Terr,

Sometimes my heart skips a beat when I see your post resurfacing...because sometimes I am very scared that I am to hard on you...or pushed you one to many times...and while I am NOT entitled to being harsh with you....
I know I am because I really believe that YOU hold so much of the key and control on changing things...

And I believe you give him way more power that he really has or is certainly entitled to.

But you know what Ark? I guess it's that fear factor of all this time passing without change...it becomes harder and harder to ever remember what we were and what we had. I hold on to things in my mind and my heart but he's put them away conveniently. Out of sight, out of mind...

Your fear factor is exactly what paralyzes you...

And I agree with you that nothing will change untill you change some things...

Even though you are in plan b...I think you do some carolkh things...
I really think you need to step up the illusion you are moving on....

I think you politely arrange for him to watch daughter and mysteriously go out....dressed to DIE FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you plant some suspicious thing...travel brochures where he can see them...and if questioned just say..been talking to some people about some travel...bat eyes here...

I think if he's in the house arrange a fake phone call...and talk mysteriously and giddy...and OWE him NO explanation....!!!!!!!!!!

Send yourself flowers....with a mysterious card...I enjoyed talking with you?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ASK him to take daughter over the WEEKEND...GOD forbid...mr. flakey take real responsibility for his daughter....and go away..
call me if it is an emergency....you know the number...otherwise..see you sunday afternoon...then call and be late!!!!!!!!

DAM Terr....my whole extended family is heading to the Georgian bay next month...and we're not going this year...as the two year old is just to little still...but if we were...I'd pick you up on the QEW...and wisk you away..so my family could drive you crazy enough...you'd change anything and everything...just to never have to put up with us/them again...!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And yeah while it is game playing...i think it's time you make some moves that really say...I'm moving on.....
shake and rattle his cage a little...

your plan b is quite modified with so much contact....
so why not...

Really terr...why not..why not pretend that you have acutally found something outside of his hockey schedule...and his work schedule...and his innate ability to trim hedges and arrange china...to let him know you can see the world beyond him....

Do it TERR>>>>do it like nike said...
just do it..
ark

Hi T:

I have to say that CarolH stuff will help.... I really love, can I say it again--- LOVE ... Ark's great suggestion that you..

*I think you politely arrange for him to watch daughter and mysteriously go out....dressed to DIE FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Exactly my thoughts Ark. MY MIL suggested I do the same, and my wh followed me for over 30 minutes in the car until I lost him. I looked awesome when he picked up the kids, and I walked out, locked the door, waved bye, and said have fun to him and got in the car.... it was really quite exciting. Hey it would of been good enough had he not followed me, but even better that he did. I had planned a trip to the grocery store, but got a chase.... and while in the car I turned up the music loud and played with my hair.... h also goes crazy when he sees me talking on my cell phone... in the car... I did a little of that/ pretend style.

I do that after counseling sometimes for real.... I get on my cell phone with one of my best girl friends and it seems to drive him mad, as we drive down the road where we are forced to drive close to each other for a bit...

Let him think you are going out. Get mysterious phone calls when he is at the door... ACT HAPPY- you can do it. Play act if you have to, it actually becomes fun to pretend you are having a great time without him.

Now I can't do the behavior above at all times, but believe me some of it is coming back into play.

My wh now seems to enjoy having a part time family with way less responsibility than he should have.... AM I tempted to dump him lately? YES I AM! I know it is sad after all this work, but gee.... WE DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS!!!!!

I am exhausted tonite so have to go.

Glad you had a pretty good wkend with D and even your H mailed you a nice pic... I would say his love is still there for you... GEE, He might even have to treat you nice to get your attention these days!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This plan A does put us in doormatville for too long sometimes. I am all for the modified plan b/ with carolh/ divorcebuster twists of lime.

I hope you start to go out more with friends, glad to hear you will soon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs to you, keep your chin up.

We all know that cream always rises to the top, and that you are- creme de la creme.

BIG HUGS to you, hug yourself and tell yourself you are wonderful, special and precious daily, because you are!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Honey

Terrified: .... Have I accepted that H loves someone else and it's over for us? No.

However, Plan B does help in many ways. Not to accept but to move forward with less pain.

