While I am admittingly not always right (find me someone who is!), I believe I have always had a pretty good judge of character. My WW does not see the things I see regarding the OP. Wife is an alcoholic, having gone through treatment this year and is in recovery and, by the way, is doing fine with it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . I am very proud of her! The OP has and continues to show signs of total control, using manipulation and flattery as tools to lure and convince my wife why he is the "one" and should leave me once again. (WW left me last October, went into treatment in February, returned home in March and is being pressured by OP to leave me now). Ok, get this: he gave her an ultimatum: "if you're not "home" when I get home from work on Monday (today the 30th), I will come over and there will be a confrontation (meaning with me, mind you he is a vey small & weak man physically), and I'll just take you and the kids "home" at that time". This is what my wife told me on Saturday. At that time she said she does not want a confrontation, and because she is so confused and such, cannot break contact with him, and cannot commit to 100% to rebuilding our marriage that she would leave before that "deadline" got here. Now, in reading this site, I have seen where the spouse that has been cheated on sometimes gives the WS a deadline, but who the hell does this guy think he is, givng my wife an ultimatum, by putting this type of stuff in my wife's head at a time when she continues to be very vulnerable. I have tried to show her his manipulation & controlling ways, which she does not see obviously. Of course coming from me, she would not. She interpreted this ultimatum as an act of extreme love. Ok, whatever..I could go on with more examples of this guy's manipulative ways, but for now will leave you with two that are fresh from this past weekend. In addition to this "deadline", he gives my son a birthday card, which I happen to come across. Before he signed his name at the end he writes, "Without Mom's approval, I'd like to stay alive". Ok, what does that mean, and why would you write that in a birthday card?? Son is 18 but...is it just me?? My wife gave permission for our daughter to go away this past wekend with him and his son to visit his (son's) girlfriend at college. To initiate this trip he says to my daughter and wife, "we're not going to visit her unless (my daughter & wife) go with us. Ok, is is just me....? So, my wife wakes up sick in stomach on Sunday (the 29th)morning, the day this trip is planned, because the night before we stayed up very late having a very emotional conversation, and apparantly made her nerves bad, causing the upset stomach. My wife ends up not going, cancelling out early Sunday morning. So they still make the trip, with daughter, and without my wife. So before trying to talk her (my daughter, who is 9) into staying over last night (which she did not want to )he drives her home, telling her on the way, that "I will always love you and if you ever need me, just call". Ok, is it just me, or is this what you tell someone that you will never see again? That conflicts with the deadline he gave my wife (the confrontation, be there when I get home from work, or else thing). So please, anybody, tell me it's not me and that my wife is really that blind and under the influence of this guy's manipulation and control. I am not sure what is going to happen today. My wife caught me in moment of "extreme breakdown" yesterday, sobbing like a baby, and through this think I heard her say that she will not leave me and that she promises to try. But, the point of this post is....is is just me????

Dear tommy1414 -

It doesn't sound to me like this is your imagination. Can you tell us more about your W's affair - has she tried to end it? Who is the OP in relation to her and how did she meet him? Why does she continue contact with him? You have the say over who your 9-yr-old daughter sees - don't agree for her to go with this guy if you don't want her to. What does 18-yr-old son think? Have you tried to talk to him?

If he is threatening violence against you, you can get a RO against him. Are you in counselling? Does your W have a counselor?

Hang in there, I will try to get others to come on and help you.

LIR

tommy,

Welcome to forum. I am not an oldtimer, but I hope my opinion will be welcome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

