I don't think I have told this one to you yet.

I have a friend that mentioned to me one day that he was going shopping with his W the next day. I said I was sorry and he jerked his head back to me (he had been turning around) and said "you don't understand, I like being with her, doesn't matter what it is."

This was before I came to MB, and it took me a while to get it, but now I do. Sounds like you do to.

Sorry I didn't reference your other post. You can think I am going crazy if you want, my W does, and she knows me well.

You sound like you are well into recovery. It takes a long time, but you seem to have a good start. Don't be afraid to talk about the things that concern you. Sounds like she is good for it.

I think a great deal of your ability - and I keep telling you so you have an outside point of reference. I'm impressed. I just hope your W is impressed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

There are days that I think we're well into it as well.....then there are some days that I don't.
Thankfully the days I don't are getting fewer far between.

My W is a little different. She does see the changes in our relationship and she does appreciate them, but she still has lingering doubts that things can work, or that she even wants them to.
Espeically in times like we've had this week. It's not been bad, but we've had a few times that we've butted heads on various issues. She looks at those like "See, we have these differences that keep coming up and coming up....", and I have to point out the different way we handled the differences this time. Yeah, there are differences, just as any other couple has...the key is how we handle the differences and resolve the problems that come from them. She sometimes looks over how we deal with the problems (much better than we ever have), and chooses to focus on the unchangeable fact that we have differences.

Anyway, it's coming. I can see it clearer some days than others, but it will come.

Later wack-o

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow. How much development can a few days bring?

Big happenings this weekend, which overall seem to be extremely good, but some aspects of it bring more questions and doubts.

Friday night, I came to bed (W was already in bed watching TV). When I came in, she turned off the TV and said that she needed to talk to me. With my W, a formal announcement that "she needs to talk to me" usually results in a quickened heartrate and a huge adrenaline dump. I know something is coming, and it might be good or bad.
Anyway, she told me that "awhile back"....I never found out when exactly that was, but I'm assuming a month or two ago....OM told her that he was going to email her on her birthday (which was Thursday the 25th...we were talking on Friday the 26th). The deal they had set up was that he wouldn't email her directly, but would send the message to an account of his (Hotmail, Yahoo, take your pick) and she had the login info so she could check the message.
That's the first thing that hit me....I had specifically asked her earlier in the week if she thought that there would be any problem with OM trying to contact her on her birthday. She didn't say no way, but she did say that she didn't think so....and she knew very well that he was because he told her that he would. So that was the first negative in the conversation. She basically lied to me.
Anyway, she said that she did not check the account or read the message. But she knew that if he didn't get a reply or something letting him know that she had read it, that it would prompt a call from him. I guess that's from past experience, so I have to trust her on that part. So instead of ignoring it completely and dealing with a call from him, she beat him to the punch and called him (that same day...Friday). She told me that her reason in calling him was to cut things off once and for all. She said that she told him that she had decided that she was going to stay with me. That she knew God's will was for her to stay married to me, and that there was no chance that she would ever leave me for him. That she no longer wanted him to be a part of her life and that it had to end once and for all.
From what I understand, he was pretty mad about that and I would guess that the conversation went downhill from there....I haven't asked for the transcripts.
That's the good part. But wrapped up in that good is the other big negative. The fact that she chose not to include me in this "breakup" or whatever you want to call it. She said she figured that I would insist on handling things myself (not sure why she figured that....I've not "handled" anything in regards to OM...I've felt like a complete spectator through this whole "relationship" they've had). She figured that I would not let her call him (she was right on that account) and that I would insist that she handle it via mail or email (probably the truth) and that she knew that he wouldn't take that seriously. Not sure why, but I guess I have to concede the fact that she knows him better that I do.
This whole thing made for an emotional weekend for me as I tried to deal with the fact that she shut me out of this and only told me after the fact. That and the fact that I always thought that she would come to me and tell me that she had decided to stay with me.....I didn't figure on hearing that fact while she told me what she had told OM. Guess I wanted to hear that first.

I supposed I'm splitting hairs being upset with the parts I'm upset with, but it's hard not to be. I am focusing on the fact that she dumped him and didn't leave any room for him to get back into the picture (as she did every other time they "cut things off"). I can see in her face and the way she acts that she feels free from him and the burden that she'd been dragging around.

So do I need to just forget the way it was done? Do I need a whack in the head or what?

Again, I'm not driving home to her that she did things the wrong way. I did let her know that I felt that, but I'm not berating her about it. I've told her that I couldn't be happier that it's over and that she's decided to stay with me....she knows I'm happy about that, and her actions and attitude have so far backed up what she's told me.

I guess I just feel some kind of need to seal things in a way. I want to contact OM and tell him that I know what has happened. That I know of the continued contact that they had all summer. That I know she told him that it was over. Just to kind of let him know that if he tries anything in the future that I'll know about that too. I don't know if that's rubbing it in his face...not my intent, I just want gently tell him to back off and leave us both alone. To remind him that 7 months ago he promised to get out of my life, and it's time he honored that promise. That getting out of my life also means getting out of her life because she is my life.

What should I do about that?

Any thoughts about the whole thing? I'm open to suggestions, and I'm interested to know if there's anything that should or should not be read into this.

Overall I see it as the best thing that's happened so far, but it's hard to just forget that she chose not to include me before the fact.

Good afternoon High,

Later wack-o
Reduced it to name calling have we?
I could say things about you too, BUT I WON'T !

Ha, Ha, you are pretty good, makes me wonder what you were thinking before you "got it".

Big happenings this weekend, which overall seem to be extremely good, but some aspects of it bring more questions and doubts.

More questions and doubts, yep, you are definitely married. Probably for more than 6 months.
One of these days I'll have to tell you a joke about that...................

I had specifically asked her earlier in the week if she thought that there would be any problem with OM trying to contact her on her birthday. She didn't say no way, but she did say that she didn't think so....and she knew very well that he was because he told her that he would. So that was the first negative in the conversation. She basically lied to me.
That's bad. They had communication methods set up on the sly, and she was keeping things from you. Makes you wonder about lots of things doesn't it. I would definitely talk about that with her, for future. Make sure she understands that it's in the past now (if it is for you, you could still retain anger) and that you want to straighten out the future. Does she want things set up so their can be these kind of secrets? Does she want that? She was keeping an out, not committing. At least she was honest about it, and it looks like you passed, but what about the future? I'm not sure how I would bring that up, but it seems like a way always presents itself in normal life. It would bother me too, it's not just you.

I may have ask her: "you say I have been good when you communicate hard stuff to me, I listen, I help you with it and I don't react with anger. If this is true, why did you feel it necessary to lie to me? I ask because unless we can have total honesty in the future, this won't work for me. Maybe it's time for a Q&A session to get everything out in the open, and then I can quit worrying, and you can quit hiding things. What would you think about that? "

Anyway, she said that she did not check the account or read the message. But she knew that if he didn't get a reply or something letting him know that she had read it, that it would prompt a call from him. I guess that's from past experience, so I have to trust her on that part. So instead of ignoring it completely and dealing with a call from him, she beat him to the punch and called him (that same day...Friday). She told me that her reason in calling him was to cut things off once and for all. She said that she told him that she had decided that she was going to stay with me. That she knew God's will was for her to stay married to me, and that there was no chance that she would ever leave me for him. That she no longer wanted him to be a part of her life and that it had to end once and for all.
From what I understand, he was pretty mad about that and I would guess that the conversation went downhill from there....I haven't asked for the transcripts.

Same thing - if she had told you in advance, you could have been there for the phone call, all your fears would have been swept away in her total honesty. Or at least mostly. This is the behavior of someone that has had, or is having an A. This is how they think. Hide everything, don't let BS know - what they don't know, won't hurt them.

