Pep:

That's cool! At least the 2nd paragraph is. That dream sounds like the kind of things I dreamt for the first several months after D-day. Ain't no fun, huh?

The worst times I've had since 17 months ago have been when I've tried 2 force something - anything - 2 happen. I've been told 2 let go many times in the past year, but I don't think I truly "got" the need 2 do so until these past few weeks. It was a friend on iloveulove.com that jarred me awake 2 what I had been doing with what I thought was a harsh post 2 me (so, SS, stop worrying!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I couldn't possibly have been grateful for that for several days, or a week or more, but I sure am now.

I guess it's kind of like doing plan A/B within MB 2 help "encourage" the WS 2 do some of their own waking up. They resist like crazy for a time, and will be very angry whenever told they're going down the wrong road, but if they DO wake up and look back on the experience, they're usually grateful.

Patience IS the key. Not just for 2day, but for always. Focusing on the worry adversely affects everyone we come in contact with. Focusing on finding "inner peace" positively impacts those around us, but does so as a fringe-benefit (like the spores in Star Trek!). The more we try 2 change our "life si2ation" by trying 2 make those we associate with change, the more we prolong the si2ation. The more we focus on changing our outlook, the more rapidly, surprisingly, and positively those around us respond 2 our own changed perspective.

Like SC always said 2 me: "stop trying 2 produce outcomes." It's hard 2 let go of the desire 2 control outcomes we think might be favorable 2 ourselves (which we rationalize as "good for everybody"), but letting go of that desire, or "need" is the very thing that brings about resolutions.

Have I got resolution 2 my life si2ation? No. Are "we" in "recovery?" Heck if I know. Do I care? Yes, a little, but it isn't going 2 make or break my perception of progress if, by somebody's canned definition, we're not.

"Peace, and tranquility 2 all"
"Who is this Landru, anyway?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

Pepper:

I forgot 2 add something that you should hear.

When I visited you and Mr Pepper, do you remember that I told you I answered your phone call with my W in the room? And she later made a disdainful remark about the visit - the fact that you 2 are just MBers, not professional therapists? - because at least SHE was seeing her IC that day?

Well, last weekend or whenever it was (funny how "time" doesn't seem 2 register that much with me now - or that's my excuse for being scatter-brained!), when we were talking about what she's reading in PM and she said she really likes the book. She asked me how I found it. And so I told her that you recommended it 2 me. This time, she said "Oh, those people you met from MB?" in a very favorable tone.

It felt neat. I thought I'd share.
-2long

I don't mean 2 pi$$ in my own cheerios with this post, but I got 2 thinking last night (and don't say "with what??" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Things have gotten a bit colder here the past few days, and I'm not quite sure why. I guess it 2k me until last night 2 fully realize it was even happening.

What happened 2 trigger it was that I had gone 2 the tool store and bought a stand for a milling machine (800 pounds, so it can't just be mounted on an old nightstand!) that I bought about 5 months ago but haven't used yet. My initial plan was 2 build one out of 4x4s, but my W suggested that I buy one instead, because building one would be such a waste of time. So, a couple months ago, I ordered one from an online source. Then, the place I bought the machine from had an ad for the same stand for about half the price of the one I'd ordered. I cancelled that order and ordered the less expensive one. It 2k them about a week 2 tell me it was back ordered, then another 3 2 tell me it had been discontinued. Groan. Last weekend, I saw one on display at the store, and picked one up on my way home last night. I had a 2ple of hours, so I rearranged my garage and set up the machine.

When my W got home, I told her about it, and she said "I could care less." Not that she was being mean, because she's said this before about other things. It *means* "I could care less," or "I have my own worries and I don't care what other peoples' are". I really think that's it. In the end, she did come look at it, thought it was cool, and went upstairs.

This is certainly not a big deal. I elaborate on it because I'm so bad at conveying what she "does" and how I feel about it, that the best way 2 do so is 2 tell you about a specific instance. This instance is telling because we've been talking about it for so long. She urged me 2 buy one rather than make one all this time, so it was odd that she seemed not 2 care at all when I did what she suggested (and made it clear that I appreciated her suggestion).

It also occurred 2 me last night that she hasn't said ILY in a very long time now... ...and then it occurred 2 me that I haven't said it 2 her either in a while. I have no idea how long. ...and THEN it occurred 2 me that my reaction 2 the lack of ILYs isn't one of anger or even much of frustration, but of indifference.

