I've read, I'ved posted a little, but I've never really told my story. So here's goes.

My D-day was 12/21/02. Saturday, full moon, just before Christmas (all triggers). Found them together 2 miles from home on our boat. Not doing anything sexual, but all cozy. Supposedly she "worked" on the boat with my husband. You should have seen their faces when I stepped aboard and announced "You're busted big-time". Of course, he was only helping her with boy-friend problems. At least that was the story until the next morning when he announced that she made him feel young and alive, and they had so much in common. He was just so thrilled that he could get something that looked so good (his opinion only) He was sure she had had a bad night too after I ran her a$$ off the boat, and just had to go to her to make sure she was alright the next morning. I told him that I had hoped to nip things in the bud but apparently I was too late and whatever he did, I would be alright.

He called me after he spoke to her and told me he wanted to work on our marriage. He said he wouldn't spend nights away anymore but wanted to still be her friend. I wanted to vomit but didn't object at the time because I needed time to think what the heck I really wanted. I just said OK.

His family started arriving for Christmas and on the following Monday his brother's family wanted to go fishing. I asked point blank, is she going to be on the boat? He said probably not. Of course, she was. I met them at the dock. I didn't say anything to family but they knew something was up. Christmas was horrendous! It was easier to pretend nothing was wrong (I didn't have to be a very good actress for that bunch!)than to drop the bomb.

After Christmas, I told him that he could never be "just friends" with her, that they had already crossed the line. I had found this site by then and had read about NC, Plan A & B. I have consistently told him that everytime he says she is a good friend. He insists that they can be friends. I insist they cannot.

He has honored the not spending nights away part but will not give up contact. He hasn't gone out of his way to make contact in the last 3 months, but neither has he gone out of his way to avoid it. It was hard for a while because she needed work done on her boat, he felt he couldn't abandon her, and she was one boatslip away from our other boat. He had also entered into a business deal (with OUR money) that I found out about later. So he felt he still had a legitimate excuse for contacting her. Well, that deal is over and done with and so there's no need for contact now, right?

Well what do I get on my answering machine today but a company WH deals with wanting authorization for OW to put fuel in her boat on WH's account.

I thought we were making progress, good days and bad days. But this is just another slap in the face...and he doesn't think anything's wrong with "helping" her. He sure as heck never had time to fool with any of my OR OUR problems. I just have to do the best I can while he takes care of every dock whore who's looking for a free ride.

I don't even know what to think right now. I'm so sick of this mess. I'm tired of having my feelings hurt over some nothing of a low-life. I think it's just another attempt by her to see if she still has a foot in the door. And apparently she does. I'm sure she hated the idea of losing two boats and WH's $$$. Well, I hated the idea of losing almost 39 years invested and 1/2 or ANY of marital assets I worked for to some leach.

God, why are men (some men, so as not to offend anyone) so damn stupid?

Is your H willing to M-counsel with you?

Does tug-boat-annie have a boyfriend?

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Sorry for your pain. All WS not just the men seem to be this stupid.

I've still not solved my own M probs but IMO you need to start a plan A asap. If you don't have SAA yet get it. It's helped me alot.

Remember plan A doesn't always work at some point you might have to go to plan B. I've read a lot of threads and although these plans don't always work to save M they always help BS to be a better person and know that they did all that could be done to save M.

Wishing you luck. Keep posting I'll follow this thread and offer advise when I think I can help

Pep, H doesn't need anyone to tell him how to act. He's always right even if he's wrong. I went to a few sessions just to have someone to spill my guts to and to validate what I was feeling was normal.

Impression I get, "Annie" is more of a "Debbie Does the Dock" type though H sees her as a "nice" person. I think H helped her to get rid of her boy-friend and she was trying to get H to get rid of me. She has no female friends (I wonder why!)and all the men want her of course, according to H but she only wanted him (sure, and $$$)cause he was so kind and helpful (let's see...he was really kind and helpful to me in 1985 or 86?...)
Massive Mid-Life Crisis and Ego trip rolled into one?

Hurting, I've been doing Plan A with a little LB early on. H didn't want to be seen with me cause I was fat (true, but not severely obese)OW was of course, perfect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I've lost weight and tried to correct whatever else I thought would make a difference. I have to guess at it cause he doesn't want to talk about it at all. It just seems unfair that he had the affair and I'm the one making changes to try to make him forget her and he's still buying her fuel.

Thanks for your replies and letting me blow off some steam!

ok , SO you never told me our WS were blood brothers in the "KNIGHT IN SHINNING ARMOR CLUB" LOL

sorry not making light of it , I think you know that I feel for you trurly understand your hurt.

