I've been in Plan B for 11 days. WW is living with a friend looking for another place to stay. The only contact I've had is through email. She asked about work (we own a business). I had asked her not to work except minimally when I'm not around. This did not go over well.

My terms for her working were that relationship with OM must end. She won't even talk about it over email. Now she emails me only about getting into our house to get some of her stuff.

Generally speaking how long does the fog last? Am I looking at months before she sees any light at all if she ever does? She's deserted everything at her home, pets, plants, daughter.

I am just wondering if it's a lost cause and I should move on with my life, but 11 days of Plan B seems kinda short.
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

Joquin....I'm going to paste Mortarman's post on Plan B the other day. I think it will help:

Hang in there. My Plan B roughly took 6-7 weeks before there was a noticable crack. Now that my wife is home, I found out that during those 6-7 weeks, things were indeed reaching "critical mass." This is why once you go to Plan B...DO NOT BACK DOWN! It will hurt you and cause you to have to go back through withdrawal. And it will make your husband think that you are not serious the next time. He sounds like there may be cracks in is armor. Dont think about them together alone right now (easier said than done!). Understand that now that you have done Plan A, and have forced him into Plan B, you have put him in a no win situation. He has an "either/or" scenario now. Either you or her. And since you said she is an exact opposite of you, the contrast will be readily apparent (my wife's OM was exact opposite of me).

Look, you have been married a long time. Your husband is used to certain things. He will expect her to do them also, and do them the way he likes them done. But guess what? She cant! up until now, they had a common "enemy"...that being you. So they laid down the differences that they dont like about each other to confront the assault on their relationship by you. But now that you are in Plan B, there is no enemy to their relationship. So, for the next few weeks/months, they will begin to be truly alone with each other...warts and all. And the last thing that your WH remembers of you is your Plan A.

Just like I told Learnin, the cycle will begin. OW will begin to LB. He will not be able to come to you to make up for what she is not giving him. So, he will begin to try to "change" her...or worse yet...to LB her because he is angry that she cant do it the way he likes. Of course, this LBing will cause her to back up and get angry and LB him. And her new LBs will only make him want to change things more...or pull back from her. And all of the time in this cycle, he has the memory of YOU. You are no longer around so he can invent his view of you. He is left with the reality of your Plan A, as he sits alone in Plan B fog.

So, he will begin to try to call, or stop by for some stupid reason. He will try to get near you, and if he does, he will try to get you to LB, so he cna justify and feel better about the mess that is now his relationship with the OW. But guess what? You are not even in the cycle. You dont respond to him, talk to him nor meet ANY of his needs. He is now alone in a relationship that is increasingly becoming worse than anything he thought the two of you had. My wife said at one point right before I went to Plan B, that she would prefer to go back in time and go back to the worse years of our marriage than to go through what she was going through. Why do you think that over 97% of these relationships do not work out?

But Mimi, now is the time to stay out of it. I disagree somewhat with what was stated above about not "hiding" from your WH. Now, while I agree that you shouldnt go to undue lengths to stay away from him, since you have a child together, I also believe that it is better for you if you have very little contact, even visual. It will only cause you to get upset and go into withdrawal again. And it will give him the opportunity to have new memories where he might get the good Mimi of the Plan A out of his head.

I think that if you have to not go to something that he is attending, then dont go. When I went to Plan B, my wife and I did not attend the school functions atthe same time. We did nothing associated with Christmas together. Several times, she wanted to come by or catch up with us when we went out to eat...and I ALWAYS denied her.

Plan B has to be air tight. Since you have a child, you still must have some contact. Make it ONLY about the kids, and only things that you HAVE to do together right now. There will be plenty of time in the future, if you are to divorce, to find a comfortable way to deal with each other. Right now, he needsto continue to be as uncomfortable as possible. And you have to get as comfortable as possible. The only way to do that is stay on course, stay away from him...and let the plan do its work.

Thanks Star*fish for the post, it really helped me with my focus. WW was at the office tonight and I asked her if she wants a divorce. She said no, I'm not ready to give up on us yet. She said that over 24 years we never built anything solid together or shared experiences to build a good relationship. She's has clearly been unhappy, why else would she have 4 affairs? Now after hearing her say she's not ready to give up, I can't see her changing now. I can't see her asking for forgiveness for her cheating and putting forth the hard effort to re-build trust. How long is someone suppose to wait and see if WW is serious about changes and really making things work?

Jo:

I have learned to not listen to what my WS says. They are addicted, in a fog. A lot of what they say does not make sense. Their main goal is to stay with their drug source by any means necessary.

Mortarman was posting to me in that post above. I've been married 26 years. There's just no way that all of that time was bad. My WS has said that to me, just like your wife did. He says he's met his soulmate. Well, why did he leave her two times to come home?

I'm now hearing scare and frustration in his voice when he leaves messages on my answering machine.

I hate PLAN B. Then again, I hate all of this.

I do feel I'm getting my self-respect back and he's the one that is feeling desperate.

Let's hang on in there.

