Tonight,MB friends out there somewhere, I feel the need to offload. My story is below, there is too much and not enough to add,nothing that will help make sense of this whole sorry story.

So, what's happened to bring me out of my bed at half past midnight to write this?

Nothing. Just.....nothing. We've been struggling on, trying to recover our relationship-I've been having IC with a very good psychotherapist, H has not had any counselling, and doesn't talk to anyone.

We've made the effort to have an evening out every week, try and spend more time as a family, go out more with our girls....H is still at home, no contact with OW-that I know of- since Feb, apart from an email she sent him 2 weeks ago, informing him and 20 others of her new work email. He volunteered this, and also that he had deleted it.

We've had 3 nights away over 4 weeks, lovely times, but each time has had a few fraught moments-they're almost becoming familiar.But they blow over, nothing new, nothing changes.

So, there we are. Good, some might say, and sometimes I might say! So why tonight am I breaking my heart downstairs whilst he sleeps upstairs?

Because it's not enough. Purely, simply, that. I don't think what he can give me is enough.Oh, don't mistake me,I do love him-but try as I might I can't get through to see what I need to see to be able to heal. I wish I could see remorse, real heartfelt remorse. I wish he would see my tears and show me that he can feel the hurt he caused me. I need more affection from him-I need to see that he cares about me, loves me, that he cares that I still love him despite everything and all the tears and lies. Am i asking too much? He doesn't want to leave I know-I think I ground him. Sure, he could manage if I left him. But underneath that bold, funny attractive, clever high achiever is man who is scared that if he pulls apart the onion he'll be exposed as a failure.......

I don't know where it will go. It's not a Plan B sitution...though if I found out that his A was reignited or ongoing I woulld steel myself to throw him out. And I think that would be it-after all , fog notwithstanding, it's 14 months since D Day#1. There's fog, and theres deliberate lies, callous, cheating serious hard lies. Who could live with that and retain self esteem?

I hope that's not my fate.

But I just don't know. He's attempting to rebuild but keeps forgetting the mortar so the house isn't solid.....

Thanks for listening.

Deluded

Deluded,

Sorry to hear you are still feeling in the dumps about this but it is truly understandable.

What does your H think needs to be done to give you closure? What do you think needs to be done to give you closure? How different are both lists?

L.

Hello Orchid and good Evening.

I don;t know what H would say....he said recently that I have to trust him or there is no future for us. I agreed. And we left it at that.

For me? I think I need to see that he FEELS something-I want to know what he feels about me, about our marriage, about the A and what it represented to him. I want to know that he doesn't want to lose me, that he knows that were I a different woman, we might be divorced by now....I want him to show me that he wants me to forgive... he's never asked me to do that you know?

He is so difficult to read-and yet he hasn't changed all that mch since we married really....guess it's just the goalposts have moved. I want him to prove something that I took for granted because thats what you do whan you marry someone isn't it-believe that he/she loves you...?

Deluded

Well Deluded,

He wants you to trust him.....with what? Mine tried to do the same and I just couldn't. Told him there's the door because trust in him was something he had to earn, not me. I trust me.

Ask your H: "H, do you trust me?"

Listen to his response. If he hestitates, then you better wonder why. Practice that 'hurt' look, look like you are in deep thought. Make him wonder what you are thinking or doing. Move his grey cells without lifting a finger (not even the middle one - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

L.

Yes Orchid, I think your suggestion would work-H becomes at his most attentive and helpful after I surprise him-do something unexpected, make decisions he would expect me to dither over...it makes him think.And, I think, makes him less secure, less sure of me....food for thought.And thanks!

Things seems brighter here today and actually H has been really loving and thoughtful without me having to say a thing.

Guess I'm getting somewhere after all!

Deluded

"I feel the need to offload."

In recovery, you offload with your spouse present.

"Nothing new. Nothing changes."

Start by changing YOURSELF.

"So why tonight am I breaking my heart downstairs whilst he sleeps upstairs?"

Because you have not changed.

"I wish he could see my tears and show me that he can feel the hurt he caused me."

Wake him up! He can't see your tears from his sleep. He can't "feel your hurt", he should be invited to watch as you feel your hurt. Then he will feel his own kind of hurt.

"The house isn't solid."

How can you be more solid in your house?

"He said recently that I have to trust him or there is no future for us. I agreed. And we left it at that."

You are dishonest with your husband. "I agreed." He now is left with the impression that marital recovery is going along just fine as long as YOU trust him. "And we left it at that."

Why did you not speak up to explain YOUR needs for recovery?>>> Before you answer this question, I feel I should warn you. It's a trick question. If you answer in any way that describes what you anticipate will be your husband's reaction, and that is the "why" of why you don't speak up .... you're automatically wrong. (** ONE exception, he's crazy or dangerous)

To be valid, your answer as to "why" you don't speak up and show your husband how you're hurting ..... the answer has to be about you.

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

DELUDED:

Don't you think your FWS could be going through withdrawal? When you are being honest, as Pepper suggests, maybe you should ask him about that. Whether or not he misses her or not. Sounds like you mignt not have been ready for him to come home. I know if and when my WS wants to reconcile I don't think I can't let him back easily this time. As Orchid says, he will have to earn a reconciliation.

Try to look at the positive side. At least it seems like he is maintaining NC. Some of us were absolutely alone last nignt.

Take Care,

Deluded,

Good to help if I can. Here's a point I learned.....the WS have mood swings. Worse than a woman that has bad PMS.

In our case, PBR (OW) probably has PMS real bad. Eventually I learned to predict her heights of craziness and used that info to protect me and scare the WS.

