Thanks for checking on me. I am doing okay. Work had me busy enough again that I'm able to keep my emotions in check. I haven't heard a peep out of my H, and frankly, don't expect to for a while. I'm just trying to have patience.

One interesting story to share...I talked to someone I used to work with yesterday. She and her H were separated for about 6 months 2 years ago. She said it was the best thing that ever happened to their marriage, that the biggest problem it solved was that they stopped taking each other for granted.

I still have trouble having much optimism for us though. Even if we do get back together, I don't foresee my H being willing to go for counselling, and I fear I will be having to deal with his emotional manipulation forever.

Heck, I just woke up from a nightmare in which I was back together with my H, and I was forced to go shopping with my H and bimbo #2. They got fed up with me and ditched me and when I tried to call my H on his cell phone, he yelled at me and hung up. It was all my fault, again. That's seriously one of the saddest things about the state of my M before my A and our separation. I always felt like I was the one who was at fault, I was always the one who'd done something wrong, I was always the one who had to say sorry. I don't want that again, I just don't. Although I do wish I could work things out with my H, b/c I still do love him (or is it the familiarity of him, even if I don't like many things about him?).

Jen

(Edited to add the nightmare story, which I thought had some important content.)

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Hi Jen

I got a few issues to share with you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still have trouble having much optimism for us though. Even if we do get back together, I don't foresee my H being willing to go for counselling, and I fear I will be having to deal with his emotional manipulation forever.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I think hope is the last thing you lose, because as long as you lose hope, you lose it all... About your H going to counseling, well don't count on that any time soon, but for sure YOU can seek counseling for yourself and see why you are this codependent on this guy? Seriously Jen what is wrong with you? I understand love, forgiveness and a lot of things but this man is just causing you pain again and again and you are like an addict to his manipulations? Please Jen seek help, seek counseling, seek ANYTHING that leads to a change... and I'm not talking about H, he you can not control I'm talking about you.

Keep in mind Jen your H is an alcoholic and is very hard to deal with it, their feelings change everyday is like having a permanent PMS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and with that you can not deal unless you start going to some Al-Anon meetings yourself. I know because I had a relationship a long time ago with a guy that was in drugs and his feelings kept changing for me everyday and I couldn't understand why... I decided to broke that and later found out about his drug problems....

Again Jen I know you where the WS but right now you feel a lot like BS to us (at least to me).. I mean Jen you have done a lot of stuff to regain your H back and you have been doormat for to long too, and again no results there... I would really like that you start taking care for yourself Jen you are not mentally stable like your H. Jen the things you can change you will, but for that you need to aquire new knowledge and skills, and looks to me you are not working on those, just repeating the same old pattern. Please don't take me wrong Jen I'm not judging you in any way, but ladyyou need to do some changes, love can twist your thinking but mainly I think fear. Fear of lose him ... yes I understand that Jen. But some day you will realize that he can lose you too and that day he is going to start working on the relationship I bet.

Jen you have put yourself in a very easy sittuation for your H to play with you, and some day either the cat or the mouse is going to grow tired of it.

Jen there are many things you have to rely on God to take charge. In the kids stuff, well we also couldn't have kids. We decided to give God a hand on that doing and ICSI, but never really got it. In my way I decided God had the ultimate choice to give us that gift or not and I still beleive that, apparently for H that was too much to bear and he got an A? Anyhow that doesn't matter...

What matters Jen is that I forgived my H for the A, my love for him did that, the forgiveness. But still my H is not commited to this M and I'm not allowing the same things to happen all over again that is why we are still separated. In this time, I don't know if we got a future, but I'm working on my issues, I'm growing like a person, if later in time H decides to jump in I would be more prepared to help him in many ways and help our M.

Jen is your H's love that big to forgive you for your A?

In the mean time use the time you got trying to grow as a person Jen because no matter the outcome with or without H you will be out of this some day a stronger and wiser women.

Take care

Jen,

I have never written to you before, but I have been following your story since last summer. Something you said in your last post hit home for me:

It was all my fault, again. That's seriously one of the saddest things about the state of my M before my A and our separation. I always felt like I was the one who was at fault, I was always the one who'd done something wrong, I was always the one who had to say sorry.

