Conan:

I just wanted 2 chime in here and offer my support for whatever you decide you must do.

I've followed your story for over a year now, as you have followed mine, and I know this has been rough.

I just discovered some recent emails between my W and RM that would have been very hurtful 2 me if this had been a year ago. Now? Well, they're still hurtful, but they're so "script" that it would be hilarious if this wasn't real life (in fact, the content is very similar 2 that of a year ago!). My W is being very close 2 me and her family, getting closer all the time, and yet is complaining 2 RM about how she never wanted 2 be M'd and how M is "legalized prosti2tion" amongst other things.

When I saw the emails, initially I wanted 2 react. I wanted 2 confront (still may do this, but not until I have a clear pic2re of how 2 do so, and LOVINGLY), but when I think about it, there are a 2ple of things that stand out in technicolor and bold relief:

*Number A: she doesn't want 2 leave or lose her family or me. She's truly getting closer 2 us and happier in general. (my backing off pressuring her 2 "do anything" may just be giving her the impetus 2 do something!).

*Letter 2: the dichotomy between her life with us and her "secret 2nd life" with RM (via email and phone, not in person in well over a year and a half) are getting more and more extreme. It's got 2 be hard 2 maintain that. Something is going 2 crack, and I believe it's going 2 be the R with RM, and soon (particularly if I keep up what I'm doing).

This is delicate stuff. I need 2 be careful 2 try not 2 control the outcome, just myself. When I back off needing 2 control other people or the outcome, the things I truly desire tend 2 unfold more readily. I wouldn't have believed this was possible until I tried it and consistently have seen it. It's an amazing phenomenon. This doesn't mean I have all the answers, I don't. Not even for me all the time, and certainly not for you or others here.

For me, it's the letting go that's having the most positive effect on ME lately. In the recent past, I've focused on other things. In the fu2re, I expect it will be something else. But I will endeavor, throughout, 2 NOT focus on the A or the continued contact. That doesn't mean I plan 2 tolerate it. It does mean, though, that I plan 2 cease 2 give it any more power. From what I saw, their R is strained, and may be about 2 break. RM is in a "nasty DV" (my W's words), and yet seems 2 be trying 2 avoid my W most of the time (but not always, probably because of HIS addiction).

I think that, if I were 2 confront my W from a "victim stance" that I'd just drive her underground and prolong the contact (and we all know I've done THAT before, many times!). What I've been seeing lately is that, by consistently showing her that I love her, that I WANT HER, but that I will be okay whatever she decides 2 do, she's been "living more clearly" with us while at the same time her convos with RM have been getting more and more confused and inconsistent with her "real life."

Only she can decide what she wants 2 do with her life. At the same time, only I can decide what I want. And when I need 2 act. I've been thinking a lot about the content of the emails I saw (just yes2rday), and though they were certainly strange 2 read (because of the dichotomy), they certainly were nothing new. And as such, confronting her about them probably won't do me or her any good. Continuing what I've BEEN doing will, on the other hand. Because it HAS been having an effect.

I know that J.R. is out there lurking ( ). I want 2 apologize 2 J.R. here for hounding him 2 "do something" when I've been seeming 2 not do anything for so long (2long). In the end, I think that this "perceived inactivity" on my part (and probably his as well) is really the opposite. My hat is off 2 you, J.R., whatever you choose 2 do (and whenever you choose 2 do it! )

And so, Conan, I wish you all the best. Good things will come your way!

"When a man finds his way, heaven is gentle." -David Carradine, the original "Kung Fu" series.

-ol' 2long.

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

You’re a patient man, 2long, and you know, I’ve been patient too, but at some point I just couldn’t go on anymore….. Anyway, because of our patience, because of the outcome we so much desire, I do know that our mind sometimes plays “tricks” on us – which lead us to believe things which could be read the other way too, which are essentially wishful thinking.