If what she said is true, if it is cut off, then that is good. But a prepared statement is better than a drawn out call and argument. Do you know how long the call was? Oh well, if is from a script, sometimes the OP doesn't believe it, and it sounds like he does now. I hope his ego doesn't require him to try and win her back. That would suck. From the cumulative data, it would appear that if she says it is done, then it is done. I hope so for both your sakes.

That's the good part. But wrapped up in that good is the other big negative. The fact that she chose not to include me in this "breakup" or whatever you want to call it. She said she figured that I would insist on handling things myself (not sure why she figured that....I've not "handled" anything in regards to OM...I've felt like a complete spectator through this whole "relationship" they've had). She figured that I would not let her call him (she was right on that account) and that I would insist that she handle it via mail or email (probably the truth) and that she knew that he wouldn't take that seriously. Not sure why, but I guess I have to concede the fact that she knows him better that I do. At the least, she should have let you listen. It would have done wonders for your trust. Trust is an interesting concept in the context of an A. Trust needs to be restored on both sides. You seem to have done a lot to restore hers in your ability to make her happy, but does she understand that she needs to restore yours in her honesty if this is to work? I bet you can explain that to her if it has not been done yet. Trust is a two way thing, not a one way thing.

This whole thing made for an emotional weekend for me as I tried to deal with the fact that she shut me out of this and only told me after the fact. That and the fact that I always thought that she would come to me and tell me that she had decided to stay with me.....I didn't figure on hearing that fact while she told me what she had told OM. Guess I wanted to hear that first.

Yes, she has a problem with independent behavior. Of course you did before the A, and an A is the ultimate expression of that. Are you discussing this and working through it? Or are you holding it in, and biting your tongue?

I supposed I'm splitting hairs being upset with the parts I'm upset with, but it's hard not to be. I am focusing on the fact that she dumped him and didn't leave any room for him to get back into the picture (as she did every other time they "cut things off"). I can see in her face and the way she acts that she feels free from him and the burden that she'd been dragging around.

Thank her for this and make a big deal of the parts she was honest about. Splitting hairs? Are only her feelings important in your marriage? Are not yours equally important? Does she care about how you feel? If she does care, but does not realize the effect this had on you, then you need to tell her ( but always in a nice way.) Ha, Ha, I like to add that in, even if you don't need it any longer.

So do I need to just forget the way it was done? Do I need a whack in the head or what?

If you want a successful marriage, you both need to learn to talk about these things. I don't just mean that you will get to have a 50 year wedding anniversary. I mean you will be HAPPY about it when it comes. I think soul mates are made, not born. What the heck kind of marriage does she want? Poor, average, or really, really good? People with really, really good ones share their feelings and thoughts and consult the other about everything. They become one. Isn't that what she wants? Can you explain that better than what I just did? I hope so. I don't know if she would understand me.

Again, I'm not driving home to her that she did things the wrong way. I did let her know that I felt that, but I'm not berating her about it. I've told her that I couldn't be happier that it's over and that she's decided to stay with me....she knows I'm happy about that, and her actions and attitude have so far backed up what she's told me.

OK, that answers some of my questions, but again, what does she want in the future? I admit often to my W that I can't get past something unless we discuss it, and that we can't have a great marriage unless I get past it, so can we talk? She has put it off till she was more rested, or till we had more time, but she has never said no, or been angry with me explaining my feelings. It's plain that I do it with love, so she accepts that my feelings are just as important as hers, and we try to find a solution we both can be happy with. Working better all the time and I notice that it is much easier for her to care about my feelings as I consistently care about hers.

I guess I just feel some kind of need to seal things in a way. I want to contact OM and tell him that I know what has happened. That I know of the continued contact that they had all summer. That I know she told him that it was over. Just to kind of let him know that if he tries anything in the future that I'll know about that too. I don't know if that's rubbing it in his face...not my intent, I just want gently tell him to back off and leave us both alone. To remind him that 7 months ago he promised to get out of my life, and it's time he honored that promise. That getting out of my life also means getting out of her life because she is my life.

I don't know if it would do good, or harm. I mean, what kind of logic can be used to think it is OK to steal away someone else's wife in the first place? He has not been logical, or ethical yet, so I don't think he will be in the future either. It would probably work if he woke up one morning with a finger missing and a note that said " this is your last warning, if there is contact ever again, you will cease to exist." However, there are certain other problems associated with that method.

What should I do about that?
Discuss it with her, tell her to protect your feelings during this conversation, not his. Explain what this means to you. Explain why you need help with it, and ask her to help you. It may be that if she will do this, your desire to confront him will go away.

Any thoughts about the whole thing? I'm open to suggestions, and I'm interested to know if there's anything that should or should not be read into this.

If I could read her mind, I would comment more about this one, but I can't - and OH, THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM, YOU CAN'T EITHER.

Wow, sometimes it takes me a minute. You want so badly to trust her, but continued disrespect of your feelings makes this impossible. She wants you to give her trust, but she has to earn that, just as you have earned it. Talk to her, I see no other way out of this one but by communicating feelings on both sides.

Overall I see it as the best thing that's happened so far, but it's hard to just forget that she chose not to include me before the fact

Again, your feelings are just important as hers. What would she say if you asked her; " whose feelings are more important in our marriage, mine or yours? Would that give you an opener?

I simply tell my opinions and feelings, I find that you often find a better solution than I give here. Remember I am never trying to tell you what to do, just share thoughts and ideas. I trust you to make this work for BOTH OF YOU.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reduced it to name calling have we?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah.....well, you know. Whatever works.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">makes me wonder what you were thinking before you "got it".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've "gotten" so many things of late.....I guess you're referring to the fact that you're a smart-aleck joker?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's bad. They had communication methods set up on the sly, and she was keeping things from you. Makes you wonder about lots of things doesn't it. I would definitely talk about that with her, for future. Make sure she understands that it's in the past now (if it is for you, you could still retain anger) and that you want to straighten out the future. Does she want things set up so their can be these kind of secrets? Does she want that? She was keeping an out, not committing. At least she was honest about it, and it looks like you passed, but what about the future? I'm not sure how I would bring that up, but it seems like a way always presents itself in normal life. It would bother me too, it's not just you.

I may have ask her: "you say I have been good when you communicate hard stuff to me, I listen, I help you with it and I don't react with anger. If this is true, why did you feel it necessary to lie to me? I ask because unless we can have total honesty in the future, this won't work for me. Maybe it's time for a Q&A session to get everything out in the open, and then I can quit worrying, and you can quit hiding things. What would you think about that? "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it's not good anyway. But that's not really bothering me a whole lot now that some time has passed. Seems to be the normal way that I work. I've learned to let her know what's on my mind in kind of an outline form when things come up, but to give the real hot issues a few days. If they're still hot issues to me after pondering, praying and talking to myself for a few days, then I know that I have to talk to her about it to keep my sanity.
As for them communicating on the side....she said that she had never checked that account before. I gather that it was set up as a way for him to pass a birthday message off to her. Not 100% of that, but it's what I've assumed. If I thought that they had a bunch of back and forth in that way, it would be more on my mind.
As for her still hiding things.....I really don't think she is. Granted, she's not giving info up without being asked, but I don't really want that. I don't want to know unless I ask. I do know that she would tell me most anything.
One thing I did ask when she first told me this was the exact email address she checked. Granted we were still in the heat of the conversation (not argument, but tense conversation), but she would not give me that info. I haven't pressed again, but it was before I had told her how much I needed her honesty. Of course, that may not be the best info for me to have. Right after our talk Friday night, the biggest thing I wanted to do was get the login info from her and send OM a message to back off from his own email account. Figured that woudl send a message, but I don't think my W would go for that. That's kind of childish anyhow, and I don't want to give my W fuel against me by pulling a childish stunt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same thing - if she had told you in advance, you could have been there for the phone call, all your fears would have been swept away in her total honesty. Or at least mostly. This is the behavior of someone that has had, or is having an A. This is how they think. Hide everything, don't let BS know - what they don't know, won't hurt them.