I had been involved in a serious relationship for the past six years, and that statement pretty much sums up the state of my relations with XBF. At the beginning when we met everything was great between us - he seemed to be all that I had ever wanted in a partner. He was charming, supportive and so very attentive. I always felt like I was the only person in the room when we were together, that's how focused he was on me. He used to tell me I was his dream woman - his ideal.

That did not last very long, and soon he was criticizing me for little things that would happen. At first I would get frustrated, annoyed, and/or angry, and push back; but soon he had worn me down to the point that I felt that his criticisms were justified, and it was all my fault. So I would apologize, which always seemed to pacify him much more than any defensiveness or justifications did.

After awhile I felt that I was apologizing the majority of the time we were together. He seemed angry much of the time - anything and everything would trigger him to remember some slight I had done in the past. I could never seem to get past his recriminations.

But that, unfortunately, was the hook: I kept thinking that, if I just did THIS differently or THAT differently, I would PROVE to him how much I really loved him and I wouldn't have to apologize anymore. I went on that way for yrs, until I realized that it was not ME who was wrong, it was HIM. It didn't matter how I twisted myself into a pretzel trying to get him to believe in me... I could have attempted suicide and even then he probably still would have had doubts as to the strength of my feelings for him.

Jen, there was a reason that your infidelity happened. I am not saying it justified your actions, but something was wrong in your relationship to get you to the point that you did back then. When someone is witholding of their approval, like your husband and my BF, it creates a sadness and loneliness that, maybe, you were trying to escape from through your mistake.

Familiarity in our relationships go a long way to keep us in unhealthy situations; I know it did for me. Familiarity for me equaled safety and security. But that security is just an illusion. There is no safety in someone who denegrates you and who is too insecure himself to let you really be you without apologies.

Justexhausted, where is your relationship of 6 years at now? Did the dynamics between you two ever change? If so how?

I just watched Dr. Phil's episode about self-esteem. You know what internal dialogue I have about myself? It's the list of negatives my H would say describe me: lazy, selfish, inefficient, etc. My self-esteem started out sort of low b/c I was always the tall and gangly geek in school, and then after my H initially made me feel good about myself, he went on to be very critical of me (either b/c he's insecure himself, or b/c it helped him to manipulate me, who knows).

These are HUGE issues that just my H and I can't fix. The old patterns will resume, even if he finds the courage to take me back.

I think I'm going to use my time off to go for more counselling, to get to know myself better.

Jen

So today should be a happy day. It's the last day of work until late August for me!! It's also the last day I have to work in the same place as OM. The last day I will have occasion to look across the room and see him and have that awful reminder of the worst and most destructive decision I've ever made in my life (to sleep with my H's BF).

But it's also a sort of sad day. Everyone's topic of conversation tends to be their big plans for trips and time with their spouse or family. It's very tiring having to respond to those questions, and usually means I need to lie. I've got 8 weeks off with nothing to do but wait for my H to make up his mind.

I've been reading txblondmom's posts, and was struck by this line, "He makes me feel bad all the time and I tried so hard to please him. " I'm recalling all that I realized about my H's emotionally manipulative (perhaps abusive) behaviour. It just reminds me that if we can't get into MC, that things will never change. Heck, I remember reading statistics that even WITH counselling, most abusers don't change.

Oh well, time to keep my chin up and live life to the fullest. My burden's certainly not the biggest one on MB, and most certainly not the biggest one in the world. My life's pretty good except for my marriage, and I thank God for that.

Have a great Friday everyone.

Jen

Jen,
Know that my thoughts are with you.

You're right, it's very difficult when others are discussing their family/couple plans. After a while, quite frankly, you get used to it and it isn't as difficult to take. You're not alone in feeling the way you do.

Take care,
H_P

Noth'un to say Jen, just wanted to give you this.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I hope your weekend is blessed.

S&C

Justexhausted, where is your relationship of 6 years at now? Did the dynamics between you two ever change? If so how?

XBF and I recently broke up, but we are still in contact with each other. Like you, we are finding it VERY VERY difficult to let go.

And no, the dynamics haven't changed for us...

Thanks for the encouragement h_p and s and c.

justexhausted: It's scary how hard it is to let go of someone we actually realize doesn't treat us well, it's that darn familiarity issue I guess. But you said it so well, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Familiarity in our relationships go a long way to keep us in unhealthy situations; I know it did for me. Familiarity for me equaled safety and security. But that security is just an illusion. There is no safety in someone who denegrates you and who is too insecure himself to let you really be you without apologies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should check out txblondmom's thread. It's eerie how some of the things her H says and do sound like mine. Her H seems to be another professional emotional manipulator.

