Jen-

I'm only posting to tell you that I see how strong you are becoming. Things are going to be great for you...just trust in what you've learned.

You have come SO far already...Whatever you decide, I'm behind you baby!

In some ways, you are mourning a dead man.

Jen-

I have the co-dependacny no more books and two others. I would be willing to send them to you if you want them. They helped me learn to live. All were given to me by other people that cared and I simply want to pass on the "gift" to someone else.

Kily_mb@hotmail.com

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

(wiegee here using my secondary account because I can't find the password for the original one)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>I've been trying to wake up to the fact that I'm just his sex toy for months now.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's so hard to do, isn't it? I'm amazingly talented at denying things myself. I can continue to ignore things until they whap me in the face but hard. And then it hurts, really hurts.

It sounds like you're learning to see things as they *are*, not how you *want* them to be. It isn't an easy thing to do, and it isn't pretty, but it's a lesson that will serve you -- and me -- well throughout our lifetimes.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now there's always going to be an element of control over me on his part. "Do what I say, give me what I ask for, or I'll tell everyone we work with why we divorced, aka I'll tell everyone that you slept with my BF."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, that's not right. There's only control if you let him have control. Is he really holding that over your head? Then you know what you do? Take the initiative. Preemptively tell the people he was threatening to tell, and tell them *why* you are telling them. Yes, you'll have to eat crow if you do that, but you've also disarmed him.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The scary and awkward thing is if my H opens his mouth, I'm really in for it. I still work with OM. Neither OM or I found new jobs for next year. So I'll always be looking over my shoulder, for at least 1 more year.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think you're "really in for it" if that happens. Is it a concern of losing a job? Then yes, it's a valid worry. Is it a fear of losing face? It might not be as big of a deal as you think it is. If these people know about you and care about you at all, then they may have an inkling already about what you've been going through.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I would show up on his doorstep with Dv papers but from what I understand, it's better to have them served by a 3rd party so that the other spouse can't lie and claim they never got the papers, or otherwise slow down the process.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh well, it's a nice dream anyways :-)

Jen, you underestimate yourself. You're bigger than all this mess, and you WILL get through it. The tough lessons you're learning now will last you a lifetime.

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: wiegee2 ]</small>

Jen,

You have gotten some very good responses and I hope you get what you need from them. You asked for opinions so I thought I would offer mine.

I read your post and had just one thought: "Children"
They are behaving like teenage children. She wants to break up but doesn't want to hurt him. He is playing the childish games that teenage boys often do while thinking that sex is the ONLY thing in the world.

My advice is to stop and look at yourself. You are a woman, not a child. You know what you want in life and he is not it. You have no children, the marriage is a big mess, and he shows no evidence of growing up yet. What would a woman do? Not a teenage girl, a woman. I think you will know the answer.

I can tell you that most of us guys are NOT like your H. Ok, well we do like sex <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but the games the inability to handle a tough situation, all speak to a level of immaturity that may not leave. Let him have his girl friends. You have learned a valuable and painful lesson from your mistakes. Use it wisely on someone that holds value to you, and values you.

That is my take on your H's behavior and what you should do about it.

God Bless,

JL

I was in a right hurry the other day when I posted my reply to you... but I will attempt to try again with what I was trying to say but didnt get it all out.

And yeah its against everything everyone has replied here.

I replied because your husbands behaviour near mirrors my husbands behaviour in our early seperation.

One of the main reasons I kicked him out .. his family and his actions at the time were..well ..not loyal to myself and our children.
I was a *****..blah blah blah according to the most dysfuctional family residing on planet earth.

He, when he left was torn....you see he loved me and he attempted to show me that in sex... but loyalties to his family pulled him in the other direction. I was good enough for a shag and whatevers behind closed doors in the first few months... but not good enough for it to be known in public.. we were supposed to be trying to get our marriage back on track.