If what she said is true, if it is cut off, then that is good. But a prepared statement is better than a drawn out call and argument. Do you know how long the call was? Oh well, if is from a script, sometimes the OP doesn't believe it, and it sounds like he does now. I hope his ego doesn't require him to try and win her back. That would suck. From the cumulative data, it would appear that if she says it is done, then it is done. I hope so for both your sakes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what bothers me the most. The creative way of emailing and all that.....doesn't really give me much grief. They've done that type of thing for close to 2 years now. I don't know all the ways, and I really don't want to.
If I could change one thing it would be for her to have come to me earlier, or even just spilled the story when I asked her point blank. Just told me that yes, she knew that he was going to email her on her birthday and, no, I don't plan to read it, I want to end things once and for all.
She may have been right that I wouldn't have let her talk to him. She said that a letter or email would not have cut it with him, and I believe that. But I think a letter or email, followed by her stonewalling him and not communicating would have gotten the point across, and it would have made me feel a whole lot better about things.
As it is, I'm fine with things now. I still need to work some of my feelings about it out with her (we've talked at length since Friday), but my W is out of town from today until Friday night, so I guess I'll just have to figure out what I really need to discuss with her and wait for her to come home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At the least, she should have let you listen. It would have done wonders for your trust. Trust is an interesting concept in the context of an A. Trust needs to be restored on both sides. You seem to have done a lot to restore hers in your ability to make her happy, but does she understand that she needs to restore yours in her honesty if this is to work? I bet you can explain that to her if it has not been done yet. Trust is a two way thing, not a one way thing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true. I don't know if I could have listened though. The thought crossed my mind, but I'm not sure if I could have kept quiet if he had expressed any kind of feelings for her. He might have thought that she'd come down with a sudden case of Tourettes Syndrom and was cursing him in ia mans' voice. That would have been good for a few chuckles.
She does understand that I need her honesty in order to trust her again. I was clear to her that the way she handled things not only didn't help, but it further hurt the trust I have been able to give back to her. She knows it and it seems to be important to her 99% of the time. Just when it comes to things like this.
She tried to get me to see that she had thought about not telling me anything about it to avoid the conflict, but she decided that she'd tell me after it was done. That didn't make me feel much better, but I guess I have to admit, she did more this time than she did last time they talked. At least she came to me, and I didn't find out 2 months down the road when I just happened to ask the right question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she has a problem with independent behavior. Of course you did before the A, and an A is the ultimate expression of that. Are you discussing this and working through it? Or are you holding it in, and biting your tongue?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is quite independant. She developed that line of thinking and that type of behavior during her A. She wanted to distance herself from me and make sure that she didn't need me for anything so it would be easier for her to leave when that time came. I take part of the blame for creating that monster. But it has almost totally reversed from what it was. I won't make a big issue of that, because I do see that she's still progressing towards being open and vulnerable to me. She's doing a good job, but there have just been some big issues that she's not quite passed my personal standards on the issue. But it's coming.
We are discussing it. I haven't used the words "independant behavior", but it has been talked about, and I know that she feels she's closer to ridding herself of that way of thinking than she ever has been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank her for this and make a big deal of the parts she was honest about. Splitting hairs? Are only her feelings important in your marriage? Are not yours equally important?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have made a big deal to her about her coming to me and being up front with me. She knows I appreciate and love her for that.
As for my feelings being important too....I've really never expressed that until last night. I guess I hadn't thought about it until you said it the way you did. I have been so focused on making her feel safe with me and at home and trying to keep her feelings a certain way, that I have neglected the way I feel about things. I think about it, but don't always vocalize it because I don't want to trample on hers. That's something I have to work on....I would say that's more my fault than hers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if it would do good, or harm. I mean, what kind of logic can be used to think it is OK to steal away someone else's wife in the first place? He has not been logical, or ethical yet, so I don't think he will be in the future either. It would probably work if he woke up one morning with a finger missing and a note that said " this is your last warning, if there is contact ever again, you will cease to exist." However, there are certain other problems associated with that method.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I like that method.

I know. He has no thought or feeling for what I think of feel. He's made it apparent that he only cares about himself and what he wants. This whole year has proven that to me over and over again.
I doubt very seriously that I'll contact him about it. Unless he does something stupid....then I won't hesitate. If he fades away I'm happy with that. I don't have to have the last word, even though it feels right to try to. Again, childish behavior. I just hope he's good and pissed off that he didn't get his way. That's bad to say I guess. The madder he is, the more likely he is to make an a** of himself.
Too, I have all these thoughts about how he's this and that and how I'd like to this and that. Then I think that his W probably feels alot of the same feelings about my W. When I think about that, it puts it in a different light because I don't want anyone thinking of her like that. I want to protect her from anyone that would point a finger at her and accuse her of doing wrong, even though she did.

She (my W) did tell me that she felt that even though she had driven the point home to OM that she wasn't going to leave me for him, that she figured that he would leave his W still. That really made me mad. I don't want to tangle my feelings up too much with their business, but I think about his W and son all the time and can't imagine how it would be if my W were still treating me the same way she was 6 months ago. Threatening to leave me and telling me how horrible I was and how bad our relationship had been. I don't know that he's still doing that, but if he's set on leaving, I doubt that he's being very nice either. It just pains me to think about. I'd like to give him a good smack in the skull....one ex good friend to another....and tell him to wake up and get a grip. Anyway......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Discuss it with her, tell her to protect your feelings during this conversation, not his. Explain what this means to you. Explain why you need help with it, and ask her to help you. It may be that if she will do this, your desire to confront him will go away</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have talked to her about it. Told her what I wanted to do to confront him and kind of seal things. I told her that if she had closed the door on them, I wanted to put an exclamation point on it by slamming it in his face.
She made it pretty clear that she didn't want me to do anything. She said that if I needed to, to write something out and "we'd sit down and look at it". That kind of made me ill. I mean, she hasn't asked my permission in anything, and I feel that I'm justified in handling this the best way I see fit....with or without her approval. I didn't say that, but I thought it.
She said that she hates to hurt people. That if I went to him and said that she had told me _______ and that I knew that she had ended it and whatever else, that I would be using her against him (true), and she hates to know that anyone is angry at her and doesn't want to feel that what she's told me is being used in that way.
OK, I understand that, but I don't see that she has much of a right to try to influence the way I feel I need to do things. I'm not trying to make it sound that this is a big conflict between us....we talked about it one time and it wasn't in anger. But I've thought about it a good bit. I just wish that she would support me in whatever I want to do. Stop caring about what he thinks or feels about her and care about how I feel about our relationship in general. That what I want and how I want to do things aren't going to line up with what he wants. We're totally different in that aspect. And if something I want to do would piss him off....oh well. Support me and prove to me that you care about me more than him.
Again, not that I want to do something against him for her to prove herself....I just want to know she cares about my feelings more than his. I guess that may take time though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I simply tell my opinions and feelings, I find that you often find a better solution than I give here. Remember I am never trying to tell you what to do, just share thoughts and ideas. I trust you to make this work for BOTH OF YOU.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is all I want. Sometimes I do things just the way I read them....sometimes I know that your way won't work in my case. But it gives me a place to start, or at least a place to start thinking.

