My H and I have been separated for 10 mos due to his guilt over an A, throughout this time we have remained best friends, of course with me continually hoping we would be back together. In April, we started seeing each other again, but made a few mistakes by not setting boundaries etc. About 2 mos into it, he wanted to back off, at first the reasons were not clear but in this past month I have come to understand it is mainly his guilt over what he did, and afraid he will screw up again. The fact that he cannot look himself in the mirror or me in the face blah blah blah....

I have stood by him, he has made "attempts" at counselling and reading SAA, he even went so far as to post here last week (under Just Found Out-zachsdad- his thread is "can't get peace of mind"), but he is not even responding to the threads, he said that he has read them though...He told me today that he was going to respond last night but ended up going to bed and when we spoke today, he said that he was actually on the website. But then I go on tonight and there is nothing. He doesn't want a divorce but he needs to clear himself in order to move forward with him and I....

Basically my question is this, when do I realize that he is possibly giving me false thoughts, making it seem like he is trying..I will admit I am somewhat obsessive when it comes to things and need to see action..Because I am not, I am prone LB'ing to getting some reaction....Is it safe to assume that he is just yanking my chain so I won't take that final step yet...I guess no one can see inside his mind, but maybe someone can help me figure out why he is so distant one minute and the next he appearing to make some progress...I am fed up but not ready to take things to the next level with a D, on the other hand, he is not taking any steps forward so why shouldn't I go for a D???

Does this make sense....
D

<small>[ July 19, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

Wow. I guess I am stunned at the cruelty of your spouse, zach'smom. First he commits the greatest betrayal a spouse can commit and then he further punishes you because of his "guilt." What an extraordinary price you have paid for his misbehavior.

I would wonder about the sincerity of his "guilt" when his solution is not to make it up to you and you child, but to punish you further. The actions don't match his words.

I don't know what the answer is, but I have to wonder if this is all fog talk from a WS who is still in contact with the OP? Could that be the case?

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

The more I think about it, the more I think you have been in Plan A too long. Being in Plan A too long can be very harmful. I would suggest moving to Plan B. He seems to just be lingering along on the fence, leaving your life in a state of limbo, while getting his needs met by you. Plan B will protect you and possibly give him a much needed wake up call.

Thanks MelodyLane, I am confident the OW is not and has not been in the picture for a very long time, and it wasn't until this past month that I feel confident that there has been no one else. My true feel is that he is being cowardly because it is easier to give up then risk a whole lot to work on this, and it will be work..I did post questioning the whole plan A thing and got feed back basically that since the A is still not ongoing and we are dealing with different issues then it is not relevant.

I do believe I need to get the strength to "plan A" him in my own way, not being the best friend to talk to, making things easy for him in every way possible, let him worry about him. In some I have started this process. Last week I got a guy to move into my basement (to help out etc), I took his house key back last night, feeling and acting a little more distant thru frustration...My problem is I have a hard time turning off my problem solving, trying to make things right...I do have a tendency to get frustrated...I was going to send an e-mail since I was frustrated for not seeing any response or EFFORT....this is what it said

"Please stop humouring me....tell me to f*** off or something....I am probably driving you mad (as I am myself), but it's because you say you want to or are going to do something but then just avoid...Just tell me to f*** off, and you can be rid of me...
Donna "
I need to get this crap off my chest but what is the point??? Man, I am frustrated!!!

bumping

I also get the feeling that maybe there is still contact with the OP or maybe a new OP #2. If he has not learned to solve his problems, he may bury his head and do it again. WS can be very sneaky about renewed contact. Just take a peak at the other woman board and you will see how many have renewed contact after a d-day. I too was the queen of Plan A. If you can stand being in Plan A, then stick with it. If you are loosing love for your WS, then go to Plan B. I was able to continue in Plan A for a very long time. His A is over (never say never) and now he is doing a great job of meeting my needs. There was a period of time which I believe was during their break up that he was acting a little like that. Could it be that she is putting the screws to him now and telling him to make a move? Therefore he leaves the house, she thinks he is divorcing and that keeps the OP in the loop a little longer, you know WS fence sitting. I don't know your story well enough to comment, so I may be off the wall here, but all I have done for the past 2 years since my H's affair is to try and figure this stuff out. Hugs to you today. Jersey girl