For what it's worth...no, it is not just you. This does indeed sound like a controlling manipulative.....but more importantly "desperate" man. The desperate part is important, because he is deathly afraid that your wife will chose you. And the more desperate he is....the more likely he is to make big mistakes. Don't waste your time criticizing him....but rather show your wife (who sounds very stressed and depressed) how emotionally mature people relate to one another. Protect her. By that, I mean tell her that she doesn't have to give in to his threats and that she is safe with you. Make no judgements about either she or him. Stay in a Plan A (which is where I hope you are) a little longer and include as part of that plan, being honest with her (without LBing) about how the continued contact makes you feel. It sounds to me, like his desire to have her all to himself...is interpreted by her to mean that he loves her. Use honesty instead of ultimatims to do the same thing. Tell her that the thought of someone else touching her makes you feel crazy and that you could give her deadlines too....but that you respect her too much to force her to choose you. Don't say he's stupid....make him LOOK stupid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, it's evening now and my wife was here. Think it was a very stressful day for her as today was the deadline. She tried to make an appt with her counselor today but with no luck, as she told me earlier in the day that she would have to go down to his house and talk to him this evening for awhile and she appeared not to be looking forward to it. She is there now talking about what I have no clue. feeling kind of discouraged at the moment, yes she was home this evening, but have that hopeless feeling that I know I need to ignore. To Lady in Red: My wife said that she did try and break contact with him, but it didn't work. OP is an employer of hers. She rarely works at this place anymore (college), but does once every other month or so. The place is close by and she has other friends who work there, so of course there is always a reason to stop by. Like I said in my first post, being a new recovering alcoholic, I have been trying to be easy on her, trying not to trigger her. I know I cannot control her, or control it if she decides to take a drink, but at the same time, I do not want to create a situation/environment where she will have that desire. Guess it does not really matter, she is in that situation now, says she is being pulled in two different directions. Counselor says she needs to do what makes her happy, AA tells her she needs to give up free will and let the Higher Power take control. I tell her my feelings of love and marriage, and who knows what the OP is telling her, except to give her deadlines. Have read many posts on this board and I must say, while affairs create a complicated mess of things, so many seem easily complicated, but this one seems horribly complicated. Of course, any who has been there probably can say the same thing. Will update in the morning.

The ultimatum by him is just a desperate attempt a drawing a line in the sand...that he has no control over or real way to enforce...

What is extremely concerning and bizarre and I really really hope your wife sees the strangeness of his including your and her children in his "threat"

HIs belief that he delivers an ultimatum that includes the upheavel of children <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
speaks volumes of someone who is grasping at straws and not stable...
I hope you pointed this out to your wife in a non l-bing way....because...his involvement with your children...is strange....

What do the children know/say of this guy...I would have large reservations over letting them around them...can you cut down on their contact with him as well...without really making it obvious to them....

I would be very concerned about what he tells them...

can you and wife and kids get away for a while from him...

ark

<small>[ July 01, 2003, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Good Morning all! It is the morning after. Wife came home after about 2 hours or so of meeting with OP. Was very tempted to ask what came out of it, what she discussed, etc. , but had been an emotional enough day, and weekend for both of us, figured I'd let it drop for now. She came home in what appeared to be a slightly better mood than when she left. At bed time I asked If I could give her a kiss goodnight, despite her emotional state. Admitted that she was not in a good emotional state, but told me I could kiss her goodnight. We ended up making love. I'm not complaining, but after the past three days....Don't have much time to type this morning. Guess we'll just see how the day goes, we'll just see how the minutes go. Ark: I have tried to point out his manipulative ways to my wife, but she does not buy in. Like I said, the deadline thing to her was an act of extreme love, and I did point out that I could of done that at any time, but chose not to being as though she is my wife, and in recovery. Not really in a position to get away on a a temporary basis. We did speak of moving out of state. She said she thought of this also, but mentally he would still be there. It has only been 4 months since her return home (after leaving his place to go into treatment for a month). Can only hope and pray.

tommy,

Still not clear on how and why he has so much access to your children...

why the birthday card to son..
why daughter going on a day with him...

what boundaries do you have in place...for you...and them...ones that admit to having no control over what wife does...but certainly what you ALLOW in your home....

I know I cannot control her, or control it if she decides to take a drink, but at the same time,
I do not want to create a situation/environment where she will have that desire.

Get thee to ALANON my friend...extremely dangerous approach to your life....there is nothing you can do or not to make you resposible for your wife to drink or not....

Counselor says she needs to do what makes her happy
counselor is an [censored]....

Have you confronted this OM?
Have you set any boundaries on contact with your children....

Basically this guy thinks it is reasonable to threaten to take YOUR children out of their home...I am not as interested in your wife's reactions to his crap...but his adaucity to believe he has any claim to your children...

I would be thinking restraining orders and such...
I would be limiting my childrens contact with this man...

be wary of fog induced aliens attempts to make completely irrational behavior and thought appear to be rational...
there is nothing rational about threatening to take your children form there home on an upcoming monday evening...or any day for that matter....

tommy I am not trying to upset you...just hoping that you are not acting out of so much fear of upsetting wife ...being responsible for her drinking...or anything else...

boudaries for you are very important...

ARK

tommy,

ditto what Ark said!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife said that she did try and break contact with him, but it didn't work. OP is an employer of hers. She rarely works at this place anymore (college), but does once every other month or so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would contact the president of the college he works at and inform him/her of his relationship with your W. Chances are that s/he will not be too happy with him and MAY decide to take some disciplinary action against him for his behavior with one of his employees. Who knows if he MAY have already done this in the past with another college employee, and IF this is his latest incident, he may face termination. The last thing a place like a college needs, is a scandal created by one of their own.

