Anyone, how do I update the title of the same post (IE; change the title to "Update, please read" or "New Developments")but keep all of the replies going from the original post etc...?

NW-

Go to the first posting and then hit the square at the top right (It's the edit icon).

You're origianl postin will appear in an edit box along with the title. Edit the tilte and then post.

I agree with TMCM - time for Plan-B.

Thanks Kily.

^^^bump^^^

My man,

Kily hit it right on the head early on in this thread. SHE IS STILL IN THE FOG...and has been the whole time. Do not believe her when she says that your pressure has kept her from coming home...that the OM has nothing to do with this. My wife said the same exact things! All fogese for "I can't give up my addiction."

The difference now is that she has thought about, and even voiced to you and others, that she might want to come home. Her butt is now FIRMLY implanted on the fence. She told you that she now thinks she just wants to maintain friendship, but not a relationship with you. This fog talk at its best. Psychobabble!

My friend, go to Plan B NOW! She is eating cake, and trying to decide between you and OM. Write the letter, post it here so everyone can help vet it for you. Then send it and go dark. Do not despair. if you have read this website, SAA, and any of the success stories on this BB, you know that this is part of the process. You are actually moving forward!

She doesnt know it yet, but her relationship with the OM is now doomed. That is, if you get out of the way! I was reading "Torn Assunder" by Dave carder last night, and one thing struck me in there. He said most often when a WS marries the OP it is because they are trying to escape the marriage, the BS pursues them, and then they marry the OP in order to cut the BS off and shut down their pursuit. Problem is, most of those marriages fail, precisely because of this. The marriage happened for ALL of the wrong reasons.

So, you can pursue, and probably push her further into his arms. Or you can Plan B, go DARK (NO CONTACT AT ALL!), and let him fully meet her ENs (which he will fail to do). Let him LB her. She will go into withdrawal from YOU, and thus LB him. And then, and only then, will you have a chance to regain your marriage.

Go back and read my threads, especially from November 2002 through April 2003. Watch how my situation worked out. My wife was on the fence several times and I blew it. Then last December, I went to a full Plan B...she then got mad, ran off over Christmas to visit his family and pursue a future with OM...he LBed her big time on that trip...4 weeks after that, she was knocking on my door, wanting to talk reconciliation.

It will be tough at first. You will have withdrawal from her, and feel like you are giving up on your marriage. Get this through your head right now...YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP ON YOUR MARRIAGE...YOU ARE GIVING IT A CHANCE!

This is the ONLY way out of the fog now for your wife. It has to get real dark and real lonely in there. Go to Plan B right now...have no contact with her, except on mandatory things like finances, kids, etc (and only do that thru a third party). And then wait.

This will be far more painful on her, than on you. The odds show she will be knocking on YOUR door again sooner than you think.

In His arms.

Now What-

I will say it again!

Go Plan-B. The reason for this is that you want ot remove yourself from the picture. The minute you're gone, her insecurities will start talking to her. Once she sees that you aren't there, all the blockades that she has erected will start to crumble. If she's hedging, then she is paying attention to evrything you have done and are doing.

JMHT

There are actually two more updates for you. She told me the other day that if had left her alone for a little while she probably would have returned by now. In fact she told her friend that she would have been back by now. Fits right in with what you are saying.

The other thing is that she knows I have been attending IC for a while. I asked her one time months ago if she would join me and she refused. Now she wants to come with me (her idea) "just to see what happens" and feels that she needs it as well. What do you feel about that? My thoughts are to try it for a few sessions and see what happens. If nothing changes, then go to plan B. The first session is today.

NW-

Do you want my opinion? You aren't going to like it. It is based on what I am feeling today- read my thread and you'll see what I mean - and looking bacl on my life.

I would go to Plan-B now! No messing with counseling, No... sure darling I will keep accepting dirt....

If she wants to come to counseling to do a we'll see, it's not good enough. Set your boundaries and let her know - I can't accept table scraps. If you come to counseling, it's for REAL.

Again, tell her you love her and want her back, but it HAS to be all or nothing. No more games. She'll get so scared that she will pull away at first, but it will shock her right into your arms in the end.

It may sound extreme but I bet that would do it.

NW,

My call on this is that she is hedging her bets. By going to counseling for awhile, she can further stay on the fence...continue what she is doing, and keep you on the leash. Cake eating at its best!

At first, after my wife came by asking to talk about reconciliation, I reiterated my conditions (NC ever with OM, and we go to counseling). She wanted to go to counseling (like your wife) in order to work things out before dealing with OM. So, I gave in a little and we went twice together (with her going a few times alone). You know what happened during those two joint sessions? NOTHING!

She used those two sessions to bash me, talk about how she doubts I will ever change (although admitting to me in private, and to counselor during her own sessions that I HAD changed). Those two sessions were nothing but her ability to fire herself up and give "reasons" to stay on the fence and keep OM around.