Thanks Jersey Girl, I can totally understand why people think there is another person involved, I have battled that myself. And I still think on occasion "what is causing this guilt-is it that it is still continuing and that is what he can't live with", She lives in a totally different province, about 14 hours away-so definitely no physical contact, but Emotional? Maybe...Your right now, I really have to do some thinking...over the last month-6 weeks, I did gain this incredible security with his feelings for us but that his guilt is eating him up. (I am not sure if you read his thread or not), but now I am sitting thinking..."S***, if you can't get yourself together to work on this then obviously there is a reason other than guilt"...I guess I better read up on Plan A and B and get some confidence back....

Thanks again, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Another thought...Should I write a NC letter, set boundaries, i.e Mondays is his karate night with our son, Wed is mine, contact only through e-mail if needed, etc as well as explain why I cannot live like this...I am 99% confident there is no OW, but the fact remains that he decided to live in this "hole", with only half-a$$ attempts at recovery, when I have made every effort letting him know we belong together, he is forgiven etc. Maybe by me relinquishing my friendship, he will see..Of course there is a chance that will go against me too, but I am certainly not getting any where hanging on and hoping....

Thoughts????

Yes, I would write a Plan B letter laying out the contact, etc and telling him what it will take to change things. Wallowing in his guilt feelings is a punishment on top of another punishment that no spouse should have to endure. So once he starts considering your feelings and gets over his selfishness and becomes willing to repair your marriage, then you will talk to him. I will just say again, that Plan A is not intended to be a way of life, but a very short 6 month [tops] plan.

This is kind of what I was thinking..Not sure how to end it off, but this is the gist...What do you think...
PLAN B LETTER"
Dear zachsdad,
This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do, but the time has come. First, I want you to know this is in no way my way of punishing you, this is for me to learn to move on from you as you have given every indication that you cannot and will not move forward with me.

I love you with all of my heart and have always made it clear that I want this marriage. I am sorry for the times that I have kept at you and hounded you for answers and for the times I have said things that I later regretted. Unfortunately, I cannot take them back.

We need to cut off all contact, as hard as this will be for me, I am losing my best friend, I love you too much to have only a best friend right now. These are the boundaries that i have to set out:
1) At work I will be cordial to you, but that is it, I will try to refrain from any other contact i.e lunches, coffee etc. E-mail communication wil best.
2) Your nights with Zach are Mon, Thurs, Fri and every other weekend.
a)Monday nights is your karate night, I will be there by 6:45pm to pick him up, or you can bring him home for 8pm (during the summer only).
b) Wednesday is my karate night, I would prefer if you are not there, but if you need to be, then please do not attempt to make small talk for the sake of show to other people.
c) Thurs and Fri are your nights, please have Zach dropped off at home by 8pm. If I have a work engagement, I will give you the option to keep Zach at your place, or will have a babysitter here for the time you are to bring him back.
3) Phone calls are limited to only absolute necessity, I would prefer to communicate via voice mail.
When school starts back up we can decide how to manage this. Please remember that I love you, but you have chosen to punish your whole family for YOUR one mistake by choosing not work on fixing this. You have given up and I need to stop trying to fix this for you. Keeping the contact that we have had is only allowing me to still be the biggest part in your life. I love you dearly, and until you decide that you want to really try and be in it for the long haul (good or bad), then we need to have this. END

LEt me know

D

zachsmom,

I am not experienced with Plan B letters so I hope someone else will come along and give you more learned input. Some things do stand out to me, though, and I will comment on those.

1. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry for the times that I have kept at you and hounded you for answers and for the times I have said things that I later regretted. Unfortunately, I cannot take them back.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would suggest changing to something like this: "I am sorry for my contributions to the problems that have led to this condition." I would rather say something like that than remind him that you hounded him.

2. Plan B is ENDING ALL CONTACT. You leave the door wide open. It has to be FIRM. Don't see him at work. Don't talk to him. Maybe communicate between a 3rd party. Send your boy out to the car when he arrives and make it clear he is not welcome in your home. We have several parents here who are on Plan B, hopefully they will weigh in.

3. Tell him what he needs to do to change this situation. What are your expectations of him? What actions would you need to see on his part in order chnage your stance? Maybe suggest an action plan from him outlining what he plans on doing to recitify the situation.

4. "LEt me know"

This statement implies that you are expecting a response. No response is needed other than the expectations you lay out. [see above]

I would also add a statement about the pain that you are in from the added cruelty of his limboland.

"I suffered enormous pain from your affair and loved you enough to work on our marriage. But you have not given me that opportunity. The added punishment of our separation, on top of the affair, jeopardizes the feelings that I do have for you. In order to protect those feelings, I feel that I must end all contact until you are ready to work on the marriage."

HI MelodyLane, your responses make sense, the only I have a hard time with is work. I am a Sales Rep and he is a manager, to which we have work things that we need to do as a "team". I am definitely going to limit those,but I am not in a position to bring other people into this, and if I refuse total contact with him, I will have to have a mediator-which thens brings other people in to this. I will keep it total business, and no personal conversations, no "how are you's" etc.

The "Let me know" part was for MB,not him....I do need to make my needs clearer in this, which I will do...

NOW, what if in my heart I am not "ready" for this but know that this needs to be done, should I wait, or do it and DO MY ABSOLUTE BEST to stick to it...Can you sense my hesitation???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>

NOW, what if in my heart I am not "ready" for this but know that this needs to be done, should I wait, or do it and DO MY ABSOLUTE BEST to stick to it...Can you sense my hesitation???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ZM, I don't think anyone is ready for Plan B, but does it out of absolute neccesity. You have to decide what is right, but it appears that Plan A has brought you nowhere and to continue in it is destructive.

Continuing only allows him to retain the status quo and leave your life in limbo. You are basically enabling him to continue by meeting his needs. He has no motivation to change the status quo this way. The goal is to move him out of limbo land by ceasing to meet his needs.

Here is an excellent thread on Plan B from NSR: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=30&t=000177

Ok so I sent the letter last evening, I waited until around 11pm as I was hoping I would see his last effort of posting on his thread as he said that he was going to all weekend. When I didn't see anything, I figured that is it, he is not working on this but leading me to believe he wants to. Also there was something on his thread that made me think, when he said that this was a relationship that he will never forget (the A), I left him a voice mail asking him if this is part his guilt the fact that he still thinks of her in "that" way or was he meaning because he can't get rid of the guilt because of the A. He acknowledged the voice mail but said he wanted to reread his thread (asked how he gets back into it), but then never did respond to my question by e-mail, phone or on his thread...Another example of avoidance..And I am tired of it....He did send me a wonderful e-mail yesterday, talking about what a jerk he can be-SORRY, he spent the better part of the weekend reading SAA and After the Affair, etc...But now those mentions are taken with a grain of salt, I need to start seeing something concrete.....

I sent the letter as above (with the couple of changes) but stated more clearly that i need to see MC, goals of our future, and together time (Just him and I)..I reassured him that I loved him and wanted this marriage, but I could not continue this way. After I sent it, I left him a voice mail (I can call directly into his vm), asking him to please check his e-mail(he is bad at that), and sorry but this needed to be done...He called me when he got to work at 7am today, asking me to bring Zach's karate uniform to the babysitters (I took his house key away on Fri.), but he didn't mention the e-mail...i will see him tonight at karate, but will refrain from wishy washy talk, and just ask him to read his e-mail when he gets home.

I am scared to death of not being able to follow through and I am just sick to my stomach, but if this doesn't do it, then nothing would.....

