I don't really want standard MB advice (eg. do more plan A! Go to plan B! Go to plan Dv!). I've been avoiding posting lately because that's all I ever seem to hear. Today I just really wonder what you folks might think of this recent behaviour on the part of my H.

Yesterday, after a great weekend, and feeling in an upbeat and in control of my emotions mood, I went over to my H's house. My intent was to ask what he had decided or what he wanted. He said he didn't know what he wanted, other than the fact that he wants to avoid thinking and making any decisions about anything. So as I even noted in my sig. line, I take that to mean basically, he isn't willing to work on saving our M. The whole time I was over at his place yesterday he kept asking me if I wanted to have sex, or if I wanted to go home. I told him I didn't want to choose, just like he didn't want to make any choices. So we sat and watched tv for a while while he kept asking me the same question every so often and I kept refusing to choose.

Eventually, I left, b/c I didn't want to have sex, and told him so, b/c I felt that things haven't changed at all in months when I've just had sex with him, so why let things continue this way. He yelled after me that I'd regret leaving. I did lots of crying unfortunately while I was there. I did a fair bit of apologizing b/c he was fairly sad and upset about some things. But by the time I left, I was just dumbfounded by how little he cared about how upset I was.

Today, he called me early in the evening to pass on a phone message, and followed it up with a "want to have sex?" routine. I just didn't answer him and paused and then he said, well at least you are considering it. I said no, I don't want to have sex. He said he had his answer and was going. I told him to wait, I had one question for him. I asked him: do you want to be married to me? He answered with the same question again, do you want to have sex with me? I said you know I want more than that. He said well I have my answer then, and I said I guess I have my answer too, and the call ended.

In between there he called while I was on the phone and left a message saying, "See, in our last conversation that's the independant woman attitude I can't stand."

Then he called back a couple hours later asking where I was, because he'd called me two hours ago, as though I should be over there at his house already or something. He also pointed out that he called me 2 hours earlier than usual. I still told him I didn't want to have just sex, that I wanted more, etc. He called me independant woman, and callous and cold again. We had a couple of conversations, that weren't overly productive, but my answer was still that I didn't care to go over there.

So guess what? He shows up here a while after the last call. Must be one horny boy I tell you. That came across as desperate to me, or like he actually maybe cared. I wasn't sure which one it was, that he was horny or he cared. He came in all smiley and giggly trying to be nice saying he would show me what I needed. I said are you here just to sleep next to me or what? He said he could do that. Yeah bull, we get into bed and he eventually works up to trying to touch me sexually and I stopped him. I told him I didn't want to do that, reminded him he said he could just sleep next to me, he told me he just wanted to go back quietly to what we were doing, that maybe he just wanted to give me pleasure (what a crock, I know he wanted it too). I said look, if you want to continue, there's something I want to know. It may upset you that I ask this, but I need to know before things can go any further. I asked him if when he went camping this past weekend if he went alone with his brothers or if he took one of his girlfriends, or both, and if he shared a bed with both or one of them or slept alone. Then he got very mad, asked again if we could just go back to what we were doing and I said no I needed an answer.

Next he repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER more times than you could probably imagine, in a fairly adamant and strong if not angry tone, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU JUST DID, NONE." So I asked him to tell me what I had "just done". He just repeated himself, said I should know. I told him that I can't be intimate with someone who can't be open and honest with me. I reminded him that I'll answer any questions he asks. He still refused to answer and repeated the same darn phrase. Then he got dressed, told me I'd be living my life alone, and went to leave. I kept asking him quietly and calmly to explain, but he wouldn't. I said how can you expect me to be intimate with me if I don't know if you spent the weekend cuddling up next to another woman in bed or not? He said he had been cuddling with plenty of women on the weekend. Then he demanded that I get out of the way and let him leave. He had to ask me a few times, because I reminded him that I don't know what I've done, and there's no way I can know if he won't tell me. Then as he left he said this was the last time I'd see or hear from him (yeah right, where have I heard that before?), until June 3rd when we'd sit down and file the papers. I let him leave.

I was so tempted to phone his girlfriends and ask them questions, but didn't, I knew better. What difference would it make what the answers were, right?

I've been talking to lawyers and I'm fairly convinced I'm just about ready to file for Dv anyway, I just didn't think I'd have to do it so soon. Now I'm considering filing before June 3rd so I beat him to it.

All in all, it's like he either a) wants to have everything his way, with me in continual apologetic grovelling mode, undeserving of any more than the sexual scraps he gives me, while he also gets to spend his social time with his brothers and girlfriends, but not me, OR b) he is just trying to get the last of his free sex in with me before he files anyway.

Oh, BTW, my SIL told a mutual friend last week that she thinks (but isn't sure) that my H and that "C" woman are actually seeing each other. Another friend of a friend saw them together at a bar recently and they seemed "cuddly". And my sources indicate that he most likely went camping with "C" and that the other female friend "A" stayed home.