After the second session together, I shut things down again. Told her no more. No more counseling together, no more contact...told her she wasnt serious about this whole thing. Then I went dark again. It was shortly after that, that she ended contact with the OM. And then we went back to the counselor, and this time, the sessions were productive. 5 weeks later, we moved her home.

Why do I tell you all of this? Because I could have saved a lot of pain from myself, and a lot of time wasted (about 4 weeks) if I HAD NOT gone to joint counseling with her until she met the Plan B conditions! While in the fog, counseling does nothing. At least joint counseling does nothing. WSs use it as an opportunity to bash the BS, in order to further justify in their mind, their immoral behavior.

Once it is time to go to counseling, you will want to find a pro-marriage counselor But one that will be tough on both of you! Our counselor, during those two sessions, turned it back on my wife when she was bashing me. Example? My wife would say something about something I had done And the counselor would repeatedly ask her "So, what do you want from him now?" And my wife would respond with "Nothing." Our counselor would then say to her that this counseling was then pointless, and would point blank ask her why she was there. To that question, my wife had no answer.

Believe me when I say this...just go to Plan B. Tell her in the letter that she is welcome to see the same counselor on her own, that way the counselor will have the perspective of both of you. But until there is no contact with OM FOREVER, then any joint counseling session will only allow her to beat up on you, and further rationalize what she has been doing.

It is time for the light of day to be cast upon her behavior. Plan B is now the answer. She will scream bloody murder when you wont go to counseling with her, and will accuse YOU of abandoning the marriage by having no contact with her. it will be your fault, according to her. Do not respond to these lies. Let her live in her mess...alone!

You have a GREAT shot at this NW. But you are going to have to override your emotions right now and use your brain. The odds are in your favor if you use the principles here and conduct a strict Plan B.

How much longer you want this to go on? You want your wife back...for good? then follow the plan. She has no plan. She has no idea what she is doing. She is trying to beat the odds here. She WILL fail. the question is, will you succeed?

Your wife needs you now more than ever. She is clueless to all of this. You are not. but right now, the only way you are going to lead her out of this is to go dark. Do her a favor...go to Plan B now.

In His arms.

NW,

Listen to Kily. She is the former WS. She KNOWs what your wife is feeling.

Kily,

Thanks for the help here. You and I both know he is so close here, if he will just stick with the plan. His wife is a classic MB case. The plan will work for her. hopefully, he will trust it and execute it.

In His arms.

NW,

Please Please listen to MM and Kily. You are in the perfect position to pull the trigger on Plan B. She is on the fence. She moved toward you and you responded. Seeing you take the bait she moved away again. This is classic stuff.

The answer is what MM and Kily said. If you don't believe them, then go to the expert Dr. Harley. This exactly the situation Plan B was designed for.

As for the counseling, I will ask you one simple question. What are you two going to counsel about? Not restoring your marriage, she hasn't decided she wants it. Not leaving the OM, she hasn't decided to do that. Not to love you, she hasn't decided yet.

Counseling can help two people reach a solution to a problem they both want to solve. You both don't want to solve this problem, just you do. Counseling can help identify a problem, I think you know what the problem is and so does she.

She is just keeping you on the string for insurance. It is time to cancel the policy and go to Plan B. It really really is.

Do it now, and do it right.

God Bless,

JL

Just thought I add one more thing to the excellent advice given to you by Mortarman and Kily.

The ending of the A is only part 1, the most difficult part is yet come and it is RECOVERY. In order for you to make it through the beginning of recovery (which is the toughest) you must have enough love in your love bank, otherwise you won't make it. This is almost like running a marathon in which you have to pace yourself (preserving your energy) otherwise you will never make it to the finish line.

Another beautiful thing about Plan B is that it gives you the POWER to accept her back or reject her if she is not willing to follow the deal breakers of a marital plan of recovery that includes pro-marriage counseling and The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage. As Mortarman can attest, the WS will have to EARN the right to come back, and because of that will value the BS and the M much more than if she had not.

Good luck and God bless.

Two more comments that she has made that I forgot to mention before which reinforces everything you guys have already said is that when she mentioned the ill effects of me me pushing her to return, she told me that it actually pushed her closer to OM. The other is that she calls her relationship with him "an escape". She even told me that!

Thank you all for this help. I find it so beneficial to hear from people who have been there and recovered (Mortarman) and someone who has been my wife (Kily) and everyone else, no matter what their situation.