One more thing. Sometime in our conversation Friday night, she brought up that she knew that I felt that all the methods I've read about (talking about NC) don't apply to her (I've said that she seems to convey that sometimes), but she said that when she first told me of the A, that she did not have the strength to just cut off contact cold. That she didn't know what she would have done or how she would have reacted had she really tried to do it (admitting that she didn't really know that), but she knew she couldn't do it (apparent because she told me she would try and it lasted a few weeks at most). She said she didn't want to come across as being a "special case" or an exception, but that the only way that she had the strength to resist reading his email to her last week, and to call him and end things once and for all...the only way she could do that was by gathering her strength over time. That me being there for her....not throwing her out or being overly angry when she came to me in February...taking her in and loving her when she said she didn't deserve to be loved....caring for her when she was horrible to me....that the last 7 months of that kind of behavior from me is what gave her the strength to do what she did. She said that 6 months ago there was no way she could have shut the door on things. Even a couple of months ago would have been really difficult, but because of how I had been to her and how I had slowly pulled her back to me, and that since God had worked on her heart as He has lately....she was strong enough to resist any temptation....any cold feet, and stand up to him and say it's over.
I guess that makes it worth it. I still think sometimes that it would have been nice if she had just gone through a long hard withdrawal right off....it would have given me strength when I needed it, but knowing that she does see some of what I've felt and done.....and that she feels that it helped her do what she had do to....later than I would have liked, but done anyway....that makes the journey more worth it.
I might not agree with the way she's handled everything, but if it turns out right in the end, I guess it doesn't matter, does it?

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

I've "gotten" so many things of late.....I guess you're referring to the fact that you're a smart-aleck joker??

I always thought it was YOU. Am I missing something here? I thought I was the straight man.

I've learned to let her know what's on my mind in kind of an outline form when things come up, but to give the real hot issues a few days. If they're still hot issues to me after pondering, praying and talking to myself for a few days, then I know that I have to talk to her about it to keep my sanity.

That's really good, some people never get that. It has been a hard one for me. I want to deal with it RIGHT NOW. I can learn - I'm slow, but I can learn.

..............As for her still hiding things.....I really don't think she is. Granted, she's not giving info up without being asked, but I don't really want that. I don't want to know unless I ask. I do know that she would tell me most anything.

I disagree about that one. I mean, you would need to know exactly what to ask sometimes or you would never find out anything. " are you still communicating with X?" "no dear, I have had no communication with him for over a year." However, I have taken up with Y, but you didn't ask me about that, so tough luck.

I am one that believes that leaving things out is a form of dishonesty. My example is extreme, but you get the idea. It is your life, so you get to do it how you want, but.............

One thing I did ask when she first told me this was the exact email address she checked. Granted we were still in the heat of the conversation (not argument, but tense conversation), but she would not give me that info. I haven't pressed again, but it was before I had told her how much I needed her honesty. Of course, that may not be the best info for me to have. Right after our talk Friday night, the biggest thing I wanted to do was get the login info from her and send OM a message to back off from his own email account. Figured that would send a message, but I don't think my W would go for that. That's kind of childish anyhow, and I don't want to give my W fuel against me by pulling a childish stunt.

The best motivation for him would be the one with the finger missing. Works every time.
I can't tell if she knows you really well, and she just wanted to give you time to think about it, or if she was protecting him, or if she was just trying to make it go away, and figured that was the best way. You would know better than I, but if it was best in the long run, she may just know you really well and be protecting YOU. She sounds like she almost instinctively knows the best route to go most of the time to create the least amount of waves.
Is she protecting you or trying to do so?

If I could change one thing it would be for her to have come to me earlier, or even just spilled the story when I asked her point blank. Just told me that yes, she knew that he was going to email her on her birthday and, no, I don't plan to read it, I want to end things once and for all. She may have been right that I wouldn't have let her talk to him.
You need to talk about this part if you have not done so. (my opinion again) Again, whose feelings are most important in your M? From the looks of this, she figures hers are? Ask her - see what she says.

She said that a letter or email would not have cut it with him, and I believe that. But I think a letter or email, followed by her stonewalling him and not communicating would have gotten the point across, and it would have made me feel a whole lot better about things. As it is, I'm fine with things now. I still need to work some of my feelings about it out with her ................

You are fine for a while, but the dark thoughts will come back if not worked out. What's the future going to be like? You agree to take each others feelings into consideration always, except if she changes her mind, she can do it her way when ever she likes? Does that make for trust, and strong marriages? Rub it in this time, but then get soft and explain why. You want to come to agreement about the future.

(we've talked at length since Friday), but my W is out of town from today until Friday night, so I guess I'll just have to figure out what I really need to discuss with her and wait for her to come home

I agree, but welcome her for a day or two or three before you bring it up. Don't blast her. Oh, no, that would have been me who did that, perhaps you are nice all the time.

She does understand that I need her honesty in order to trust her again. I was clear to her that the way she handled things not only didn't help, but it further hurt the trust I have been able to give back to her.

Good, you HAVE BEEN talking about it, but you need to reach AGREEMENT before you let it go.

She knows it and it seems to be important to her 99% of the time. Just when it comes to things like this. She tried to get me to see that she had thought about not telling me anything about it to avoid the conflict, but she decided that she'd tell me after it was done. That didn't make me feel much better, but I guess I have to admit, she did more this time than she did last time they talked. At least she came to me, and I didn't find out 2 months down the road when I just happened to ask the right question.

I think the point I would try to make if it was ME is that even if it was the very best way to handle it from her point of view, you feel betrayed. See if she can think of a way to avoid your ever feeling like that again. What are some other ways it could have been done? Does she just figure you will "get over it" and so it's OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> still seeking said:

Yes, she has a problem with independent behavior. Of course you did before the A, and an A is the ultimate expression of that. Are you discussing this and working through it? Or are you holding it in, and biting your tongue? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is quite independent. .......... I won't make a big issue of that, because I do see that she's still progressing towards being open and vulnerable to me. She's doing a good job, but there have just been some big issues that she's not quite passed my personal standards on the issue. But it's coming. We are discussing it. I haven't used the words "independent behavior", but it has been talked about, and I know that she feels she's closer to ridding herself of that way of thinking than she ever has been.

Again, that's good that discussion is ongoing. I figure in about 300 or 400 years my W and I will work most of this stuff out if we keep discussing it weekly. KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT.

still seeking said:
" Are only her feelings important in your marriage? Are not yours equally important? "

I guess I hadn't thought about it until you said it the way you did. I have been so focused on making her feel safe with me and at home and trying to keep her feelings a certain way, that I have neglected the way I feel about things. I think about it, but don't always vocalize it because I don't want to trample on hers. That's something I have to work on....I would say that's more my fault than hers.

If she is doing as good as you say she is, she will help you if you make this point. It's time to work on it together, with both getting help for hurts, and bad feelings. It's time for your taker to get something back for all your giver has done. You may or may not see it, but I can see that you sometimes have feelings that you bury. They have a way of showing up again when least expected if not taken care of the right way. ( and that is to work them out in discussion.)

She (my W) did tell me that she felt that even though she had driven the point home to OM that she wasn't going to leave me for him, that she figured that he would leave his W still. That really made me mad.

It would be hard to know. It would be natural for this to be part of his strategy to convince her to continue the A. It may not really be true. I hope she (OM's W) took advantage of what you told her and got the MB books too. It would really help her cope if she did. OM is still in the fog, and I almost said your W is too earlier (above) but she may have just taken in to account what she knows about you and did what she thought would work best. It is hard for me to know that without knowing both of you better than I do.

I don't want to tangle my feelings up too much with their business, but I think about his W and son all the time and can't imagine how it would be if my W were still treating me the same way she was 6 months ago. Threatening to leave me and telling me how horrible I was and how bad our relationship had been. I don't know that he's still doing that, but if he's set on leaving, I doubt that he's being very nice either. It just pains me to think about. I'd like to give him a good smack in the skull....one ex good friend to another....and tell him to wake up and get a grip. Anyway......

You could always do his big toe instead of his finger, that would affect his balance too.