Orchid: You know Pride can be the OW. Anything that keeps him from his family can parade as the OP. It c/b the OT (other thing). I wonder if he really has an OW. His anger makes everyone want to stay away doncha think?

Terrified: Had a neighbourhood party on Saturday. I haven't attended in two years. Went with H for 10 years. Hated to go but I did for D's sake...most people just said, "It's good to see you again.".

Orchid: IMHO, I think they were happy to see you. You were the one that made them feel good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Terrified: New neighbours asked where my husband was in front of a larger group...I guess because of my ring. I just couldn't mouth the words. After I got up from my chair, my neighbour explained..

Orchid: It is good you had a neighbor that could help. You know there is probably more support for you out there than you realize.

Terrified: But I WENT. They probably missed my H there. Always loved him, the neighbours. He was better than me re:socializing with all of them. Always helpful. Home more than me due to my commute time...I just rode on his coattails..

Orchid: Good, I am glad to see you not holding yourself back. People adjust and won't miss him like you do. Maybe only when they think about it. Whereas you and your daughter live the memory. I am sure you want back the H that was one who made your family happy. His grumpy self now isn't fit for company. In time others will see it also.

Terri, you are doing better than you feel. Don;t be afraid to feel better.

L.

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Hi Terri,
I checked Dr. Laura's website and I didn't see any info for Canada, but here's a link for Real Audio

http://www.drlaura.com/listen/

I like to listen to her, because she's one tough, smart woman, who is a family advocate. Listening to her tends to firm up my own convictions. There are days she's just plain mean to some callers though.

Be warned, she is oddly inconsistant when it comes to adultery.
-FWS are told not to tell, to not "burden" their spouse, suck up the guilt.
-BS are told they are married to a lying cheater and should probably divorce.
-BS/WS are told to stick out the marriage for the children.

Her book 10 Things Couples Do to Mess Up Their Marriage won't ever be on my "recommend" list. But I did like How Could You Do That.

I kind of pick & choose what parts of her advice I agree with! But, part of that process is thinking through the why of agreement/disagreement which I find useful.

If you listen to her, you might find yourself responding more succinctly to your H when forced into those confrontations. But, when he's in your space, respond with grace & dignity, and make the contact end as soon as you can.

Your H still doesn't appear to be truly pursuing a divorce...kinda reminds me of when I initiated and did only part of the work for it. He's not pressing it through.

But since the paperwork exists, I still think you should present him with a lifestyle that corresponds to the divorce, co-parenting, but little contact...and I don't have a problem with Ark's "mysterious" suggestions either. Similar behaviors are listed in Divorce Busting.

Hello all...I'm working from my home office today, watching it pour outside the basement window. It's almost as if I'm "happier" when it rains...don't know why.

Yesterday, I had rushed out to the bank and as I was walking the streets of downtown Toronto, I looked up at the sky and asked God to give me another chance because I'm different now...my marriage can be so much better but I need that CHANCE that only He can give.

Ark, My heart skips a beat everytime the phone rings or when I get replies to my threads...I never perceive anything I receive negatively. Never. Your replies help me to survive each day. Sincerely. I NEED to hear the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you do some carolkh things...
I really think you need to step up the illusion you are moving on....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will attempt to do this...but somehow, I really don't think he cares but my promise is that I will try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ASK him to take daughter over the WEEKEND </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could try to do this but...where would he take her? He doesn't want to do the apartment thing...so it's his mother's???

Whoever you are, Ark..to have a two-year old and help me and others so much...you must be an AMAZING individual in real life...and Georgian Bay is beautiful. One of my favourites...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">to let him know you can see the world beyond him....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm so much closer to being able to REALLY see this than I was...not that I wanted to but I realize that I must see beyond a little in order to portray it.

Just so that you know, I've been buying more Nike "stuff" lately (another coincidence that you mention Nike)...keep me focused, Ark.

Honey, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MY MIL suggested I do the same, and my wh followed me for over 30 minutes in the car until I lost him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great that your MIL suggested it. Wow...I don't think my H would ever follow me. Kind of cool that your H did...great illustration of fence sitting!! Don't these guys get it??? It's either on or off!!! I sincerely wish for you Honey that your H STOPS wasting so much time.

