I posted this on the "Is it okay to date" thread, but I don't think anyone will notice it there so I'm giving it its own thread.

According to my husband, it is perfectly okay to "date" someone if you work with them. He has dug in his heels and fought me on this for nearly three years now, until I am ready for the nice men with the butterfly nets and the strait-jackets to come and take me away.

I do not know where he got this idea. Probably from his company, which strongly encourages the employees to bond with each other (Teambuilding, you know) -- including single females with their married male bosses. Please don't tell me that companies don't like this. I've seen it first-hand for many years. In a lot of ways, he IS the company, and he was all for this policy.

He insists that his same actions -- driving out alone with a woman for a lunch or a dinner or any other social reason -- would be wrong if he did it on a weekend with someone he doesn't work with. However, it is absolutely a non-negotiable point with him that there's nothing wrong with this if it's somehow connected to your job and the other person is a co-worker.

In his view, the only thing he did wrong was not tell me what he was doing. (This went on for at least a ten-year period. Does he still do it? He says not, but who knows? Not me.)

Yes, you heard him right. His mistake was NOT in getting all mixed up with flirtatious young women who couldn't keep their butts out of his face, or in wasting time with them that he could have spent with his wife. His mistake was ONLY in not sharing with me the details of the fun they had each day, because he should have been honest with me and shown me respect by letting me know what they were doing.

He looked me right in the eye and told me this not 48 hours ago.

Not, "I wish I hadn't done it." Just, "I should have let you know so you wouldn't be in the dark about it."

I don't think I've been unclear about the fact that it's unbearably painful to me that he did this at all -- NOT just that he hid it from me. But he seems utterly incapable of understanding this.

Why can I not make myself understood??? Why is nobody hearing me???

Of course, it does make perfect sense. If we had only done things his way, I could have been sitting home alone each day while he was out with the girls. I could have been looking forward to hearing about how important they all were to each other and how much fun they were having and how much of a difference he was making in their personal lives by riding to their rescue at the drop of a hat.

Gosh, that sounds like a normal healthy marriage, doesn't it? What was I thinking by turning down an offer like that?

Is there any reasoning with someone like this? Does he really not understand, or does he just not want to understand?

I am just about ready to call and have myself committed. I really, really am.

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: psycho_b ]</small>

Holy cow, your H's justification of his interactions with female work colleagues is rediculous.

I am currently reading "Not Just Friends" by Shiley Glass, and she directly addresses how the interactions between work colleagues of the opposite sex can become emotional affairs and even lead to sexual affairs. Check out the book if you get a chance.

I don't know what to suggest you do in the meantime though. I know exactly what it's like to have a H who thinks that it's all fine and dandy to have a close friendship with female work colleagues and spend lots of time with them, and even hours on the phone with them, since they're "just friends". He refused to listen to my concerns about this for years. (Sadly, my resentment over this, along with other factors, led to me thinking, fine then, I will have a friendship with a male colleague then, just like you, but mine eventually turned into a PA.)

As Glass says, if you have to put "just" in front of friends it sounds more like denial than anything else.

Jen

p_b,

I am so sick of this corporate "team building" garbage that I could just scream.

I was reading this article on Hubbynet:

Are you a woman who shares secrets with a male friend? Are you the kind of
man who reviews his weekend plans with a female co-worker? Or do you go out
for drinks with a colleague of the opposite sex?

If you are married and answer yes to any of these questions, then therapist
M. Gary Neuman has a word to describe your behavior: Unfaithful.

"We can't fool ourselves into believing that we can have intimate
relationships at work and still have a great relationship at home," says
Neuman. "My message is that if you want to infuse passion and have a buddy
for the rest of your life, you have to keep that emotional content in your
marriage. Otherwise, it's not going to happen."

Neuman, a Miami Beach psychologist, has raised hackles in the marriage
counseling field with his recently published book, Emotional Infidelity,
(Random House, $24) that decries male-female friendships outside marriage as
a form of adultery.

The funny thing is that while Neuman's views may seem extreme, even his
critics say his central premise - that friendships between members of the
opposite sex can harm marriages - is probably valid.

"It's a concern," says Shirley Glass, an Owings Mills psychologist and
longtime researcher into marital infidelity. "Many love affairs begin just
that way."

Marital infidelity, the sexual kind, is hardly an uncommon phenomenon in
contemporary America. Nor does it show any sign of abating. According to a
1998 survey by the University of Chicago, about 25 percent of married men
and 17 percent of married women in this country admit to having been
unfaithful.

