(If you know me and my situation well, try to forget it and imagine you are the BS described below for just this one thread....)

Imagine you are the BS. Your WS ended their A months ago, but you still are not sure you want to "take him/her back", or work to save the M. You have been betrayed, how can you ever trust your spouse again? You look like a fool to your family and friends too for that matter. Your FWS is very apologetic and remorseful for his/her affair. Your FWS tells you over and over again that he/she loves you and want more than anything to remain married to you, to have children with you and grow old with you. But you still struggle with forgiving him/her. You don't feel convinced that he/she won't cheat on you again in the future.

You've been separated for a while, living very separate lives for the most part. You ask your FWS to move out, and to your surprise, he/she does. You take three months and have absolutely no contact with your FWS to see if you miss him/her, and see if you're okay without him/her.

When the three months is up, you reinitiate contact actually. You try spending small quantities of time with your FWS. This goes on for several months. However, whenever pressed by your FWS to make a decision about whether you want to remain married or not, you tell your FWS you need more time to decide. You have too much going on in your life right now to decide (problems with family, work, etc). You're doing what you are comfortable and capable of doing at this point, you do have some minimal contact with your FWS, and that is as much as you can handle right now. He/she should be thankful that you are spending some time together, even if it's not as much as your FWS would like.

One night when you go over to be with your FWS, and you try to get intimate with him/her. You get very mad at your FWS because he/she starts asking you questions and is prying about how you've been spending your private time lately, and with who, and so you storm out of his/her place. How could he/she be so selfish? First he/she had an affair, and now they think they have the right to ask you about who you're spending your time with, and even suggest that perhaps you've been with someone else? You tell your FWS that's it, you aren't going to be talking to him/her again until it's time to talk about filing divorce papers. You leave. You are true to your word. You don't contact him/her for a couple of weeks.

So, the next thing you know, your FWS shows up unexpectedly at your place and wants to divide up your assets so you can go ahead with a divorce, since, as your FWS says (in some sort of annoying "psycho babble" he/she must have gotten from Dr. Phil or Dr. Laura), in your indecision, you have not decided that you want to save or work on this marriage. Your FWS has had enough of your indecision and poor treatment. He/she has been to see a lawyer and lists out precisely what he/she wants in the separation agreement, so he/she can file for divorce and get on with his/her life, since you are NOT treating him/her like you love him/her.

You and your FWS always said you wouldn't resort to lawyers! If anyone was going to file for divorce, you always thought it would be you, but now your FWS is talking about filing for divorce?!? But he/she was always the one who said they'd do anything to save this marriage, throughout your indecision, your FWS always said they wanted to be with you and work to save this marriage.

How would you respond to your FWS when he/she shows up out of the blue like this, with these intentions?

What would be going through your mind?

What would be the first words out of your mouth?

What sorts of questions would you be wanting to ask your FWS?

Would you be able to talk about dividing your financial assets then and there?

If you read this far, thank-you! If you were in this particular BS's shoes, please tell me what your thoughts would most likely be on the above 5 questions.

JB

PS: Sorry about all the "him/her" stuff, it's the English teacher in me!

<small>[ June 10, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen, you're killing me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I can't pretend I don't know your situation and I can't set aside what you've told me of your husband and pretend it's someone else in the picture.

The suspense is too much. What happened in your talk with him?

<small>[ June 01, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

Weigee - he went camping all weekend, so we didn't talk yet. I have to go try to see him tomorrow.

I hope someone on here, maybe some newbies can read this thread with fresh eyes and reply.....perhaps I can then be ready for some possible reactions.

JB

I'll try to answer you

How would you respond to your FWS when he/she shows up out of the blue like this,
What would be going through your mind?

She is probably haveing another A

What would be the first words out of your mouth?

Did you find another one?
What sorts of questions would you be wanting to ask your FWS?

If you had found somebody else.
Why then did you bring this up out of the blue.

Would you be able to talk about dividing your financial assets then and there?

Probably would

I'll bet money he will think you are having another affair. Better be ready to address that one. Only had 2 questions because how you answer those ,in tone as well as words, will lead to the next set of questions.

If he just huffs and does not ask questions you can be sure those are want he wants to ask but does not think he wants to hear the answers to.
JMHO

I agree with Weigee. It is too hard because we know your story. I do think you left out a key element in this story and that your short affair was with your husband's best friend. I truly thinks it made all of the difference. A double betrayal like this destroys all concepts of trust and fidelity. The reaction of your husband staying away from all male friends indicates this. I really wonder how this would have turned out if you had the short affair with someone he did not know? I think in his present emotional state he feels you knew exactly what you were doing and that it would destroy his self-image and trust for anyone else.