Now, let me play devil’s advocate here a bit:

<strong>
*Number A: she doesn't want 2 leave or lose her family or me. She's truly getting closer 2 us and happier in general. (my backing off pressuring her 2 "do anything" may just be giving her the impetus 2 do something!).
</strong>

Fact is, that despite your ‘backing off’ she is still in contact. She is happier, no wonder as it’s really cosy up there on the fence. Before, you rattled on that fence once in a while, however now, its safe and stable. She is increasingly getting used to a situation where reality is lived with you, and all her secret passions, emotions, steam is let of with her buddy OM. That sounds like a real good deal to me…. why on earth would she want to change any of that? She’s proven over the past years indeed that it’s easy to play with you (and the other chap too) to keep the triangle nicely balanced. Now, if you think you get a good deal out of this arrangement, then that’s great for you

<strong>
*Letter 2: the dichotomy between her life with us and her "secret 2nd life" with RM (via email and phone, not in person in well over a year and a half) are getting more and more extreme. It's got 2 be hard 2 maintain that. Something is going 2 crack, and I believe it's going 2 be the R with RM, and soon (particularly if I keep up what I'm doing).
</strong>
Wrong. In fact, distance even facilitates the relationship, as it helps keeping it unreal. Again, I’ve been there. The further they are apart, the more they start projecting secret wishes etc into each other and idealising each other till they think of each other as knight in shining armour respectively a rosy princess. Now, how do you measure up to that, with burps, body odour, warts and everything real life brings with it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bottom line, I do think that the current arrangement is deeply unfair to you, however, you don’t seem to mind too much and seemed to got used to the suffering and learnt how to cope with repeated discovery of emails, phone calls etc. Similarly, the triangle you guys are in is stable in so far as you don’t want to rock the boat; your wife is cosily high up on the fence, and the other chap? Don’t know, but for him it’s probably an email and a half a day he has to invest in order to keep a potential future option nicely cooking on the stove. In game-theory-speak there is a dominant strategy motivated by your fear of a very negative pay-off in the scenario where you would lose her.

Now, I might be all wrong of course and your perseverance may pay off, happily ever after and all that. By God, you will have deserved it.
Good luck and so long,
Nick

2long, I have also been trying to be patient with my H. but we have been seperated for a yr now and OW 2 is pregnant. How much do people have to take? I was very hope ful too for the last few months but when I found out about her being pg, it was klike, well now he has sucj=h a good excuse to not leave her and supposedly she has a history of miscarriages so to tell her anything well that could be awful. So he is on the fence and when I rattle it he hates it, when I'm nice and caring all the time and let him do what he wants everything is fine. He can see me once in a while, have sex, go out with me to dif. places as long as it's not too late and then run back to her in the evening and be with her. Nice, huh. Except I am too tired to play it any more. I guess I need to plan b, but he takes that as rejection, but pretty soon it won't matter, I just don't really have any hope of him changing at all.

I answered your email.

Pep

PS don't read my email if you're feeling shakey. I'm pretty rough and non-ILUL, and non_MB too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

I read your emails! And SS's, 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm not shakey at all. I'm more numb than anything. I think I am getting my waterfoul coaxial, but I want 2 do so carefully.

This status quo has 2 change. Time for some radical honesty with her soon. lovingly. I may send an email to RM after all, ala WAT's guidelines, per things said in the emails that you know about that make it clear that some bubble-bursting was never really done but may be in order on that end.

best regards,
-ol' 2long

2long - love ya man. Please don't communicate with OM. He is never going to help your cause and willonly use anything you do with him against you. RM is beneath you!!! He is unworthy of you talking to him!!!!! F*** him!!!!

Talk to your W, if she can't get the deal straight now, then what the hell are you waiting for? Do what you think is right, it's your life. My advice is to try something new! Plan B, something. Don't tell her to do a damn thing, you act my man... you take control of you with a new strategy (I think you have been in control of you with this strategy also, but it just is not gonna work bro). Shift gears buddy, your stuck in the mud for now!!

Conan.

Are we on Mars yet?

2-L.... I did a weekend turn around car trip 2 Mon2rey and Santa Cruz with my 13 year old D. "Are we there yet?" .... she is 2 old 2 sincerely ask that question, but she did it anyway having fun with my mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

That part of the state is full of triggers for me. I gave my triggers "the finger" and made up my mind 2 enjoy the enormous beauty of the coastal drive, and 2 be "in the moment" with the kid.

My plan was "da bomb". We 2 girls cooked up fun and ate it with gusto! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You own 2day. What 'cha gonna do wid all dem fowl lined up [censored] to beak?

Thanx 2-L for tolerating my email with such grace and charm.

Don't forget .... you own 2day .... make it count.