Sorry for the lllllloooonnnnnnngggggg note...

Dear ZM:

from what I have learned here - plan B is intended to remove yourself from this painful situation of plan A when your love for WS is diminishing and WS is not working on M.

Reading your posts I can't help but to get the impression that your Plan B is "too close for comfort". Sorry to be so blunt, but you are a long way from NC. You are under a lot of stress wondering when you will see him next time. How he will react etc. You call him to tell him to read the email. You expect a reaction from him.

Take a step back, ZM and reconsider what Plan B is about. It is for yourself more than anything else. Find your own way and make your decisions independent from your H's. It is for you to start to feel better.

I hope that you understand what I am trying to tell you. Maybe some other MBs can pitch in for help, too.

Hugs

Thanks IP, but it is already done and his reaction was sad, but self-punishing of course..I would post on here but too public of forum (like that matters now??)...I thought that NC would be a do or die situation-if this doesn't help him make any decisions then it was never meant to be-I guess...I cannot continue to try to help him and being a part of his life as his best friend puts me in a position to always be there for him (at my choosing)...I know that I am not ready for NC, but on the other hand, I really have no choice because I am only harming myself being around him and friends and making plans etc....

He did respond to his thread tonight which surprised me, but typical, nothing helps-he is done....

I left the message because I didn't want it to be days before he checked his e-mail and then what would I continue to speak to him until he has had that chance? I didn't want to deliver it to work, that is not fair to stick that to someone in the middle of the day..That is why I choose to go directly through the v/m...

And honestly I am praying this will make me feel better, it has been 11 mos and I am still holding on to the hope that this will get better, when he has all but given up hope....
Thanks for your advice and HUGS (I needed it), I will keep it in mind, but I also guess it is too late, I made that decision and I will have to live with the consequences...
D

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>

I am scared to death of not being able to follow through and I am just sick to my stomach, but if this doesn't do it, then nothing would.....

Sorry for the lllllloooonnnnnnngggggg note...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ZM, I think you did really good. I would only add that it is absolutely imperative that you follow through on this. To do otherwise will completely discredit your resolve and he won't have any reason to believe you are serious. That will only embolden him to continue to sit on the fence even more. I wouldn't even see him at karate practice, much less talk to him, unless there is no way you can't NOT see him.

Just hang in there and know that you will get lots of support here. BIG HUG!!

<small>[ July 14, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thanks MelodyLane, and actually everyone else, and for the ones who posted on zachsdad's thread, thank you...I don't think it has done any good because he still chooses to punish himself, and will not see that this is the easy way out. He feels since he is miserable-it is not easy....

MelodyLane, I am not sure I have caught your exact story, I do get the impression that you are a BS? Are you in recovery? How have you been handling it.

My H got the NC letter last night and was pretty upset but stated "considering what he has done to me and put me through he doesn't blame me"-how nice of him????? LOL...So basically our marriage is over because he has chosen that to work on it would be too much, and nothing seems to work for him, but when sample something you don't always get the full taste-I have no idea what kind of resolution he is looking for. Today was incredibly hard-I am so used to just picking up the phone to chat, and that is not there....will I get through this??? Where do you get the strength from, I feel like in one day I h ave lost my H (sort of already did), my best friend, my work colleague and the love of my life... ):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>I don't think it has done any good because he still chooses to punish himself, and will not see that this is the easy way out. ):</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi ZM, sorry you are having a tough day. I know it's not easy. Check in on Mimi's thread if you get a chance. She is also in Plan B and doing very well. But she is up one day and down the next.

I don't think your H is punishing himself, but punishing you and your son.

Yes, I am the BS. I have been in recovery for almost 3 years now. Here is a big hug:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ZACHSMOM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks for the hugs (I never thought online hugs would work but here I am sucking them up...)..
How do I get to Mimi's thread (I am still dumb when it comes to all the cool things you can do)..

Are you and your H still together or is your recovery for you?

D