BTW, I am officially ON HOLIDAYS! No more work for 8 weeks! YEEEHAAWWW!!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Back to the same old same old. My H is drunk and called and left me some messages so I called him back. One of the messages was the same feeling I have, that it's the last day of work/school, and there's absolutely nothing to be happy about. When I called him back, he was rambling on about how he can't believe I would sue him (he claims the letter he got from my lawyer indicates I was suing him since I asked for more than we agreed upon when I moved out). He said this has "set us back 6 months to a year" (in our recovery). I said it only sets us back that far if you let it. He also said he can't believe I'd sue him when he was being so sweet and nice to me. I couldn't hold my tongue, I told him that only allowing me to have sexual secret meetings with him wasn't being sweet and nice. He hung up, I called back, no answer. If he really was drunk, he likely won't remember our conversation anyway, or at least he won't claim to. I can't even begin to count the number of things he claims not to remember me saying to him in the past year, claiming he must have been drunk when I said them.

I'm going to hang out with a girlfriend for the evening. There's not much point in waiting around for him to call back or show up here drunk. Things just digress whenever he's drunk.

My biggest fear is that his reference to this setting us back 6 months to a year means he wants that much more time to live without me/to punish me before he'll let me back into his life. The longer we're apart, the harder it gets, that seems certain to me!

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My biggest fear is that his reference to this setting us back 6 months to a year means he wants that much more time to live without me/to punish me before he'll let me back into his life. The longer we're apart, the harder it gets, that seems certain to me! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, .....ah forget what I was going to say.

You finally get him to start talking and thinking about reconciling and then you drop the big bomb of "I'll screw you again, this time with a divorce" all the while saying nothing about it to him. From his perspective you led him on then stuck a huge knife in his back. He retreats to the "friend" of the bottle and then the "real him" underneath all the pain tries to call and tell him he still does love you (ie. can't believe you'd try to sue him) but his drunken state won't let him really get the words out that he wants to say. Then he says another 6 months to a year. Let me tell you Jen, when the Wayward Spouse does these sorts of things that feel like being stabbed and lied to again, it is NORMAL to think it's over, or at least set back to the beginning. How long have you two been having this dance now? Wasn't it about last August. Back to square one seems like 6 months to a year is about the expected feeling.

But what does Jen, who professes to want her husband do? She moans about it again and says, "The longer we're apart, the harder it gets, that seems certain to me!" Yes it's hard. You didn't really think this was going to be easy did you?

Now you are a week or so into this later major bombshell and you are "out of patience" again?

Patience Jen is the precious commodity that I see lacking.

Yes, I know all you've done and all you husband has done. You KNOW my feelings about his actions and/or inaction. You KNOW my feeligns about the negative influence of his family. So if it seems like I'm "picking on you", I am. YOU are the one who wants to recover your marriage. YOU (it always falls to one spouse) have to do the lions share of the work until your spouse reaches the point where they can take over some of the "doing".

Jen, you dwell on this stuff almost every minute. WHEN are you truly going to obey God and let God direct the process, doing what God tells you regardless of how you feel or regardless of your "tiredness" and fears? You never did answer my question about when was the last time you talked with God through His Scriptures. Just how long will you cling to trying to it Jen's way?

With or without your husband, Jen, God will help you to heal. To learn what it means to be submissively obedient to God. To be secure in being a God-fearing woman. And, since God is part of your marriage covenant, He will also work on your husband. But the timeframe is God's, not yours or mine. We MUST wait patiently on the Lord if for other reason than we have trouble seeing TODAY, much less the future.

Jen, every day is a new day to "start over". Never mind the time that has past. Start today. Surrender your will and do it His way. Your way, has it worked?

FH, thanks for putting up with me, and repeating yourself. I don't read the bible often enough, I flat out admit that. I was reading some scriptures this week though. Thanks for pointing out how this must feel for my H. It is very helpful.

The thing that I really struggle with is I've been told over and over again (by many MB posters, and by my family and friends) that I shouldn't have to put up with the way he's been treating me. I've been told it's unhealthy to be in a relationship with someone to whom I must always be apologizing to for everything, who never thinks he makes any mistakes himself.

