I have been posting off and on for a year now, and i was just reading some GREAT advice on Jen brown's thread and needed to get this on here...Long story short for those who don't remember me...H had an affair last year, we started "recovery", he moved out in Sept because of guilt and disgust with what he did. 7 mos later after an up and down separation we started "dating" each other, and about 2-3 weeks ago that came to a halt for various reasons that i didn't quite understand until last night.

I have gotten frustrated and one of my LB's is "if you are not ready to try then lets end this", but last night we had one of the best, most emotional talks in a long time. I was leary that the reason he didn't want to move forward was because he may not know if he wants marriage, me etc. but last night it became clearer...He is incredibly afraid to come home and fail and hurt me and our son more, right now if he decides never to move home-to take that risk, then eventually Zach and i will be in a better place and it will only be him hurting. But if he comes home and it doesn't work then he has messed all our lives up again and we may hate him...He also has this fear since he had an A once whose to say he won't let it happen again-partly because he doesn't understand why or how he could something so horrible. He said that I am the best thing that has ever happened to him and he knows all that he will give up (if we go that route), he is not ready to end it but not sure if he can move forward yet becuase he is a mess...He thinks about what he did all the time, I told him that i believe that his feelings are probably linked with not being at home where he belongs, coming to visit and leaving etc and as long as we are in this separated situation those feelings may always hang over...BUT the risk is he comes home and we work and hope for the best and if there is more to his feelings than just guilt (lack of feelings for marriage)-then we are back to square one and our son is devastated....

He is in IC but not a true believer, he has lurked on this sight but doesn't find reading stories of other peoples helpful because they are not him...Basically my question is this: do i move forward to finalize our separation even though my heart is not in it (is that a form of Plan B), and maybe this will make that "light" go off in him? or do I continue to be patient and hope he works this out? Of course if I choose the former, my risk is this is truly the end, and if I choose the latter, then I need to BACK OFF completely and not LB when i feel out of control... The conversation was so good last night but we didn't come up with a decision, and I feel we need to make one, should I make the ultimatum MC- or we end it??

Looking forward to some of those veterans that posted on Jen;s recent thread to speak up~!!!!!!

Hm.... ZM,

Your H's reasons sound very very familar and not far off from many other WS'.

Should they fear or feel guilty? Yes. Should that stop them? IMHO, no then again, I haven't been a WS/foghead.

The WS find themselves unsteady. They do not trust their judgements and often take that anger out on the BS and family.

This tends to frustrate the BS since they often get whopped upside the head from the WS with no warning or clue. So what to do?

I acknowledged my H's dysfunction head on. I agreed he was a bit spacey with his logic and asked if he trusted mine more. He did. With that, I established that I had the clearer mind and told him that I would think about trying to be the grounded one in this situation until he got on his feet but in return, he needed to give something. I let him ask because I needed to make sure I had his attention. He did. Then I said, for me I needed him to work with me. Reassure me of his care (love was too hard an emotion for him to say or feel for us at this time) and then for him to work on his radical honesty. He said he would do this. I then agreed to do my part (he asked for my trust) and left it with a warning. If I feel the trust is leaving, I may have to do things differently (again with no clear explanation). He asked what? I said, I would have to take steps that protected myself and son 1st.

He agreed.

Hope this helps.

L.

Thank you Orchid, right now i feel i have to practice tremendous restraint in being the one who leads this, I have always been the "rescuer" and the leader when it comes to emotional stuff...I just get impatient sometimes because i see lost time....
D

Well, this is only my opinion, but, as far as I understand it, plan A and plan B are "plans" designed to separate the WS from their affair partner. Plan A is for the BS to address within himself/herself all the issues that may have contributed to the failure of the marriage - being fully honest with oneself as a BS and asking oneself what it is one could have done better, then making a REAL effort to change those things in oneself. For some, this is enough to bring the WS back to the marriage. "Plan B" is designed as a tactic to separate the WS from the affair partner IF plan A does not do the job. Its not meant to be used as a manipulative tool to try to get the WS to come back to a marriage he is not sure that he wants.

So what I am unclear about is - is your H still a WS? In other words, does he still have contact with his affair partner? Even if thePA is over, does he still see her or talk to her by phone or e-mail? I think that IF your H is still involved with his affair partner, then plan B is appropriate at this point, but only if you do it properly - write a letter, and make it clear on what terms he can come back to you and be a part of the family again.