Thank-you for your encouragement and your compliments. I hope you're having a better day today!

Hi Orchid, Sounds like you're doing well. I'm glad. You left me with some good thoughts. One that really hit me was this one:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are doing better than you feel. Don;t be afraid to feel better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm afraid to feel better because if I do, I feel like I'm truly letting go of what was and the hope that goes with it. If I feel good, it's because I'm not thinking of my situation or my H and that throws me for a loop.

Sound strange?

Hi Lor, Thanks for the info on Dr.Laura.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H still doesn't appear to be truly pursuing a divorce...kinda reminds me of when I initiated and did only part of the work for it. He's not pressing it through. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's funny you've noticed that...my lawyer just called me to tell me that nothing had proceeded (she finds this strange on the part of my husband). And now, his lawyer has gone on holidays for two weeks as of July 22nd which he indicated in his reply letter of June 27th.

Thanks to all of you.

--ASK him to take daughter over the WEEKEND I could try to do this but...where would he take her? He doesn't want to do the apartment thing...so it's his mother's???

doesn't want to do the apartment thing

hhhmmmm exactly when did I say I give a rats patootie about what he wants????

I assure you I have very little concern about what he wants....and again you are protecting him from facing his reality of his own creation...

if he really wanted this to be official or over he would set up legal visitation....

IN FACT Terr....I would email him even though in plan b...a simple question about when you and he are going to discuss legal visitation...
after doing a few exercises in "moving on"

terr you know that he is a "good" dad...(abandonment issues aside)...and daughter is always in good care with him...who cares...and yep he probably will run to mommy...

why protect him from what he doesn't want....Has he protected you from what you don't want????

to feel empowered you have to do actions that empower ...no matter how much they SCARE you...

I'm afraid to feel better because if I do, I feel like I'm truly letting go of what was and the hope that goes with it. If I feel good, it's because I'm not thinking of my situation or my H and that throws me for a loop.

Jeepers Terr,...That statement has floored me...i keep reading it over and over and over....

what if you're wrong...which I ofcourse believe with all my being you are...
but
what if you are wrong!!!!!!???????????????

Terr you should let go of what was...
you should not want to go back to what even with reconciliation....
you have learned a lot....
use what you have learned...

you have learned not to take a marriage for granted.
would you really want to go back to being that person again?????

you have learned that you are way way way more stronger than you thought...
would you really want to go back to being someone who had not faced such adversity and really become better for it?????
(I realize some adversity is just plain bad and messes people up...but you've conquered a lot...and I hope you find and see value in it...though a hard lesson learned....)

I think you have let go of a lot of what was...
and in reality even the replaying of good times in your head...your role is a lot different... I bet that you can see and desire yourself sitting out in the sun enjoying an evening with your husband watching you daughter play like you have done in the past...

...but I'd bet a ton of looneys... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> that THAT person..YOU is not the same one that did those things with him...that even in the fantasy in your mind you don't see the old terrified...you can see someone stronger, more aware, and more real sitting beside him...not the old TERR....

you don't want to go back there really...
you want him back with the new you...(yet at this point he doesn't come close to deserving you!!!!!!!!!!!)
that's where you have to focus...looking behind isn't serving want you really really want...

You are better served letting go of what was...and focusing and moving towards what can be...

ARK

F.E.A.R.

Future
Events
Appear
Real

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

F
E
A
R

hummm...that's not what you told me Pepper.

Susan

Hi T,

I am exhausted again tonight/ confused over this saga of mine as well. As wh starts to come closer I get scared I am stupid to even conisder taking him back? Crazy, right?

Anyway, tired of the whole mess, as I know you are.

I think my wh gets reality when he is alone taking care of 2 kids/ who fight at times/ 2 boys.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and when they are angry at him for what he is really doing... and when he feels a fool all alone in his crummy apartment.

Anyway, Tired, tired, tired, so I must go quickly.

I hope your h gets it soon too. Whatever natural consequences of his choices you can help send his way- do. Do not protect him as you would in your marriage, this is up to him now... he is a big boy who must have consequences.

I am just so sorry. It is obvious he does not want a D to me... or why not file?