My H has a huge problem trusting me ever again, after two betrayal: my affair, and my starting divorce proceedings because I doubted he'd ever start treating me well again.

I have a very difficult time trusting him again too, I am afraid to trust him, I'm afraid he will have sex with me and lead me to believe that I can trust him, and then he'll shut me out of his life again, and go back to spending time with his female friends instead.

Just as he's afraid to trust me, I am afraid to trust him. We're both afraid of getting hurt again. Because of that fear and inability to trust, we stay stuck in limbo.

It would seem that to do things as God would have me do, I need to be the submissive apologetic wife and take whatever my H is comfortable giving me in terms of time and attention (if it's just sex, take it, if it's more wow, be thankful), and I'd better not expect any more. It's hard to do that when I've been told over and over again that I deserve better. It's also hard to do that since I don't want to go back to being in a relationship where I'm the one who is treated like I have all the faults and who always makes the mistakes and who always needs to apologize and give in, etc.

But then that sig line (whose I can't recall) comes flying back at me, "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" I guess being married to my H means always apologizing, especially now with the position of inferiority I've put myself in. I will be stuck apologizing for the rest of my life if I want to be married.

Indeed, "my way" hasn't worked. Trying to be a strong woman may just lead to me being alone and divorced eventually. It's just that being submissive goes against all that I perceive myself to be. Submissive to God, I can live with. But submissive to my H, that's a hurdle, a big one, one I don't know that I can live with, without a huge festering amount of resentment building inside of me, like it did prior to my affair. I sincerely believe that my A is at least due in part to all the resentment I harboured over my H's female friends and all the attention he gave them.

Something else I realized this week is that I went to the upstairs bedroom with OM to find out if my H cared enough to come after us and stop us. He didn't seem to, b/c he never did stop us. It's like I am not really that important to him, or at least that's how it felt at the drunken moment. Not healthy thinking I know, but I know that's what was running through my mind.

Back on topic...the number one reason why I'm short on patience is b/c any and all of my family and friends cannot believe I'm still willing to wait for my H. They continuously want to know what I'm going to do next. I am learning that I have to ignore them all, even if they think they have my best interests at heart, if I want to be able to have enough patience to see my M restored.

I'm not good at giving up control. That's another factor too. I wish I could have more control over my life and its direction. I seem to have to leave it all in God's and my H's hands, and can't do much myself, other than give in to both of their wills, and plan A my butt off if given the chance, where doing plan A feels like I am being a doormat and betraying myself.

There, I've tried to pour out my honest feelings again. Am I getting any smarter here?

Sigh,

Jen

Jen,

IMHO, even if he was trying to say 'something' nice in an awarkward way or was sweet for a few minutes of a given day at this time doesn't consistitute you back pedaling.

Nope nope nope..... Instead I would say: 'Hm.... can't understand all you say, sorry if you confused D paperwork for a lawsuit, might be careful when the you do get sued that you won't tell 'him' (use him not OW) that you still want to be married to the 'guy' suing you (ws).' babble babble babble.....

Right now, his 'small' steps if you even can count it that way are just that and nothing to jump up and down on. Why? Because they are short spurts, not evoking lasting and positive changes and you deserve no less that secure, lasting postive changes.

IMHO of course.
L.

Jen, before I say anything else, let just humbly disagree with about everything that Orchid just said. Yes, there are "some" things that make sense, but we are talking right now about trying to salvage your marriage, not about trying to "fix" marital differences and problems.

What the advice you've been getting is correct about is that in order to have a good, caring, loving marriage both you and your husband are going to need to make changes in a lot of things that you both currently feel to be your "right" and you indulge yourselves in doing them simply because "you want to". That is the selfish, "protect me and to hell with everybody else" feeling that the "Taker" is so good at.

But we are also talking about the "cart before the horse" sort of thing. Is there anyone in recovery that waited to reconcile and begin working on recovery UNTIL all the changes that they wanted in themselves and in their spouses were already in place? No. We grab onto whatever lifeline we can. We hold onto the "chance" to work on things and to hopefully arrive at a newer and better marriage some time in the future. We look to this as a lifetime thing, not just "what have you done for me lately" or "it's been a whole week, or month, or year and *I* still don't 'feel' like we are where we need to be". It's a lifetime commitment to the covenant of marriage. Or think of it this way, does God ever "give up" on you as long as you are alive? Or does He keep trying to reach you, to love you, to forgive you when needed, to help you, to guide you, to help you to conform more to the image of Christ?