Pep

Conan, Pepper:

I'm conducting an experiment. Well, not really. I'm just "being the watcher" here. I'm "checking out" my W's behavior (and how I feel about it) since we got back from vacation. I was concerned that her bubbly closeness the last 2ple of days was due 2 her realizing that she had left my computer connected when she and the kids left, and all I had 2 do was hit the back button 2 read her mail. I'm not sure I think so now, because I think the vacation is what she needed and she was happy about that (like SS suggested I do in his email). I'm going 2 keep up this observing for a 2ple of days before I say anything about the emails, because I want HER 2 realize that I love her regardless of what she's doing. In the past, it's possible she didn't think so, because we "argued" just after a discovery like that.

I really like the suggestions you and SS sent me yesterday. I will post draft emails here for feedback as I compose them.

I continue 2 believe that this si2ation is delicate, and needs 2 be handled carefully by me. After all, right or wrong, my W's view of our M and the world and what's appropriate or not is her view. 2 the extent that I can understand where she's coming from, I can put myself in a better position 2 decide our fu2re 2gether, if there is 2 be one. You fine people only hear my side of the story, and whether it's blatantly clear or not that I'm the BS and she's the WS, in every sense of the labels, the one-sidedness that results from this kind of discussion cannot be ignored.

My W has said, many times over the past almost 2 years now, that the worst thing that's happened 2 us and that we're dealing with is the house fire. And when I point out 2 her that for me the fire and all the crap we've been dealing with as a result of this means nothing 2 me in comparison with dealing with her A, she nods or otherwise apparently acknowledges MY view, but doesn't share it. At least not with me.

And though the house sitch is nothing compared 2 healing from the A, it is a big deal. We're probably going 2 have 2 sue our insurance company, and we're probably going 2 have 2 stop contracting work on the house for the next 2ple of years while that goes on. In the interim, then, we're going 2 have 2 do a lot of work on the place ourselves. 2gether. We don't have a lot of cash 2 flow out for things like apartments or hotel rooms, and I frankly don't want 2 get in2 debt over the house or our M. At this point, neither one is particularly valuable 2 me: The house because it's just a building, and the M because it doesn't seem important enough 2 her. We could easily sell the house as-is, because people ask if it's for sale all the time. It's just that cool a house. We could make a lot more, though, if it were completely rebuilt. But on "spare change" that's going 2 take a long time.

In truth, I think the M is a LOT more important 2 her than she's willing 2 admit, especially 2 RM. But, not surprisingly, I'd sure like 2 see her step up 2 the plate, take M seriously, and fight for it even half as hard as I believe I have for the past 18 months.

I still don't think plan B is right for me, and I'll admit that my "plan A" such as it was, has gone on far 2long. It's better 2 think of it as not having done a plan A much of the past 18 months at all, more like a plan 2long or something. Whether it's a good plan or not, it has been what it's been. Here I am now.

♥ ol' 2long

Speaking of living 2day for 2long.

I'm changing my sig line back 2 include a favorite old "Association" song of mine. It's on the album with "Along Comes Mary", "Cherish" and ohers, if I remember correctly, but though it's rather quiet and moody, I always liked it the best.

At the time (mid '60s), I thought it was about spirituality, afterlife stuff and all that. Well, it's not. It ought 2 be a "theme song" for Tolle's book, because it's all about stopping "living in time" and instead living in the now. Lyrics-wise, it's my favorite song in the world right now.

♥2long

2Long.

What do you beleive is the real reason why she still is married to you?

2MCM:

Cool! An easy 2uestion!

The simple answer is: She wants 2 be!

She also wants 2 stay on the fence, and that's harder for her 2 do if she tells RM that our M is peachy,but it's "easier" for her 2 do if she "knows" I don't know the depth of their R at this time. He's been telling her periodically for more than a year now that he doesn't want her 2 leave her family. Guess it's okay for her 2 continue an A with him, in his view, though. On the other hand, he's feeling guilty about something, per something my W said 2 him in one of the emails. I presume it's that it pertains 2 his DV and breakup of his family, or possibly potentially breaking up ours, but I don't know for sure. Doesn't matter.

It's a 2-ways street, though. I have 2 want 2 stay M'd, 2, for this 2 work out. If SH were 2 ask me now "how's your energy level?", like he did last year, I would probably say it's pretty much okay. I've learned a lot of patience in the past 18 months. I've learned a lot about compassion and empathy, 2. But I've also got 2 fish or cut bait, myself, at some point here.

-2long

Here's something 2 think about. Hopefully, this will give you folks somewhat of a better idea why I appear perhaps a little more reluctant than I should, 2 "confront."

