey, I've got no doubt that it can work. But I know that everything isn't on my shoulders to do. There's some of it that she's gotta decide to do, and some of that doesn't have a thing to do with the way I act (now or before) or how I treat her or anything like that. It's just her getting down to the core of it and deciding if she's going to put all her effort into this or not.
It just seems to me that she wants some kind of open-ended agreement that if she throws in and works and down the road she doesn't feel that it's going to work, that she can just walk away. I don't work that way. I know that's how most people look at their relationships anyway, but it's not how I want things to be with us.
Not that her decision holds her with me no matter what I do or how I am...that's ridiculous...I have my obligations to her too. But if she decides to stay that she's going to do everything she can do along with me, to make things work.

I feel that she's mostly there now....there's just something missing.

It goes back to one of the first things I learned here. You can't change them, you can only change you and hope they respond.

See, even if she was to say: "Oh, I commit,I promise to stay forever." she couuld still change her mind and leave in a year. Lets look at it from another point of view. You made promises at the time you married her - did you keep them?
I think you can see what I am getting at.

Your choice is to stay, or leave. She has the same choices. It would be easier for you if she would TELL you she is committed, but it might not mean any more than the fact that she is STILL THERE. I am not trying to be hard on you, but to get you to think about what you want, and why.
You may have all that you can expect to get for a while. The rest that you seek may be something that - well, you may go along for years and one day wake up and realize that you have it. Time, faithfulness, cooperation, love, unselfishness........I believe these given by both of you over time will add up to that something that is missing. That is coming from a 47 year old married for 26 years.

You do need to talk, but maybe add something. Figure out your lifes goals, and hers, and connect them, and plan how to do them. If you can set a goal for something 5 years out that you need to work on together, you may just find that you have your answer.

My W and I have goals 15 years out from now. We work on them together. We expect to reach them.

Did you have that talk? How did it go?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, even if she was to say: "Oh, I commit,I promise to stay forever." she couuld still change her mind and leave in a year. Lets look at it from another point of view. You made promises at the time you married her - did you keep them?
I think you can see what I am getting at.

Your choice is to stay, or leave. She has the same choices. It would be easier for you if she would TELL you she is committed, but it might not mean any more than the fact that she is STILL THERE. I am not trying to be hard on you, but to get you to think about what you want, and why.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you're saying. And I don't want to come across like I'm hinging everything on her saying some meaningless words (which most words are....the actions are what matters). Hearing her say that she'll stay forever....that's not important to me. Knowing that she wants to stay is important to me.
Again, you're right that the only thing that really matters at this point is that she's still with me and she's not planning on going anywhere for the forseeable future. Plus the fact that shes agreed to work with me to better our relationship....her just "sticking around" doesn't help us get anything accomplished.

I guess I really do have all the elements I need to go someplace with this. It's just hard to see through all the crap that still gets slung around from time to time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do need to talk, but maybe add something. Figure out your lifes goals, and hers, and connect them, and plan how to do them. If you can set a goal for something 5 years out that you need to work on together, you may just find that you have your answer.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the biggest thing that I feel is missing in my life. Long term goals are very hard to me to think about, much less set and work towards. I'm not using that as an excuse, just getting it out that it is a weak spot in my life. I always find myself thinking more of what I want now.
I really think if I could set a course for my life even for the next 5 or 10 years that she'd be so overjoyed that she'd do everything she could do to help us get there.
I'm just completely clueless as to how to go about that. I find that the only thing I can really concentrate on is the here and now of our relationship. Everything else just kind of melts into the background.
What are some of your goals, if you don't mind me asking?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you have that talk? How did it go?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked a good while last night about various things (mostly our church situation), but it wasn't the best time to be talking about relationship talk. She's been a little under the weather for the last few days, plus her "week" is coming up, so that kind of throws a wrench in any serious conversation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
So, no, the opportunity really hasn't presented itself this week. She was really discouraged last night, so that kind of tainted everything we talked about. Today would be a better day for it. She seemed to be in a great mood before I left for work. Very giving and overall sorry for her mood and attitude last night. Plus, we found out that my brother and his wife had their second child safely overnight, so she's excited about the new nephew.
I need to write some things out about how I feel and what I want to accomplish so I'll be prepared anyway.