Funny thing, I wasn't at all emotional about tonight's events. I'm completely calm, and generally just perplexed by him. All this just strengthens my resolve to file for Dv. Who wants to be married to a man like that??

So, on to my question: what the heck is going on in my H's head in any of your experienced opinions?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen,
You know the first thing that popped into my head when I read your thread was. 7 yrs into our marriage I left my husband for a period of 8 months. That was 10 yrs ago now.. and it seems like an enernity ago .. when I screamed at him ...YOU THINK YOU CAN SOLVE IT ALL WITH SEX.MORON.

Thats how he was ... sex sex sex would and could fix everything and anything when things got ugly between us.
He just knew no other way... he did spend months in councelling and yeah we did reconcile and things were darn good with his new abilty to talk instead of shag... well thats till his family entered the big picture again...and we all know what happened last yr.

I maybe way off but maybe he knows no other way than that to fix it... and he trys to keep your connection there with sex.

Best I can do based on my own experiences.

Dino.

Jen,

Giving U my 2 cents for what it is worth..... Your H still is clinging to you. He is drawn to you in a way he can't explain nor deny. This must make him frustrated because it seems like he wants to make you angry so that he will have a reason to be angry at you. When you difuse him, it gets him frustrated and hence the double talk.

What to do? Well as I have told you before, for him to heal you need to give him his space. Remove yourself and his personal crutch.

See as long as he knows you will put yourself in his destructive path, he will continue to run over your emotions. Maybe he can't help himself. The A does strange things to one's mind so that logical steps are not visible. Navigating through life becomes difficult. He will appear to be unsteady to many as if he is in a drugged or drunk like state.

IMHO, don't be there to be his crutch. He will only heal in a crooked manner. Then blame you for making him look deformed for the rest of his life.

Honey, I know you want answers and want help him but right now the help he needs is to be away from you so that you will look priceless and not like a punching bag.

My WS said on one of his return trips home that if I had NOT put my foot down, he would have allowed himself to continue taking advantage of me (financially, SF, EN, etc.). That made me angry. But it was the truth and I could knew it. So I had to let go. He was almost in tears telling and saying he didn't know why he was acting this way.

The longer you keep enabling him, the longer his recovery will take.

JMHO,
L.

My take on this is that he happy playing this little drama by threats and trying to have sex with you. He sounds so immature. You have been in fact enabling this behavior. I agree with you that you should file for divorce immediately.
He thinks you are so pathetic that you will continuously plead to stay married to him forever. When he gets the divorce papers he may in fact be forced to grow up and understand the reality of the situation. If not then it is time for you to look and meet someone else in the future who is mature enough and not such a mental abuser to have a life with. My guess is that you will find someone and be happy with in the future and he will end up alone because he is a immature man/boy who refuses to accept responsibility for any of his actions or inacations. This silly drama will continue until you are mature enough to put an end to it. I wish you luck.

Okay here is my take. I see alot of anger, bitterness and hate in his actions.

Now that begs the question...is there really a fine line between love and hate or is it just hate?

I think he has hit the stage where he doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you either.

But he also wants to "punish" you by making sure you know he has plenty of other women.

Sex is a mixed thing for most males. On the one hand men do express emotions more physically than woman...why else do explain when men are in a group called a football huddle they pat each others butt but woman don't do that after a wedding shower. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So yes it can be emotions involved.

But for many males with low self esteem sex is about power and ego. I suspect in your husband's case its about power. I especially think this because he only wants to have sex without any intimacy. Also look at his repeated statement:
In between there he called while I was on the phone and left a message saying, "See, in our last conversation that's the independant woman attitude I can't stand."

Independant in male-a-neese translates to "I can't control you."

So yes I think he is still trying to control you and punish you at the same time. In reality I don't think he is all that "horny" as you put. After all if he is that angry and bitter with you it takes away from the pleasure side. Indeed sex with a stranger or new person is much better than sex with someone you raging against. Unless its sex with someone you want to control or pull down.

Just my two cents worth dig up another 48 cents and you can call me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just kidding.....honest bunchessorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Jen,

Out of all of these responses, IMHO, I think you should listen to ORCHID . Your WS is a lot like mine is so many ways. I have followed Orchid's advice and it has rung true for me. I believe your WS is clinging to you in an immature way. In order to help them, we have to try not to rescue and enable. When they hit bottom, they will come back to us and we have to be strong enough to really be able to help them if they come back or if we want them when they do come back. Hope this makes sense.

I've been reading the literature about CODEPENDENCY because our WSes are like alcoholics. They want us to help them continue to drink. The key for us is to DETACH, DETACH, knowing we are powerless over them and their addictive behavior. We can only control ourselves. This was suggested to me by Steve Harley.