Good Morning all. Again, just time enough to jot a few lines. Ark, I appreciate your comments and feedback. I am very open to all feedback, you have not upset me. To answer a few things...contact lately with my kids has been more than normal. OP has an older son, out of school, on his own that has been staying with his father for past several weeks. This kid does not drive and grew close to my kids while they were living at OP house. This is where OP comes into the picture with my kids. OP son ( I knew him) is a decent kid, even has admitted that his own father is an [censored] before this whole cherade began. I admit that I have been too easy with the boundries and limitations and such, but through my words and actions have been trying to force the issue back to her, to alllow her to make the decisions. I have been kind (maybe too much so?), yet firm. When I came home from work last night yet another emotional evening awaited. Told me of her conversation Monday evening with OP. Told him that after his son went back home, after this wekend, there would be no further contact with him. Told him that "I need to know that I've given 100%", to the process of repairing our marriage before making a permenent decision. Bottom line: appears that she has taken the first step on the path to rebounding and reinforcing our relationship. Now, will come the serious rebuilding process, one that I have confidence is all that she needed to make this work once again. I realize that I cannot jump up and down, but must be catious, not thinking that this is a guarantee. To "begin" healing she bought me the most hugest set of fireworks, as she know I am just a boy on the 4th of July, a set like no other we have ever had. She told me to think of this as a beginning because she knows how much I love my fireworks on the 4th. Secondly, we went bowling last night for alomost 3 hours, both of us feeling very happy (though probably emotionally drained still), and having an incredible amount of fun. So, vets of this board, and others who have been there....is this the beginning?? Thanks for all of your feeback.

Dear tommy,

I think the signs are very positive - very positive. But I think you have to be prepared now that she has made these moves to heal the relationship. Have you read Harley's four rules for a good marriage? Spending time together, like the bowling, is crucial - you should, if you can, make a commitment to each other to spend time every week together, not leave it to chance - doing something you both enjoy.

It sounds like she has made a commitment to NC, which is great, but how are you going to be sure she follows through? Harley says that commitment to fidelity is only possible if there is a commitment to total honesty between husband and wife. Can she, will she commit to being honest with you at all times, and you also making this commitment to her - a mutual commitment to honesty at all times in your life together. Will she be willing to be transparent with you - not hiding anything, not having secrets - removing all sources of temptation, such as private e-mail accounts and private cellphones? You could approach it in the same way that you discuss temptation with an alcoholic - if there is an opportunity to do it and hide it, an alcoholic can find the temptation overwhelming. So - no hidden booze in the house = no hidden means of communication with OP - too tempting. You must also make the commitment to transparency with her.

I can see why you have been lenient about the children - wanting her to make the decisions. But in the same way that you wouldn't let an active alcoholic drive with your children in the car, you can't let an active "fogged" WS make the decision to allow your children contact with a toxic OP. This person has shown himself to be unscrupulous in his using both your children and his own to gain access to your wife. Its your duty as a parent to take steps to protect your children from both physical and emotional harm in such a situation. You have a right to protect your children. I was used by my father's OW to get at my mother when I was 9 years old - I can tell you that the effects, when a child realizes they have been used by someone who has gained their trust, to harm the people they love most in the world, is devastating emotionally - please don't allow this to happen to your children. They will respect you for protecting them, later in life.
You can do this both gently and firmly. Just say no to all contact, quietly but decisively, and don't allow any argument on the matter. Don't get mad if anyone objects - just do it and be firm. Does anyone else have ideas about how tommy could handle this?

I would also say that you need to sit down and think about how you are going to handle it when/if OM starts trying to contact your wife. You need to work out how you are going to deal with this possiblity so that you are not caught off-guard - expect him to continue pursuing her, so that you can be mentally prepared to deal with it without blowing your cool and jeopardizing your recovery.

OK? Easier said than done - but...hang in there!

God bless,
LIR

tommy,
but through my words and actions have been trying to force the issue back to her, to alllow her to make the decisions.

sorry but I don't believe that a newly recovering alcoholic whose recent track record is a good bet to let make decisions REGARDING the children...

To me that's your job big time...while she has to make decisions for herself...no control on your part....the kids is a whole new ball game...

Oooh and look Lady in Red said the same... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
even better than I...

Also how much if any contact have you had with OM?
What is his response to YOU??

I still hold great concern about your belief that you could do something that would cause her to drink...

Please go to Alanon if you haven't yet...

look at your boundaries....you need them....
to protect you and the children....