She said that if I needed to, to write something out and "we'd sit down and look at it". That kind of made me ill. I mean, she hasn't asked my permission in anything, and I feel that I'm justified in handling this the best way I see fit....with or without her approval. I didn't say that, but I thought it. She said that she hates to hurt people. That if I went to him and said that she had told me _______ and that I knew that she had ended it and whatever else, that I would be using her against him (true), and she hates to know that anyone is angry at her and doesn't want to feel that what she's told me is being used in that way. OK, I understand that, but I don't see that she has much of a right to try to influence the way I feel I need to do things.

So which way is it? You both get input (POJA) or neither of you does (she does it her way, but hey, you do it YOUR way too. Tell her that you will do it if she will.
The things that SEEMS to suck sometimes (for me last night, and we had a discussion till about 2 am) is that I committed to POJA, but she often falls off the wagon. It tears me up to be the one that always does it right, and have her waffle. I walked up and down the drive way for quite some time last night before I could talk calmly about things, but to her credit, she did come get me after a while and ask me to come back and talk about things. I still have strong feelings there, perhaps I should shut up.

Being a attempted Christian, I know this is the right way, that's why I said it SEEMS to suck. I always know when it is all over that I did the right thing by continuing to follow correct principals even when she would not, but it is very hard when I am in the middle of it.

I'm not trying to make it sound that this is a big conflict between us....we talked about it one time and it wasn't in anger. But I've thought about it a good bit. I just wish that she would support me in whatever I want to do. Stop caring about what he thinks or feels about her and care about how I feel about our relationship in general. That what I want and how I want to do things aren't going to line up with what he wants. We're totally different in that aspect. And if something I want to do would piss him off....oh well. Support me and prove to me that you care about me more than him. Again, not that I want to do something against him for her to prove herself....I just want to know she cares about my feelings more than his. I guess that may take time though.

Perhaps you could print this paragraph (of yours above) out and have her read it. I don't think that you want to do something to him, I think you just want to feel that level of support from her.

.......... she said that when she first told me of the A, that she did not have the strength to just cut off contact cold. ............... she knew she couldn't do it ..................but that the only way that she had the strength to resist reading his email to her last week, and to call him and end things once and for all........the only way she could do that was by gathering her strength over time.

Remember that this is a process. Dr Harley gives "best case" methods, and then we try to live them. You and I are not supposed to LB, but sometimes we do. We hope our spouse forgives us for it. Your W is supposed to practice NC, but you really should forgive her too.

...taking her in and loving her when she said she didn't deserve to be loved....caring for her when she was horrible to me....that the last 7 months of that kind of behavior from me is what gave her the strength to do what she did.

She made mistakes, you helped her through it. Is her story the whole truth? Could she have done it cold turkey? I can't say. I don't know if you can say either. The only one that can say, tells us that we ought to forgive if we want to be forgiven. ( see the lords prayer) I tend to think he knows what he is talking about.

I might not agree with the way she's handled everything, but if it turns out right in the end, I guess it doesn't matter, does it?

You know, I think you just may be right about that. You may be 100% right.

SS

PS - that photo of you in St Louis, were you visiting, or do you live close?
My mom is from St Louis.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dang....the posts get longer and longer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought I was the straight man.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not even going to give much thought to any of the replies that come to mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to deal with it RIGHT NOW</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...me too. I've just had to train myself to sense when I'm starting to speak straight from my emotions without my brain having any say. That's when I have to stop and kind of think things over for a little while.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree about that one. I mean, you would need to know exactly what to ask sometimes or you would never find out anything. " are you still communicating with X?" "no dear, I have had no communication with him for over a year." However, I have taken up with Y, but you didn't ask me about that, so tough luck.

I am one that believes that leaving things out is a form of dishonesty. My example is extreme, but you get the idea. It is your life, so you get to do it how you want, but.............</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I said that the wrong way. I can't seem to get my mind wrapped around the correct way to say it. It's been a long day, and I'm dreading the next few days alone. I'm mentally drained. I'll have to put some thought into how to better word that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The best motivation for him would be the one with the finger missing. Works every time.
I can't tell if she knows you really well, and she just wanted to give you time to think about it, or if she was protecting him, or if she was just trying to make it go away, and figured that was the best way. You would know better than I, but if it was best in the long run, she may just know you really well and be protecting YOU. She sounds like she almost instinctively knows the best route to go most of the time to create the least amount of waves.
Is she protecting you or trying to do so?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My post A instinct is to say she was protecting him, but my logical, think it through side says she was trying to make it go away. I don't blame her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to talk about this part if you have not done so. (my opinion again) Again, whose feelings are most important in your M? From the looks of this, she figures hers are? Ask her - see what she says.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We spoke for a moment about that this morning. I didn't want to get into a deep discussion though...we only had a couple of hours before she left to go out of town....I didn't want to chance a bad exchange being our last conversation.
We'll talk about that later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are fine for a while, but the dark thoughts will come back if not worked out. What's the future going to be like? You agree to take each others feelings into consideration always, except if she changes her mind, she can do it her way when ever she likes? Does that make for trust, and strong marriages? Rub it in this time, but then get soft and explain why. You want to come to agreement about the future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point. I need to get her to see this.
BTW, what do you mean by "rub it in this time"? Just curious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, but welcome her for a day or two or three before you bring it up. Don't blast her. Oh, no, that would have been me who did that, perhaps you are nice all the time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I won't hit her with it right away. I'll be too happy to see her.
She says I'm nice most of the time...I don't think that highly of myself, but I'll just take her word for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the point I would try to make if it was ME is that even if it was the very best way to handle it from her point of view, you feel betrayed. See if she can think of a way to avoid your ever feeling like that again. What are some other ways it could have been done? Does she just figure you will "get over it" and so it's OK?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I do need to get better at not only telling her my thoughts, but working out a solution so it doesn't have to come up again. I guess I'm just still getting used to actually talking things through. The problem solving part isn't natural to me yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she is doing as good as you say she is, she will help you if you make this point. It's time to work on it together, with both getting help for hurts, and bad feelings. It's time for your taker to get something back for all your giver has done. You may or may not see it, but I can see that you sometimes have feelings that you bury. They have a way of showing up again when least expected if not taken care of the right way. ( and that is to work them out in discussion.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does want to help me. She's been great of late....I really couldn't ask for more. I just have to help her figure out how to best help me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would be hard to know. It would be natural for this to be part of his strategy to convince her to continue the A. It may not really be true. I hope she (OM's W) took advantage of what you told her and got the MB books too. It would really help her cope if she did. OM is still in the fog, and I almost said your W is too earlier (above) but she may have just taken in to account what she knows about you and did what she thought would work best. It is hard for me to know that without knowing both of you better than I do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmmm. I hadn't thought about him just telling her what might make her feel bad. I didn't ask exactly why she felt that. Maybe I need to. It is something I'd like to know. I'm just glad he didn't guilt her into anything else. That's my girl!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could always do his big toe instead of his finger, that would affect his balance too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or I could do both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So which way is it? You both get input (POJA) or neither of you does (she does it her way, but hey, you do it YOUR way too. Tell her that you will do it if she will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So that's what the MB 2x4 feels like!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I needed that. I try to look at things from both sides, but neglect to do so in some cases.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that you want to do something to him, I think you just want to feel that level of support from her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's exactly it. I don't want to "do" anything to him. I just want him to respect our wishes and just go away. Moving out of state would be wonderful.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember that this is a process. Dr Harley gives "best case" methods, and then we try to live them. You and I are not supposed to LB, but sometimes we do. We hope our spouse forgives us for it. Your W is supposed to practice NC, but you really should forgive her too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have forgiven her. I won't hold things against her now. And you're right that the stack of books are written from one pov. They can't fit every situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PS - that photo of you in St Louis, were you visiting, or do you live close?
My mom is from St Louis.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I had a conference to oversee at a church in St Louis. We had part of a day to see some sights. We're in Atlanta.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

OK, it's now 11pm, but I have a clearer head than I did at 5pm.....whatever that means....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">..............As for her still hiding things.....I really don't think she is. Granted, she's not giving info up without being asked, but I don't really want that. I don't want to know unless I ask. I do know that she would tell me most anything.