I will attend this first session because it is today in 1 hour and go from there. I will keep you updated and will surely need further guidance and support. NW

NW,

Oh yeah....right out of the WS handbook. She is going to graduate WITH HONORS!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two more comments that she has made that I forgot to mention before which reinforces everything you guys have already said is that when she mentioned the ill effects of me me pushing her to return, she told me that it actually pushed her closer to OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. My wife said the same things. And in a way, it is true. When they are at this point, any pursuit by BS pushes them back toward OP. That is why Plan B works. Go dark. then she has no one to blame but herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other is that she calls her relationship with him "an escape". She even told me that! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife told me in our first talk, where she wanted to see about reconciliation, that she felt that her relationship with OM was a huge selfish phase with a very selfish person. I had her read that passage by carder and she agreed wholeheartedly. your wife is now getting wisps of reality in the fog. but she still cant put two and two together. She can now see the two, and the other two. But no way those add up to four for her. Plan B will clear away the rest of the fog. Get going!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you all for this help. I find it so beneficial to hear from people who have been there and recovered (Mortarman) and someone who has been my wife (Kily) and everyone else, no matter what their situation. I will attend this first session because it is today in 1 hour and go from there. I will keep you updated and will surely need further guidance and support. NW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, first of all, we are definitely not recovered. As a matter of fact, I will be posting hopefully tonight with my own issues in recovery. Others are right here...recovery is far more difficult! But, we are in recovery and trying to move forward.

Second, I am very interested in how the MC goes today. I am betting that it will be a disastor, although I do not wish that on you. Watch your wife. See how she reacts. Do not get in the he-said-she-said. Just stay on message, as outlined so well by the master, JustLearning, above.

Post back afterwards and let us know what happened.

In His arms.

Well the counselor wanted to just talk with her today. I have been working with him since Feb or so and he has my side of things. She was in there an hour while I was in the nearby waiting room. I overheard some of what she said because she was kind of loud. She rehashed past issues where I did not support her emotionally, some over 5 years old. I have heard these over, and over, and over. I cannot change the past, only ensure that I do not repeat it. I also heard her talking about me moving on etc... She was very I know, I know to everything the guy said, interrupted him and cut him off several times. Not in an angry way, just like she knew all of the answers. She said that she is afraid to try again with me out of fear it will fail. She was sounding very sure of herself.
He reminded her of obligations in life,especially after becoming a parent, the fact that there are repricussions (sp?) for certain choices and that no matter what choice she makes, there are risks, with some greater then others. He also told her that any man (regarding OM) who involves himself with a vulnerable woman during a vulnerable time of her life (while we were having difficulties)and becomes part of the break up of a family is not of very high character. He told me that she was tough and did not open up much and gave her info for further sessions if she chooses.
She called me later, acting somber and left a message that I did not return asking me what I thought about the session. She then drove over to my house unannounced about 1/2 hr later with the same question. I told her that I could not really answer that because it was her session. I asked her what she thought and she told me that he didn't say much that she didn't already know. She then said that the counselor gave her a lot to think about and that she would be doing that. I asked her if she intended on more She said that she was not sure if she needed to and I reminded her that she can't get much out of 1 session. She was acting somewhat depressed and quiet. Seems like pretty much more of the same.

You are playing a dangerous game by delaying the implementation of Plan B. The more you expose yourself to the toxic effects of her A, the more she is going to fence sit and the more difficult it will be for YOU to have enough love to weather recovery.

They won't listen to anything anyone says while they're in the fog. Steve Harley told me that "you can't be called a TEACHER if you don't have a STUDENT". I gave my WS a copey of SAA to read about WITHDRAWAL after our False Recovery and he said "None of that applies to me". It was almost hilarious since he fit the book to a T.

The scripts are always the same. Your WS is saying exactly what mine has said. I know I'm being SELFISH, etc. Unfortunately, it's probably time for PLAN B. Counseling won't work. In the WS' mind at this time, the goal is to keep getting the AFFAIR FIX. It's an addiction.

Take good care. I know exactly what you are facing.

NW,

As I said before...the counseling went pretty much as predicted.

Plan B NOW!

In His arms.

I dropped the kids off the morning of July 4th because it was her weekend. I walked in, said goodbye to the kids and walked out with out speaking to her. She called about 15 minutes later and left a message telling me that she hoped that I had a good day and weekend and that she was sorry "Things are so screwed up." She sounded like she was about to cry. I don't know.
I went home later and wrote a Plan B letter that I plan to send. We will see what happens.

Two updates. I heard that my wife was very upset about how I just left without speaking to her on July 4. She was also telling her friend that the counselor had really "messed her up" and made her realize some things about me (positive) and the OM (negative) and that she thinks she will keep going. I have not spoken to her or seen her since July 4. She called me the following day leaving a message asking for something from our house but I never returned her call. She called again a little while later but did not leave a message.
I also finished my plan B letter and sent it this morning! I wrote it using ideas from the sample letters I found on another thread and fashioned it to my situation and knowing my wife. I know this will be hard, it feels like I am quitting. I will need all of your support.