<small>[ August 08, 2003, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

Welcome to MB,

Your story is quite common here but that doesn't lessen the pain. I am sorry you and your children are having to suffer so.

Dr Harley has tools here to help us. Please review the contents of the concepts section. Books like Surviving an Affair, His needs/Her needs. Both are by Dr W Harley. Another book I found helpful was Love must be Tough by Dr James Dobson.

Reading helps. Remember that educating your H is not helpful yet. Also learning how you may be enabling his A and learn how to stop will help you heal so that when he comes back you will have the strenght to work with it or know how to tell him to move on.

Let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

Thank you for your kind words. I have read Dr. Harley books and here at this site for awhile now. I will go get the other book. I will say it has taken everthing for me to hold my head up high for my children. Thank you for your time.

Dear NN,

Good to hear you read some of the info. As you probably have read, there is no logic to why he is treating his family bad? No good excuse.

Reality is that he is being a bad H and parent. FAct is that you and your children are being hurt with this whole ordeal.

Here you have the opportunity to share your thoughts, questions, anger and concerns with many who have experienced similar things. I am sure you already know this. Please post more and let's see how we can help.

I advocate praying for a clear mind and a calm heart. Learning patience is a benefit.

Working to improve yourself will put you in a good position to be able to help your children and eventually your H.

Know that your support can come from many areas, including your children. Reassure them of your love and that you will not leave them. Let them express their feelings and if they want to vent or share a thought with their dad, let them. Don't shield their pain from him. He needs to know.

My son at 6 years old wrote his feelings to his dad in a 4 sentence letter. Those words did more than 2 months of my talking and crying.

L.

Although every situation is unique, it looks to me like he is having his cake and eating it, too, regardless of how much it hurts you and the children.

It looks like you are carrying on this level of contact and closeness in order to preserve some semblance of family life for the sake of your children. I think this approach prevents any reconciliation and is, in fact, more damaging to the children than you think - they are silent (sometimes not silent) witnesses to your intense pain and every time you "pretend" you are still a family, they are confused by the lie behind that - your son is right - he doesn't have a daddy anymore, not a daddy the way he thought a daddy was supposed to be - a daddy who lived with his mom, took care of the family, was there when he needed him, was there to have fun with, there to ask the questions he needed to ask when they came into his head, there to model himself on. What does he have now? Someone who says he is his daddy and he still loves him, still hugs him and plays with him, but who abandoned his mother and leaves him, every time he leaves his mother and goes home to another lady. Right now, if your son only sees his father in the family home, his R with his father is dependent on his father coming to the family home, so when daddy goes away, he no longer has a father. Unless you allow your son to have a R with his father outside the family home, you are limiting his R with his dad, and weakening it. So by trying to maintain your "family" you could actually be weakening your son's R with his father.

My parents divorced when I was 12. I have often thought about that pain of my father leaving us - and thought, what is it that parents tell their children about love? When children ask "Why am I here? Why did you have me?", parents often say "Daddy and I loved each other so much, we wanted to have you." Children naturally feel a sense that their very existence is the result of their parents love for each other. Parents who love their children often tell them that they will always love them, no matter what happens. For the child, this means natural disaster, changes of circumstances, etc - children never think that "no matter what happens" could mean "mommy and daddy might someday not love each other anymore" - mommy and daddy could die, they know that and fear that, but they do not think "mommy and daddy might someday not love each other any more". That is inconceivable. So when it happens, its a terrible unforseen shock. And while they try to digest this, it goes back to their own origins - they think "If mommy and daddy don't love each other now, when once they loved each other so much that they made me, then maybe that means one day, they might not love me anymore, or one day they might not want me." Children never say this, but I know from my own experience that they think this, without articulating it, afraid to articulate it. Parents who separate lead their children to the abyss and ask them to sit on the edge and look in.