In regards to sex, throughout my marriage, my H really expressed his love to me through sex. It was not just a physical thing. So now, SF is a bonding experience between us. I, like you, though, need to cut it off in order to not let him use this to continue his emotional connection with me. I want his WHOLE HEART, not just a piece of it. It should not be assumed that it is just a physical act for all men. That is a myth.

Take Care.

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks all for your perspective on things. I only have time for a quick reply right now. I do see now that I am enabling him, to an extent. I refused his sexual advances the last two times, and I am so glad I did.

mimi1254, where is "the literature about CODEPENDENCY" that you are referring to? On the MB site? Or do you just mean in general? I find it interesting that you refer to him as the WS. He's originally the BS and I'm the FWS. However, I've been told many times that his behaviour is like that of a WS now.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find it interesting that you refer to him as the WS. He's originally the BS and I'm the FWS. However, I've been told many times that his behaviour is like that of a WS now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not? In fact it was HE who had started an EA way before you had your 2 ONS with his BF, and he is still continuing it. Your H is a cake walker because he has one woman who is satisfying some of his EN's like admiration and recreational companionship, and another woman (you) who is (or was) satisfying his EN for sexual fulfillment. And like all cake walkers, he gets angry when one of 'his' women doesn't want to cater to his whims.

Sorry Jen, but your H strikes me as one who would be very happy if he could have two or more women cater to his needs. He's more of a harem boy than a martyr boy.

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Harem boy, I like that one, very funny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know he's content to, or perhaps even feels entitled to have several women around him.

I'm content to live my life without him. (I even look forward to finding someone who will treat me better.) I guess he hasn't figured that one out yet. Hopefully he will when he gets served with Dv papers next week. I wonder if I should accompany them with a letter saying "Choose me and complete and open honesty with me, or THEM."

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder if I should accompany them with a letter saying "Choose me and complete and open honesty with me, or THEM."

Jen</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that would be such a great idea because he might view it as a manipulative move on your part, and he might respond to you with a hurtful comment.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't really serious. Doing that is something the old Jen would've done, the Jen that did things without thinking first, based on emotion.

Jen

Wow! This thread moves fast, Jen.

I was just going to say what Coffeeman said, and then I see he already said it.

You've already told him these words---simply serve the papers. It would be viewed as manipulative, if you sent the letter. Besides, to me it continues the 'game playing' stuff, as I see it.

I'm glad to hear you sounding strong! It's great too that you're looking forward to being with someone who treats you as you should be treated.

Take care,
H_P

This may be a blunt response but you know I care about you and it is for your well being that I am saying all this.

Yesterday, after a great weekend, and feeling in an upbeat and in control of my emotions mood, I went over to my H's house.

You were in a good mood- until you started dealing with your husband.

But by the time I left, I was just dumbfounded by how little he cared about how upset I was.

Why were you dumbfounded? He has proven he doesn't care about your feelings for a while.

"See, in our last conversation that's the independant woman attitude I can't stand."

Bingo. You can't be manipulated or controlled and he doesn't like that you are your own person with your own thoughts and feelings.

Must be one horny boy I tell you. That came across as desperate to me, or like he actually maybe cared

Neither horny nor caring- manipulative, needy and controlling is more like it. Oh and selfish

we get into bed and he eventually works up to trying to touch me sexually and I stopped him.

Don't get into bed with him again. Yes he is your husband and this may sound crazy. Unless you are willing to have sex with him do not get in bed with him. As someone who has been sexually assaulted (no not by my ex-WH but someone else) I know that anger and control and needing to be powerful= dangerous dangerous dangerous. I am not saying he would do anything...but I am not saying he wouldn't. Not in the state of mind he is in.

Then he got very mad, asked again if we could just go back to what we were doing and I said no I needed an answer.
Next he repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER more times than you could probably imagine, in a fairly adamant and strong if not angry tone, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU JUST DID, NONE."

Yes you do know what you just did. You just confirmed that he is a sick man who is probably having an affair and probably has been for a long time. You just busted him and he didn't like it.

I was so tempted to phone his girlfriends and ask them questions, but didn't, I knew better. What difference would it make what the answers were, right?

Right because I think you know the answers.

I just didn't think I'd have to do it so soon. Now I'm considering filing before June 3rd so I beat him to it.

So soon? Sounds past due to me.

All in all, it's like he either a) wants to have everything his way, with me in continual apologetic grovelling mode, undeserving of any more than the sexual scraps he gives me, while he also gets to spend his social time with his brothers and girlfriends, but not me, OR b) he is just trying to get the last of his free sex in with me before he files anyway.


Could be either? Which one is the healthy way? (trick question - neither is!!)

So, on to my question: what the heck is going on in my H's head in any of your experienced opinions?

By the grace of God, I hope not many people know what is in his mind- because it is a sick one at this point.