I'd been thinking about "indifference" lately, but hadn't put my finger on that particular term, in regards 2 our upcoming trip out of state next Thursday. My W has wanted 2 go for a while now, and "expects" me 2 go along and finish the bathroom remodel we sarted last time and work on her site with her. I have a lot 2 do at work still, and will miss a meeting (though I can call in 2 the telecon). My coworker needs 2 prepare for another meeting that I can't go 2 because of this trip, and she's not happy that I won't be around the week before as she gets the materials finalized for that meeting.

But I had promised my W a long time ago that I would go with her, so I'm not going 2 back out of that. But I got 2 thinking: Maybe I "could care less?"

Don't get me wrong (or do?). I feel pretty "healthy" right now, after reading and internalizing a lot of PON. It's helped me interact with my W (and everybody else in my life, for that matter) like I've been poorly able 2 do for years now. But at the same time, this new perspective - with a lot less hurt and reactivity on my part - has got me thinking about just what *do* we have together? And do I want/need that anymore?

I still have the impression that my W is "waiting for our son 2 get out of high school" 2 start her life. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. I don't think she is consciously, just like I don't think she's conscious of the impact her "I could care less" atti2de has on her family. At the same time, I realize that I'm reticent to tell her my view of that atti2de, in fear that she'll respond with "I could care less," because I think she has in the recent past.

And so, here we are. We're going 2 take this a day at a time 2 see if we can restore our marriage. I'm certainly willing 2 keep working toward that goal, but I'm wondering at the same time whether I should. I find myself thinking "I've spent so much time and effort 2 help my W 'out of the fog' so that she can make her own life-decisions intelligently that I completely set aside my own wants and needs."

What do *I* want? An end 2 the past 17 months, and the previous 11 years, for sure. ...and then I realize the past HAS ended. It does every 2nd! But I also want 2 be truly happy, and I'm starting 2 wonder if I can with my W. ...and then I remember that my W isn't responsible for my happiness, nor is she the source of it.

Although these may sound like rollercoaster-dip thoughts, I do need 2 get them down so I can ponder what they can tell me about my own progress, or ability to maintain myself "away from the books."

What do I *really* want? That magical, arbitrary "in recovery" label!

What will I get? Who knows? But that's what "journeys" are for, isn't it?

-ol' 2long.

I should have answered my own question in the past post. The one about her other worries. Because she certainly has a lot on her mind these days. The current report is "done and turned in", though in draft form and STILL without RM's section finalized. The field work for the next report is completed, and she's been directed NOT 2 hire RM for the analysis (but he's said he doesn't have time 2 do the work anyway). And most importantly, she's seriously considering quitting in the very near future, and not even working on the report for the current project at all.

Then, there's the arguments with the contractor, the lawyer, and the fact we're planning 2 file a lawsuit against the insurance company in the near fu2re.

So, she does have a lot on her mind that may make it look like she "could care less" about me and our kids. ...come 2 think of it, so do I!!! So, could I be putting 2 much stock in my own feelings of indifference?

-2long

I wonder if this is part of the joy living in the moment brings ..... less desire to take one's "temperature" constantly.

What is going to bring you joy today 2-L?

(I ask myself that same question also)

Pep

Pepper:

Yeah, I think you're right. I'm so tired of taking my tempera2re that I've thrown away the thermometer. But then there's that great big one in Baker that I'll be driving by next week 2 remind me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2day? I'm going 2 relish completion of tasks, when I can complete them!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I'm back,
but for the life of me, I can't figure out why I didn't stay the rest of the week.

Found some good Mt Bike trails. Took sunrise and sunset pictures from the same place, and some of them even turned out pretty good. Did some bike trails but only short ones. Lost 5 lbs, and ate whatever I wanted.

Realized ( yet again) while thinking about life and marriage on the way home that even when things are good there are days when I wish it was better. Perfection is in the future, but happiness is now, even in imperfection. You still have a chance, and there are many who have passed these boards that would like that.

You can be happy most of the time now - but I think you already know that.

SS

SS:

Welcome back! Sorry you came back early! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

A friend of mine said this about my comments yes2rday about "indifference.":

"Is there a difference between "indifference" and "peace"? If so, what?"

Made me think, she did!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What I had been thinking might be a bad thing, is giving me the oppor2nity 2 view our si2ation more objectively than before. Instead of feeling intense waves of jealousy when my W needs 2 contact RM about his LATE report results, I can watch how it impacts OUR relationship impartially. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want 2 lose our M and family. That would be nutz, really. I'm also pretty sure she'd still like 2 keep her friend, which until recently drove me out of my mind. Now that it doesn't, we may have the chance 2 talk about it calmly, for the first time in 12 years.

So, for me at the moment, the "opposite of love" returns 2 "hate", not "indifference," because it is this indifference that's giving me this objective viewpoint that I wasn't capable of enjoying before now.

-2long