I know this is hard to read, and I am not trying to make you feel worse. I was a child of divorce, and last year, I asked my own husband to leave, even knowing what the damage could be to my boys. But my husband stayed, when I made it clear to him that unless he ended his (2nd) EA and got help, he would have to go, and I meant it. Since then, we have been through Hell, but we are finally recovering our marriage. One of the things I made clear to him was that we would not play happy families if he left. He would see the boys on his own - I would never deny him access to his sons (whom he adores) and I was willing to share custody. But he would see them on his own turf and make a new life with them - he has a strong relationship with them, and he would be able to build his new life with them as a part of it. But what he would lose completely would be me. I would not be his friend, and there would be no family life continuing within the family home, with him coming in and out, to enjoy roast lunch on Sunday and a charade of what once meant everything to us - our family. If he could not make a go of it with me, I did not want to see him, or speak to him anymore - it would be too painful for me, and also (I didn't tell him this) I was well aware that I would be used - he would continue to talk to me about his problems when it was convenient for him, while another woman got all the cream. Forget it. IF he wanted a divorce he could have one, but that would be the cost.

I am convinced that while this would have been extremely punishing for the children initially, in time, it would have been better. I lived through the former way of doing things in my own childhood and I was determined that I would not go through what my mother experienced - hanging on to hope forever and a day, desperately trying to preserve some sense of a family, trying to keep the OW from being a part of our lives, trying to preserve some kind of R with my dad. My mother was dealing with a very pushy OW and was trying to give us some space to see our dad without the OW always there. But in doing this, she exposed us to her own pain - she made it impossible for herself to heal and go on - I lived with her constant depression, and her need to talk to someone. I never saw my mother fulfill all the wonderful potential she had, or receive love for being who she was, because she was perpetually dealing with my father's affair, even after they divorced. Every time he came into the house, her inadequacy was thrown in her face. I would have been happier if I could have seen her recover and go on with her life. My R with my dad survived and is excellent to this day - he helped me a great deal when my H was going haywire - talking me down, advising me on strategies, since he had been on the other side at that age. I think my R with my dad would have survived even had my mother taken a different tack, because HE was determined to maintain his R as a father. That is really the key. I knew this, and I had confidence that my H would be the same with our boys, even if he lost his R with me.

At first, my H reacted angrily and said that I was being totally selfish, that I was blackmailing him, that I was having no thought as to how that would affect the boys, that I was holding their happiness hostage to my own, but I think he took me seriously, and slowly, we have rebuilt our R to something that is now starting to mean happiness for both of us, and our children are now doing well again, as well.

Please think about these things and consider whether or not you need to change the way you are dealing with this separation. If you go on the way you are, he may never come home, as he never faces the consequences of his affair - he has not lost you, or his family life - he sounds like a good father, but he ought to be able to be a good father in all circumstances, not just on home turf, with familiar family and friends. Going on the way you are going is no challenge to him so there is no reason for him to change. It is you who has to see where you can make any changes in order for there to be any movement here.

I'm sorry if some of what I said is hard to read - I know you are in pain, and I feel for you and your children. A lot of people on this forum have been or are now, right where you are, and I am sure that if you continue to post, you will receive some wonderful advice and emotional support through the bad days and bad experiences. I did, and I am positive that being here helped me change in a way that put my marriage back on track. Please know that we do care, as we have been there.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Thank you for your time Lady in Red. Do you all think I need to go to Plan B? I need to do something. Before it is to late.You know we never got to be together.We never got to be us. A friend of mine brought this to my attention the other day. It was never just he and I till our honeymoon, we had such a great time we stayed two more day then planned.I don't know I am just running everthing through my brain <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Please tell me what you think I should do.

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

You may get many opinions on here, and sometimes differing (that's what's so great though).

When I read your first post I was thinking that Plan B may be appropriate, but it's up to you. Have you been Plan Aing enough? Have you been fulfilling those ENs? By continuing the "happy Family" are you giving him enough of what he needs that the OW doesn't have to fulfill many needs to make him happy? What if it were up to her to fulfill ALL his needs? DO youthink she could?

Plan B is hard. It is hard on him, and it is hard on you. Are you ready? You both seem like you have a bond, a connection that is strong. What about money? He's already living somewhere else, so that is easy. Is all his stuff gone? Can you begin to box up more stuff and give it to him as he comes over (a warning that you're planning something). Or I've read Plan B should be a shock.

Has he talked divorce? Or does he think he can ride this fling out and then come home?

Hello Nos2Nos -- I haven't posted much recently, but your post really pulled at my heartstrings.