I do not know whether this is accurate or not. I find it difficult to believe that he could possibly recovery from this without therapy. It is clear that he has turned into a selfish and angry person. I just think that the two people he thought he could count on the most in his life betrayed him in the worst possible way. He has now turned into somebody you do not even recognize anymore. Clearly it is his attempt to deal with the pain, anger and hurt that is boiling inside of him. I am afraid that without therapy he will continue his downward spirial with his drinking and self-destructive ways. I can only imagine he never saw it coming and is now unable to cope no matter what he says to you. In short I have no idea how he will react.
I wish you luck.

THanks for your reply Hurting12. Whenever I get strong and don't contact my H and start talking about moving on with my life, he asks if there's someone else. If he tries to invite me over to see him or show up here unannounced and I don't want to see him, he asks me if I have my boyfriend over. I've repeatedly told him there is no one else, that I refuse to date while I'm still married, even if he's insisted that I should. I have told him that he is my only boyfriend. My answer would simply be that I'm not seeing anyone at all. I've just come to realize that our M probably isn't salvagable, and that he likely cannot forgive me, so it's time to move on. Sound hollow? (It shouldn't, it's the truth.)

BryanP, thanks for your perspective. I guess the BF part is a big deal. I don't see how he can possibly get out of this downward spiral without counselling either. His mother, who sees a lot more of him than I do, has said pretty much the same thing as you, that she can imagine he'll maintain his negative outlook on life, and "he will continue his downward spirial with his drinking and self-destructive ways" for the rest of his life. I wonder if it's even worth it to mention to him again that he really should seek counselling. I fear it would fall on deaf ears.

JB
JB

<small>[ June 01, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,
I've followed your posts..just never responded. And though this response doesn't exactly follow your questions....well..it is what I perceive.

He has gone from being dreadfully hurt to being dreadfully emotionally abusive. Reminds me of a cat toying with a mouse. Um...how to say this...I don't think this sort of behavior would stop if you were to reconcile..I think it would escalate. Yeah, it's real sad, and yes, the A was the spark. However...this sort of behavior may have been there even before the A and just "dormant"...who knows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while you have a certain amount of responsibility in the break up of your marriage..;you have very little responsibility in how he chosses to cope with it. Your only control is how you conduct yourself.

That said, it doesn't really matter what you both may have said years ago about lawyers and such..what matters is the here and now.

I think protecting yourself as much as possible emotionally, physically and financially are all good ideas. You can only be the victim of so much blood letting..eventually you will dry up.

So, while I have been a BS..I've never been a BS with the type of smoldering and all encompassing vengence your particular BS seems to hold.

Protect yourself,
T

Some of you may be interested to see the replies I got on this same topic over on the D/D board. They actually sounded a lot like my H will probably react.

I still don't know what exactly to say to my H tonight. I don't know whether I should just say "so can we sit down and discuss the final division of assets?" or if I should ask him if what he wants is still a divorce, and then if he says yes, go to that question above. But if he says he's not sure, I don't know what to do!

JB

<small>[ June 02, 2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

Like my friend Twyla, I also have followed your posts and never replied before but I'm going to give this a shot. I agree with Twyla's assessment,,he is VERY very angry and may not be receptive to anything you present, with the drinking only complicating matters further.

And I must preface my opinion with the comment I read your previous Anniversary post. It made me cry. Being a BS, it's very difficult for me to understand the FWS's position but I found that post so VERY sad. I only wish all FWS's were as reflective and remorseful as you seem to be. And I sincerely wish your H was able and willing to give it a chance.

"I don't know whether I should just say "so can we sit down and discuss the final division of assets?" or should I ask him if what he still wants is the divorce"

First, I think I'd explain to him exactly how much I love him,,of my desire to reconcile and work committedly, as a team, on restoring the marriage without ANY outside interference. I would reemphasize my desire to rebuild BEFORE giving him that ultimatum. And basically, that IS what you are doing,,giving him an ultimatum. Granted this is not going to be easy, with his obvious anger and adding the drinking. Please see the thread on Recovery Just learning, I need your help please about giving him a chance to talk and listening to his answers.

I wish you all the good luck in the world and I'll be thinking of you!

<small>[ June 02, 2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Nerlycrzy ]</small>

Hi Jen,

I replied over on D/D.

Nerlycrazy, thanks for the link to JL's thread. I will have to consciously be patient and wait for him to answer my questions. I do have the typical female bad habit of prodding him, rephrasing the question, or asking other related questions as if it would help (when really it most likely annoys him more).

LovingBoundaries, the extent of your desire for revenge scares me, but I thank you for your honesty. I'll try to post more over on D/D.

FOLKS, I am going to leave here at 8pm MB time to go see him. Here's what I've planned to say to him. Any and all gut reations and feedback would be appreciated!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
- I still love you and care about you. I always will.

- I am very sorry for my selfish decisions last spring that hurt you more than I can ever possibly imagine, and that caused us to be apart for so long.

