If someone's love, respect, friendship, admiration, or compassion for us depends on that person NOT knowing something or some things about us, how "real" is that sentiment this person has for us?, and is THAT the kind of love respect, friendship, admiration, or compassion that we want? fake love? false respect?, undeserved compassion? misplaced admiration? false friendship?

REAL love, respect, admiration, friendship and compassion come from those who care enough about us that they will give us these things BECAUSE they know our shortcomings. Because they love us for what we really are; for doing the best we can; for admitting our mistakes and shortcoming, not for a false image we have projected.

If we allow our relationships to be based on these false premises, then we are forever bound by the lie, we are forever subject to losing them, as they are based on falsehood.

Just HOW REAL is love based on a false image?

How real is YOUR love for someone who pretends to be what he/she is not?

Where were you we had all those big " should I tell, or keep it a secret," discussions for the last year or so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's funny that it's hard to see the truth sometimes until it is given in words that are so plain that we can't help but understand.

In your new life are you a shrink?

Na, the shirt is a dead giveaway, you're a surfer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ June 18, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Greg Baer all I want to know is how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ June 18, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wouldn't bet cash money Greg Baer knows THAT answer any better than the rest of us!

SC: Great post.

I've been thinking about Tolle's discussion about adictive relationships, and realized that we probably all got where we are through an addictive relatioinship - of our OWN. My own M was an addictive relationship.

The question now is: Do I want 2 fix it, so that our love is REAL, or do I want 2 simply toss it in the can, because it wasn't 2 start with. At best, it was an addictive, romantic relationship, and I was devastated by my W's betrayal because she withdrew my "fix".

And the answer is: Well, because I've been M'd now for 27 1/2 years and have a family, I think there's good enough reason 2 evolve this R in2 one that is based on REAL love, admiration, and respect. We have 2 grow from this experience (or die, I suppose) anyway, so we might as well do so 2gether.

Hope it works,
-2long

Space,

You already know how I feel about honesty. What I find intriguing about your thread has to do with safety within relationships.

In order to "Be" who we really are...to ourself and to others we have to feel safe. Safety doesn't depend on the words or actions of others necessarily. If we are safe within ourselves, then we are safe to be ourself with each other.

I think that is the most difficult thing to do with those we love, because they are the ones we are most vulnerable with.

Goes to show you why SH says "Safety 1st". Nothing else can happen unless both people feel safe in the relationship. That's why stopping LBs is #1 for both BS & WS.

Thanks for this great thread!! CSue

Well...I was a surfer-wannabe! Never quite got around to it...which seems kinda' odd having gone to college in Santa Barbara! BUT; that's a long story! LOL!!!

I'm glad everyone's enjoying this (except maybe TMCM, but then again, maybe he's had too much coffee!! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I don't have any answers, these thoughts just came to me today, and I thought I'd write them down, then I decided to post them...no major event here! Just plain "this is how I see it", and perhaps simple and eloquent enough to help someone...one might hope...

As for your question, CSue...I believe the only way I can answer is by saying that BOTH partners in a M have to believe in this and do their best to act in the same honest fashion. If it's only one partner doing it, it cannot work. And it's crystal clear; we are FAR more accomodating with a person who is honest with us and shows vulnerability than with someone who is trying to "fake" us or force us into something...so my guess is that if both are fairly equally exposed to each other on an ongoing basis, both are fairly equally willing to accomodate each other's failings, quirks and other assorted maladies we all have. When one partner is faking it, it's unlikely he/she will be very accomodating of the others' failings, and that will show up quickly enough. It is when BOTH are faking it (like in my M: different types of "faking", but both faking nonetheless), that issues which likely could easily have been negotiated at the time, turn into massive earthquakes later on when they accumulate over time.

TMCM said:
"Greg Baer all I want to know is how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop."

2long said:
"I wouldn't bet cash money Greg Baer knows THAT answer any better than the rest of us!"