I of corse can not offer you much in words of advice , you can clearly read why.

I can support you , and well you know I am one on acreeing to save your M .

HOW? , well IMVHO eveything here on MB is wonderful , but I still feel only things you can apply are the things to fit the personality to the "H" you once knew and the "WS" he is .

Although all "WS " are the same FOG Aliens the H/W we know are still in there , so know one knows that part any better then the S .

I hope I am not confusing you .

Example , you read my thread , I do not follow all advice given or to all MB principals ,BECAUSE the parts of my "H" personality that are still there I know won't work . Does any of this make sense?

I know my WS will NEVER go to IC/MC, that was him pre-A and will always be .

You need to sit down and write out a list of His personaliy , (the way you knew) pro/con.

Then the ones that have changed "WS" CON/ for I am sure there are no PRO LOL .

JMVHO , I wish I can offer more , I know you follow mine and I do get really great advice , also I find reading others threads triggers something inside your own situation, LIKE you seeing what I am doing and going through , IS that for you , this is what continued contact has turned in to .

USE me as your bad example LOL

BUT he!! I am strong and I will do anything to save My M .

YOU be well and I am sure those MB vets will take charge in helping you .

HUGS to YOU !!!!!!

3, thank you for stopping by. Yep, H is a KISA!

I'm so glad I found MB and read and read some more. Lots of things I've learned here I would never have thought of on my own. It's such a diverse group from both sides (BS & WS) to draw information from. I agree though that there aren't any steadfast rules to this "game". What works for some won't work for all.

Like I wrote to you on your thread, it seems so simple...all I asked was that he cut all contact with her, so I could be sure this "fling" didn't start up again.

I don't want him to be there for her when she needs something. She is not his responsibility. I want him to respect me as his wife and do this simple thing for me.

I have to admit, he has made giant steps in his behavior towards me. It's been mostly good for a long while and I have no reason to suspect that he's pursuing anything with her. But I cannot help getting that old knotted up feeling in my gut when OW rears her ugly head.

Yes reading here is a trigger sometimes...but then almost everything else I use to enjoy with H is too! At least we get to vent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> and get some good advice here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

See ya later.

Glad , to here about the gaint steps , they mean alot .

YES , it all does sound so easy , but thats why I think , it is hard cause I am convinced that it has to also do with the personality PRE-A as well .

BUT I may be very wrong . Who even knows if there is a right and wrong it may all be GOD'S will witch M make it and don't .

Well be well ..

How about an update ? whats going on ? MORE important how are YOU ???

Rule One , you are not aloud to start and then hide LOL .

Well have a good week end . If ya want to talk I wil problly be on later , ya know friday night and all .
HEY I have taken gaint steps I can laugh about it sometimes .

I know I know not funny , in a goofy mood <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Plan B time.

Johnh39 - I know I probably should've B'd a couple of months ago. It would have been easier for me to do then. But things have improved so much, OW is now at another marina so he doesn't see her everyday and there's no daily phone calls. I do believe he is trying, but I think he doesn't want to look like a heel to her by totally ignoring her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

3, I posted on your thread last night. Hope all went well with you.

Here's the update such as it is. Monday night angry outbursts, demanding and derogatory remarks, all from me. I know better but I just lost it. From him, "Why do you keep pushing me?" I told him, because you need to know and understand how much it hurts me, sucks the life out of my whole body for you to still respond to her in any way. And she needs to know that I am the important woman in your life and that's not the message she's getting when she sees that you will still risk our M to help her.

When I got home Tuesday, H had come home earlier and grilled steaks and had dinner ready...as close to "I'm sorry" as I'll ever get. Things have mellowed out since and I have promised myself I will not think of OW or mention her to H. We both get depressed and angry and it does us no good. That is, until the next incident <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (I hope there won't be another).

Anyway, no new outbursts since Monday so I guess that's pretty good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am sorry for your unhappines and pain, no one deserves betrayal. I have a few observations you might find usefull, they will be more though about what I see (through your words) about you, and your marriage. Please don't confuse that with blame when some of it is about the role you may have played in the failure of your marriage. I personally see no value in assesing blame, fault, expecting restitution, defining character morality etc. I am more oriented toward understanding what happened, and what healthy steps should be taken accordingly (which may lead to either recovery or divorce, the outcome is not important, being emotionally healthy is, and either circumstance can be healthy).