Jen as the FWS in your relationship.. is it possible your husband has dug himself a hole, by playing on his BS profile within his whole social unit.. and now finds himself in a position where...he doesnt quite know how to get out? Hesne the yoyo to you?

In this case you'd be the ***** for the betrayal....and his whole social cirlce knows that... and he would find it a tug of war within himself.. where his loyalities lie?and becasue he doesnt have the skills to deal with them, hes trying to make do.

I know my post will probably sound a little daft...but as JL said.... his inabilty to handle a tough situation and his immaturity speaks volumes.

Its just a thought I am throwing out based on my own experience.

10 yrs ago I didnt know what plan B was.. but I did it.. when my eldest brother pulled me into line... with ... "what the hell are you doing Max!!!"

Respect yourself Jen and treat yourself fairly. You have to be number one. Lord knows I know you love your husband...but it really is time for some tough love.

Dino.

adgirl, thanks for pointing out that he only will ever have any control over me if I let him. It's true enough.

Kily - thanks for the encouragement and book titles. I'll email you soon about the books (such a generous offer!).

TMCM - a bit too blunt. He isn't dead, he's just a mess who needs counselling. Although I know he said several times this all may have been easier if one of us had just died.

wiegee: "It sounds like you're learning to see things as they *are*, not how you *want* them to be. It isn't an easy thing to do, and it isn't pretty, but it's a lesson that will serve you -- and me -- well throughout our lifetimes." Oh yes indeed, one of the biggest and hardest lessons I've had to learn.

As for this suggestion: "Preemptively tell the people he was threatening to tell, and tell them *why* you are telling them. Yes, you'll have to eat crow if you do that, but you've also disarmed him." I don't know that I care to do that. At least if I don't tell them, there's still a good chance he won't tell them, and I get to keep some privacy.

And in regards to: "Why do you think you're "really in for it" if that happens. Is it a concern of losing a job? Then yes, it's a valid worry. Is it a fear of losing face? It might not be as big of a deal as you think it is." I work with OM. If my H REALLY opens his mouth, a teaching staff of 40+ people will know I slept with OM. He is married still. It's mostly a matter of losing face.

JL: I guess you're right, to an extent, I don't (didn't?)want to hurt my H. And I've said to myself SO many times in the past couple of days, "He can have his @#%! girlfriends. Good luck to them!"

Dinotopia wrote: In this case you'd be the ***** for the betrayal....and his whole social cirlce knows that... and he would find it a tug of war within himself.. where his loyalities lie?and becasue he doesnt have the skills to deal with them, hes trying to make do.
You are not daft at all. I have thought about that possibility before. The funny thing is, after his father passed away, it's become very clear that his family is just fine with me, and fine with him getting back together with me, if he ever woke up and chose to do so.

His social circle?? Ha ha ha ha, you mean his two girlfriends. He only spends time socially with his brothers and those two. There are a couple of other coworkers he's told too. But quite a few of his "former" friends (many of whom are still my current friends) know, and I think he's a little too worried that other people will think of him as the fool that took back a cheating whore. He tried to tell lots of friends, so they'd stop accusing him of cheating on me with one or both of the girlfriends. I told other friends basically to disarm him. No one, not one single person wanted to stop being my friend. That threw him for a loop, and he feels like many of our friends chose me over him (which is crap - he just cut them off, and I didn't).

But I digress, I agree, he's a little too worried what others may think. But that's NOT the main issue here, it's his stupid girlfriends, and he can have them and NOT me.

I may be crazy, but I don't care to plan B, at all. (Anyone who suggests it is wasting their breath on me.) I plan to file for Dv asap. If my H is desperate to have me, he'll tell his "bi@#$es," as he actually calls them, that his wife is more important than them, and he'll make me the priority in his life. Now how much of a longshot is it that he'd ever do that? A HUGE longshot! It's time for an end to the madness I say. I deserve better.

Jen

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Why is this driving me so crazy?