I say show him you deserve and require respect... he will probably like that and improve. When you take his bad treatment, he gets to dish it out- I know you aren't taking much anymore! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Good for you !

I just hate this emotional abuse. Build yourself up in everyway you can. THis is your time! Do let go of the past, remember the good, and let it go.... The future is yours to behold and you can have a wonderful life, you have years to go as a happy woman, shining.

I am coming to the realiztion that i am a beautiful, smart, wonderful person... despite how my wh berates, or hurts me emotionally, etc.

Taking it, what they dish out, that is- is just not for us anymore! GO T!

I cannot stand this terrible terrible situation, and we get to end it when we want to.... so think about your power in your life... OWN YOUR POWER.

You had a good life before him, and you can have one without him.

I know how it feels to lose my best friend/lover/husband of 20 years, and yes it is very very perplexing.

I look at the evidence of his A, and I get sick to my stomach. My heart drops, my mind spins in circles trying to figure it out. His reasoning? His blame? THe fact that I who loved him so much became the enemy/ogre of his invention... the horrid abusive wife who ruined his happiness????

I say, if we, bs, make them so unhappy, they can go. Sorry we were horrid wives, we can find true love again, and we can love ourselves enough not to take the abuse.

Because we were good wives, we were loving, devoted, and we did not stray when there was trouble. Our wh's ran from reality to fantasy land as an escape from the fact that life is not always a cakewalk... poor babies.

Anyway, sad that someone who you love so much can turn and bite you. ... it reminds me of a dog gone mad! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Focus on YOU and your D.... that is OK. Do not mourn someone who emotionally abuses your love and commitment anymore. If he wants to treat you right and good- OK, if not- bye bye Mr. Abuser.

Hugs and Hope as Always,
Honey

terr..
how was the weekend bash..

did you have fun...
did you enjoy yourself!!?????...

where I come from ...we call this being
nebby...

As southern ladies are stereotypically well steeped in manners and decoorum....

Us northern girls are just down right nebby
to a fine art...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ARK

Miss ya T....how's it going?

Hello everyone and thanks for checking in. Feeling low. Having to push myself. Trying hard to stay focused. I guess it's true about work and keeping your mind busy.

I've taken this week as vacation to do a few things with D. Going up north on Friday for the weekend with friends. Been having a really good week so far in D's eyes with other day trips. Supposed to go to the zoo today...

The party on Saturday was good. I helped out alot which kept me busy and walking around mingling lightly. Slept over. Ark, you'll be proud...my behaviour was dignified and more reflective of the southern belles you describe.

Will confess...screwed up on Plan B yesterday. I'm back on the wagon today. It's because there are no parents involved in caregiving that H makes it harder. Spoke to him too much yesterday. God, I hate myself for doing that!

And one more thing...I called the OW's number while D was sleeping. Why? I guess for torture. Her machine message? Starts off with CIAO then goes into her native language...well, why would she need CIAO unless her Italo-Canadian boyfriend is still in the picture? God, this is sick. One of my favorite words...always use CIAO when I say goodbye...and that's what bugs me. He probably TOLD her to use it.

Okay, I cried my eyes out WHILE D was napping yesterday. I didn't leave a message. Didn't say anything to H.

Just feel rotten because he doesn't miss ME. He threw me and D away for HER over a phone wire. Must have been pretty bad for him to do that...is that my ego?

And what triggered this absolutely irrational behaviour? I asked H if he was happy. Why? I don't know. I was doing so good.

I slipped badly.

Ark, Don't give up on me. Okay? Reality bites, that's all. Hope you had a good weekend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if he really wanted this to be official or over he would set up legal visitation.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He claims it's his apartments that's stopping him from doing this?

Those exercises in moving on? It's time. Will do.

By the way, I'm sitting in a home office HE designed with HIS university diplomas, HIS pictures, his SPORTS posters, etc. Should I take these down?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you should not want to go back to what even with reconciliation....you have learned a lot....use what you have learned... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're so bang on. I am SO different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU is not the same one that did those things with him...that even in the fantasy in your mind you don't see the old terrified...you can see someone stronger, more aware, and more real sitting beside him...not the old TERR....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God Ark, you're uncanny! Exactly what I was thinking...