Glass suspects those numbers are too low. Her own research suggests it is
probably closer to 25 percent of women and 40 to 50 percent of men.

When is friendship an infidelity?

How many married men and women might admit to an emotional infidelity?
Probably 55 to 65 percent, she says, and she thinks the numbers are growing.

Her own definition of emotional infidelity is somewhat more cautious than
Newman's, however. Glass thinks a friendship between members of the opposite
sex must have 3 traits to be an infidelity: emotional intimacy that is
greater than in the marriage, sexual tension, and secrecy.

"Friendship becomes a problem when it becomes a replacement for a marriage
or takes place outside a marriage," says Glass.

Hamit Aizen, 38, of Reisterstown says she used to think that other-gender
friends were fine for married couples - but after nine years of marriage she
no longer feels that way. Instead, she puts a greater priority on preserving
intimacy with her husband.

"I don't think I would ever cross the line, but I'm really cautious," says
Aizen, a part-time teacher. "The longer you're married, you sometimes start
looking for other things."

A Baltimore native and married father of five, Neuman, 37, believes society
has generally underestimated how harmful these emotional infidelities can
be. He has counseled too many couples not to have noticed that marriages
suffer when men and women seek intimate relationships outside the home.

Even if the relationship doesn't escalate to sex, it can be debilitating to
the marriage. "If you put the majority of your emotions in the hands of
someone other than your spouse, you're still shortchanging your spouse," he
says.

Consider, he says, the husband who gripes about work with a female co-worker
and then comes home and doesn't really want to repeat his complaints all
over again with his wife. The result? She is isolated from a significant
part of his life.

Or what about the wife who flirts with other men? Will she feel better or
worse about her marriage when she compares their reaction to her husband's
behavior? He may seem much less fun and exciting.

Divided loyalties

In his book, Neuman points to the workplace as Ground Zero for the problem
of emotional infidelity. Research shows it's where the majority of
extramarital affairs get started -
perhaps as high as 73 percent, according to one study.

He sees opportunities for inappropriate behavior behind every lunch, every
trip for drinks after work, and every business trip where men and women are
thrust into
prolonged social contact without their spouses.

Modern "team building" retreats where male and female co-workers climb walls
or rappel down cliffs? Neuman would like to see them come to an immediate
end.

"We have hard and fast decisions to make," he says. "What's the most
meaningful thing in your life? We can't fool ourselves into thinking we can
have these intimate relationships at work and still have a great
relationship at home."

Neuman admits his views are unconventional. But in the three months since
his book hit the stores, the volume of hate mail he's received has surprised
him. Many of those letters are from women who angrily accuse him of
condemning the presence of educated women in the work force and rekindling a
kind of Victorian attitude toward them.

Even Glass thinks he overstates the harmfulness of a friendship. "It's fine
as long as it's not a replacement for marriage. You just have to ask: If you
say or do things you wouldn't want your spouse to see or hear then you need
to take a few steps back," she says.

Nevertheless, Neuman insists he has not overstated the destructiveness - if
only because marriages can be such fragile things that get neglected and too
easily reduced to "kids and bills."

"I'm not the crazy one here," says Neuman, who stirred far less controversy
with his past writings (mostly about how to protect children from the
harmfulness of divorce). "We need new standards."

He points to the Internet as an example of how men and women can have
emotional entanglements without physical contact. He has heard stories of
people who have spent hours on the Web sharing secrets with people they'll
probably never meet - and in the process denying their spouse the same
intimacies.

Marlene Maheu, author of Infidelity on the Internet (Source Books, 2001),
agrees that such relationships can be a "serious disruption" to a marriage.
In an increasingly wired world, e-mail can be a 24/7 presence, its content
witty and provocative, placing no demands on the reader other than to be
read. What spouse can compete with that?

"If you're telling someone your secrets and confiding in them and telling
them what's going on in your real relationship, the other person is in a
position to tell you whatever you want to hear," says Maheu, a San Diego
psychologist.

Susan Townsend, a Towson psychologist, says it is usually the emotional
intimacy that develops in affairs that devastates marriages, not the fact
that one partner has had sex with another. Whether that develops over the
Internet or from direct contact doesn't seem to matter.

"People can end up feeling isolated and lonely in their marriage," says
Townsend, who teaches a course called PAIRS (Practical Application of
Intimate Relationship Skills) to couples who want to improve their
relationship.