I used to know the answer to this because I counted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Even if I could remember the count(s) it wouldn't matter--4 different tootsie pops = 4 different # of licks. Are there no definite answers to any important matters? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good thread SC--I believe being honest with myself about myself is the most important thing, and being honest with others is the secondmost important thing. I believe that being dishonest is the biggest disservice we can do to ourselves and others.

Take care everyone

This is a good thread. If we are accountable for all of our activities outside of our homes, honesty is always practiced, then we have credibility. Our spouse will not need to doubt us. Our whereabouts should always be available to our spouse, for every single reason you can think of. He who won't tell or keeps forgetting to say where they are at is showing that they are not agreeing to be accountable for their activities. So, opening the door to mistrust. Mistrust is ugly.

Folks can take any emotion and go overboard with it. But I believe that if forthright efforts at letting your spouse know of your activities, and allowing your spouse to participate now and then shows positive direction.

In the case of affairs, Harley is plain on this. Talk and tell what the spouse must know and eventually perhaps you can get to a stable level in marriage. If you are a WS, then you never gave your spouse honesty before, you have the qualities of a cheater and a lier. So you have to prove in yourself to your spouse, that each day your love is only for her/him, and you will be honest all of the time.

Not telling, is lying in my book. It is keeping the secret that could devastate your spouse even after you die. How rotten is that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I agree that not telling is as goods as lying. especailly if it is in regards to something that would rock the marital boat. I also believe that ommitting details is as good as lying. If it something that you feel you do not want other people to know about then just plain do not do it then you won't need to deceive.
but then there are the ones who "lie" about everything, out of shear habit. that onew i simply do not understand. if there was no harm in the act or thought or what ever, then why do they lie?

How do we encourage honesty in the relationship where lying is occurring or suspected?

ummmmmm...... do we set an example? that's what the bible tells us to do, kinda.
do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
ummmm......
when are we just being paranoid? when are we simply unable to trust? when are we very sure yet unless there is a photograph.....?
ummmm....
help
i don't know wflower, what do you think?

Definately set the positive example. But is not usually enough. If it is the habit of a spouse to make up stories in order to get their own way, then you need to dig deeper. And in a non-threatening way. How to do it is a great question. If you are looking for evidence, why do you need to look further than the fact of how he/she is treating YOU! Poor treatment, neglect is enough to get the doubt of love into that recipe.

or if they are lying about trivial things to all sorts of people, then who are they really lying to? Themselves? Are they happy with who they are?

heard and interesting thought the other day and wish i could put it out there as eloqueintly as i heard it:

rewriting chapters in history in order to change the course of the future.

That stuck with me. made me go Hmmmmm.....

I personally do not take my H's lying and altering the truth and deception personally because i have noticed that much of what he has perceived as reality through his life has been a matter of his choosing to view the world from a rosy colored bubble. Yah yah yah... it does have something to do with me in the long run. But.... I am still trying to figure that one out. Maybe i am still deep in the muck and mire of denial?

I don't think lying habits are due to the spouse but to the liers inability to be and know honesty. Some people lie about just little stuff. I do not like that either. Because if they can lie about little things then they will lie about big things.

Lying to change history is what criminals do to try to get innocent. Notice how nobody ever says I am guilty. It is rare for someone to admit the wrongdoing. How come???

SC and all-

You've really got me going here. I think I'm going to combine what SC and 2long said and expand a little...bear with me.

SC wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">REAL love, respect, admiration, friendship and compassion come from those who care enough about us that they will give us these things BECAUSE they know our shortcomings. Because they love us for what we really are; for doing the best we can; for admitting our mistakes and shortcoming, not for a false image we have projected </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and 2long wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> we probably all got where we are through an addictive relatioinship - of our OWN. Do I want 2 fix it, so that our love is REAL, or do I want 2 simply toss it in the can, because it wasn't 2 start with </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now put them together and heres what you get:

Most relationships start with the addictive process. Nature designed it that way to ensure that people would hook up. Most people don't think past the "FOG" feeling of being in love. Honesty and truth don't even come into play yet because for the most part - you are being loved unconditionally. That feeling of being full is all that is thought about and it's only after the honeymoon period is over that Honesty and Truth start to come into it. Wasn't 2long the gent that mentioned that in a relationship, you have to expect to be lied to until the partners feel safe enough to tell the truth?