You must not confuse what "being submissive" means. It does not mean allowing sinful behavior to go unremarked upon at all times. Certainly you can "overlook" some things that you don't feel are worth "fighting about" right now, or perhaps ever, if they are not "major" issues. Why? Because to fight over everything raises the anger level, the stubbornness, the intransigence of each of you. It fosters the somewhat normal feeling that "nothing I do or say will ever be 'good enough'". Or, as the old saying goes, "pick your fights".

Now let's discuss a few things you said to maybe put things into a little perspective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing that I really struggle with is I've been told over and over again (by many MB posters, and by my family and friends) that I shouldn't have to put up with the way he's been treating me. I've been told it's unhealthy to be in a relationship with someone to whom I must always be apologizing to for everything, who never thinks he makes any mistakes himself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I agree. You WILL struggle with this for as long as YOU allow it to happen. That is also one of the "hazards" of MB, not just your family and friends. Jen, the ultimate issue is not what I or anyone thinks or "advises" you. The ultimate issue for CHRISTIANS is what does God think and advise and command. We are to be submissive to God irrespective of what we feel or what anyone else thinks. That is even true with respect to advice given to you by other Christians. The question you always have to ask when advice is givin is, "Is this consistent with what God says"? It's hard to know the answer to that question IF you don't read God's Word and learn personally what it is that God is saying to you.

Now about the "apologizing for everything" part. This is a tough one for most of us, but the real answer lies in Scripture. If you have done anything to offend someone we are directed to repent and apologize and seek their forgiveness. Again, if you wait until you think the other "unfeeling, uncaring" individual first gets "their act together" you are missing the point. The directive from God is to each of us individually. WE are to take the lead regardless of how the persons receives us BECAUSE we honor and obey God in doing so. We are to be focused first and foremost on being obedient to GOD, unless, of course, you think God doesn't know what He is talking about (and isn't that exactly the lie that Satan told Eve?). Think of the secular lie that has been prevalent, "Love means never having to say you're sorry". Bull. Love means always having to say you're sorry. It relinquishes the focus on "self" and puts the other's welfare above our own. We sin, we apologize. Plain and simple.

Now, to all those who keep telling you that you shouldn't put up with all of your husband's actions let me say this. Those actions are, by and large, no different from what he did throughout your marriage. The time to work on those changes is within the marriage. But the reality is that those changes cannot really be addressed now because we now have the huge roadblock of infidelity to first deal with. Now, candidly, if I saw his behaviors PRIOR to getting married, I would advise strongly against getting married. But the fact of the matter is you ARE married. That line has already been crossed. God's covenant of marriage is NOT something that can be lightly dismissed regardless of what prevailing social "thought" is. We are to take our problems to God, not the divorce court.

Now let's be honest for a moment, Jen. The issue before you and your husband is NOT all of his selfish, self-centered actions. It is not HIS failure to walk in humble obedience to God. Yes, they are important and should be addressed at some point along the way. But the issue is your affair with his best friend. Hoping that he would have the rocks, or common sense, to intervene and prevent the illicit sex makes common sense to me and everyone else. But the real issue is the choice that YOU made, not that was forced upon you. THAT hurdle is huge. All the other issues take second place to the hurt and trauma that comes from sex outside of the marriage. Neither one of you was "honoring and cherishing" the other one. That "deed" is done. it cannot be undone. But, as God teaches us, there is hope, forgiveness and restoration. We CAN start new TODAY. We are not condemned forever because of a mistake we made yesterday. We are commanded to "go and sin no more". But it takes more than wishful thinking to put that promise of a new life into being. It takes work. It takes DOING the things that God tells us regardless of how we feel or might object to it. Think of Jonah for a moment. He really did not want to do what God told him to do. He really resented God telling him to do what he was supposed to do. He ran. God let him run and let him rest in a place of "safety" for a while. But we cannot "escape" God. God is with us 24/7 as the saying goes. What God waits for is for us to submit and be obedient to Him regardless of what we might think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H has a huge problem trusting me ever again, after two betrayal: my affair, and my starting divorce proceedings because I doubted he'd ever start treating me well again.

I have a very difficult time trusting him again too, I am afraid to trust him, I'm afraid he will have sex with me and lead me to believe that I can trust him, and then he'll shut me out of his life again, and go back to spending time with his female friends instead.