Mimi

How are you maintaining your love for your H? What expectations do you have for him to actively rebuild the trust he has destroyed? When do you plan to explain your expectations to him or have you already done so?

Yes Plan B is hard. I hate it also. After telling WW to leave the home I also regained self-respect. I know what I expect from her but am doubting her ability to change. It just seems like so much to expect WW to dump Mr. soulmate and then see that we actually do have something worth fighting for after 24 years. I think it's the euphoria of OM that is making her aware of what is lacking in our marriage. WE have a business together, 2 great kids a nice home but she sees nothing that is "us". I'm not even sure I can fulfill her needs or her mine after so much damage to our relationship.

My problem with WW over the years has been our inability to meet each others needs. She doesn't tell me what they are, expects me to "know" what they are like Mr. Soulmate seems to "read" her every desire or "knows" what she's feeling. And they have common interests. I need someone to tell me what they are feeling & thinking and what they want.

How afraid are you of opening up your heart again to WS? How will you know he is sincere and won't break it again?

Jo
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

Hi Jo:

I think our spouses are having a midlife affair. These affairs seem to have a certain pattern: capturing euphoria again, getting that "last chance", uniting with the true "soulmate"...all things I heard from my WS.

I had the opportunity to have several counseling sessions with Steve Harley. It's well worth the cost if you can at all afford to schedule with him. I will try to share with you some of what I learned from him because you have mentioned some of what he and I discussed.

First of all the Harleys don't believe in unconditional love. Their theory is that love is based on action, primarily exhibiting care towards your partner. I'm using my own words here. Steve says that if there was love(based on showing care) in the past, love in the present and the expectation of love in the future--- a person will be "in love" with you.
What I did not have in my relationship when my WS started his A was love in the present and the expectation of love in the future. All we had (and probably the same for you and your WS) was love in the past. I know for sure that my WS loved me in the past. He used to be very vocal and obvious about his love for me. I took him for granted, big time.

My PLAN A was aimed at building an expectation that there could be love in the future and that I could show love in the present. There is expectation for the future when the WS believes that the PLAN A changes will last. I said the exact same thing to Steve Harley that you said, I need my WS to tell me what he is thinking and feeling. Steve insists that we did not do that when we were dating. He said that we DID NOT WAIT TO LEARN WHAT WAS NEEDED. He said that we kept searching, hit or miss, in order to win the love of our partner. He told me to start doing that again. He told me that I knew how to do it because I did it before. He was absolutely right. I knew exactly what buttons to push, what my WS wanted and what he needed. It made me realize how I had stopped doing these things and I could do them again. That was my PLAN A and it was effective. However, my WS was already HOOKED on the OW. That's the other thing Steve H. stressed. That my WS was extremely ADDICTED to the OW. This is something my WS admits. In fact, he used your word EUPHORIA to describe the feeling that she gives him.

My belief is that ,even if we do not reconcile, they will not maintain that level of intensity in their relationship, especially when my WS does not have me to complain about. The OP is doing what we did when we were dating, watching and waiting to meet our spouses' every little need and whim. It will get old.

I did a PLAN B letter and told him not to contact me until he is COMPLETELY FINISHED WITH HER. That's what he told me when he left-his choice- that he was not finished with her, whatever that means. I have this picture of him having to come to me on his hands and knees begging <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I really am beginning to change, only wanting him if he really wants me. I'm really afraid of the idea of reconciling. I wouldn't let him come home right away. I think he will really have to convince me that he would not leave me again and he would really work on our marriage. You see, he left me and went back to her three times.

I don't know how I'm maintaining my love for him. I'm remembering the last few months when he was more like himself. Plan A worked to rekindle some of my love for him as well.We had lots of fun and passionate hours. Before D-DAY, he was really mean to me, before he was fence-sitting and cake-eating like he has been more recently.

We'll see what happens.

WW stoped by work yesterday. First time I have seen her since implementing Plan B 12 days ago. The first question I asked her was "do you want a divorce"? She said no, I am not ready to give up on us yet. She then went on to explain how over the past 24 years we have not had anything solid in our relationship. That we have been nothing more than roommates and that we have nothing in common and don't share anything between us. She doesn't know where to go next or how. She thanked me for listening and said she was sorry for causing me so much pain. Then she left.

What exactly does this mean? More fog talk? How can she say she hasn't given up on us yet and still see OM?

How can she just leave her home and all the responsibilities that go with it? It's like she's on an extended vacation and doesn't care how the bills get paid or anything other than herself. Maybe after having 4 affairs over our marriage and me being so distant and her loosing hope and her now being in a eurphoric relationship I don't see how I would stand a chance.

I told her that we can no longer afford to pay for our kids college due to the current situation. That they would probably have to take out loans themselves. Nothing phases her. It's like ho hum. Someone please talk me back to sanity.
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
Son - 24 Daughter 20
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

I just read you post and WOW. 4 affairs don't you see a pattern here.

IMHO - Your kids are grown up. Your still young. Value the house, business give her what she's entitled to and seriously think about looking out for what's best for you.