And TMCM is right on. So is Orchid, but I dont know if your H will see the error of his ways anytime soon.

Sorry if that was a big 2x4 at you!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and DO NOT send a letter- serving the papers says it all. The less said now, the better.

Hi Jen

I beleive a VERY good book on co-dependency is this one

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...236968?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Get a copy if u can might help u

TaKe care

Be all about action and NOT about words.

Don't discuss or explain. Do what you are going to do.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Also, LOVE IS A CHOICE is a GREAT book about CODEPENDENCY. However, CODEPENDENT NO MORE is a great start. I have both of them and I definitely have the characteristics in response to my WS' affair.

Jen, can I be honest? Your husband scares me.

No, scares is perhaps not the right word, even though he does sound manipulative enough to be dangerous. Maybe saying he sickens me comes closer to the truth.

I know this sounds harsh, but this is my read on the situation from what you describe. He doesn't love you, Jen. He doesn't even like you. But he does enjoy using you, and he'll continue to do it as long as you let him.

He wants you as a sex toy. Period. I see no concern for Jen the person. I can't see how he gives a damn about you, as long as you're there to satisfy his, um, urges.

That whole bit about the "independent woman I don't like" creeps me out to no end. Listen to me: He does not want you to be strong. He does not want you to be whole. He wants you to be broken so he can more easily control you. I know, I've been there.

It's not just manipulative, Jen. It's abusive.

When you come down to it, he's all about control, isn't he? I've known the type.

And don't believe for a moment that you'll be living life alone. What a load of crap. I bet right now you're much lonlier than you would ever be if you left him.

He's not concerned about you. The question is, are you? It sounds like you've been doing real work. Yes, setting boundaries. There are a lot of boundaries to be set here.

You know what I would dearly love? If you show him just how independent a woman you really are. The next time he calls you for a booty call, show up on his doorstep with divorce papers instead.

So deserve so much more than this.

Thanks for your post wiegee. I've been trying to wake up to the fact that I'm just his sex toy for months now. I'm sure people recall me using that phrase over and over in my posts. But I kept being one, sadly. In my blind desire to save my M, and accordingly not give up on what my original vision of my life was (which included being happily married, NOT divorced), I continued to allow him to manipulate me (or enabled him as some have said). I also have realized he is all about control, and emotional manipulation. I've started to recognize when he's attempting to make me feel guilty for his own advantage, etc.

It's funny actually, he's even said several times to me, "You want all the control!" As if control should be involved at all. I told him that I don't want all the control, neither of us should "have all the control", because a healthy relationship isn't about control. I doubt he really heard me or got my point though.

It's so odd, I feel so sure about what I want now. I want to be treated well, and so I don't want to be with him. I want a divorce from him. I no longer want to work to save this M. I just wish my exit hadn't started with an A. I wish I'd just woken up and gone my own way. Now there's always going to be an element of control over me on his part. "Do what I say, give me what I ask for, or I'll tell everyone we work with why we divorced, aka I'll tell everyone that you slept with my BF." But quite frankly, I refuse to live my life in fear of that. If he chooses to open up his big mouth, then he is making himself look like a whiny, vengeful man too hopefully. I hope people will be able to look beyond the mistakes I made in my personal life and accept me as Jen the hard-working and sincere individual I am. The scary and awkward thing is if my H opens his mouth, I'm really in for it. I still work with OM. Neither OM or I found new jobs for next year. So I'll always be looking over my shoulder, for at least 1 more year.

I would show up on his doorstep with Dv papers but from what I understand, it's better to have them served by a 3rd party so that the other spouse can't lie and claim they never got the papers, or otherwise slow down the process.

Sigh, I wish I had found this level of awareness and consciousness months ago. I guess another big thing that delayed it was all of my guilt over cheating on my H. Not only do I have a conscience, not only have I seen the pain of all the BS here first hand, but I also am married to a man who is oh so skilled at emotionally manipulating me and making me feel guilty.

Sorry to write so much, all worthwhile realizations I figure.

Jen

And don't believe for a moment that you'll be living life alone. What a load of crap. I bet right now you're much lonlier than you would ever be if you left him.

Bingo. I sure have learned that in my experience. It is much worse to watch the man you love either being a freak or going to OW and leave you sitting there. When you walk away yourself, it feels like a breath of fresh air.

I just wish my exit hadn't started with an A. I wish I'd just woken up and gone my own way. Now there's always going to be an element of control over me on his part.

No there isn't ALWAYS going to be that element of control. If you forgive yourself and change your life and QUIT letting him have the control, he won't have it. If you have to get a diffferent job or if your coworkers who you thought were your friends turn against you, does it really matter that much??? Or does your emotional sanity and well-being matter more? Don't let him make you a prisoner of your past.....He can only do what you give him the power to do- the less it bothers you- well then the less effect it has....