Just as he's afraid to trust me, I am afraid to trust him. We're both afraid of getting hurt again. Because of that fear and inability to trust, we stay stuck in limbo. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Fear is the mindkiller". This is what it is all about, isn't it. You are afraid. You don't trust God. You know the past and you are convincing yourself that the future will be just like the past. You worry. You worry about the tomorrow that is not in your province to control The future is God's province. What person, as the Scripture says, would give his child a stone to eat when the child needs bread? None of us. Do you really expect God to give you stones? Or have you convinced yourself that you, or your husband, or both of you are not "worthy" of God's love? Or have you convinced yourself that God is a liar and doesnt' really mean what He says?

Jen, the single biggest, or most common, sin that you and I, and everyone else for that matter, makes is the sin of worry. God tells us quite clearly to take care of what needs to be taken care of TODAY. Be not anxious about tomorrow for there will be things to be anxious about tomorrow. You can do nothing about tomorrow TODAY. You CAN do things about TODAY. The great "what if" of life. This worry about tomorrow has paralyzed so many. It seems overwhelming. We can't see with our sight limited to today what tomorrow might actually be. We can only worry excessively. We think it's so huge that we are afraid to tackle the few things that we can address TODAY.

God's promises point to tomorrow. They come from being obedient to Him TODAY, not tomorrow and not yesterday. TODAY. God is faithful to His promises, but just as when someone knocks on your door, they cannot enter in and fellowship with you until you first open the door and invite them in. Until then, they will wait patiently outside your door, hoping that you will answer.

Regarding your reference to "taking sex" and expecting nothing else. You really don't believe that Jen. We all expect something more. We expect that our actions of today will lead to a better tomorrow. We all expect that through obeying God we will have a better future. We all expect that by accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior, God's promises of eternity in Heaven.

But I understand what you are saying, at least I think I do. You are worried about tomorrow. You are worried that &#8220;sex&#8221;, rather than love, may &#8220;all there is&#8221; to your husband you crave more. You crave a deeper, more fulfilling relationship that is based on mutual love and respect for each other. We all want that, so I would have to say that it is &#8220;normal&#8221;. But let&#8217;s talk for a minute about something else that might be going on. Let&#8217;s talk about your husband&#8217;s difficulty in expressing his feelings and his difficulty in dealing with the betrayal and his need to forgive, his need to examine not only what he perceives as your wrongs that need correct, but his own wrongs that he needs to correct.

What does that have to do with his seeking you out for sex, you might ask? One of the hardest things for most men, myself included, is to talk about our feelings and our vulnerabilities. It&#8217;s sort of the extreme of the &#8220;real men don&#8217;t cry&#8221;. We know that is ridiculous, but society paints this picture and men respond with finding other ways to show their feelings and love. Sex is one of those areas. For most men, in their minds they &#8220;show&#8221; their love by the act of sex. For most women, they &#8220;show&#8221; their love through other things and sex is merely the response to the feeling of love and respect that they receive way before any &#8220;sack time&#8221;. Without all the precursors, the &#8220;setting the stage&#8221;, etc. women find the act of sex to be less than enjoyable, delegated to a &#8220;duty&#8221;, a &#8220;chore&#8221;, but not the lovemaking that goes hand in hand with loving commitment in marriage. From your husband&#8217;s perspective, he may feel a need for sex but because he still loves you, he seeks you out rather than some other woman. As we all know, the simple physical act of love can be gotten almost anywhere these days. But love drives us to our spouse as we forsake all others for her. In his mind, the sex act may well be his way of trying to say, &#8220;no matter what else is happening or how much we might be hurting, I love you and this is my way of showing you what I have trouble saying right now&#8221;. I&#8217;m not saying that this is the perfect solution, but I just want you to try to think a little bit about what might be going on in your husbands' mind. I also want you think about the God given responsibilities of marriage.

In marriage your body does not belong to you. It belongs to your husband. Likewise, his body does not belong to him, it belongs to you. God directs us to not withhold sex from our spouses, except for a brief time, based on mutual agreement for the purposes of &#8220;fasting&#8221; (i.e., spending time focusing on God and what God is teaching us). We are then commanded to &#8220;come together&#8221; again to avoid temptation to sin. Sex between husbands and wives is commanded, expected, provided, encouraged, sanctified, honors God and His design, and honors each other.