While I was not blessed with my own children, that is about the only difference in our stories.

You have gotten some very good counsel from Orchid and LIR. The only thing I wanted to add is that you need to seriously think about plan B right now. This cake-eating has gone on too long and it appears to be hurting you and your children the most.

I too still have a strong connection to my WH and let the cake-eating go on inadvertently. WH has been out of our house since February 2002. He has been back and forth with the OW. I went to plan B in October 2002 after D-Day #2 and mistakenly let this man back in my life last spring a little bit (not good plan B) to refinance our house and then fully back in when my father died in May. While his support was great during that awful time, it ultimately hurt me worse.

Plan B is for YOU. I can tell you from my own experience that life is in fact better not having contact than the quasi-contact I had and that you describe in your post. You are enabling his A by letting him come home and play happy family. I wish I could remember the names of the other women on this board that have been through the same -- Terrified posts come to mind, but I can't think of others.

I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation and can completely understand why you have tried to hold it together for you and for your children. More than anything I wanted you to know that my heart goes out to you and that you really should read Love Must be Tough and if you can afford it, phone counseling with the Harleys. It helped me make a decision to go to plan B.

I read your story and saw a lot of myself in it except there is no OW....My H and I have remained best friends through our separation and has always had a key to my house, done things together with our friends, been invited to dinner...Now I am questioning that, have I made this separation too easy for him?? He is on his own at his choosing-even though he has his own hurt (go in under Just Found Out-can't get peace of mind-his name is zachsdad), but he still chooses to live in this hole and I am always there. I guess I have always hoped that if he has those good memories constantly, he will come home, but now on the other hand, he has never really had a chance to miss all this...SO I am no further ahead than you except that i am not having to deal with someone else in the picture. I am not sure how i would react then....I hope you figure it out...

PS, my opinion is that since he does have the OW, he should not be able to enjoy parts of you...

Take care,

Thank you all. I have been keeping so much inside of me.

.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

When all is said and done, he is being inconsiderate. It seems like such a mild word, but the reality is that he has chosen to meet his own needs at your expense. Why are you putting up with this? The A is about him. Your willingness to put up with it is about you. Look at other options.

no2,

Here are my concerns...here is my advice...take what you need...

My greatest concern is YOUR participation in avoiding conflict...

How does one plan a whole forth of july party with friends...and not question why he would be invited and why he would be there...and where exactly is it that he sleeps on the third and fifth of july???

This is not to bash to or blame you..but huge huge huge red flags go off in my head when you YOU avoid asking obvious deep rooted questions that have monsterous effects on you and your children...

He is engaging in bad bad behavior...and yet family and friend gather for a picinic as IF all is well and OK>...

Unfortunately it is as if he has your stamp of approval...

BUT (hate those the but's)...the truth is that your participation...ie silent consent may be just as damaging as his own behavior to your recovery.

I think you got one of those big elephants just a sitting in your living room...and no one mentions it all....

consent is often given in silence....perceived or reality....it can back fire hard on YOU...

I think you need to find control...that while his behavior is heartbreaking your acceptance is also....but you can't change him...change YOU...

this type of communication or lack there of is exactly what dooms or makes reconcilliation even harder...this is the exact communication style that kills the souls of marriage....and must change....
greatest fear is that you let him move back in...and he would have every "right" for you not to ever discuss or say a peep about things...since that was the status quo all along...yikes yikes yikes...

Sooooo
I suggest you taking control of communication on your end...meaning not that you become some confrontational power struggling whacko... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(that's much more like me any ways... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )
BUT that you start to think of and set some serious boundaries on behaviors you find unacceptable...

and though it will sound like game playing...it is actually giving pieces of his reality of his choices...some are not as pleasant as a bar-b with the family...

why not try some 180's...

when he comes over on wednesday..be happy happy to see him..then scoot yourself out the door...looking fabulous...NO explanation..gotta go dear..running late...be back in a few...enjoy the kids....gone out the door..leave him wondering....and go sit at barnes and nobles even if it kills you....

also what about asking him over on SATURDAY gasp!!! not his chosen convieniant SUNDAY to babysit while you "have plans....."....