As some of you may recall, I have decided, not sort of decided, not leaning towards, but I HAVE DECIDED I am going to file for divorce, and I don't want to be with my H anymore. I don't love the man he is, I only love who he used to be, or perhaps even who I think he used to be.

But, I find myself downright obsessively wanting and needing to know if my H took b!@#h #1 camping with him last weekend AND this weekend.

I heard he was probably going to go camping this weekend again. Late tonight, I drove by our house to see if the camper was gone, and it was.

What's annoying is if he took the b!@#h with him, they've put her car in the garage, so I can't tell if she's gone with him.

I called her place last weekend and again this weekend (used call block) and she hasn't been home, so it looks like she's gone with him.

As you may recall from the first post to this thread, he FREAKED out when I tried to ask him if he went camping with one or both of those girls. He didn't say no. I know that female friend #2 didn't go last weekend, because I called her and she was home. My SIL told a common friend last week that she thinks my H and the b!@#h are "seeing" each other......

It just seems that he is most likely openly being with this other woman, and here we are still married. (IMHO, separated does not equal divorced. I refuse to date other people while married. Heck, I have kept my wedding ring on the whole time.) I want to confirm that she's (been) camping with him. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY I NEED TO KNOW SO BADLY!!!

I guess it's because I worry that they've actually been an item for months, but he's still been coming to me for sex, and I've been dumb enough to have sex with him on several occasions under the pretense that I thought maybe we'd still work things out.

I know the graceful thing to do would be to just forget about it and file for divorce, knowing I don't want him anyway. ("The best revenge is living well" and all that.)

I know I could hire a PI for big bucks to satisfy my curiosity if I must....

I could also just phone my SIL or female friend #2 or maybe even my MIL and see if they'll tell me the truth, but that would likely instantly get back to my H and I could have an ENRAGED man on my doorstep if I did that....

Why do you folks think I'm so desperate to confirm my suspicions?? Am I looney toons here?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

PS: Back in August, he told me that b!@#h #1 would "probably make a better wife than me someday". I found that quote in my journal today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Originally posted by Jen Brown:
Why is this driving me so crazy?

As some of you may recall, I have decided, not sort of decided, not leaning towards, but I HAVE DECIDED I am going to file for divorce, and I don't want to be with my H anymore. I don't love the man he is, I only love who he used to be, or perhaps even who I think he used to be.

Orchid: I remember you don't want to do plan B. So I will try hard not to go there, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Also, this posts shows you are setting your decision a bit more firmly ("I HAVE DECIDED"). This is a hard decision to make Jen so if you still find yourself trying to rethink your 'decision', don't beat yourself up. Just know it can happen. You love of the 'right' man vs the way he is now is a correct assessment. Remember that point. It will be helpful to recall during those times you will be rethinking your decision.

Jen, what your H is doing is a bit extreme but quite in line with WS patterns.

What I believe an important piece of info for the BS to realize is that when our mind and heart are NOT working together that is when we create our own frustration. This is in addition to the frustration given to us by others (including our spouses). When I realized that I had to wait until my mind and heart were in sync, then even though I knew and could see what I needed to do, I had a bit more patience. I learned to relax a bit in my obessions and was able to get some rest. The anxiety attacks and anxious moments which filled most of my days, didn't go away but became more manageable. I then was able to gain the strength to even tell the WS to hurry up and get the D papers moving. I babbled back in style. I took control of that 'A' train and took the WS and OW for a wild ride. But that ride still was hard for me but this time, I was in more control.

U know what? It felt good. I started to feel progress. I was learning to let go and it took the weight (that I didn't know I was carrying) off my shoulder.

See everyone else had been telling me to do that.... I knew I should that, but I just couldn't. Even my son told me to go find him another dad. Why could they see and say it easier than I? Because their mind and heart were in sync and mine wasn't.

But, I find myself downright obsessively wanting and needing to know if my H took b!@#h #1 camping with him last weekend AND this weekend. .... Late tonight, I drove by our house to see if the camper was gone, and it was.