High_Road,

If I have posted to you, it has been a long time, but you said something that prompted me to post to you. You stated that you were no good at long range plans and goals.

I have several things to say on this matter. One, in someplaces there are people that will "coach" you to do this. There are OF COURSE many people that propose to help you plan your financial future. Some good, most mediocre, and some very bad.

I would like to suggest that you consider the old saying that a long journey starts with a SINGLE step. Sit down get a piece or three of paper and break your life up into categories: financial, family, romantic, job, hobbies, toys, etc.

Then under each one start to think what in the best of worlds you would really like to have, or where would you like to be, etc. I know this sounds simple, and guess what it really is.

So lets take financial: when would you like to retire, honestly how much money does it require for you and your family to live comfortably, does your job provide it?, Do you need better investments, etc. You know the drill. Then start figuring out a plan.

Once you have sort of an idea, get your W into it. Where would she like to be financially, what makes her comfortable, is college education a future expense. Once the two of you sort of have sit out your goals for 5, 10, 20, 30 years. THEN go to a financial planner or investment person and get their input into how to acheive what you want.

Let's consider something more germaine to the topic of this forum, family. What are your dreams of a good family? What gives you satisfaction? Why don't you have it? Where do you want to be emotionally and family wise(children, recreation, education, ...)? Family touches many other aspects of your life so your planning here should be consistent with your planning elsewhere.

Once you have some ideas on paper, get your W to do the same and then talk about things: how to acheive the various goals, what you both want and need, how you can help each other. TALK long an hard about how to help each other, try out WILD ideas, FUNNY ideas, and talk about them. Then, with her at your side start to lay out concrete goals: we WILL go out once a month, we WILL listen more carefully to each other, etc. Make these goals that you both can do and originally pick goals that are easy for you both right now.

Make her really help you, or even offer her to pick a few of the main categories and she go first and then you come in and help. The point here is two fold.

Plans change, but people without plans rarely make much of anything work, or appreciate the things that do. Why? Because if you haven't thought of it, if you haven't worked/played for it, then you don't KNOW what it means when it shows up.

It is like a novice playing poker, and getting dealt 4 aces. They win the hand, but they have no clue what has really happened because they have never played the game before, they don't know how rare such a hand is, in short they get a short term gain (winning the hand), but are likely to lose in the long term.

Is this making sense?? It is time for you to start planning your life, and if you wish make those plans include your W. I think you will find that as you do this, many of the techniques mentioned on this sight (radical honesty, POJA, and the 4 rules) will start to make a lot of sense to you and your W and you will find using them very useful. AND...

You just might plan your way into the marriage you always wanted and a happiness with your W that you worried would never occur.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for the advice. I've started jotting some things down on my own....mostly immediate and one year goals (gotta start somewhere) and will go from there.
Haven't had time to really discuss it in depth with my W yet, though she did want to know some of the things I've come up with. My notes are on the kitchen table waiting for us to get time to sit down and talk.

I really believe that if I can get my act together in this area of my life, that things will stand a much better chance of working out.

If anyone knows of some good books on the subject, I'd love to do some homework.

JL did a really good job, much better than I could have on that subject.

We have goals in lots of areas.

We have financial goals.

We want our income stream to be $65,000 year when we retire with no other debt. We have a goal for how much we want in liquid assetts when we retire. ( separate from the money that generates the income stream)

We have goals to be missionaries for our church when we retire. (that could mean going anywhere in the world) We want to do that every few years until our health fails, until we are no longer able to do it.

We have shorter term goals for debt retirement. We have goals for landscaping our yard. We have goals for re-doing the home. At one time there were education goals - and you can help your W set those goals for herself, the timing, and having the money there for it.