In reading your story, and the followups, a few observations come to mind. First, the circumstances, a spouse having an affair after 39 years is an entirely different animal than a spouse who has one early on (1st 5-15 years). Is this absolutely the first time? (I am going to assume it is, and that is an important assumption, but it fits with what I percieve about you). The general idea is that an affair is about the ws, not the bs, so the bs should not beat themself up. An affair is always about the ws (except in the rare circumstances where a spouse is screwed up enough to actively seek some way to hurt their partner and uses an affair as the weapon, such individuals should be divorced, not recovered with, akin to staying with a spouse who tried to murder you...you don't, ever, they are nuts and unredeemable). So yes, affairs are generally about the ws, but they can also be about the bs. The first order of business is figuring out that part, so as to know how (the bs) should proceed. Bs could be said to fall into 2 broad categories...the first are those who basically carried their weight, did their share of the work, were attentive to h/w EN, were competent sexual partners, and were psychologically healthy...yet their spouse had an affair..that is usually about the ws, personal weakness/dysfunction.

The goal then is to plan a, to leave a good impression (and not an excuse to leave you), then plan B em till they wake up and realize what they are losing. In the meantime recovering from your own hurt, tuneing up yourself and your relationship skills, and preparing to move on if such is the outcome. The other bs was an active participant in the marital failure, and who is the ws is irrelevant, because the affair was a marital failure, not an individual failure. In that case the focus needs to be as quickly as possible on identifying the dysfunctions that ended the marriage before the affair ever happened (those kinds of affairs are consequences of couples who become emotionally estranged, in effect single, roomates living together but emotionally receptive to new relationships).

People say, sometime even wail, but we are married, we have a piece of paper, we live together, etc. etc... but that is not what makes you married, the harleys have identified that it is a condition that arises out of mutually meeting EN's. If they are not met, and hope that they will has been lost, then their is no marriage, whether an affair occurs or not, the marriage is a dead empty place, and so it will stay until one spouse dies, and it mercifully finally ends. The affair is irrelevant, it is the condition of the marriage that needs to be addressed, and the bs who was a full partner in the dysfunctional marriage needs to quickly disabuse themselves of the notion they are a victim, or their hurt is anything special. Getting stuck there is a recipe for gauranteeing the marriage will not recover. Unlike the first kind of bs, who has little to change, but wait for the ws to wake up, the latter bs has a lot of work to do, and if they don't they just validate to the ws the dysfunctional marriage will never change. So even if they come back (due to social, family, financial pressures), they will never really be back, and the marriage will never really recover.

So much for background, it was brief, but hope you get the point. Quite often, long term marriages that have an affair, are the latter kind. Usually the dysfunction is a controlling spouse, and a pliable partner, who work together to raise the kids, but have a fairly superficial (emotionally, psychologically) relationship. Either could have an affair, and who does is unimportant, the point being the marriage is one of accomodation, it is not an emotionally nurturing place, their is not real connection beyond time, kids, and shared experiences. The two may be aware of each general behaviour, and foibles, but they really have no idea who each other really is as a human being. And they have developed a long standing communication/behavioural pattern that keeps each at a safe emotional distance, oftentimes almost living in two completely seperate worlds. Seperate activities, freinds, excessive work habits, excessive social/volunteer activities, whatever. Kinda accepting, sometimes not even realizing, how lonely they really are. I have no idea whether any of this applies, but the first hurdle is denial. There is often an intense need to paint the marital history as not so bad, that their was a relationship, and just lets be nicer and move on, kinda sweep it under the rug, that is a huge mistake, it won't work, maybe seem too a bit short term, but it fixes nothing. This is usually manifested by an intense focus on the op, as if they are the problem. They are not in this kind of situation. This usually means one is trying to make their spouse do something (give up the op), and ACT like a spouse should (according to you know who), guilt can lead to some success, but at the expence of building tremendous resentment.

Ok, let me get a bit personal. I see a lot of righteous anger in your post, and not the slightest concern for how your H feels, or realization that you may be as much of a problem as the op is to the marriage. You bulldozed right over him, dictated how he is to behave, and have said almost nothing about your contribution to the failure. You "caught" him, and portray this as some kind of moral police. He is an adult, and can do as he pleases, whether you like it or not. That is not to say you have to accept it, or not convey your feelings of hurt, neglect, etc. But you cannot tell him how to behave, I suspect in one way or another you have been doing this most of your marriage, for the common good of course. The nature of all of us is to control our lives, but what happens in marriages when one marries someone substantially less aggressive than ourselves, is a dysfunction is set up. The less aggressive one can become a conflict avoider, the more aggressive one can seize operational control of the marriage, thinking they have a mandate, and depending on temperament can use anger and such to squash any opposition. I could be way wrong, but your posts about you, and how you portray your H, indicate that kind of dance may be at play. A woman named cali posted extensively about this type of marriage, she was the controller, and the bs, her story is interesting, and extensively documented, if might want to seek it out, and if it applies, consider it in your life. She is much younger, but the psychological circumstances seem similar.