But if he is NOT still involved with his affair partner, and is now left to stew in the mess he has made of his life, then I think healing is what is needed, and plan B is not appropriate at all. His confidence in himself is shattered - he doesn't know how he can trust himself to live up to a commitment of fidelity, since he has already failed once - Dr. Harley addresses this by advising the couple to make a commitment to Radical Honesty between each other - only a commitment to honesty will keep a couple from breaking the vows they have made. You can help build his confidence by stressing that this commitment to honesty is the commitment you need - understanding that all of us are human and we are all susceptible to the same temptations - in addition, you can help to build up his self-esteem, and show that you have confidence in him by finding something to praise him for every time that you see him. Just find one good thing about him and let him know that you always did appreciate that quality in him.

Hope this helps. Take care,
LIR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>Thank you Orchid, right now i feel i have to practice tremendous restraint in being the one who leads this, I have always been the "rescuer" and the leader when it comes to emotional stuff...I just get impatient sometimes because i see lost time....
D</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Z'smom,

Good, you are doing good. Being able to see where you are is almost 1/2 the battle.

Now as for that 'impatient' part, I will tell you that most of us here understand your position. Been there, done that.

Patience is NOT one of my virtues. I had to work hard, real hard to make it so. Praying for a clear mind and a calm heart helps.

Also viewing impatience like those cars on the road that pass you at whizzing speeds just to 'hurry up and stop' looks stupid in public..... well when we display the same mentality, it still looks stupid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So when I see cars on the road acting that way, I say 'hurry up and stop, that driver is stupid (dumb)'. I had to watch how I said that because my little one used to catch me when I said stupid! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Anyway, just saying it began to make me mentally aware of how their actions looked dumb. So when I wanted to do the same (being impatient), those words came flooding back in my mind and helped stop me.

L.

Thanks LIR and Orchid..

To answer the question as to whether he was still involved with OW-no, that was over before I found out, and when he first moved out I believed it was to pursue his feelings for her, after much time I am completely confident that this is way over but the the stigma and aftermath is what he is holding on to...I guess my thought for a "plan" was am I too open to him, too available? Or is it ok that I stand behind him and remain patient with him and what he is battling (I guess I am wondering if I am giving too much-does that make sense)...He told me outright the other night that he is not ready to end it, he loves us dearly BUT he knows he is not the person he wants to come home....I know there has been no other relationships since we separated and he is not living the "high life"-I guess I am looking for reassurance that this is worth fighting for, in my heart it is, in my mind I am scared that by standing by him, taking of us, waiting is making it easier for him not to come home...I don't doubt that when he says he would be unfair to ask me wait-he means it...He feels his just punishment would be for me to move on, but he doesn't want to end it (basically he is leaving it to me, if I want to pursue ending it he will understand)...does any of this make sense...I think the radical honesty is definitely a road we could take because his fear is-he did it once, but if we learn to practice that then we can learn to know when it is happening....Looking forward to hearing more advice...

D

Hi zachsmom -

Well, it sounds to me like he is not able to make a decision right now, because his confidence in himself is blown out of the water. Sometimes when they say one thing, they really have a deeper fear underneath. He is saying he did this once, how can he be sure he won't hurt you again - what is underneath that is the deep fear that he is unable to make you happy regardless of whether or not he is faithful.

Sounds like he is also unsure of how to communicate to you what HE needs in order to be happy. So I would suggest trying to get to the bottom of this - his needs, her needs - if he is willing to do any of the questionnaires with you, and start to talk about the results, that would be great. If not, you'll have to winkle this information out of him in different ways.

So - A. You need to let him know what you need to be happy, AND most important how well he meets those needs - see, he may not be aware that he IS making you happy in specific ways - be specific, not general - he needs something solid to latch on to. Be religious about thanking him for every small thing he does for you and letting him know whenever he does something you like.

and B. You need to let him know that you are dead serious about finding out what makes HIM happy and that you will try earnestly to meet his needs - ask him to be specific about one or two things, then ask him to give you a chance. Then, at the end of the week, ask for a progress report - say "How am I doin'?" - let him know he has a chance to give you feedback WITHOUT you reacting defensively.

Tell him you'd like to try this as a science experiment - no harm in trying - could be fun!

Just my thoughts - hope this week goes well.
Take care,
LIR

<small>[ June 23, 2003, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>