I talked 2 a friend of mine on the phone yes2rday. I explained 2 him my thoughts that I don't have 2 do anything immediatly in "response" 2 the emails, and he understands. He was "there", and knows what happens when someone (his W) puts some arbitrary deadline on his meeting her conditions 2 stay M'd, and doesn't adequately communicate them 2 their spouse. When he said, in effect, "huh?", 2 those conditions, it was already 2 late. She had her mind made up and there was nothing he could do. They had been separated for 6 months by that point (no A). She DV'd him within 2 weeks, 2k the cats and dog and half their stuff, and immediately moved all the way across the country. He had 2 put the house on the market and send her half the equity He's only gotten emails from her a few times since. All of them are attempts 2 draw him in2 her blame-shifting arguments. She never did the requisite homework 2 prepare herself for a healthy relationship (she had done the same thing 2 her first H). He never had a chance 2 save his M because they were never on the same page.

-ol' 2long.

Pardon my stupidity ... what does that story have to do with yours? I missed the tie-in.

Pep

Pep:

I want US 2 be on the same page, or at least 2 have a clear view of each other's pages. We don't at this point.

-2long

How are you going to get full view of her page?

How are you going to share full view of your page?

Could this be done with a trained marriage coach present to avoid confusion and misinterpretations?

What's your plan to obtain this worthy goal?

<small>[ July 01, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

2long-

I think I am with Pep. I don't get your plan really. if you want to stay married forever and keep trying different things that is fine with me if you have some happiness in that. However, I just don't really get the logic of where you are at or where you are going. I agree there is no rush in confronting her if you think the tide is turning in your favor, but where is the real evidence of that.

What more can you do to get her on the same page as you? You sure as hell don't want to be on her page.

Conan.

Pep, Con:

good points. I guess I'd like 2 have access 2 her page through radical honesty. I would offer 2 open my book 2 her scrutiny in return, as I have a couple of times in the past. She wasn't interested, though.

As for plan? I would like 2 resume counseling jointly. She won't want 2 spend a lot of money on it, so we'll have 2 go 2 Kaiser. I wasn't impressed with our MC there, but I might see it differently after a year of reflection. I don't think expensive counseling is really expensive if it's any good, so I'll go wherever I think I need 2 go.

-2long

Yeah, I agree with the group here. I don't see anything that radical honesty can hurt. Only help. It should help you tremendously to get your feelings regarding the email and her ongoing interactions with RM. Of course none of us here can predict how she will react, nor can you, but at this juncture, radical honesty seems to be the way to go.

Good luck, you're in my thoughts.

ALS

Hi 2Long:

You are an amazingly strong person. I admire you and your patience.

After following your story and your personal growth, I am left with a question.

Have you seen anything different in your W that leads you to believe she is not waiting until youngest son is out of the nest before leaving (I believe this was a plan of hers or a fear of yours)? I do not mean to upset you. The thought popped into my head.

Peace to you 2Long

Jack

After watching this story for more than a year, I wonder if 2long sees signs of her struggling to get off the fence and he hates to walk away from the fence because he wants to be there when she falls off.

Somehow - knowing 2long a little bit, I don't think he would still be there if he didn't see some signs of the fog leaving. I believe it has to feel different to him now than it did - say a year ago. I don't know all those signs but I know at one time she wouldn't even talk about some things, and I believe now she is beginning to do so. I think that's why 2long is trying to be careful. Because when you think you see change, you don't want to screw it up.

The question everyone seems to be asking is "with continued contact, is there any real improvement going on." I don't think 2long has really addressed this lately. From things he has said, I believe he does see some improvement, but when he gets blatant evidence of contact, it is hard for him to think about anything else.

The two big questions I have asked 2long are:
Can you live with continued contact? and the answer has always been - NO.
and
How long can you go? and that answer has always been - I don't know.

Here's another one:
Is there anything 2long can do to get his W off the fence ON HIS SIDE OF THE FENCE?

I don't think he really wants her off right now if she falls down on the other side of the fence.

2long, has your plan A been long enough, and good enough by now?

I don't know if any of you have ever watched beginning bull riders in the rodeo. You sometimes see them sit on the bull and then they get this look on their face, and they get off and climb out of the chute. Once the gate is open, you just ride, you can't climb out of the chute. I think 2long is still wondering if he is ready to ride the bull.

Really, I don't know, I just think a lot about 2long and why he hasn't done more ( like plan B) when I know it must hurt so badly sometimes.

2long, do you understand your reasons ?

SS