What's annoying is if he took the b!@#h with him, they've put her car in the garage, so I can't tell if she's gone with him.

I called her place last weekend and again this weekend (used call block) and she hasn't been home, so it looks like she's gone with him.

As you may recall from the first post to this thread, he FREAKED out when I tried to ask him if he went camping with one or both of those girls. He didn't say no. I know that female friend #2 didn't go last weekend, because I called her and she was home. My SIL told a common friend last week that she thinks my H and the b!@#h are "seeing" each other......

Orchid: I can certainly understand your obssession. You know the consequences. It may be time let this part go. It will be hard but know that when you 'really' need to know, it will come. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart.

It just seems that he is most likely openly being with this other woman, and here we are still married. (IMHO, separated does not equal divorced. I refuse to date other people while married. Heck, I have kept my wedding ring on the whole time.) I want to confirm that she's (been) camping with him. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY I NEED TO KNOW SO BADLY!!!

Orchid: Maybe he is. Your standards are higher than his. Don't expect his to be where you are or you will be disappointed. You are correct but remember you can't control him.

Why do you need to know? Because you don't have closure yet. I used to tell my WS, "just tell me you don't love me, I need to know, repeat it over and over again because I need to be reassured that you mean it." Hm.... now he had a hard time giving me that reassurance.

See WS are great at 'drive by' verbal abuse. Ask them to defend and reinforce their stance and most lose steam. Convince the BS beyond a shadow of a doubt and the A gets weak. At least that is my working theory.

I guess it's because I worry that they've actually been an item for months, but he's still been coming to me for sex, and I've been dumb enough to have sex with him on several occasions under the pretense that I thought maybe we'd still work things out.

Orchid: You feel used and once again abused. Very normal reaction. Remember you are not dealing with a person with a normal reaction but you are treating him as if he is. Very frustration. How much longer do you think you can do that?

I know the graceful thing to do would be to just forget about it and file for divorce, knowing I don't want him anyway. ("The best revenge is living well" and all that.)

Orchid: Grace does not rank #1 when you are fighting for your life or in this case the life of your M. So I understand if you can't be graceful. But what can you be? Hm...... that's one to ponder a bit.

I know I could hire a PI for big bucks to satisfy my curiosity if I must....

I could also just phone my SIL or female friend #2 or maybe even my MIL and see if they'll tell me the truth, but that would likely instantly get back to my H and I could have an ENRAGED man on my doorstep if I did that....

Orchid: Yes, you certainly could do this and more. Now what will be the benefit. What will that knowledge do for you more than what you already know and can do? This is hard for many BS' Jen. I know, it was for me. I think Bramble Rose and a few others used to pound this into my head for several months. I am stubborn and my skull is quite thick but it eventaully sunk in. Why? Because they were right and I knew it. Just had to sync up that mind and heart.

Why do you folks think I'm so desperate to confirm my suspicions?? Am I looney toons here?

Orchid: Because you now need closure. You are afraid you are at the end of your M and this scares you.

No you are not 'looney tunes', you are quite sane and despite all you have had to deal with, you are doing well.

Now a 'short' comment about his sexual comments to you. I recommend a more blunt response. When he calls to ask for s3x, tell him why isn't he having this need met by those he associates with? Those he is sharing his married life with? Does he expect you to call them and ask them why they aren't doing their job? Why aren't they not meeting his needs? The direction is to put this need back on him.

In my case, the OW was not meeting the ENs of the WS. I pushed those needs on the OW. She promised him $$, travel, better health, higher education, a good job and of course s3x. Well when I saw him he had none of those benefits. Geeze, if I worked for a company that promised good medical/dental and other benefits and they didn't do it, I'd quit!!! Ok, dumb comparison but when I told the WS that I was 'very disappointed' that the OW was NOT keeping her 'promises', that if I had to suffer and lose my marriage, at least she shouldn't be adding to my problems by sending home a sick, poor, unemployed and uns3xed WS. When I told him that, he had to now convince me or admit that the OW was NOT what he or she had cracked her up to be. Hm..... now that was sweet! That strengthened me and no matter HOW the WS repeated what I said about the OW, it caused her to LB him...... Guaranteed.