Having said that, we also need to be clear that sex is not a weapon. If you truly believe that your husband is using sex as a weapon, then you need to have discussions with him about why he seeks you out for sex instead of going &#8220;outside the marriage&#8221;. Yes, this is a type of conflict. But the purpose is to gain understanding and greater knowledge of God&#8217;s will in your marriage. Also, as you mentioned about all the &#8220;advice&#8221; you&#8217;ve been getting, who might be &#8220;advising&#8221; your husband? What advice might he be receiving? From what I know from our past conversations I&#8217;d bet that there was precious little &#8220;godly&#8221; advice that he has been getting. I would find it hard for him to be acting in a godly fashion without some guidance, so as unfair as it might be, it may be up to YOU to be the one to display Christ to him through your actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Back on topic...the number one reason why I'm short on patience is b/c any and all of my family and friends cannot believe I'm still willing to wait for my H. They continuously want to know what I'm going to do next. I am learning that I have to ignore them all, even if they think they have my best interests at heart, if I want to be able to have enough patience to see my M restored. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This IS the issue, isn&#8217;t it Jen? Whom will you obey? God or man?

It&#8217;s interesting that today&#8217;s topic in church was communication in marriage. This was the third part of a series on Men&#8217;s roles in marriage. We previously (in May) had the corresponding series on Women&#8217;s roles in marriage. Perhaps if I can find the time I can share some of that with you. It&#8217;s most revealing and rewarding.

For now, let me end this already too long post and pray for your continued patience as you seek the Lord&#8217;s will for yourself and your marriage.

God bless.

Jen,

I'm one of those that thinks you shouldn't be putting up with his behavior, because there is very little action behind his words that indicate an intention of doing anything but continuing to cheat on you, make crude sexual demands, and continue to abuse you for your affair while having several of his own.

Does that mean I think you should dump him? No.

I think that you need to learn how to put boundaries in place that protect you...and that doesn't mean divorcing him.

If you recall, I said before you filed that I thought you weren't even close to ready for divorce, that you were just taking one more turn in the unhealthy dynamic between you and him.

Until you learn how to stop dancing that dance, you are going to be where you are.

You are married to an alcoholic. This changes EVERYTHING Jen, it really does. He isn't capable of fully participating in your marriage, even under good circumstances. You have to stop worrying about him, learn to stop dancing the dance, and learn to love yourself enough to choose to have something else in your life besides chaos and turmoil.

Living in crisis is habit forming. You can learn to do something different...it's a choice!

The thing is Jen, that if your marriage is salvable, it won't become apparent until you learn to love Jen, and start treating Jen with respect. Treating Jen with respect includes not allowing others to treat Jen with disrespect.

When you learn to do that...your relationships with everyone around you will change. I know that in my life, I gained a self-confidence that totally changed how I approached my life. This change in me caused everyone to change how they treated me...including my husband.

Your husband, like mine did once upon a time, mistreats you because he can. When you learn to take care of you, he'll have to find another way to treat you.

ForeverHers, I've been thinking for the past few days how to write this out for Jen. You have done a very good job. Thanks
Jen, take this time that you now have and figure out from that Bible what your role is. I know that you said earlier that you had no problem with being submissive to God but couldn't be to your husband. To be truely submissive to God you have to be submissive to your husband. Please read your Bible! God only wants you to follow and trust him. Thanks Smiaj

Well Orchid, FH, BrambleRose and SMIAJ, thank-you all for your thoughts. FH in particular, thank-you for the great deal of time and care you put into your detailed post to me.

I will indeed take all the time I have on my hands to do some serious thinking, some reading of the bible, some journalling, etc. I am perhaps also going to go for some more counselling.

One thing I find a little hard to figure out is if my H is leaving me phone messages that seem to indicate that he is lonely and bored, why not try spending some of the unending lonely hours with me? But then again, that's a question I should ask him the next time he contacts me. I am going to try to wait for him to contact me so I don't chase him away with my "pressure", and so he has some time to "cool off".

G'nite all, and thanks again for everything,

Jen

Jen: ...I will indeed take all the time I have on my hands to do some serious thinking, some reading of the bible, some journalling, etc. I am perhaps also going to go for some more counselling.".