Neuman's solution is to curb friendships with the opposite sex. He admits
that not all such relationships are doomed to turn into affairs or even
weaken marriages, but he believes all marriages would be stronger without
them.

"Some people can handle it, yes. For those people who have a good friend and
a good marriage, I can't disagree," he says. "I just say, why not take the
challenge, stop the outside relationship and see if your marriage gets
better?"

That would be fine for Barry Glazer, a 57-year-old lawyer living in Federal
Hill, a student in Townsend's class, who says he's never believed married
men and women should have close friendships outside marriage. Mother Nature,
he says, just doesn't work that way.

"It's way too complicated. I worry it would be open to something more," says
Glazer, who is in a long-term relationship. "Maybe that's not fair, but when
you try to make nature fair, you're banging your head against the wall."

Still, Townsend and other therapists say such friendships are possible when
both parties understand their boundaries. One of the first steps toward
"affair-proofing" your marriage is simply to make sure a couple spends some
time on a weekly basis having a meaningful conversation.

"The more a couple knows each other, the better off they are," she says. "If
you strengthen the bond between the couple, there is not so much temptation
to look elsewhere."

Glass suggests that friendships become a problem when there's some
attraction involved. If you sense that chemistry, she says, that's when it's
time to put the walls up - maybe avoid some social situations that "create
more of a male-female situation."

"A reasonable safeguard is not to put women in burqas and have no contact,"
she says. "Maybe it's to take that person home to dinner with your spouse or
take a few steps back."

Even safer, says Kim Michel, a 39-year-old Timonium resident, is to avoid
friendships with people of the opposite sex. Last fall she enrolled in the
PAIRS course after the breakup of her marriage. The experience has
reinforced her view that marriages can be fragile things and deserve
respect.

"Eventually, there comes a point where the line will be crossed in my
opinion," she says. "I just don't see how there can be a great friendship.
You need to make your husband or your wife your best friend."

10 Rules for Avoiding Emotional Infidelity

1. Keep it all business in the office.

2. Avoid meetings with members of the opposite sex outside the workplace.

3. Meet in groups.

4. Find polite ways of ending personal conversations.

5. Take particular care not to have regular (perhaps daily or even weekly)
conversations about your life outside work.

6. Don't share your personal feelings.

7. Be unflinchingly honest with yourself.

8. Avoid cordial kisses and hugs, or dancing with members of the opposite
sex.

9. Don't drink around the opposite sex.

10. Show your commitment to your spouse daily.

This is the wave gals. And wifey can just get out there and do it herself, or stay home with the kiddies. It makes me want to be sick. This is one extra touchy subject.

And when you go over that list, you do just want to scream. And how often does the companies host such affairs for the workers only. It is so destructive.

Take a perfect marriage and provide this type of outline for team building as they say. See what happens to these marriages over 10 to 15 years. All of the efforts are for their work and to impress each other and the little old spouse is left for the pasture.

I feel angry about this set up something awful.

I remember one time calling H at one of the team building thingies....that families and wives were excluded from....and they were playing volley ball on the beach in bathing suits. Give me a freaking break!!

psycho,

Yeah, your husband is not being a stand-up guy here. It's tough when you're immersed in a culture that makes this seem "right". Is there any way that you could POJA a job change for him?

We don't have that "type" of team-building at our company thankfully. And as a sex-starved man, I have no close female friends at all. That's the way it's gotta be...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What is a company about that encourages the dividing of the spouses to attend over night seminars that probably consist of mostly play time with work ideas. And the work is made into games and playing around with each other. Yes, it is terribly uncomfortable to see the pictures of these people having one hell of a time completely spouseless and drinking alcohol. Having breakfast, lunch and dinner and desert. And more drinks after dinner.

My question is this. How many have had this problem that are here at MB? The trust that once was is slowly eroded as arthritis develops in an aging body. And I wonder how many folks you know from work who are experiencing problem from this, and may or may not feel free to talk about it.

The companies are manipulative, you depend on them to provide you with a job, and they use it to control yourself or spouse who works for them. It seems as if it should be illegal.

Well, its a pretty standard practice in the corporate world to have lunch or travel with coworkers. I sure wouldn't call them "dates." There is nothing romantic about it when I go to lunch with the guy[s].

That being said, someone with a history of infidelity would be NUTS to leave himself open in that way and should avoid situations like that at all costs. I do have lunch with my male coworkers all the time, and its probably not the smartest thing to do either.

now listen, you guys. I am not wearing my asbestos suit today, so go easy on me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[I learned that from committedandlovingit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

How long have you been with that co. Melody?