Back in August, he told me that b!@#h #1 would "probably make a better wife than me someday". I found that quote in my journal today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Orchid: Fog babble...... gotta wonder if he still feels the same way. See my comment right above this one and play it back to him now.

take care,
L.

<small>[ May 25, 2003, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Jen, I've said it before: Al-Anon.

I'd also recommend that instead of Co-dependency No More - which IS an exchellent book, and appropriate for you, don't get me wrong - The Language of Letting Go (also by Melody Beattie) is probably far better for YOU at the moment.

Your husband is a WS and a BS. So are you. I think it's pointless to get caught up in the diagnosis of either of you - because its simply an attempt to gain control of a situation that you have no control over.

I thought your opening in your first message on this thread was interesting. You didn't want MB adivce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really want standard MB advice (eg. do more plan A! Go to plan B! Go to plan Dv!). I've been avoiding posting lately because that's all I ever seem to hear. Today I just really wonder what you folks might think of this recent behaviour on the part of my H.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's all you hear because it is what you should be listening to. But you see, you've not been satisfied with the results - ie hasn't resulted in the outcome you want (ie getting your situation under control and resulting in your husband doing what you want him to do) so now that advice isn't wanted. It's still the right advice Jen. Please read on...

I'm going to repeat part of my "Detachment with Love" post here because I think it is incredibly appropriate here. I've left in the parts relevant to alcoholism though, because both infidelity and alcoholism are rampant in your marriage.

The Three C's

Detaching with love is easier when we remember the three C's - we did not cause the infidelity/alcoholism in another, we cannot control the infidelity/alcoholism or our spouse, we cannot cure infidelity/alcoholism or our spouse.

Cause - Infidelity/Alcoholism is a disease. Just as we cannot cause someone to develop diabetes, cancer, or any other disease, we do not have the power to cause anyone else to become addicted. Every addicted person blames others for their addiction and their use - this is their denial and their disease. Accepting that blame becomes our prison.

Control - Despite our best intentions and efforts, controlling other people does not work. Relationships cannot grow and intimacy cannot develop if one person is controlling the other. We only have control over ourselves and how we respond to situations, other people and their behavior. Trying to control other peoples behavior may temporarily make us feel better and give us an illusion of being in control - but in the long run, it does not work.

Cure - Alcoholism is a disease that cannot be cured. It can be arrested but never cured. Alcoholism is a disease that is fatal if not arrested. It never gets better without help, it always gets worse. This is the progression of the disease. Only the wayward spouse/alcoholic can seek help for their disease. No matter what we do, the treatment for the disease is not ours to hand out.

Words that stand in the way of detaching...

Why...?
What if...?
Yes, but...
I can't...
I'll try...

Why...?
The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.

What if...?
What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.

Yes, but...
When we "yes but…" we are not listening to what others have to say. We are being self centered and self absorbed, and in essence saying we are so unique that what has worked for countless others will not work in our situation. Each time we "yes but" we are cooking up excuses inside our heads and our minds are closed.

I can't...
This is our biggest lie to ourselves. The truth is not that we can't, but that we won't. It is where we let fear have control over our lives.

I'll try...
The saying, "to try is to lie" refers to how easily we fall into making excuses. If we say, "I'll try" we lack commitment. "I'll try" allows us to bide our time while looking for an excuse not to do whatever we have said we'll try.

H.O.W.
HOW do we detach?