Pepper, Bang on...

Honey, Are you okay? Hope so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As wh starts to come closer I get scared I am stupid to even consider taking him back? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Normal feelings these are, Honey...it's fear of being hurt again. Please be careful, Honey. Protect yourself well. You deserve more than what he's giving you so don't just settle, Ok?

You're right. I do need to let go of the past in order to move forward.

Thanks for all your encouragement.

Hi Lex, It's good to hear from you...hope you're well.

He claims it's his apartments that's stopping him from doing this?

Tell Mr dragyourfeetinthemudd...he has the month of August to arrange his apartment move or get over his neurosis...cause you want settled established visitation...and he it MIGHT even include every other Friday night..so he better reconsider his ice time... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> there's a bight of reality in the [censored] eh??....

Look at your role in this...he doesn't want to face the reality of his actions...

you don't want to be responsible for assisting him in this out of fear of being blamed for his facing the reality of his actions...

So both of you just just ignore and avoid the very activities that bring reality to HIS choices...

You are really protecting him...
He is protecting himself...
and all is done in the name of protecting your daughter...who is at an age...that the environment of the apartment will not be as huge a monumental issue as it will as she gets older...

Terr I know it hurts you to the core to think of letting her go with him to that apartment...BUT protecting him and yourself from your perceived and real pain...just in the long runs drags the pain and fear out longer....

You have done nothing but bend over to accomodate him

For God sakes the man is waiting for you to "accept" all this pleasantly and be be happy for him?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

INSANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AS IF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The sooner he feels andl lives his reality to his actions closer to the decision he makes...the sooner the reality sets in...

It is the same with children...punish them with consequances that are later and they will have no effect...

Let him take her...and deal with her cries for you...for all the nights you have held her while she cries for him...and i wish no further pain or hurt on daughter...I pray you know that....
but those are things are exactly what you continue to protect him from...

why????????
to avoid being accused of being the
mean one???
the bad guy???
that's impossible you know...

I say give him a month...
pick the last weekend in August..tell him you are going away...with NO details...except cell phone number...and when you will check in with daughter...and let him deal with it.....

By the way, I'm sitting in a home office HE designed with HIS university diplomas, HIS pictures, his SPORTS posters, etc. Should I take these down?

box them mail them..send him a bill for the cost of shipping...
(draw fake beard and mustaches on any hockey player of your choice...blame the kiddie and her friend.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just feel rotten because he doesn't miss ME. He threw me and D away for HER over a phone wire. Must have been pretty bad for him to do that...is that my ego?

hmmmmmmmm how can he miss you if he sees and talks with you every day...he doens't have to miss you...and the fact that he was still interested in you on many levels...speaks differently...

terr that's not your ego...ego's are the strong part that says...look bud..no matter how bad you percieved things to be...none of that justifies your extramarital activities....

you asked if was happy...
what did he say...
cause if he said anything that sounds like a yes...he is lying...
happy people don't treat people the way he does...in fact people that are really happy with their choices become even stranger alien fog heads and attempt to convince others to be happy for them....

all right thats a tough thread...
sorry terr...
but I believe there are so many many things you can be in control of...

ARK

You know Terr...

the thing about protecting your daughter...
(which is really just protecting him)
from environments and opportunities for her to ask questions...and talk about how she feels about all of this...
doesn't make the questions she has go away...
or the feelings inside of her go away...

and in some ways denies her an outlet for her own questions and fear...

and doesn't really alleviate him from his responsibility in being accountable to her on a level on which she can understand and learn to deal with...

I know it hurts and hurts and hurts ...
yet protecting her doesn't really stop any of the hurt does it???

i hope you can wrestle with this on some different levels and perspectives...
we want so bad for our children to be protected from pain...
yet we can't do it forever or always...

oh crap I don't know what i'm trying to say...
just that there is nothing bad or wrong about you seeking truth....rather than protecting...

ARK <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ya know Terri,

My husband was forced to deal with the reality of our upcoming divorce because I made him take the kids in formal visitation, and because I boxed everything up, and made him take it all.

His attitude changed very fast after the first weekend he had to take care of 2 active boys in his 1 bedroom apartment.