WFlower, this company for 2.5 years, the last one for 15 years. Why?

How does your spouse feel about social, for the lack of a better word, social affairs at work. After work and any other types of social team building.

And I asked because I think that over time, the staying out with company people and without your spouse ...well did you read all that info. from Hubbeynet? that Star posted. It does make a strain on a marriage that otherwise you would be spending the deposits with the spouse instead.

If neither of you are home well I can see where that would seem to be more palatable. But we are too soon old. And will we wish that we had been improving our marriages instead of work relationships.

I don't know anything about you. And I am not saying good or bad. I see the after work things as the true issues.

<<<I see the after work things as the true issues.>>>

Oh, no, no, no!! See, now you've got to define "after work." If any activity can be justified in any way as being "work-related," no matter where or when it takes place, IT'S OKAY. This included taking our young son to spend a weekend afternoon alone with a female co-worker at her summer house. I was too upset by this to go, but he never considered staying home. Didn't I understand? SHE WAS A CO-WORKER SO THAT MADE IT ALL RIGHT!!!

<<<Well, its a pretty standard practice in the corporate world to have lunch or travel with coworkers. I sure wouldn't call them "dates." There is nothing romantic about it when I go to lunch with the guy[s].>>>

Oh please -- not you too.

Is it "standard practice" for a married man to go out alone with people of the opposite sex when his job will excuse it but NOT require it?

Is it "standard practice" to say nothing to your wife about it?

Is it "standard practice" to take your female co-manager, who can't restrain herself from bending over in front of you in public, out alone for a special private birthday lunch and buy her a gift and make sure your wife knows nothing about it?

Is it "standard practice" to get all involved in your female employees' personal lives and ride to their rescue every time they need help, all the while telling his wife she MUST stay out of his work life because she could hurt his career if she hangs around?

You sound exactly like my husband. He defends to the death every one of these things as being "normal" because the company allows it, and there is no reasoning with him on this. There is nothing more tormenting than knowing there are third parties in your marriage and being forced to accept them.

Is that "standard practice???"

I know better. I trusted him until he humiliated me very, very badly at a wedding reception over a conversation involving his [censored]-wielding co-manager. I trusted him until I saw his work e-mail.

I am being tortured to death with this and forced, forced, forced to accept it because I will be divorced if I don't.

Is that "standard practice?"

Believe it or not, our marriage was terrific in every other way. Our only problem is that I cannot tolerate these women in his life. If I could just put up with them and be content to have him pay the bills and come home to me at the end of the day (whenever that is,) everything would be fine.

If he drops a hammer on my foot at home, he'll be all worried and concerned that it's hurt me, but if he drops the same hammer on my foot at work he will INSIST it couldn't possibly hurt because it happened at work.

That's how his mind works.

Is that "standard practice?"

I have been slamming my head against this concrete wall for years and have gotten nowhere. Sometimes I think I've finally straightened things out and we're on the same page, and then I find out that we're not at all.

How the hell do you reason with someone like this???

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: psycho_b ]</small>

Personally, if you can not trust your husband please do get professional help. Going crazy is upsetting to everyone that you will make contact with. Get someone to guide you.

p_b,

If he is violating your boundaries....you have no one to blame but YOU. I say that because I have had to deal with the same thing and enforce mine in this area. You say that you would be divorced....but really.....what holds you back is fear. If this is not okay, and it's destroying your love for your spouse....the first thing you have to do is tell him. For me it was a deal breaker....I had enough. On top of the infidelity....it was just too much and I didn't ruin his career in any way by negotiating a better deal for my marriage. I don't want anyone badly enough to put up with this kind of blather. My H still has lunch with coworkers....but not alone with a woman. He still goes on fishing trips with clients....but in a group. He still goes to manager's meetings for team building....but with his family. He still meets coworkers after hours...but he invites me to come. We POJA the work stuff just like everything else....and I am very understanding....but I'm not stupid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong>

Is it "standard practice" for a married man to go out alone with people of the opposite sex when his job will excuse it but NOT require it?

Is it "standard practice" to say nothing to your wife about it?

??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">psycho, it is not and should not be "standard practice" for a man with a history of infidelity to do any of those things. There is no justification for it whatsoever. You are perfectly right in your objections and I wouldn't back down a second if I were you.

Hi pb, long time no see. Sorry you're still having to deal with this garbage.