H - Honesty with ourselves and others

O - Openness to hearing new ideas and breaking old ways of thinking and behaving

W - Willingness to take risks and try something different

***************************

There's alot of "Why", "What if" and especially alot of "Yes but" in your posts Jen. And thats why you are still where you are at. I only float in an out of MB these days, mostly because I am incredibly busy with my medical problems, a job, three kids, 3 dogs and a husband. But it seems like every time I pop in and read your threads...its the same stuff over and over again.

Oh, and also, I want to make the point that anything you choose to do (ie plan B, divorce, etc) that results in pain for your husband is NOT your responsilbity. Your choices to show yourself respect and self-love by removing his power and control over your life are the direct result and consequences of HIS OWN CHOICES.

You are NOT hurting him...he is hurting himself.

You constantly beat yourself up and take responsiblity for all of his crappy behavior. You are simply NOT that powerful Jen. I'll leave you with the serenity prayer:

God...grant me the Serenity to Accept the things I can not change, the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.

(((hugs)))

Thanks for your replies Orchid and Bramblerose.

The first and most obvious thing that hits me after reading your posts is that the real reason I am obsessing over whether he's "with her" or not is I want to have the moral upper hand, I want to have power over him so to speak. It's the same old bad habit.

We've been competitive since before we were married. Back in university, it was a BIG deal to beat each other if we were in the same courses. When we'd go fishing together, it was all about the fact that one or the other of us caught more or bigger fish. We thought it was all in good fun. Now it's who's the morally bigger person? I can see the madness.

What was I thinking even marrying him? I read in "O" magazine that most women don't marry the man they choose because they love him the way he is, they marry him for the potential they envision him to have....an interesting thought.

Orchid, your point about waiting for my heart and mind to be in sync is very profound. My head knows what's best for me, my heart is stuck in its old patterns. I somehow need to quiet it down it seems. Like you it seems like everyone around me has been able to see it (the fact that my H isn't coming back to me, that I'm better off without him) for a long time.

I consciously know I can't control him. I don't care to control him. He can do whatever he pleases at this point. He makes his own choices that he has to live with, period.

Aha, so it's about closure. I need some! Simple but wise. But I guess I need to find that for myself, and not rely on him or his actions for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When he calls to ask for s3x, tell him why isn't he having this need met by those he associates with? Those he is sharing his married life with? Does he expect you to call them and ask them why they aren't doing their job? Why aren't they not meeting his needs? The direction is to put this need back on him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, Orchid, you are the reverse babble queen. I like that, and I'll use it IF I have to. I don't really expect to hear any more of that out of him, but then again every time he's told me he'd never talk to be again before, he has, so it may come in very handy.

Thanks for the book title Bramblerose. I'll have to dig that one up. I've read some bits of info on codependancy before and it did seem to tie in somewhat to our behaviour. I do hear everyone when they continue to tell me I'm stuck in the same old pattern still. I think I'm going to get out of it this time. I pray that I can.

Lord, please give me a clear mind and a calm heart, and grant me the Serenity to Accept the things I can not change, the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference. Amen.

I am so thankful for MB, and having other people's perspectives to give me clarity on my own!

Jen

Jen,

U R one great lady! Yes U R. I do not exaggerate. In my books, being able to see where you are, admit it and put a plan in action takes you to tackling over 60% of the problem. See IMHO, you have more than 1/2 way towards your resolution. Now anything that comes up to try and hinder your personal recovery will have to prove their worth 100%. You have be to 'totally' convinced he is worth taking back. If you have doubts..... pay attention to them.

Jen, I have watched your posts for a long time. I see where you make progress and then slip back. Don't beat yourself up over that. Most of us here have gone through it. Trust me.... I know I have and I still have the drive to survive! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So my dear, continue to progress. I believe I made very similar statements as I did last night to you before but they did not have the impact as they do now. Why? Because you were not ready in your healing to hear them ...... at that time. But you may be getting there now. That is progress, that is recovery..... that is also what a loving parent or friend does for someone they care and respect.