Your H seems to be doing things, but they have the sense of placateing you, and you seem to Love bust at will, a transparent control mechanism, and a strong indicator of this is probaly the story of your marriage. For you H part, he needed to stand up to you, not avoid, maybe he did for awhile, and you knocked him down, if so, shame on you, and you reap what you sowed. Or he may be a more dysfunctional avoider, and you could not get him to open up, participate, and gradually had control placed on you (hey someone had to run things), if so shame on him, but you needed to not accept the role. It really makes no difference who did what, the marriage is over. The question is whether a new marriage can be crafted....you may not divorce, you are obviuously older, and their is a certain inertia in life, but how sad if you live out the rest of it just putting up with each other....there is a lot of that from your generation, and it is so sad to watch.

My suggestions are to stop right now telling him to do anything at all. Do what you need to do for you, set whatever boundaries you are willing to live with, but do not critize him at all, zippo, nada...and get off your moral high horse, lose the anger (and the weight), and work on yourself. You might start by telling him (and meaning it if you think it's true), that the marital failure is as much your fault as his, he owes you nothing, and you just want a legitimate chance to start over with him, and are willing to accept whatever outcome that happens, be it dvorce, or new marriage on different basis. This is one of those if you want him back you have to let him go scenarios, hedgeing your bets won't work. No guilt, no coercion of any kind, no manipulation...just radical honesty, and be a friend. Is that scarey, you bet, is it fair...who can say, irrelevant anyways, will it work, maybe but what is important, is wherever it takes you, it will be where you need to go.

Thanks for your comments sufdb, but you have our roles completely reversed. Just goes to show that the written word can be analyzed in as many ways as there are people reading it.

We HAVE talked about our parts in the failure of our relationship at this late date. We know that both of us are equally to blame for that and neither of us want to go back to the same marriage we had before the A. I HAVE lost the weight which was as much an issue for me as it was for him, and most of the anger, except for the continued contact.

It would be impossible for me to bulldoze over my H. He certainly is NOT "whipped" and I wouldn't have him any other way. I love him, I want him, he know's this and we're working on it, period.

But dang it, I want recovery...and I want it right now!! Just joking...LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ok, I was going out on a limb with not too much "data". Fair enough, so why do you think the affair happened? What are the deep "real" issues, people do not have affairs in healthy marriages (and there are not very many healthy marriages hence the "normalcy" of affairs). You come across as aggressive (that is not bad per se, just how you appear, as opposed to other temperament types), and each temperament has it's issues. Just because you can't overtly bulldoze over your H, does not necessarily mean you haven't controlled the emotional tenor of your marriage. If that applies at all, then under such circumstances a H will feel like just a meal ticket, and not appreciated. But I don't want to suggest things solely applying to you. You could be the more emotionally neglected/abused person, and his affair triggered by his lack of focus on valuing/protecting you. Anyways an affair after 39 years is not trivial, or just a thing, it represents an enormous marital and/or personal failure, and will not be easily repaired, it is going to take some deep deep searching and a lot of time, as well as major behavioural changes. Otherwise the inertia of life will push you right back into the same place you were (something both of you has said is not acceptable), because the same forces will be at work. Some conversation about fault and reasons is a start, but I suspect you need substantial (and effective, unfortuneately many counsellors are not very good) counselling as well.

Your original question was why are men so stupid (I realize it was a sort of vent), the answer is the question is wrong. Your H is not stupid, there are very sound reasons for what he did (and continues to do), this should not be written off as a "stupid" moment, you have just learned a great deal you never knew about your H (and your marriage), if you take advantage of this learning opportunity. An attitude of it was just stupid, wasted focus on anger toward the op, and aggressive responses in general squander this opportunity and put you at risk for recovery failure. I am ok with maybe having most (or all) of this wrong, your life, your call, but human behaviour is a lot more complex than it seems you are accepting. You may be in denial, most people go there rather than deal with the real truth, especially if that truth is hard, disturbing, or fearful. Let me ask you directly, are you afraid? If yes, then consider whether that fear is affecting your perception, judgement, and choices/behaviour.