- I still would like to work together to save and repair our marriage if you are willing. I still want to be married to you if you want the same thing.

- I would prefer to rebuild this marriage together rather than go ahead with a divorce.

- I would hate to live our lives separately and run into each other in 10 or 20 or even 30 years and look at each other, fall into each other’s arms, and say gee, we loved each other so much, why did we choose to grow old apart and not together?

HOWEVER,

- I ready and willing to go ahead with a divorce if you still do not want agree wholeheartedly to work together to save our marriage. If after a whole year of separation you still don’t feel a strong desire to be with me again, and treat me like your wife again, then I think it’s time to move on for both of us.

- If that’s the case, then there are some financial details we need to discuss before we go ahead with a divorce.

- PLEASE set your pride and fears aside, and just be completely honest with me about what you want. There’s no reason to hold anything back now, there’s no advantage to it at all.

- What do you want? Do you want to remain married to me? Or do you want to divorce me and move on and live the rest of your life without me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PLEASE IF YOU READ THIS GIVE ME SOME QUICK FEEDBACK.

Jen

Oh well, I'm on my way. Say a prayer for me (and my H) if you can.

Jen

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: LovingBoundaries ]</small>

I know I'm too late and you are already on your way, but I have to tell you,,your plan looks good. Not one thing I can think of that I'd add or take away.

I hope you remembered to ask the question, allowed him time to formulate an answer and listened to his reply, before firing off the next round. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hope all went well. Be sure and update us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen, how did it go. Are you ok? I worry about you sometimes.

Living well is truly the sweetest revenge.

That phrase has kept me out of trouble more times than you know in the past year.

I read from my script, so I wouldn't forget anything. He stuck to his usual "I don't know" and his answer to why was "because I refuse to think" or "I have enough to deal with in my life" (eg. his grieving mom, all the things that go with his father's death, dealing with the insurance companies, cleaning out his dad's workshop and more) to deal with this right now too. He basically refused to answer the question I formulated while I was there, which was, "Have I misunderstood you, or do you want a divorce?"

Funny thing is, he thinks he's been so nice to me most of the time, and that I've treated him like crap. I think I've been so nice to him most of the time and he's treated me like crap. I didn't remark on this though.

He started drinking when I got there.

When he wouldn't respond to my inquiries about our relationship I went on to the financial stuff and of course he was pissed off. In short he told me that yes, our homemade separation was completely valid and legal even if 3 lawyers had told me otherwise (they must want more of my money he said). He refuses to budge from what's written in there. He said if I try to go for any more than that I'll end up with nothing but a lawyer's bill. He'll give my equity money away to charity so fast I can't blink, he'll move all his money out of his bank accounts tomorrow morning at 8 o'clock, etc.

After all of that, we sat and watched tv for a while, with minimal conversation. As I predicted, he eventually started trying to persuade me to go up to the bedroom to have sex. I refused. I let him try to hold me a couple of times, but always refused. I even tried going upstairs and sitting on the bed hoping to get him to talk some more but he refused as soon as he realized I wouldn't undress.

He started playing some music on his computer, and kept telling me to go upstairs and get naked or leave. After a while, I did leave. On the way out I saw one of the neighbours, a nice lady that my H said has been asking about where I am (and that he subsequently told he was separated from me). I told her through tears that I'd been better and kept crying and got in my car and left.

I went to my girlfriend's house to calm down. On the way there, he called me once on my cell phone. I answered, and he said "see that's the attitude I can't stand." While I was at my friend's he called my cell phone 2x from his house. I didn't answer. A third time he called on his cell so I answered to see if he had shown up at my place, told him I wasn't home yet and where I was, and he said SURE I was at her place, so since he wouldn't believe me I put her on to say hi and he hung up.

I just got home, and he called here 12 times, no messages. He called me again just as I started typing this, I answered and he said, "You come over here to financially screw me over, you run out on me, you run to your friend to cry about it, so have a nice f@#$ing life" click. I didn't call him back.

While I was sitting there with him tonight, I felt sorry for him at times, I longed to work things out at times, and at other times I was almost afraid of him too (afraid he really will screw me over financially) - his vengeful side is that strong.

Now I'm left wondering what to do. Do I wait for him to make up his mind? I've been waiting for so long,and his tune hasn't changed. Do I go to my lawyer and just give in to what was in the original agreement and file like that? Do I go to my lawyer and say go after him and let the nastiest possible fight ever begin? He even said you must know how much pride I have and how I'd react to you suggesting the things I suggested tonight (financially), that I'd screw you before you screw me. He is firmly convinced he treated me better than any other man in his shoes would have. He says he has protected my reputation from a lot of people. Etc.

So I don't really feel much further ahead. I don't know what to do.

