I know you are far to busy, but I am emploring you to help with just a quick look at the thread by dreamsoften on the EN board. She's seeing a marriage counselor who doesn't seem very pro-marriage. Thanks.

<small>[ June 06, 2003, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

^^^^

Star*fish - I'll take a look, but it would be far better if you could send her to me.

EN is not very open to the hardline Willard Harley advice that I give, and I some ethical squeamishness about just butting in.

I will look though, and see if there is something I can offer, even if just some links that I have about the hazards of marital therapy.

C

Thanks cerri....any help at all is appreciated. I'm really surprised to hear you make the comment about the EN board...didn't realize there was such a division between the two boards. I always thought there was a core of folks over there who were pretty hardline too. What causes this?

The problem I find over there...is that there are just so many newbies running around giving the most awful advice imaginable LOL. Blind leading the blind....some days....I think all I do is put out fires.

starfish:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blind leading the blind....some days....I think all I do is put out fires. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you do put out fires (and do an excellent job), but you do a whole lot more too. I'm extremely glad that we've got people like you and cerri hanging out here, so I can do work at my 8-5 job...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>Thanks cerri....any help at all is appreciated. I'm really surprised to hear you make the comment about the EN board...didn't realize there was such a division between the two boards. I always thought there was a core of folks over there who were pretty hardline too. What causes this?

The problem I find over there...is that there are just so many newbies running around giving the most awful advice imaginable LOL. Blind leading the blind....some days....I think all I do is put out fires.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starchick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .... I am very (very) hardline Willard Harley. And I don't give much on that position. I would say that most people posting at all the boards are doing so in violation of POJA, Radical Honesty just to begin with. I see little discussion of how to use things like Honesty or POJA to address issues in the marriage, not to mention the Rule of Time, which is essential.

WH's message is not about Plan A, it's about honesty, negotiation, POJA and the rule of time. I am fortunate that I live where I can hear the radio show twice a week. At least every other time Joyce has a little rant about people who go to others besides their spouse with their complaints and concerns in the marriage.... she and Bill talk a lot about how those things should stay in the marriage and be worked out as a couple. And I agree completely.

When I see things like the vibrator thread at EN, which was porn btw, it makes me cringe. In fact, I reported it to a moderator, but I don't think any action was taken. When I see venting and ranting and fighting and trashing of people's partners it makes me wonder how that can be healthy and helpful for a marriage.

I've been as guilty as anyone. Got sucked into creating friendships here where I took my issues and hurts in my marriage, rather than figuring out how to address it with my husband in a way that was respectful and constructive. I learned the hard way that my interactions here were as much to blame for the non-progress in my marriage as the things my husband was or was not doing.

EN is, as you say, peppered with newbies who give out advice as freely as water. I can't tell you how many times I've been blasted for giving good sound WH advice, usually with links and quotes to back it up. Which is why I don't butt in, I am plenty busy wearing the letters off the keys on my keyboard for people who ask for help, I don't need to go where I'm not asked.

I did post a lengthy reply to dreamoften, with some good quotes and links. I hope it helps.

C

cerri,

Saw your post and appreciate your time. I was appalled by what the counselor told this girl, but wanted to have some others check in to weigh my instincts.

I share some of your concerns about EN board. I also sent a note to the mods about the vibrator thread. But to be honest, sexual explicitness bothers me far less than advice that is just plain harmful for individuals as well as marriages.....not to mention wrong. I don't purport to be an authority on ANYTHING, but I do spend a great deal of time reading old posts to understand situations, pulling quotes from various sources and putting in links to others. It is time consuming and often wasted time...but the alternative is to be firing away like the typical loose cannon. I try to the best of my understanding of these principles to stay on the straight and narrow because I believe there is a reason Dr. Harley has been successful....this is a logic-based approach. Even though many of the things necessary to save marriages are contrary to our natural reactions....they make sense when separated from the intense emotions that are created by incompatibility and infidelity. It is hard to convince people to do things that go against their own selfish desires and reactions to painful experience....sometimes impossible.

I also share a bit of skepticism about Plan A....a bit of fluff that is almost always misused and ill performed anyway. My idea of Plan A is that when it is forced (and that's the way most people perform it) it has almost no chance of helping. My successful "Plan A" was a BELIEF that the principles of POJA, negotiation, honesty and time spent...were the right and natural way to have a good marriage. I didn't need to force myself to adhere to something I believed in and the recovery of my marriage proceeded quite rapidly from that point.

I have some friendships on the board, but I feel that only raises my responsibility to be honest. I am happy to say that while I have presented the history of my marriage, I have never trashed my H on the board and don't encourage others to do so as I agree it does very little to help people focus on what they actually have control of.....themselves.

Unfortunately, the biggest tragedy I find is that most people come here to find others who will support their own perspective not challenge it or learn a better way. The sad part is, especially on the EN board...there seems to always be someone to validate even the most destructive behavior and while I sometimes make people angry by refusing to do that....I am thankful that I usually manage to get them at least thinking....even if they do want to kill the messenger sometimes.