I think most people are afraid to be honest to themselves so they are prevented from being honest with their partner. I'm not talking about little day to day stuff, I'm talking about the hidden insecurities and burdens that we've carried with is through the years. Yes SC os completely correct, it's NOT real love. It's based on false images. It's designed that way by our culture and parentage. You have to sell yourself - good only - in order to be loved. Isn't that what we're taught in the first grade when the kids pick on you for not having the "right" shoes?

At some point in your relationship though, your walls come down. So do your partners. That's when the problems seem to take over the marriage and things look hopeless. It haooens because people are no longer lying about who they are. Their bad habits, learned patterns, and selfish judgements and demands take over. It's noticed because the 100% free acceptance has been taken away - the fix is gone and most withdraw acceptance because there's no incentive to give it.

This is the time when you learn whether it is real love, or just the addictive relationship coming to an end.

When one person in the partnership bails, they have reached a barrier in their own heart and mind. They may blame it on the other party, but they run. It's what happens at this point that determines whether or not real love can be attained.

Do they look inward and find the barrier? Do they continue to run? It sounds harsh, but this is supposed to happen in order to become whole and to get to real love.

Why do you think so many addicts can heal after they hit rock bottom? Rock Bottom happens only when a person becomes so ovewhelmed by the lies and failures that they simply let it all go. All of the hurts, pains, faulty misconceptions about life...all of it. When this happens they don't have to LIE any more about what they feel and who they are. They are awakened into a new way of seeing the world.

Anyway - when you accept someone before, during, and after this has occured, then you truly know their faults and shortcomings. If you're lucky enough to get through these events - A or no A- then you truly get to REAL love.

So getting to 2longs comment: Do I want to fix it or not? Real love would say yes, fixing it is the only way to ever get there....to real love.

Most of this came from readings in different texts. The one that comes to my mind is Love and Awakening.

Sorry for the long response...

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

fear of reality and how their actions/words/thoughts affected another person?
ummmm...
how about lack of remorse on the liars part?
ooooo....
then there is

i don't know, i just simply don't get it myself. I made a concerted effort years and years ago to be the most honest person i could possible be. I don't even speed, and if i catch myself, i have instant remorse, regret, lump in throat etc.
It is a difficult choice to make if sometimes, but it keeps me out of trouble.

I wonder, fantacy wondering, if my H married me because i am so gosh darned honest, compared to some, like his X? He knew this about me from the day I met him.

I know, probably not. o well just fantacy wondering.

What Kily said is really good. Like the addict who hits rock bottem... they have to get to this point where they will get real. All of the things about growing up and how a person learns and integrated this habit of lying into the personna has plenty to do with pathological lying.

2ndfiddle, your husband probably loved that you were honest. Don't we marry people who complement us. That is we marry sort of the opposite to fill in some kind of voids, and it works to some extent. But not if you hurt your spouse with the habits you have. So it is either fix it or you don't.

So it is in hitting the bottem and realization of the wrongs, and then just letting them all go...then there is healing and replacing with honesty and better living. If there is no remorse, then there was no recognition of the liars own lying.

LovingBoundaries:

"Even if I could remember the count(s) it wouldn't matter--4 different tootsie pops = 4 different # of licks. Are there no definite answers to any important matters?"

Which reminds me of something I read that Woody Allen once said: "They can put a man on the Moon, but put an 80-yr old man alone in a room with two 18-yr old cocktail waitresses and nothing happens. Because the really important things never change!"

Sorry for the non-MB subject matter! And sorry, SC for the wild digression from the subject!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-2long

I must have posted this a dozen times on the 4um over the past year or so, but it's so good that I think it might make sense 2 do so again, for people that haven't been around that long. This is stuff that SC posted on our Iloveulove.com "Resources" page:

"The Difference between Secret an Private:

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty:

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

2Long-

The answer is 3! Remember Mr. Owl?