We have some vacation goals, short term, and long term. We go somewhere two times a year as a couple.

We have a goal to help a neighbor family that is seeing hard times - by doing things with them on a regular basis, inviting them to go places with us, and givng moral support.

We have a goal to visit 4 families in our church at least monthly to offer support and friendship.

There are more, but that's a good start.

Take it slow, discuss it with your W. Work on the things most important to you first. (Hint, your marriage is very high on the list)

Enjoy life, it can be fun, even with all the bad stuff that gets dumped on us. We have a goal to enjoy ourselves and have fun as we go along. We try not to take things to seriously.

You have a lot of promise, and your W thinks so too, or she would not be there. (or God thinks so, and he talked her into staying) Either way, you can go far with a little help. Give youself credit for the changes you have made, and set some goals. It really can be fun, and not a burden. You'll get better at it as you go along. One of the key things you need is to believe in yourself. I believe in you, hope you can understand why, and get excited about what you can acomplish with a little added push.

SS

I think that I fail to realize that not all "goals" have to be high and lofty and far reaching. Not that short term, easier to obtain goals aren't important, but I guess I tend to think of things like that as just "things I want to do or get done", and not classify them as a true "goal". Helps me see that I can do that, and have been....just haven't really recognized it as such.

I have alot of the same goals as far as things around the house. We bought a fixup place about 4 years ago and are now busting our tails to get the basement finished by the time some friends from Canada come in town to stay with us in November.
There are other things similar, so I guess I have to look at the whole picture.

And yes, the marriage is the most important thing to me at this point. The thing is, is that sometimes I don't think it's at the same level in her mind. And it's not that we haven't talked about it, but her thoughts and desires seems to change with the wind sometimes.
She just seems to get so frustrated by the fact that I don't have long term job, location etc goals for us, and it's just so hard for me to get past the marriage goals right now. How difficult is it to make long range plans like that when you don't even know if your W is going to stay with you long enough to even form plans like that? Guess I just need to dive in and see.

Here's a change of gear...

When setting boundaries in a post A relationship. What do you do when your WS fights against the boundaries, even when they've told you that they're open to whatever you feel should be done?
One thing that really bothers me sometimes is my W working late. She works 3 days a week, but still manages to do the same amount of work she used to in a full week. So there are days that she'll go in early or stay late. She works at a very small office (usually about 3 other people there with her), so staying late usually means staying at the office alone. This is something that she's always done, but it just bothers me now. And it's not just the fact that I don't trust her. It's really not that at all. OM has done work for her company before (just "as a friend" type of stuff), so he knows where she works, and it's a location that I know he goes by quite often. I also know that he's sure to check for her car every time he goes by. What's to stop him from seeing her there after hours and deciding to stop by? I know that my W is not to the point that she would refuse to talk to him. If he were close, she would meet him halfway. She's told me that.
I made this known to her last night. Just told her that it bothers me when she's there by herself. I got no end of flack for that. "Well I'll just have to give up my off days" and "I hope you don't mind me going in at 6 in the morning then" and on and on. She finally stopped and I think she more or less saw it from my view, but I hate to even say anything about boundaries when I feel I'll get a response like that. I feel that I'm making things harder for her.

I guess I'm not really asking anything here, just trying to flush out some frustration.

You are trying to flush out frustration, but I have comments anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

When I first brought home HNHN, and got my W to read it, she thought much of it was very good, but she stayed away from POJA. It took me a while to learn that she viewed it as a new way for me to control her. Can you say "independent behavior" BIG TIME.

I tried to find a way to help her understand without making her angry, and finally the day came. She asked my help with something I didn't want to do. I brought up POJA and I could see it in her face - it said, " oh no, here it comes, a way for him to get out of this with the blessing of Dr Harley."