Jo: Read Star*fish' post and my post again. In PLAN B, there's supposed to be No Contact by the way.

Jo: Read Star*fish' post and my post again. In PLAN B, there's supposed to be No Contact by the way.

Ok, I broke the rule. If she wanted a divorce it would be nice to know now so I can get on with my life, which I'm doing anyway.

It just the unfairness of it all. I have to work, pay the bills, keep all my commitments, she gets a vacation.

Ok, no contact, take it day by day.
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
Son 22, Daughter 20
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

We told you not to listen to her. FOG TALK while in the A. I feel the same way you do about the crappiness of all the responsibility but talking to the WSes is not going to change that. I've been there, Jo.

Mimi

I got it. Really, no more talking to her. If there is no communication between us how do I know if she's comming to her senses? Will she just one day email me or write me a letter saying how wrong she's been and that the affair is over and that we should start working on our relationship?

Jo
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
Son 22, Daughter 20
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

Read Star*fish Post in which he reposts MORTARMAN's post to me. In fact, read all of MORTARMAN's posts to me under my thread. MORTARMAN's posts will answer this question for you better than I can.

I've "drawn my line in the sand". My WS has been informed of my limits. He can talk to me when he has definitely decided to reconcile and then I will consider. I'm not accepting working toward or thinking about. I'm only going for definite because he played that "I'm trying" game with me during a false reconciliation and the letdown has been too painful.

Today I goofed just like you did. I guess we're only human.

Today I goofed just like you did. I guess we're only human.

How did you goof? What are the details?

WW was at the house today for 2 hours getting email & stuff. Then down to the office (separate building but on our property). I showed up when she was down at the office and within 1/2 hour she left. I made no contact. She of course is avoiding me big time.
------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
Son 22, Daughter 20
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

Jo

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

Read my post under URGENT HELP NEEDED.

Joquin,

My situation is VERY different to yours, having no children and only being married for 5 years. But we are both in Plan B. I have been in Plan B for nearly 4 weeks now. The first two weeks were simply awful. I lived them hour by hour, just waiting for WH to contact me to beg forgiveness and say what an awful mistake he had made. It never happened of course.

At the 4 week mark, I am feeling strong and capable - more and more like my usual self.

Since last Tuesday, when WH and I communicated, I have been succeeding in putting thoughts of WH aside.

By his action of not contacting me he has (indirectly) told me that he values his adulterous affair with OW over ANY contact with me!!! This sobering thought helps me to keep focussed on healing myself.
I don't want to know what he is doing. It just doesn't seem worth my time, there are plenty of other things to do instead!

The first 3-4 weeks of no contact in Plan B is probably like the withdrawal that phase that WSs go through when they do NC with OP. But after one realises that life is less complicated (and definitely survivable) without the WS and his/her OP issues, Plan B is actually not too bad.

I am making the most of focusing on my life, not on what OP and WH might be doing. (If I do slip up and start thinking of them, I try to imagine them LB-ing!! ) I am enjoying the fact that there are no more lies and no more assaults on my character.

Stay with it!! You owe it to yourself. You will be stronger in the end. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

While Plan B is the last resort to save the remaining love you have for your WW in case she comes back and is willing to rebuild the M on the principles espoused in The Four Rules For A Successful Marriage, but it is also an opportunity to have the OM satisfy ALL the EN's of your WW and taking the fantasy out of their relationship as well. Unless BOTH are applying the four rules to their relationship, the odds of their A surviving in the long run are extremely slim.

ClaireL,

By his action of not contacting me he has (indirectly) told me that he values his adulterous affair with OW over ANY contact with me!!! This sobering thought helps me to keep focussed on healing myself.

That is what I am feeling exactly. I have no contact with WW because of Plan B in order to save my sanity and love I may have left for her. Why would she bother to say that she was not ready to give up on our marriage yet, but do absolutely nothing as far as actions to disprove that very thing. Her actions alone speak volumes. I assume she still sees OM and makes no effort to reconcile. On the contrary she acts incredibly irresponsible. I take this as the future of our marriage being on the road to ending not "I'm not ready to give up yet" as in her words. I hope this makes sense.

I really like your LB thought on your H and OW.

Tonight we were invited to an 80th birthday party for her brother in laws mother. Very close family they are. WW has not mentioned the party once since Plan B. I've decided not to go and keep to my Plan B no contact.
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
Son 22, Daughter 20
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

TMCM,

While Plan B is the last resort to save the remaining love you have for your WW in case she comes back and is willing to rebuild the M on the principles espoused in The Four Rules For A Successful Marriage,

I think the "in case she comes back and is willing to rebuild the M" part of Plan B is so very hard to put into a constructive perspective. It seems like such a waiting game. She's out on vacation from her job, responsibilities, having a good ol time at my expense with no care in the world with OM. She pay no rent living with friends. I have to work, pay bills, keep house, dogs, cats, run the business, oh and water HER plants. Yuk. Maybe I should forget to water them next week.

Hope deferred makes the heart sick. How do I protect my heart more and move on?
-------------------------------------------------

Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
Son 22, Daughter 20
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out