I disagree about that one. I mean, you would need to know exactly what to ask sometimes or you would never find out anything. " are you still communicating with X?" "no dear, I have had no communication with him for over a year." However, I have taken up with Y, but you didn't ask me about that, so tough luck.

I am one that believes that leaving things out is a form of dishonesty. My example is extreme, but you get the idea. It is your life, so you get to do it how you want, but.............</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I said that she wouldn't give up info with me asking, I didn't have in mind contact between the two of them. That's really the only thing I consider very important at this point.
I was more referring to details of the A. But I think that's normal of most all WS. She tends to skirt issues that have to do with what went on between the two of them.
Those are the things that I don't want to hear unless I ask.
As for contact between them.....well, yeah, up to this point, she's been like that with contact too. But I truly believe...and I don't really see it as wishful thinking....that it's really over now. I plan to have a talk when she comes back and really firm up some things that have kind of gone unsaid between us. Things like 1. Do you agree to have no contact with OM at all. 2. Do you agree to tell me ASAP if OM tries to contact you. 3. Do you agree to inform me if you think that OM is trying to make himself known to you. Etc. etc. I could probably make a list of 100 things, but I don't want to scare her off.
Those things need to be said and they will be said. And at this point, I believe that she will readily agree to them and follow through.
I can't really say exactly why I believe it's different now....there's just been a change in her. It's visible, yet unsaid. I can see it because I know her so well....and it's a good thing.

Hi again,

It's hard to get things across sometimes just typing. If you and I could sit and talk for a couple of hours sometime it would be much easier to understand. Don't worry about it, and remember, I don't think bad of you when I give my opinion, I am just giving my opinion. Sorry I can't understand better, and I just hope you don't get tired of me giving ideas.

BTW, what do you mean by "rub it in this time"? Just curious.

Sometimes when you talk, you sense she gets uneasy and you pull back. Don't pull back this time. Make sure she understands your point of view. Not that you force her into anything, but that she understands what things like secret communication and lying does to you emotionally, and also that it is two sided. Both of you need to commit to POJA ( or whatever you want to call it when you talk to her), it doesn't work if just ones does it. Up till now, it has been you. Review the concept of the giver and the taker and how they work with the POJA. It is enthusiastic agreement, not just agreement. Many times you have just agreed because you didn't know what else to do.

I don't think it has to be done on one day, sometimes it has taken me months to get ideas across to my W, but I do think you ought to work hard on this one, and not leave it alone - work it hard until she understands and agrees with you. It is the basis for so many other things you will work on in the future, kind of like both speaking the same language.

How are you coming on the goals? How does your W feel about them?

This may be a good time to work on it, while she is gone, and you are going crazy. Much better than watching
TV or playing video games. Or you can make a GOAL to do so much and then reward yourself for it with something you like after. Try that.
Write it down.

I like your balance. I admire your humility, but you also have confidence. At least you project that, and I hope you feel what you project. I believe your W loves you because you are lovable, not because she has to. When I say I believe you will do well, I have reasons, I don't just throw that out to make you feel good. Make sure you have personal goals for what kind of person you want to become. I take my goal for that from Matt 5:48. I need work, but that's my goal.

As for your boundries. They all start with "Do you agree"
I think a great deal about how to make things easier for others to take. How would it be to start out with:
"This has affected me emotionally much more than I thought any thing ever could. There are things you can do to ease my mind and and help me with our future. Can we agree that you will have no contact in the future with OM........ and so on."

I know that it is really up to her to agree, but "can we agree" includes you, and it is softer and less demanding sounding. I'M NOT CHEWING YOU OUT, JUST MAKING SUGGESTIONS.

I can do shorter, if shorter is needed.
How's that?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">remember, I don't think bad of you when I give my opinion, I am just giving my opinion. Sorry I can't understand better, and I just hope you don't get tired of me giving ideas.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't come here if I didn't want opinions and ideas. I don't understand everything the first time either....that's why I ask for clarification on things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes when you talk, you sense she gets uneasy and you pull back. Don't pull back this time. Make sure she understands your point of view. Not that you force her into anything, but that she understands what things like secret communication and lying does to you emotionally, and also that it is two sided. Both of you need to commit to POJA ( or whatever you want to call it when you talk to her), it doesn't work if just ones does it. Up till now, it has been you. Review the concept of the giver and the taker and how they work with the POJA. It is enthusiastic agreement, not just agreement. Many times you have just agreed because you didn't know what else to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I am apt to hold off if I feel that the conversation might not go well. That's the conflict avoidance that I have to deal with in myself. I'm slowly getting over it.
Well, when I don't know exactly what to do, I try to do what worked the last time. It's kind of a coin toss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How are you coming on the goals? How does your W feel about them?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've gotten some shorter term goals down on paper. Of course, I promptly misplaced the paper. I know I could think through and come up with them all again, but I want to find my original sheet that had all my scribbling and notes and things on it. Gotta be around here somewhere.
I listed some of the high points for her with the understanding that we'd talk more in depth when the time made itself available.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be a good time to work on it, while she is gone, and you are going crazy. Much better than watching
TV or playing video games. Or you can make a GOAL to do so much and then reward yourself for it with something you like after. Try that.
Write it down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully I'll have some time for this tonight. I'm also busting my hump, trying to get my basement finished before the first week of November. We've got some company coming into town to stay with us and I want them to have the downstairs to stay in. That tends to suck up most of my free time at home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe your W loves you because you are lovable, not because she has to.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this. I know this for a fact. As far as things have come back, I know that the love she feels for me is from her heart, not out of obligation or anything like that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can do shorter, if shorter is needed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No shorter....I like the long posts....it gives me plenty to mull over.

I'm also busting my hump, trying to get my basement finished before the first week of November.

Gee whiz, that puts a whole new light on things. How do you even have time to come here?

When we built our home about 12 years ago we didn't have the money to finish the basement so I told my W we could do it later. She said: "No, we'll do it now, or else it will never get done." And we did do it then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Your W is lucky, she has a guy that finishes basements for her on some kind of scedule.

I built a 6 ft tall rock wall and laid down a natural flagstone walk though, and the walk is almost finished after being in the home 11+ years. It's a long story - but I do grow a garden each year, and have planted a peach tree, boysenberries, rasberries, grapevines and shade trees.

Mostly I go camping a lot, but she goes with me - so it's not all bad. I work in a camping store to feed my addiction.

Not much help this time, am I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Are you close to any of your family? I can't remember you mentioning them as part of your support group.

SS

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

We've been in this house for about 4 and a half years. It was a foreclosure and had been a rental house for a good while. Needless to say it was pretty well trashed. We came close to gutting the upstairs before we moved in to get things so we could move in and have been getting each room to our liking in our "spare" time.

The basement had a few walls haphazardly thrown up. I tore all that out and finished one half of it by year 2. I finished my half first. The part with the pool table and theater in it. Shows where my priorities were at that point in my life.
Now I'm to the practical half. The laundry room and extra bathroom. I'm about burnt out on it, but I'm in the home stretch. Just about ready to hang the ceiling grid and replace the stairs so the carpet can go down and the plumber can finish the fixtures in the bathroom. Then it'll be useable for the company we have coming in from Canada (they're in our church's mission conference this year) to stay with us in November. They'll just have to live with the lack of finish trim and other odds and ends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your W is lucky, she has a guy that finishes basements for her on some kind of scedule.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess. I usually set my timetable way too short and run myself into the ground trying to get things finished. Plus I have a trip week after next....it's needed, but kind of at a bad time. I'll have to pry myself away from working at the house and focus on leaving it at home so I can relax and have a good time.