I heard that at least a couple of his brothers are thinking of going on a big vacation with his mom to a far off sunny place in July, and I worry he'll be going to. He doesn't know I know this.

He left a folded little piece of paper lying out with a summary of all of his assets other than the house, now why would he make such a list if his plans weren't divorce? It was a big number, much more than he owes me for equity.

Right now, I am leaning towards my next step being going back to my lawyer and telling her how it went and asking her what her next step would be. The thought also crossed my mind of going to his mom for advice but that would make him even angrier.

Do I want to be married to him? I did sort of with thoughts of how things once were while I was in the house. Now? No, I don't.

Sigh, sorry for writing another novel,

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh yeah, he also reminded me of the power he has over me, that he could ruin my career at the drop of a hat by telling people precisely who I had slept with and that that was why our marriage dissolved, so I'd better not try to financially screw him over.

He knew I was then thinking about (told me so) how I could turn him in for his sort of illegal car sales, but seems unconcerned. He must have figured out a way to do that all without any real trouble.

And so the nastiness has begun I guess.

Jen

Oh, god, Jen. It was as awful as I feared. It's time for you to stop wondering now and take action to protect yourself.

Jen, maybe I'm way out of line here, but I have a strong fear that this man is capable of committing violence upon you. I hope my fears aren't grounded, but the way he treats you emotionally reminds me of a former boyfriend of mine who went from emotionally to physically abusive. Please, PLEASE be careful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>
He said if I try to go for any more than that I'll end up with nothing but a lawyer's bill. He'll give my equity money away to charity so fast I can't blink, he'll move all his money out of his bank accounts tomorrow morning at 8 o'clock, etc.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there's the threat, I guess.

Take him at his word. Do you have any reason not to? I don't know the law or the practicalities involved, but do whatever you must do NOW to block him from carrying through on those threats.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He started playing some music on his computer, and kept telling me to go upstairs and get naked or leave.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">UUUUGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

I'm sorry. Here's a big disrespectful judgment coming up. What an A-HOLE!

I'm so relieved you're not putting up with that sorry treatment anymore. Just reading about it makes me sick.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I went to my girlfriend's house to calm down. On the way there, he called me once on my cell phone. I answered, and he said "see that's the attitude I can't stand." While I was at my friend's he called my cell phone 2x from his house. I didn't answer. A third time he called on his cell so I answered to see if he had shown up at my place, told him I wasn't home yet and where I was, and he said SURE I was at her place, so since he wouldn't believe me I put her on to say hi and he hung up.

I just got home, and he called here 12 times, no messages. He called me again just as I started typing this, I answered and he said, "You come over here to financially screw me over, you run out on me, you run to your friend to cry about it, so have a nice f@#$ing life" click. I didn't call him back.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. Now you have grounds to prove harassment and get an order, if you choose. If he records on your machine, or if you have caller ID, save it as proof. There's no need for you to live with this treatment.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I was almost afraid of him too (afraid he really will screw me over financially) - his vengeful side is that strong.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take him seriously. Protect yourself.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now I'm left wondering what to do. Do I wait for him to make up his mind? I've been waiting for so long,and his tune hasn't changed.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My opinion? It's time for you to stop waiting for him to "make up his mind" (do you really think he has any intention of it? He's got what he wants right now; freedom plus the ability to emotionally manipulate you). Or do you finally start acting on what your own needs are?

You've given him many chances. It's time to give yourself one.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I heard that at least a couple of his brothers are thinking of going on a big vacation with his mom to a far off sunny place in July, and I worry he'll be going to. He doesn't know I know this.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hm. Why do you worry about that? It could work in your favor. Might be a good time to get some of that paperwork done while he isn't around to manipulate you further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Oh yeah, he also reminded me of the power he has over me, that he could ruin my career at the drop of a hat by telling people precisely who I had slept with and that that was why our marriage dissolved, so I'd better not try to financially screw him over.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. He does not, repeat, DOES NOT have any power over you unless you let him have it.

He can tell anyone he wants anything he likes, that is true. Probably, he'll just make himself like a jerk. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Consider taking the initative yourself. Once you finally decide to file, start telling people that you made a last-ditch effort to save your marriage but it didn't work. Tell them that you're trying to handle it in the best way possible, but that your husband is threatening you with financial fraud, blackmail and slander.

Then, if he deigns to carry through with his threat, people will think, "Wow, Jen was right."

My husband did precisely that when his first wife threatened the same shenanigans. Took the wind right out of her sails.

Jen, I feel really sorry for you. I wish I could do something to help :-/ Keep us posted, ok?

Go to your lawyer immediately and tell her what happened and that he threatened to liquidate all of his assets. You must take action immediately or you may be left with nothing. I think he is playing a mind trip on you and is trying to bully you. Let your attorney handle this or in the end you really will end up screwed in more ways than one. Good luck.