OKay, thems my 2 cents, and I will bow out now. I understand the need to "want it now", we all do, I think that is why they call it work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , who wants to work. Best wishes, but in your quest for a speedy recovery, don't skimp on spending time building a firm foundation.

btw, why do you want him? Can you put it in terms that have nothing to do with what he does for you (most answer that way, and fail to understand that wanting/loving someone for what they do for you has nothing to do with real love...that is selfishness, and is why givers are prized as mates, not that your H is a giver temperament necessarily, I am just curious about how you percieve your love for your H). Oft times women are especially focused on love being about how they are protected, taken care of etc. by a man, any man would do if you read their descriptions about why they love their H. They often say little or nothing about their H, except what he does for them. At your age that is even more so, older women are especially fearful of being alone, unprotected, etc. and demand their H "love" them, damn it they earned it. You expressed this a bit in a somewhat bitter statement about giving up what you have worked so hard for. That of course has nothing to do with love, or love for your H. It would be a selfish (and understandable) focus on your well-being...but that isn't love either. So why do you love your H. Not what he does for you, not security, not shared experiences, not kids, but him bitten, why him....and does he know this? Really know it, talk is cheap, what actions have communicated this to him. (Just for the record, this works both ways, if he were here I would be asking the same question).

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

My dear sufdb, you are determined to try to make me admit that I'm a controlling, agressive, always lovebusting, b!**h of an old BS. I won't, cause I'm NOT. And I'm NOT in denial in anyway. I know exactly what's going on, good and bad, with our relationship.

All my posts here could probably be interpreted as aggressive and angry...they are. I was. I can be as nasty as I need to be here...no one knows who I am. Like a coiled up snake I can spit my venom on the OW's putrid little virtual body (how's that for agressive and angry?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It certainly wasn't wasted. It felt downright good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually we are doing pretty well now in our M. Except for the continued contact/dependency by OW, however infrequent. As soon as that's addressed or it dries up entirely (I hope) in time on it's own, I have no doubts that we will make it.

So don't worry about H and me. As soon as I whip him back into submission, we'll be just fine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (I'm in a really good mood today) Can't wait for him to get home. I'm TooOld4This, but not dead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Where are you ??? HOW are you ???

And don't think of running , I want to here about vacation ..

Miss M and 3, there's not too much new to report from here, except that OW is now back at same marina (UGH!!) but nowhere near our slip. Only problem, I can see her boat when I walk by. And I'm walking by a lot now. H says she has not been to visit when he's there and he has not spoken to her since she's been back. I believe him.

I know they'll probably run into each other at some time or the other and I can live with a "hello" or a nod, as long as he keeps on walking. I would prefer NC at all...even accidental but I think that won't happen yet. H doesn't want to look like a "bad guy" to her. But both of them know what I think about the chances that they can still be "friends" now.

Miss M, I understand about it being difficult to post details of M problems. I kinda wish I hadn't and probably would not have except that I was so angry at the time. Then sufdb analyzed me to pieces, LOL!

3, take care of yourself. You gotta stay healthy. I'll try to post to your thread tonight. I have to get back to work!

Later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TO4T,

Thanks for the update, sorry I took so long to reply, but I am working a lot of hours and they are all double shifts. Was too tired last night to post.

So, I have read your posts on your situation. I have to say that I was a lot like you when FWS was in affair. I made my presence known, so to speak, and let all know that I was fighting for my marriage and family.

I also acknowledged that I needed to make some changes, and had contributed in my own way to relationship downfall, so to speak. Not that I was responsible for the A, that is the WS choice that they make, very hurtful indeed. Sometimes is doesn't seem fair that the BS makes the changes when WS is the one that is wrong. But, change is good. And it sounds like your H has been responsive and making his own changes that are healthy for your M.

MVHO is that you continue to plan A. Seems like your H is improving and that he has come a long way. My H is also not too great in the apology area. My opinion is that you also be vigilent and keep showing up at the dock. Make your presense known. That is okay.

ow may think your H owes her something, and since she is all about the money, and your H doesn't want to look bad, ow probably thinks your H paying for gas is okay, because he 'owes' her. I wouldn't think too much of it. This sounds like ow is just getting what she can because she couldn't get your H. ow is a user, a taker, if you will.

I believe if you keep in plan A and also let your H know how much it hurts you (without LBing) whenever there is contact, that this will end. You are doing a good job of making those changes you needed to make, and it is okay to stand firm about no friendship, no contact.

I know it hurts, will be praying for you and full recovery. I think ow will show her true colors soon, getting gas on H account showing what ow is all about, the $$$.

Love in Christ,
Miss M