What your husband WANTS doesn't matter. You are NOT in plan A, so stop trying to plan A him!!!

He said he wants a divorce. So give him one. That means he is responsible for caring for your daughter OUTSIDE of YOUR home during his visitation.

Let HIM deal with your daughter's pain. He needs to face that too.

((((hugs)))) Terri

Hi T,

I am glad to heae you are out there, getting through this! We will survive!

I agree with the other posters... about letting DD go with dad to the apartment, it would force your h into more of a reality he may not like... not only that .. your D could see the truth about what her Daddy is doing... she can voice and form her own opinion .... about his behavior.

Hugs and Hope, I will keep on cking in with you. Gotta talk to my DS for a bit tonight! YS is with DWSpouse, who is having a bday tonite.

How is this for reality - Sadly even to me, OS, told his dad that he did not want to go with him to his apartment, he does not like it over there DS told dad, and this is dad's bday. They were suppossed to go to dinner and open presents I got for ws from kids and me, and I was left out tonite despite progress b/c ws is mad at me tonight.

So.... ws got told from his 11 yr old son, that he did not want to go with him. That is reality. BOth my son's always want to be with me. My ys who is almost 5 still is too young to see the whole truth and dad and fun!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ,,,, but as he gets older and this goes on, both boys can make up their own mind. I tell them to love their dad, but that they do not have to like what he does always..... it is even ok to hate what dad does.

Hugs and Hope to YOu T.

Honey

Hi T,
Your daugther has been going places alone with her dad for nearly 2 years. I doubt that spending a night(s) alone with him would seem that much different?

She's still at the age (3-4?) where she isn't going to recall a lot about this time in her life. He can sing to her, read to her, cuddle with her. He can parent, other than being being to you in her presence, he sounds like an ok dad.

He should be able to MANAGE. He's an adult, an experienced parent.

Until my H got his house, I did what you've done, let him be with the girls in my house. But, he also took them for trips to his parents and overnight in motels here in town. When H & I had his visitation in my house, we were in agreement about it, but my H wasn't mean, 98% of the time, he'd walk out long before he got too angry to controll himself.

Your H probably could spend his overnights at his parents' house if his apartment is really a dump (but he's bought furniture...a bed, a couch? He can sleep on the couch).

You feel your daughter is safe with him, right? So...trust him and put his time of visitation in his hands under the guise of going along with the divorce.

It is really odd, after this long, that your H doesn't take this initiative. I believe seeing you during these exchanges still meets some of his needs and it somehow works for him.

Terr..
how are you...
how was your weekend up North??
ark

Gotta love ya Ark for caring enough when it matters most...

Hello everyone. Hope all of you are well. Thank-you for your posts.

An update...last week, as mentioned, was vacation for me. Instead of the zoo, ended up at Ontario Place on Wednesday(D, myself and another family)...turned out to be a great time for all. Went for ice cream on the way home...took a detour and imagine...the DQ we stopped at...there was H's first cousin with his son AND turned around...ANOTHER cousin with her daughter! Haven't seen either of them for SO long...hugged them, a little emotional but okay. The first said, "You look great! (almost surprisingly but after a day of sun and fun with kids, I looked happy). We miss you". The second said later, "Saw H at the church with D (Saturday's wedding mass)...just doesn't seem right you're not there. Just want you to know we're thinking of you."

Went up to Sauble Beach early Friday morning with 6 couples and their kids. One of the reasons I needed to go was because of another wedding on Saturday...one of H's sport buddies. However, some of my old friends were going to be there too and I just couldn't deal with it staying close to home. Ended up having a good time (or at least better than expected) at Sauble...missed H but oh well...

H picked up D for a movie Sunday night soon after we arrived and he attempted conversation with no success.

Talked to a mutual friend who was at the wedding and she said she had heard H had JUST started seeing someone from overseas. This infuriated me so I admitted that H left me for another woman and that this relationship started long before he left me. Wrong or right??? I'm sick and tired of looking like the big, bad wife.

Truth comes out when I am confronted. Is that okay?