So when the WS came home, recovery was hard because those raging somethings had done things to the WS' mind. I used to get blamed whether or not I was involved.

I learned to put my foot down on that one. Was the WS dyfunctional, moody and just plain stupid? Yes. Did he know it? Yes. Was he going to do something about it on his own? Hm.... he tried but it often seemed he just couldn't.

Here's where I helped. It was hard and a gamble but I didn't feel I had to many other options. I could have him committed or send him back to OW. I tried the later and arrrgh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , he kept coming back - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So I opted for finding a time when the WS least expected it and let him know a few things. I gently asked for his attention because 'something' was bothering me. Remember he knew he was out of balance. So when I said 'something', he suspected it was about him but not sure. With that, he lent me his ear. I grabbed ahold of it and gently started tugging <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

It went something like this (I did this more than once):

BS: Do you have a few minutes?

WS: what?

BS: I don't feel well and there is something I want to tell you.

WS: what?

BS: Since my stomach is upset, I may need to run to the bathroom so I need to make this short but it is important for you.

WS: Ok what?

BS: First, I need to have your full attention, no fiddling with other stuff, ok? (give look of agony).

WS: Ok, what is it?

(see now I have his attention)

BS: Your interludes of anger give me great pain. (clutch stomach). It is not healthy for me to take unneccessary pain. So howz about if we come to an agreement? (pause and just look)

WS: Well I don't know, what?

BS: I have noticed that when OW got angry or had a fight with you, she used to somehow give her anger to me. I am not the one who had the A and I don't need to have her anger (note the word need vs want).

WS: like how?

BS: Like those crazy e-mails, hang up phone calls, her pyschotic messages she would leave while speaking in the 3rd person.....it sure seems a bit nutty you know.

WS: You think so? What do your MB friends think?

BS: Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I asked a few of them along with other people so I could a clearer mindset and well......they all pretty much thought those actions were nutty....to say the least.

WS: Yea, looks that way.

BS: Yea.... well I think her raging hormones rubbed off a bit on you and well....it is not healthy for me when your anger is thrown on me irregardless of what I may or may not have done.

So I have a deal for you...... (hang on hon, I have to go to the bathroom - exited and returned - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

WS: you ok?

BS: Hm.... just a bit, still feel a bit weak. Let me sit down (let self down slowly - sat for a few seconds with stillness in the air - mini drama here..... but I was weak, take a few deep breathes and just sat a bit).

WS tries to get up but sees me weak so he sits back down.

Ws: What's the deal?

BS: Ummmm..... the deal is when you get angry, I agree to take your anger when it pertains to me. Only to me. I will to be honest with you about what I do and will take blame, your yelling and anything as long as you don't break the law to do so. But you keep the anger on stuff that does not pertain to me. Like when you fight with OW, upset at work, a driver cuts you off, a bill, etc. One exception, if you are upset at our child, let me know....don't take it out on him and you usually don't so that is good. It also showed me that you can be selective in placing your anger.....so please, keep it when it doesn't pertain to me because I can no longer be your blame pillow.....it just hurts tooo much.

Ws: I'll try.

BS: U need to do better than that hon..... my health is involved.

Ws: You're right.

BS: Thanks. I really promise to NOT deliberately do things to make you angry but sometimes we all slip right? Well if you work hard at it, I will also. Not fair the burden be carried only by one of us.

NOTE: This was what I was already doing so no major changes on my part. Now it was more out in the open and he knew it.

Was this a mind playing drama event? Yes it was. Was it staged? Initially no. I truly was sick. Remember, the WS' life is filled with drama so much that they often mix up reality and drama. I used that piece of info to give him more drama.

I am not sure about the WSW but this probably would work on WSH better.

This eventually led me to go into other subjects. I learned that giving him some of my pain, sharing with him some of my hurt/sorrow was healthy for me. Maybe not him 100% but for me. When I started doing that, we both started healing. This worked sooo well, I started doing this same tactic at work. U know what? It worked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

On the other hand, I had to keep my word. I was perdiocally accused of stupid stuff I didn't do. At those times, I would gently remind him of it and if that didn't work a few times, it got a bit more 'pointed'. LOL!!!

I practiced my sad, hurt look.....talked to the wall a few times. Let him know I had feelings to without dumping it all on him. Periodically asked him how he was doing and listened when he talked.

A few times, I showed him his treatment back to him. He sure didn't like it and I told him that is how he appears to me and if he didn't like how if felt, then don't give that kind of treatment to me. That was another lesson.

Throughout it I was loving yet stern. I couldn't afford to let my guard down and a few times, I pulled plan B out of my pocket.

Right now? Well offically, PBR hasn't made any known contact since March 2003. Seems recent but her last contactd was telling him off, their last real contact (w/A feelings) was sometime last year).

As for as the WS? Well he has worked on restoring his H title. It has been given him on a probabtionary basis (I keep plan B in my back pocket). It is a trust thing. I don't let him use that excuse about him not trusting me crap because I gently remind him that he's right: Orchid does not trust a WS (reverse babble right back at him!).

H now lets me know what he is doing, he asks how I can doing/feeling. He asks my opinion on stuff (this was an issue for him) and we make decisions together now better than before.

Do I still use my look/talk to the wall/sick tactic? Not as much. Unfortunately I still do get sick over many other things so he does see me suffer. I used to cover over my sufferings before, but no more. I learned it was not healthy for me to pretend I could do it all.

Hope this helps.

L.

Thanks,Mimi,Pepperband and Orchid-quite a lot of food for thought here so I will sleep on it and post in the next day or so-but thanks again...

Deluded