I gotta find the post on 180's and divorce bustings....and read/find carols post on discovery I will look later this am at work...and bumb it up...
she to had a cake eater extreme...and played herself out of his chaos and into recovery....

I will check back in....
why not marriage counseling and invite him to go with you...
you have children with this man...for their sake you have got to come to some area of strength that you realize that the truth is not as scarey as the unknown...you fear him leaving yet he as been gone a year...I bet in the past year you have conquered fears and thoughts you never thought you would have or could have...

truth does set us free...it is better than the unknown...

much strength to you...
sorry for the ramble it's way to early on a sat am..and not enough coffee yet...
ARK

Cakewalker is what he is! LadyInRed hit the nail on the head, and I agree with her 100 percent. He is never going to face the consequences of his affair and it's still going on - as his conscience (does he even have one by now?) is 'seared with a hot iron'.
JMHO.
Harold

I think you have received some very good advice here - ark has some wonderful suggestions on 180's - the thing is, he is SOOO comfortable with this right now, he can even breeze into your kitchen and pat your a** as he walks by! Now, my H does that to me, too - it means he loves me - but he only gets to pat my a** if he is in a relationship of mutual respect with me. Its a liberty he takes because we are committed to each other.

It looks to me - from his reaction when you talked about love (rolling eyes), and that pat on the b***, that he is still attracted to you, that there is still affection there, and that he now has a more realistic view of 'romance'. He might just be wondering how he could come home - you won't know unless you ask him. You might want to try to find a way to ask him what he thinks he would need in order for you both to be able to try again.

So if that's true (that he still has affection for you), like ark said, make him wonder what you're up to. Dress up to look like you're going out when you know he's coming over to see the kids, and then GO - don't hang around waiting to serve lunch! Go out with a friend - don't tell him who or where or what, just say you know he comes to see the kids, so you didn't think it would make any difference if you were here or not. Set the cat among the pigeons for heaven's sake, after all, you are still his WIFE - I wonder how he would react if he thought the boot was on the other foot?

I think, also, that I have read here, that the best time to do plan B is when you know that you have done a great plan A, you get them to acknowledge that you have worked on yourself and made the changes they needed from you, and you plan B when it is clear to them exactly what they will be missing. Plan B is less effective if you cease contact after a screaming row, in other words. If you think you have done a good plan A, and he still won't end his affair, then it might be time to plan B. But first, you would need to ask yourself what your plan A consisted of - and how effective have you been? Who was it here who said if you FEEL like a doormat in plan A, you are doing a good job - somewhere there is a great thread called "The Misapplication of Plan A" - I don't know how to make links, since I have a MAC, maybe someone else knows where to find that one? That would be good to read.

Also, another thing - you said the OW has never met your kids, or had them over to their "home" - as long as she keeps them at arms length like this, she never has to confront them and what she has done to their lives, and the R between her and your WH is never put under any direct strain because of the presence of his kids. In other words, you are actually PROTECTING THEIR R from reality. Is that what you really want to do?

I really feel for you. I can imagine what you are going through.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Ok my computer angles. I here you and I will do. Let me learn the 180's. The first one will be this Friday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I will do what you said. I think you guys think I have been not trying some of these things but I have. Not many but some.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

Just checking in. I did good today. Feeling a little empty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

(muchos gracious to coffee man for carrying the link)

BUT BUT BUT...
I think you have been silent about some of this long enough...

I don't have a clear picture on this...he lives with the OW yet comes and picinics with family and friends...
does everyone know about this..and NO ONE says anything...
does everyone pretend all is well with you two?

Is it like a dream world...very hard for me to visualize...and while I am not suggesting powerstruggling and argueing...
my question is what exactly has been your stance...

any legal protection on your part...perhaps you should...good dose of reality there...
any movement for visitation....with stipulations about the no third party involvement...

what are YOU afraid of..
afraid he will move out....already did that...
afraid he will what????????????????????
cause I think you have probably faced a lot of your fears already..and should look at how strong you really are...

any talks about the real effects of this on his children...HIS EFFECTS???

Tell him you needs to come sunday...to watch HIS kids as you have PLANS!!!!!!!!!

plan a trip to the water park without him...definately...

ark

Thank you ARK and Coffee Man.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>