Monday...H has gone golfing. On Sunday, after the movies, indicates he'd like to take her for a bike ride after golf. I don't want to deal with conversation or banter so I simply say fine. Garage door closes. D starts screaming that she has to tell her dad somthing. Runs to open the front door. He's already started backing out. She SCREAMS for him to come back. He pulls back in and rushes to the front door. Roars at me for LETTING her do this so that all the neighbours can hear. And how was I going to stop her???? She can now open the door by herself. Was I supposed to?

I have a birthday party dinner at 5:00 on Monday for OUR godchild. H is not invited but I say nothing of what my plans are in my email...just that I have plans.

H calls from friend's house after golf (Important to note that this friend isn't especially close to many people...one of those types that sways loyalties but doesn't really have many friends of his own). Several times. D doesn't want to pick up the phone. H calls cell phone. D answers it. H wants D to come to friend's pool instead. Can Mom bring D, he asks D? No, replies Mom. H can pick her up. And then I find out there are wives there too...what was he thinking??

H shows up at 2:30 with friend's son (who we both knew well as a younger child). The nerve...or am I wrong? How could he drive him up to our home?

And as a result...comes home at 5:00 INSTEAD of 4:30.

Ark, Hope you're well. Missed "talking"...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look at your role in this...he doesn't want to face the reality of his actions...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right...I'm so scared to force this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For God sakes the man is waiting for you to "accept" all this pleasantly and be be happy for him?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes, he is and I'm glad you label it insanity. Most times, I question myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> box them mail them..send him a bill for the cost of shipping...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seriously, do you believe I must do this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you asked if was happy... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He replied sarcastically, "Oh yeah, right...REAL HAPPY..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the thing about protecting your daughter...
(which is really just protecting him)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting twist you present when you say this...

Bramble, Hope you are mending well? Thank-you for checking in...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband was forced to deal with the reality of our upcoming divorce because I made him take the kids in formal visitation, and because I boxed everything up, and made him take it all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Had you "accepted" the reality or what it appeared to be at that time? Were you in Plan B?

Hello Honey, Hope you are okay? Haven't heard anything from you on the boards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with the other posters... about letting DD go with dad to the apartment, it would force your h into more of a reality he may not like... not only that .. your D could see the truth about what her Daddy is doing... she can voice and form her own opinion .... about his behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is especially difficult. Worried about her transition...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is reality. BOth my son's always want to be with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow...

Lor, Hope you enjoyed your weekend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your daugther has been going places alone with her dad for nearly 2 years. I doubt that spending a night(s) alone with him would seem that much different? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You would think so BUT I think he's avoiding it or deferring it until he gets a house, he says.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He should be able to MANAGE. He's an adult, an experienced parent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that he's unable to parent in our home, I think he's lost the desire to WANT to manage on his own...but I have complete confidence he could.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H probably could spend his overnights at his parents' house if his apartment is really a dump (but he's bought furniture...a bed, a couch? He can sleep on the couch). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but his parents can't deal with this and his apt isn't a dump. That's what confuses me most...it's okay but it's not D's home. That's what I believe to be his real problem...his daughter's perception of where home is.

Hugs to all.

Hi Terri,
I think it is fine to tell people the OW has been a part of his life for years.

Truth. Reality.

He can get mad, but...then he's mad at reality. What a bummer, man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

I did the same thing, the OW wanted it thought that she & H didn't start seeing each other until we were separated, even though the PA started 4 months earlier...and continued through the times H came home.

I wonder if your H's behavior isn't really draining your lovebank? Everytime he yells at you for something stupid (usually on his part or something that is normal behavior for your D), it's got to wear on you.

I saw the FOW today, again, at a funeral. Not hers unfortunately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (bad Lor!). My H's co-worker's H died--27, motorcycle accident, really sad. FOW & her H didn't go to the interment, or the lunch. When we walked into the sancturary my H's co-workers (which include FOW & her H) were all sitting in a big group, but there was another smaller group on the other side of the aisle and we sat with them.

H & I had walked in holding hands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I remember the first time, post reconciliation, we went to something that involved his co-workers, my H kept his distance from me and it was
disheartening, but still an improvement over the previous 3 years when he wouldn't even invite me. Today he was...himself, and it was nice, though the circumstances were so sad.