I used this situation to show her how POJA works. I found a solution that we BOTH could be happy with. We modified what she wanted just a little, and made it work for both of us. You don't know how many points I got for that when she figured she was dead in the water. Right now I can't even remember what the problem or the solution was, but I can remember the feeling that came to me when we agreed on it, and it was FANTASTIC. I believe God put the solution into my mind just when I needed it. It was a turning point for us.

Remember that POJA is finding a solution that both of you can be happy with, not just reluctantly agree to. When you talk to her about it, be sure to share your feelings when she stays late. Not "this or that may happen" but "I am so afraid that something may happen that it almost makes me sick to have you there by yourself." It is your feelings that are important here, and I believe she cares about you and will understand. If she doesn't formally understand POJA, perhaps you could let her read that part from HNHN and ask her to work out something with you about her staying late at work as the first exercise. If she isn't happy with the result, don't put it into effect.

Don't let things like this go, find a way to turn it into love bank deposits. Solve the problem with some great creative solution that shows her you care about her feelings too.

Brain storm with her about it and see what you can come up with. - don't groan, just do it.

BTW, I realize that not everything can be agreed upon, but I bet you can do this one.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, I realize that not everything can be agreed upon, but I bet you can do this one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We did come to an agreement that we would talk about any late days on a case by case basis. I know that there are times that she'll need to get some extra work done, and I don't want to be cold to that. I don't want her to get backed up and have to give up an off day. I just mostly want her to tell me beforehand that she may need to be there late. If it's a big deal to me, I can always go to her office and be there with her.
Anyway, I had to get her to understand that I wasn't just saying "you can't stay at work late anymore", but that I was uncomfortable with it because of _______. I think once I got that across to her, she was somewhat better with it.

Anyway, I know now she'll let me know early when she has more to do than she can get done that day, and we'll work out a solution at that time.

I have to remind my W that I am only communicating with her, not trying to tell her what to do. Old habits die hard.

Does your W understand that?

I have been gone over the weekend, will be gone tonight through Wed night, and gone again this weekend, so I am not too regular right now. I hope you are doing well, not just OK.

Please be willing to talk with her about the things you have feelings about. Healthy marriages have good communication, and ways to talk about anger, and work out differences. I am not "there" yet, but we are much better, and improving all the time. I hope you don't think I am saying that you have problems, because I am not. Just trying to encourage you with the long term improvement.

Don't ever be afraid of it, it is hard, but can be fun (most of the time.)

SS

Long time since I did the double post.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Yes, it means you need help shopping for her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Somewhere, sometime, there was something she didn't like. Now, the way things have gone, she is not afraid to lead out and get what she wants.

Support her in it, but do a supprise behind her back too, even if it's just a box of candy, or a carton of ice cream. Small stuff, a light for her key ring, a new car, you know, stuff she will think is cute, even if it doesn't cost much.

You doin OK?

SS

You threw me for a loop with the shopping tip. I had forgotten what I had said on the other thread.....I thought you were losing it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't know if I went wrong or not. Her asking me to take her shopping isn't done in a bad way. I ask her what she wants and she tells me. If she says she wants a shopping trip, then we go on a shopping trip. This year, I think the fact that I've set aside a day for her to drag me all around God's creation looking for who-knows-what, and that I've promised that I won't say a word about anything we do, means more to her than anything I could have picked out for her.

Anyway, as a whole, things are going very well. We went to dinner last night and neither one of us shut up the entire time. It was nice not to feel like we had to work at talking. It just flowed, and some of it was really deep. We had a counseling session yesterday morning (we're still going to the same person back to back), so we always compare notes first chance we get and talk about whatever happened. Sometimes that gets hilarious.
Our JC can be a hoot even though he's not trying to be funny. Just his personality.....it's different. We like him and we know that he's going to be a huge help to us, but he's still got some weird characteristics. Last week, we laid in bed and talked about the things he said that cracked us up. We were laughing so hard it hurt.

We hit the occasional speedbump that slows us down and makes us think, but overall progress is going forward for sure.

Thanks for dropping in.