MB cyber hug, coming your way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Jen,

Just to add a 'short' note (think I can do that? LOL!!). I just skimmed through BR's post to you. WOW, isn't she awesome!!! Yes she is. That is how she used to write to me. She has even gotten better over the years.

Hey BR, hope you are feeling better.... stroke or no stroke you are still one sharp whip with that keyboard - luv ya!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pay attention to her and others..... even though you didn't want to hear MB stuff..... you are, just in a different way. So maybe we need to work on our presenation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

Thanks again for the encouragement Orchid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have be to 'totally' convinced he is worth taking back. If you have doubts..... pay attention to them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have SO many doubts, and believe me, I am paying attention to them. In order for me to be totally convinced he is worth taking back, he has A LOT to do, but he's still convinced I'm the one with a lot to do, and that he's entitled to his female friends and his privacy. Well he can have them and his privacy and his illusion that he is all right the way he is. I am moving on unless he has some HUGE and OBVIOUS epiphany.

Funny, I'm so much into this control thing. I catch myself hoping to maybe somehow have a positive effect on some things here and there in my life, or even in the lives of people I know, and then usually after a day or so I snap out of it and realize I shouldn't waste my time worrying about things I have no control over. Now if only I could shorten the time of awareness to something like a few minutes instead of a whole day or more!

(I realized this b/c a friend of a friend has left his pregnant wife to be with his best friend's wife, who has a small child and has asked for a Dv but hasn't left yet. I wish I could get them to read MB and wake up and realize that love isn't just a romantic feeling, it's a choice, and how they should think of the kids first and themselves second, etc. I stewed about this for the past two days, even ranted at my friend about it, like she should go tell them what I think (ha ha ha). Now I've realized I have NO CONTROL over them. They are just going to make their own mistakes, end of story. So why worry about them?!)

So I am realizing I am a bit of a control freak, even though I'd rather not admit it. "Hi, my name's Jen and I'm a control freak."

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen...you aren't a freak, you are a perfectly normal wife of an alcoholic.

Living in close proximity with the chaos that comes with alcoholism makes us into control freaks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Now you know better, now you can do better.

Thanks for pointing out that you don't think I'm a freak. I appreciate it!

I saw a third lawyer today and learned lots more. She recommended I try to sit down with my H and finalize what we both want in a direct, amicable fashion, and then go from there towards filing for Dv, rather than just surprising him with papers.

Now I have to find a way to persuade him to meet with me sooner rather than later. That will likely be the challenging part. I also have to find a way to break it to him that I want to use a lawyer, not just the cheapo "Canadian Divorce Kit" from the bookstore. He'll likely have a fit, and accuse me of trying to have all the control. Not true, I just want to be sure we divide things equitably and do things right the first time, to protect both our interests.

If you want to help me choose a lawyer, here's my thread over on D/D:
Jen's other thread

Jen

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen, go with the lawyer that you feel comfortable with. You want one that will really help when things (notice I said when,not if) get ugly.

Mind if I wave at Orchid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I missed your post earlier, i just kinda ran by this thread! I remember our humble beginnings over on the Divorcing board! I don't think I was really that wise...I was just trying to sort out my life like everyone else, and learned alot of lessons on the way.

I like to think I can share some of what I learned with blood sweat and tears.

Anyway, nope, my stroke isn't slowing me down - its healing slowly and I had heart surgery to fix what was wrong, and I'm off and running <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. Great book, pretty quick read.

1. Be impeccable with your word
2. Don't take anything personally
3. Don't make assumptions
4. Always do your best

Sounds simplistic but it's a fantastic way to learn to accept and let go. You have a choice. You can sit around and wonder what he's thinking. You can assume that he's taken her, even though there isn't true blatent proof. And you can take all his bullcrud personally. Or...you can focus on you and let him fight his own demons. Because as long as you're there punishing yourself with sleeplessness and worry...he wins. That's exactly what he wants.

So what do you want and how are you going to get there. What IS your plan?