Addicted to camping??? That's a cool addiction. We both like to camp, but we rarely ever do it. Yeah....we had plans to go camping with OM and his W first of this year. But you know how that went <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you close to any of your family? I can't remember you mentioning them as part of your support group.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am very close to my parents. We live about 3 miles from them. My dad is the driving force behind most of the work I do at home. He's a jack-of-all-trades, so it's saved me a butt-load of money to have him around. He knows how to do a little of everything. In fact, we're working tonight for a few hours.
As for a support group....not really. Going back, there's only one other person that knows of our situation (other than our MC), and it's not family. I've wanted to tell my mom about things because she would be great support for me. She's one of the most Godly women I've ever known and she's a huge prayer warrior to boot. Plus ....... well, my parents have gone through the same thing, so my mother has been in my shoes before. Granted, their marriage has never really recovered. They're still together, but there's not much there between them. They live in the same house and go about their business together, but that's about it. There's nothing deep there. My dad never really did the 180 he needed to do for things to heal. But that's another story.

I clued my mom in to the fact that things were rocky between my W and I right before I found out about the A, and she asked me if it were possible that there was another man in the picture. At that time, the thought had never occurred to me and I said no way. That's never been brought up again, but she suspected I guess. I've kicked around telling her, but I know that would cause a huge rift between my W and I. She still thinks that everyone would want to stone her if they "knew what she had done". She knows my parents both love her like they're own daughter. She's closer to my parents than she is hers (and her's live about 10 miles away...no problems between them...they just have 6 kids and not much time to dole out). But that's what she thinks and I'll just go along with it.

She still thinks that everyone would want to stone her if they "knew what she had done"............that's what she thinks and I'll just go along with it.

I could swear that we talked about this one before.
"I'll just go along with it."

Whose feelings are more important, hers or yours?

The beauty of the MB method, is that there is a way to work these things out. It is work if you are a conflict avoider, but you already know how much work it is if you don't work it out. Which one is worse?

Ha, this is what I mean by rub it in. You already know this, I have told you before, and you already believe it after a fashion. But, you looked at it again - and you peeled off another layer and hopefully you are a little more converted. If you are a little more converted, it will be easier for you to DO something about it.

Now, I am not saying you should go and tell everyone, because at this point, it could do more harm than good, but think about how you are going to make your feelings of equal importance in your relationship, and then BEGIN.

Here's a poem for you to think about, I learned it over 20 years ago from a good friend of mine.

Six days a week the devil works,
works overtime on Sunday.
And then he's ready once again
to go to work on Monday.

So if all evil you would shun
and keep your conscience level,
you must begin at early dawn,
and work just like the devil.

SS

BTW,
when you have the talk about agreeing upon the principals with which to establish your future marriage, think about what you said about your own parents, and point this out to your W. Ask her what kind of relationship she wants - one like that, or a much better one.

I can tell you that the MB way works, I can tell you that from personal experiance - from a marriage of 26 years with lots bumps, and many highs. It gets better monthly for us. That's why I encourage you in POJA, and so on. It really works.

SS

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

OK, maybe "go along with it" was a flippant way to put it.
I don't want to say anything about it at this point. I do feel that it would do much more harm than good. I think "go along with it" was what I did until these last few weeks. Up until I felt that I had my W's sympathetic ear.
Yeah, these last 7 months, I could have used someone for support, because the support I got from my W was hit and miss. But now it's constant. There are still touchy subjects, but I understand that and agree to be sensative to her feelings when it comes to things like that. Not to say that I have to skirt any issues, but I do take extra care when bringing them up. I think that's just part of loving her the way I'm supposed to.
Now I feel that I can get the support I need from her, so I don't feel the need to get outside support. I know my mother could have been a tremendous help to me, but that was then and this is now. I should have taken my needs and feelings into more consideration.....but I didn't. Yes, I feel that I'll learn from that and many other experiences dealing with that. But I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything by not having told more people.
Again, things seem to be working out, so I'm fine with the mistakes I have made.

See, you left a hole so big I could have drove a truck into it. That opening made it possible for both of us to talk some more about things. Communication is cool, and you know that already, and you are further ahead than I have given you credit for - until now.

Stating things a little off what you mean isn't always bad. Sometimes it's hard to be exact, and I wasn't jumping on you. I don't think you need to tell now either, I think it's in the past, but the future, the future is where you get to have your feelings be equal.

Na, I wasn't jumping on you about telling.

If you can get hold of some plans for a 5 to ten milllion dollar house, you can do a good play on goals. Get them out and start to go over them on the kitchen table. When she askes what you are doing, tell her that you heard about the mansions in heaven, and you have been seting goals, and ............ hold up the plans and shrug your shoulders.

SS

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There's a 1+ million dollar house for sale not too far from us. I should go get some info on it.

Might as well work up to the 10 mil house.

Here's a question for you. I know I'll figure this out eventually, but every little bit helps....

I know one thing that I do really gets under my W's skin. But it's an automatic reaction (due in many parts to the "new" way I think post A) to an some lingering (though unconcious) independant behavior on my W's part.

Since the A (and sometimes I was like this before, but moreso now) I tend to want things to work a certain way. I guess I want to know how certain things are going to happen. I guess it's from wanting my W to inform me of every little thing.

Now I'm not talking about anything that has to do with the A or OM or anything like that, but my expectations from that have leaked over into "normal" day to day life.

Example: With my W out of town this week, I talked to her this morning and asked her to call me when they got on the road to come home so I'd have an idea of when she'd be home. Well, she called me about 2:30, but they had been on the road for over 2 hours. This just automatically irritated me and even though I didn't say anything to her on the phone (didn't want to have that kind of conversation overheard by others), the irritation comes through in my voice, and I could tell by her reaction that she had caught it....though she probably has no idea of exactly what I'm irritated about. To her it's just "Oh, what's he ill about now??".

To me, it all goes back to her not taking my feelings seriously. Now, we've always talked about this type of thing in the light of her A and related subjects.....never in terms of every day stuff, so I guess we've never really talked about it as it applies specifically in this case.

But another part of me thinks that I'm just being anal and controlling (and probably a little how my W feels about me). I don't want to come across that way, because I certainly don't want to be a dictator and have my W be a pawn that I control. I just want to know about what's going on with her on a more detailed scale than I ever have before. I feel it's part of rebuilding trust.

I guess that she just doesn't understand that because I haven't communicated that to her clearly. ????

What's your take on that?

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

Oh...and another thing....

Just kidding. I feel like every time I post I'm pointing out a problem or potential problem.
I read so many posts and most of the things you hear and read about are not the most encouraging things. I don't want to fall into the habit of only just conveying negative things....especially about my W. So I thought I'd share a few things she's shared with me lately that have lifted my spirits and made me so optimistic for the future.
Seems like I posted some quotes from my W towards the beginning of this thread. Those were filled with phrases as "full of crap" or "I feel like I'll get shafted if I do the "right thing", etc etc.
My how things change.......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am excited to see where God's plan is going to take you and I. I know He has one and after all we've been through I think it's going to be a good one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for all the encouragement and help that you've been to me over the past year! Without you to hold me up I don't know how I would have made it! Between your strength and prayers I believe you got me through this year and I can never tell you "thank you" enough!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for your patience as we've worked together through this years process. You've been so patient, loving, kind and forgiving...THANK YOU! Without you I don't know where I'd be. You know, I used to be a stronger, more independent person but now I feel like a weakling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for taking care of me and carrying my load on your back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey...just thought I'd shoot you an email for Tues afternoon. Thank you for being so great to me and clinging to what you know to be true and right. I guess it has taken me awhile to come around to what is right. Like I said...I think I'm a slow learner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

More than anything I guess I appreciate the fact that you haven't pushed me. You've given me time AND space to work through things and process them at my own speed. Thank you for that. I am sorry it has taken so much time but I think it was needed. Needed for me to figure some things out and needed for some healing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks so much again for all you've done and have meant to me. You are the greatest!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that this past year has been hard on you. I have hated that but I knew I had to work through some things. Time....has been a blessing to me...but hard for you. Thank you though for being there and waiting paitently.