In my opinion you aren't the one in need of men in white coats or being committed. Now your H on the other hand geez. He is wrong and I sympathize with you on not being able to get through to him.

I totally agree with you. Single women and married men - co-workers or not - have no business socializing together and that birthday thing was totally out of control.

Will your H do counseling, with or without you? I think maybe a neutral party telling him his behavior is out of bounds might help.

Anyway, I'm sorry to see you back but it was good to see you (if that makes any sense). Just remember that none of this is your fault and that it's not about you being jealous but about him being involved in inappropriate behavior.

Take care and good luck.

Nov 2001 I accompanied my H on to a weeklong show/conference in Orlando. He presented, had products on display and had appointments setup with customers even before we got there. To stay out of his way I spent the days napping, getting hair done, exploring Sea World, etc. I had a blast just being alone. Most evenings we went out by ourselves… Epcot, Sea World, Disney Village. One evening about 10 of his co-works gathered in the hotel room of his supervisor (A woman in her late 30’s.) We sat around, lot jokes, talked, etc. It was fun. I was the only spouse there. Then one evening they had a casino night set up in a tent outside the hotel. All employees were invited. NO SPOUSES WERE ALLOWED. We even offered to pay for me to attend. They would not hear of it. It was for corporate ‘bonding’. Since I could not go, my H declined. I don’t think the company liked that very much. (The company is a fortune 100 company.)

When I was growing up my dad was in the military and later a diplomat. He took my mom to everything. She was expected to be there. By the time we girls (5 of us) hit our teens, my mom as burnt out on the scene. So my dad always took at least one of us with him as his escort. I loved it.

I do not understand when a company does not include spouses. Seems that if they want bonding they should encourage that the families bond too. One of the things I miss about the military environment is that the service people and their families (the entire command) generally become very closely bonded.

I just do not get it. Anyone who says that it’s ok to date someone because they are a co-worker is just blowing smoke up yours and hoping you’re not bright enough to see through it.

Perhaps I shouldn’t tell this story. I also was very upset over my H’s “teambuilding” activities and I believe for good reason. That, along with excessive time on the job, there was little time for “marriage”.

So once I “attended” part of one of these gathering (but no one knew it). Since I was upset with yet another in a continuing series of similar corporate activities, I booked into the local resort where the company had their conference. Because I was fighting with my H for attending this event when we were scheduled to leave on vacation, he had gone home to an empty house after the daytime portion of the seminar.

Now this was a 2 day seminar, in the town in which we live. The company rented conference rooms and paid for the employees to stay overnight. They had conferences during the day, a dinner at night. I wasn’t expecting what happened next.

I just happened to have a room with a view! A view of the bar’s patio. After their dinner in another part of the hotel, the group headed for the patio and it was drinks for all (around 20 of them in attendance). I think they already had a few by the time they got there from how it sounded. They were loud and rambunctious. Had I been a guest on the patio (which was also a restaurant), I would have been very offended.

I saw very inappropriate behavior, like one married woman sitting in the lap of a married man (not for long and oc course,they were just joking about something). I heard a woman twice yell out across the whole complex something about a “B*** job”. One man was acting really stupid but I won’t mention it here. Perhaps there were only one or two spouses in attendance.

I was appalled. Was this the group my H worked with on a day by day basis? Well, I was already sick of corporate America’s teambuilding by this time. And of course, my H also believed it was part of the job requirements to attend these events. But I think they are destructive to families and the posts here show that there is a lot of concern.

It is big business to facilitate company teambuilding programs. And bonding is one of the main reasons for conducting them. They also make use of the laws of attraction because that brings people together. If you don’t believe me, do a google. No wonder co-workers are the number one affair partner! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I suppose I could have attended this gathering with my H but the behavior of his co-workers made me sick so I was glad that I wasn't "there" (little do they know, hehe). However, there were other events where spouses weren’t allowed. I now go on overnight business trips but I’m usually the only spouse.

He's right... ONLY if and ONLY if the following condition is met: Someone of the same sex (Male) goes with him out to the 'lunch' or whatever business function is.
And what's wrong with this lady(s) finding FEMALE co-workers to do their business dealings with? This sounds awful fishy to me. And with the SEXUAL HARASSMENT atmosphere the way it is, he had definitely better watch out! Better safe than sorry. I worked in offices and other jobs for many years and for the life of me, I never heard any crapola like he's spouting to you. Sounds like BS to me...
You are NOT crazy, either - you're just plain common sense!
Harold