K, That was a lovely compliment, and means a great deal coming from someone I respect immensely. Thank you.

*fish

Saw your post and appreciate your time. I was appalled by what the counselor told this girl, but wanted to have some others check in to weigh my instincts.

I have those MW-D quotes saved in Word, I use them alot with clients who are in IC as well as coaching with me. Feel free to pull them off that post and reuse them as needed, they are very good. The links too. I swear, I have the most depressing list of bookmarks in the world!

I want to say too, that I was very impressed with the quality of advice that dreamoften got from everyone who responded. I hope she tells that guy to take a flying leap.... the MC, not the hubby! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />



I share some of your concerns about EN board. I also sent a note to the mods about the vibrator thread. But to be honest, sexual explicitness bothers me far less than advice that is just plain harmful for individuals as well as marriages.....not to mention wrong.

I agree. But because I do a lot of work with sexual addiction and I know that there are addicts posting here things like that can be very triggering. One that I know quite well said it would have been a huge problem for him if he'd seen it. Factor in the vulnerability of men and women in difficult marriages and the ease of an online EA, and the horror of seeing women's masturbatory fantasies shared with men here becomes apparent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm glad I'm not the only one who complained. LOL

I don't purport to be an authority on ANYTHING, but I do spend a great deal of time reading old posts to understand situations, pulling quotes from various sources and putting in links to others. It is time consuming and often wasted time...but the alternative is to be firing away like the typical loose cannon. I try to the best of my understanding of these principles to stay on the straight and narrow because I believe there is a reason Dr. Harley has been successful....this is a logic-based approach. Even though many of the things necessary to save marriages are contrary to our natural reactions....they make sense when separated from the intense emotions that are created by incompatibility and infidelity. It is hard to convince people to do things that go against their own selfish desires and reactions to painful experience....sometimes impossible.

OH!!! I didn't mean YOU!!! LOL.... no, no..... not at all. Sorry if it came off that way. You do good work.

I also share a bit of skepticism about Plan A....a bit of fluff that is almost always misused and ill performed anyway. My idea of Plan A is that when it is forced (and that's the way most people perform it) it has almost no chance of helping

Have you read my rant on Plan A? I think it's on the most recent page of my thread at JFO, or the one before. I'd love your thoughts.

My successful "Plan A" was a BELIEF that the principles of POJA, negotiation, honesty and time spent...were the right and natural way to have a good marriage. I didn't need to force myself to adhere to something I believed in and the recovery of my marriage proceeded quite rapidly from that point.

I'm perfectly ok with a forced Plan A.... as long as it is really Plan A, and not just an attempt to "be nice." (Which I call Plan E for Enabling.) And, it's real application is for infidelity. It has other applications for a spouse who is in deep w/d, but other than that I wouldn't call the strategies Harley suggests Plan A. I would simply call them MB.

I have some friendships on the board, but I feel that only raises my responsibility to be honest. I am happy to say that while I have presented the history of my marriage, I have never trashed my H on the board and don't encourage others to do so as I agree it does very little to help people focus on what they actually have control of.....themselves.

Yep, I agree. I have quite a few friends from here as well. And I've reported posts and threads where posters or their spouses have been bashed.

Unfortunately, the biggest tragedy I find is that most people come here to find others who will support their own perspective not challenge it or learn a better way. The sad part is, especially on the EN board...there seems to always be someone to validate even the most destructive behavior and while I sometimes make people angry by refusing to do that....I am thankful that I usually manage to get them at least thinking....even if they do want to kill the messenger sometimes.

Well, when you get beat up come on over to JFO and we'll pull out the cyber M&M's and diet coke and whine about how hard it is to stand in the line of fire... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugs,

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OH!!! I didn't mean YOU!!! LOL.... no, no..... not at all. Sorry if it came off that way. You do good work.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't suppose you did LOL....just talking about how approach things here and describing myself really since we don't know eachother too well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm perfectly ok with a forced Plan A.... as long as it is really Plan A, and not just an attempt to "be nice." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm okay with "forced" in the sense that sometimes I have to force myself to do things that are good for me when I might be lazy. But "forced" as in gritting your teeth and bearing it...like a nice little stepford spouse...is robotic and stupid. I love the "e" for enabling....what a scream.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> agree. But because I do a lot of work with sexual addiction and I know that there are addicts posting here things like that can be very triggering. One that I know quite well said it would have been a huge problem for him if he'd seen it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cerri I honestly hadn't considered this...but admit occasionaly at being incredibly uncomfortable with the knowledge that some people are sort of getting off on these explicit subjects and feeling it is the encouragement of onboard EAs. I know of several that have occurred...and I can't think of anything more distasteful than having the board encourage the very thing we are here to battle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, when you get beat up come on over to JFO and we'll pull out the cyber M&M's and diet coke and whine about how hard it is to stand in the line of fire...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now you're talking!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 06, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>