I know that at times you wanted to push me but you have been so great in just being patient! thanks!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....(edited for content <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )......I am glad that you think of me in such ways. I really want you to. More than that...I'm glad that you feel open enough to share such with me! That means SO MUCH to me! To know that your walls are coming down and you are making an effort to open yourself up to me....wow that is incredible! I honestly NEVER thought that this would happen. Thank you for being willing to work on this area of our marriage. It is something that I have longed for over the years...someone to share and be open and vulnerable with.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I used to work construction, and I don't know if one Mil will do it these days. You can blow that much on a pretty small home in this market, however, work with what you have. You may do just as well if you can download photos of nice places from the net and print them out and hang them all in a row and stare at them from time to time as if you are trying to decide which one you want. Involve her too - " do you like this one? I don't know, the roof seems a little off, I may want to change it...." And when she says "what in the world are you talking about?" spring it on her. I love jokes that make other people feel good.

Here's a question for you. I know I'll figure this out eventually, but every little bit helps....

Actually, you would figure it out. I am still working on that one, (as you explain it below) but I have learned some things about us than I can pass on for what it's worth. And while I am on this subject, I am now 48 years old, and I lave been around a few more days than you have. It is natural that I have had more experiences than you have had and If I learned from them that I would have insight in to some things that you would not. It does not mean I am right all the time, or that I think I am smarter than you. In fact, ( and this is why I bring it up) I believe by the time you get to 48 you will be far ahead of me in understanding marriage, and in life in general. I think you are that good. You need to believe that, and you need to keep setting and reaching goals, but if you do, you will do much better than I have. I'll expect it now, so you have another goal to worry about. And no, I am not making this up. Some of the biggest doubts we have are usually in our own abilities, but there is no reason for you to doubt. I could say more about this one, and give my reasons, but I don't have the time now. You need to believe in your self, I hope you do. You'll have one reservation when you read this, and I can address it later. Before you read this far, you will think: "I may have the ability, but do I have the motivation? Can I make myself do that well?" I think you can, and will.

I know one thing that I do really gets under my W's skin. But it's an automatic reaction (due in many parts to the "new" way I think post A) to an some lingering (though unconscious) independent behavior on my W's part.

Since the A (and sometimes I was like this before, but more so now) I tend to want things to work a certain way. I guess I want to know how certain things are going to happen. I guess it's from wanting my W to inform me of every little thing.

Now I'm not talking about anything that has to do with the A or OM or anything like that, but my expectations from that have leaked over into "normal" day to day life.

Example: With my W out of town this week, I talked to her this morning and asked her to call me when they got on the road to come home so I'd have an idea of when she'd be home. Well, she called me about 2:30, but they had been on the road for over 2 hours. This just automatically irritated me and even though I didn't say anything to her on the phone (didn't want to have that kind of conversation overheard by others), the irritation comes through in my voice, and I could tell by her reaction that she had caught it....though she probably has no idea of exactly what I'm irritated about. To her it's just "Oh, what's he ill about now??".

Ok, we all do that to an extent - things bother us, and it shows in our countenance. Part of it is just that we are different people. Do you squeeze the toothpaste from the bottom of the tube, or the top? How do you like your eggs cooked? Which is better - Ford trucks or Chevy? What's your favorite movie? What kind of music do you listen to when you can play whatever you want? There are differences in the way we do things too. My W would always call when she reached her destination, I would never call. I figured if something happened, the State Troopers would call her. I learned after coming here, that she has feelings and that it is her feelings that are important, not me calling or not calling. So, if I care about how she feels - her fears, and so on, I call her. In marriage it is especially important that we extend care and that we protect the others feelings. It is the most important and most rewarding relationship we can have other than our relationship with God, and he seems to place marriage almost equal with that when he talks about marriage.

The feelings you have are magnified by what has happened to your relationship. It is not something that she should take lightly. Are your fears silly? Perhaps they are, but are your feelings silly? NO, no they are not. When someone has fears, or when we can do something to help them relax and feel better about something in our relationship, we should do that thing - whatever may be. Sometimes that isn't practical, but we negotiate solutions, not demand them. things can be worked out if both parties care about the others feelings. Sometimes in the demands of the moment we forget. I did a business trip in August and my ride showed up while I was packing - I didn't even check my list, just closed my brief case and got in. We had to come back a few miles (after we picked up another passenger) and get some trade show badges. I never intended to leave them, but I made a mistake.

To me, it all goes back to her not taking my feelings seriously. Now, we've always talked about this type of thing in the light of her A and related subjects.....never in terms of every day stuff, so I guess we've never really talked about it as it applies specifically in this case.

You don't know if she didn't think she needed to call, or if she was rushed and forgot. All the personality differences come out in things like this. You may think it would be impossible to forget for 2 hours, but she may be different than you and it really might not have come to her mind. Not because you are not important, but because her mind works differently. ( if you have been married more than I week, you know her mind works differently) Even if she thought about it, and thought: "He wanted me to call, but I really can't see how it would hurt to wait a while." it might just be a personality difference, and not that she doesn't care.

Her personality was changed by the A, and it will take a while to change back. You do need to share your feelings, but it can be done very low key.
" Well, now that you have been back for a few hours, I wanted to apologize for something. When you called, you may have felt the edge in my voice. I was worried because you hadn't called when you left as I had asked you to call. After all that has happened, things like that tend to be triggers for my emotions, and it sets off something in side me that I have a hard time dealing with. When that happens, please don't feel that I don't love you. Please know that I want to work these kinds of things out so I don't have those feelings, but it will probably take a year or more. If you can remember to make those calls it would help me soooo much. OK?"

That's the way I would do it. ( and again, you need to do it your way, this is just an example) You don't apologize for your feelings, you apologize for they way they came out at a time when things couldn't be fixed. You ask for help with fixing them. You explain again how she could really help.

But another part of me thinks that I'm just being anal and controlling (and probably a little how my W feels about me). I don't want to come across that way, because I certainly don't want to be a dictator and have my W be a pawn that I control. I just want to know about what's going on with her on a more detailed scale than I ever have before. I feel it's part of rebuilding trust.

That can be part of the discussion. You don't need to say " I need to know where you are every minute of the day." You say: "It scares me now when I don't know where you are. I am trying to get over these feelings, but I need your help, and more time. Please call me, and please let me know what is going on so I don't worry - Please help me with these feelings I am trying to get over."

I guess that she just doesn't understand that because I haven't communicated that to her clearly. ????

Remember that there could be many reasons - more than I listed above. She may not realize what is going on any more than you do, but continued communication will be a big help. She is COMING OUT OF THE FOG, she is not FOG FREE. It will take her a while to understand and respond to your feelings. She tries to empathize with you, but she doesn't know the depth of your pain and what you endured. You have the ability to give her time, and you can do that, but talk to her also as you go along to help her understand. Keep it in terms of your feelings about what happens, not about "she does this", or "she doesn't do that. "

What's your take on that?

It always seems like I am telling you what to do, and how to fix things. It may seem like it ought to be her that does something different. Well, she ought to, but you can't directly affect that. You can only improve things on your side, learn to communicate better, be an example of respecting her feelings and hope she will do it for you too.

My W is a good follower, she can follow better than I can lead. I am working on becoming a better leader.

SS