Orchid: Good, this is good to hear. Hard to do but shows you are headed in the right direction

Jen:One thing I find a little hard to figure out is if my H is leaving me phone messages that seem to indicate that he is lonely and bored, why not try spending some of the unending lonely hours with me? But then again, that's a question I should ask him the next time he contacts me. I am going to try to wait for him to contact me so I don't chase him away with my "pressure", and so he has some time to "cool off".

Orchid: IMHO, you are still spending too much of your precious time trying to make logic out of fogese. Waste of time. At least for now. If and when he chooses to come out of the fog, he will display signs of being receptive to help. You won't have to wonder 'what if'? You will know.

If he hasn't done that yet or you are straining to see progress. Step back, breathe and relax. You deserve to relax....bet you forgot how to do that 'eh?

take care,
L.

Jen, on these points I wholeheartedly agree with Orchid.

May the God of peace grant you clarity and wisdom as you talk with Him in the still, quiet times you spend with Him.

So far sitting quietly and reading and journalling just leaves me crying, in frustration and loneliness. I really wish I could DO something to get my H back. I know some of you will say sitting still and looking after me should help to get him back in its own way, but, BUT it sure doesn't seem like it will.

From the simple discovery this morning that his brothers were together doing something together yesterday, and that he wasn't with them, I jump to the conclusion that he was spending time with one of his bimbos. Then I find myself wondering if those women have a clue that every minute they spend with him, on the phone or in person, is another minute stolen from our marriage. How do they live with themselves spending time with my H, when I can't? How do 2 single women feel so comfortable spending so much time with a married man (now, or even before my A)???? Do they have any clue that every minute they spend with him is another minute he doesn't need me, because they're meeting his needs? Don't they see how they stand directly in the way of us recovering our marriage? So long as they meet his needs for conversation, admiration, companionship, recreation, etc. he won't want or need me to meet those needs for him. God how I wish my H and I could just go away together, just the two of us, far far away from those two roadblocks, so I could really have a chance to meet his needs and not compete. But he'd probably feel the need to phone them anyway if we did go away, and would guilt me into letting him call them, then I'd be resentful, and it would ruin our time together, etc.

I have absolutely no clue how to recover my M if
a) those two women aren't completely deleted from our lives
b) we don't go for MC; I need an objective 3rd party to tell my H how those friendships are wrong, as he just thinks I'm an unreasonable possessive and jealous wife

I really needed to vent about this to someone. All I can hear though is the same response I keep getting (let go and let God...) and I feel so frustrated because I need to DO something. I need to take some action to feel like I'm useful and making a difference in my life. I feel like by sitting by, and staying out of my H's life that I'm just telling him it's okay to keep ignoring me, punishing me, shutting me out of his life whenever he wants or needs to, and that it's fine if he keeps spending time with THEM.

How useful or damaging would it be to write those 2 women a note each saying just what I've said above, that they are roadblocks in our recovery? Any thoughts on this question?

I also worry that I ought to write my H a letter telling him that I'm not going to be in contact with him unless he contacts me, b/c I'm trying to let him have some time to himself to get over the hurt and pain I've caused him, and I'm trying not to put pressure on him, but isn't writing him the letter sort of like putting pressure on him? I'd hate for him to think I'm not contacting him b/c I'm apathetic. I want him to know that I think about him nearly every minute of every day, and how I long to be with him. But I don't want to put pressure on him. Do I dare to write him a letter? What could I say in it to show I'm patiently and quietly waiting for him without putting pressure on him?

Walking on this tightrope just leaves me in tears. I sleep so many hours just so I can avoid reality.

What can I DO? I just really need to DO something, to feel like I'm getting somewhere.

I think some of the descriptors from that Jung personality test explain my difficulty here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ESFJs are warm and energetic. They need approval from others to feel good about themselves. They are hurt by indifference and don't understand unkindness. They are very giving people, who get a lot of their personal satisfaction from the happiness of others. They want to be appreciated for who they are, and what they give...They have a strong need to be liked, and to be in control. They are extremely good at reading others, and often change their own manner to be more pleasing to whoever they're with at the moment.....All ESFJs have a natural tendency to want to control their environment. Their dominant function demands structure and organization, and seeks closure....They enjoy tradition and security, and will seek stable lives that are rich in contact with friends and family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any ideas about what I can DO, other than "let go and let God?" There has to be something I can actively do other than sit quietly off by myself, doesn't there?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />