Hi,

I just updated again. I revised the above post. It appears I didn't answer properly the first time I saved it and hopefully the above post makes more sense now. Sorry for the MB hiccup!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<small>[ July 19, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Hi there MelodyLane and Orchid,

First I will respond to ML:
"What is he "currently doing?" And why would he be concerned with forgiving "HIMSELF" when you and your son are his victims? Forgiveness of himself should be secondary and should be a result of making AMENDS to his victims. He refuses to make amends and chooses indtead to punish them further."

"What he is currently doing"--I am thinking (assumption), he means about living away from home. But I am not sure that I agree with you that forgiveness of himself should be secondary..I of course, do not agree with how he is handling it, but have listened and talked with him. And he is at a point where he can't look himself in the mirror, and thinks of what he did when he looks at me, so I think he needs to learn to forgive himself first, but what he is doing is not allowing that to happen.

Orchid: I think he is at a loss for what he can do, that is why he is at a stand still. The common remedies of counsellors, books etc don't work for him so he doesn't know what to do. He doesn't talk with friends about this. i can guarantee you, aside from his parents the only people that know of the affair are people i may have confided in. He has always been very much of an "emotional cripple". We have always been quite open with each other,the two of us, but he has never been one to speak of problems etc. His family are the same, his dad had cancer and we found out on our way out the door from spending a weekend with them. He said it matter of factly...That is the way they are, his mother is open with me, but more because I am an open book-lay it all out....

I know both of you feel there is someone else in the picture as you keep saying "fog talk", so now of course I feel like I am being blind sided and possibly an idiot. I didn't doubt his words and now two people who don't know him having thinking something else. I know why you are thinking that-because that would be typical, but all i can say is you haven't sat down with him and listened to his heartache and pain over the life he is living. I know he is the only that can change that, but I truly believe is suffering from depression, because he doesn't see how....So I will confess, I had a set back tonight. On my over to a friends-I called his v/m directly and left a message saying something like this: "I have been doing a lot of thinking and honestly think there may be more to your guilt and self punishment than what you are telling me. If something been going on in the last 10 mos. I hope you will be up front with me, don't worry about the repercussions-we cannot be any worse off anyway. I just want you to know that if you are hiding something more from me, then your guilt will likely continue. I know you have told me in the past that there isn't and hasn't been anyone else, but after hearing from different people "well if he really loved you...." or "if no one else was in the picture" ...then you start to believe that you are being naive. I just want you to know that we need to have full disclosure since everything has a way of coming out. Please write me and e-mail or letter and just let me know-please don't worry about hurting me, I just want the truth."

Dumb-I know, but I have always been the type if something is there, I need to get it out, and since early today this started to nag me...I was made a fool of once, I hope not again...So I majorly messed up....Not sure if he will even respond, but then that will say something to me.

Sorry for the long-windedness....Have a good night!!!

ZM,

I think you did what I have done. I understand. What you said came from your heart and that is important.

His reaction though may not be what you expect and you have to accept that for now.

Your M timeline and age of your child is quite close to what I went through. Our son was 6 when he wrote his letter to his father telling what he thought and asked his father to explain his actions.

How is your child doing?

Please remember that our opinions are just that, opinions. They are not always correct but just our views from what you have posted. That is all we have to go on right now. Gotta admit, we are pretty much on the mark most of the time but we don't claim to be 100% accurate. Too much variables and one w/b way to stupid to say such.

I would like to restate that the one thing I still see through your posts is that he hasn't come clean with you. This may be eating you up inside since honesty is probably a big EN for you. If he knows that, that c/b eating him up to but something, something very controlling is holding him back. Knowing this may be important.

Is he afraid of dying, losing his family? What are his greatest fears vs what s/b he real fears? Often in the fog that is distorted. I wanted you to be aware of that. Being in the fog doesn't always mean the A is on.....state of being foggy lasts into withdrawal and recovery.

L.

Good morning Orchid,

I know that your opinions have to be assumptions and they are designed to have a person look at all possibilities, and believe me I wouldn't still be posting if I didn't have a lot of respect for yours and others opinions, so I thank you!!

As for our son, he is doing so well...He is my rock...He does have moments at bed time that he will cry and want his dad, when I ask him to call him, he just says "no, I just want him home", what do I say to that...I have tried to refrain from saying I want him home too, but at times have sat and cried with him...I asked him one day how he would feel if Daddy never came home (this was about 2 mos ago) and he said "It's ok because I know Daddy loves me no matter where he is at"...He is just well-rounded...His dad left the week school started (his first year of school), and I was very afraid but he has excelled...

Although I do believe there is no one else in the picture, I do believe that something more is eating him up...And even though I am pretty sure there has been no relationship in the past 10 mos, I will not doubt a one night stand/sex encounter, as the guy he lived with and him would go out on occasion, and a quick one could be done...Am I sure, no..I have asked him and he has said that he has never done anything because he doesn't feel right, the counsellor asked him why he hasn't dated-or anything-and he said because he has had no desire to be with anyone and that would be another betrayal to me-even though we have been separated we are still married.

I made a false attempt at dating-out of sheer desperation to move on and prove myself, I went on a couple blind dates in March, and realized VERY QUICKLY that it was wrong and too soon etc...And that still eats away at me, so I turn it around and think, what would I be like if I did what my H did...Complete and total betrayal, lies, feelings for someone else(he even talked about going to Quebec to be with her), and this happened to someone who's one true moral belief was that cheating was wrong-I had total confidance in our relationship for 12 years-honestly, never doubted his loyalty...So I am trying to see it from his side..I don't think I would deal with it the way he is because I have always been in touch with my feelings, talked and self healed myself from many things that happened in my life...
Thanks again Orchid...I am hanging in!!!

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

Hi ZM,'

Any response from your VM? You get 30 lashes with a wet noodle for contact, but it will be interesting to hear what he says. I am not sure I really think he is having an affair now. I had asked you about it and you said believed he wasn't so I left it there. I do think he's in a deep fog, though, and his reasoning is so bizarre that it makes one wonder.

And I say that his forgiveness of himself should be secondary because you and your son are the victims here; he is the perpetuator. He CHOSE this betrayal, you didn't. That is why the moral thing to do would be to make amends to his victims first. He would rather seek his own forgiveness [he is the perp here, not you] at your expense. I am sure he sounds very convincing when he expresses this premise, but you can't imagine how self serving and inane it sounds to an outsider. This is one of the reasons I have wondered is he is still in contact with the OW. It just doesn't add up.

Do you see what I mean? And saying that it is "hard to face" you is a cowardly copout. That is a consequence of bad behavior that you face, not an EXCUSE to avoid living with his family.

ZM, Another thing that I don't know if I have adequately expressed here. I see a STARTLING divergence between his words and his actions. I think that you look mostly at his words. His words take on a whole new meaning if you go by his actions and then look at the words he uses to explain them. They don't match.

Z's mom - just wanted to thank you for posting your viewpoint on my and MJR's thread. I have been following your story as well. Although I do not feel as if I have much advice, I do hope that your H gets his act together. He is so, so ,so lucky to have a S who is willing to forgive him and work it out. I wish I had the same. Tell him that God gave him a second chance and he should just jump in and take it. That's what you had to do, right? MOVE THROUGH IT!

Tell him it beats the alternative. I envy him. He is a very lucky man. I hope he sees it and helps your family....

zacharysmom:...As for our son, he is doing so well...He is my rock...He does have moments at bed time that he will cry and want his dad, when I ask him to call him, he just says "no, I just want him home", what do I say to that...I have tried to refrain from saying I want him home too,

Orchid: Good to hear your son is doing well. Why don't you let him you want 'dad' home as a good daddy also? When mine asked those questions, it threw me for a loop but I honesty answered him saying I wanted his father home also because I missed him too but right now dad had a hard time being here as a valuable family member. My son didn't want to speak to his dad about it either.....said he was too embarressed. Then he wrote the letter of his own accord.

zacharysmom:... but at times have sat and cried with him...I asked him one day how he would feel if Daddy never came home (this was about 2 mos ago) and he said "It's ok because I know Daddy loves me no matter where he is at"...He is just well-rounded...His dad left the week school started (his first year of school), and I was very afraid but he has excelled...

Orchid: Good, IMHO it is important to let your child see you have emotions. They know it but to be around to give you comfort can be healing for them also. It is not meant to turn 1 parent against the other but it is important that your childn knows you and he are a team and will be together through thick and thin. That you will not abandon him like his father has.

Kids are resilient.

zacharysmom:....Am I sure, no..I have asked him and he has said that he has never done anything because he doesn't feel right, the counsellor asked him why he hasn't dated-or anything-and he said because he has had no desire to be with anyone and that would be another betrayal to me-even though we have been separated we are still married.

Orchid: This is a good sign but not enough to make him put into practice what he knows is right. This will take a while. Back to my previous point, if this is in the past, then it is just a matter of when that he can deal with his issues. If it is an ongoing guilty ridden thing. Well...... it can take longer. Either way he has to stop whatever he is doing that makes him feel this guilty. I would tackle it from that angle and not about any marial recovery..... not yet.

zacharysmom:...I made a false attempt at dating-out of sheer desperation to move on and prove myself, I went on a couple blind dates in March, and realized VERY QUICKLY that it was wrong and too soon etc...And that still eats away at me, so I turn it around and think, what would I be like if I did what my H did...Complete and total betrayal, lies, feelings for someone else(he even talked about going to Quebec to be with her), and this happened to someone who's one true moral belief was that cheating was wrong-I had total confidance in our relationship for 12 years-honestly, never doubted his loyalty...So I am trying to see it from his side..I don't think I would deal with it the way he is because I have always been in touch with my feelings, talked and self healed myself from many things that happened in my life...

Orchid: Good for you. Having to ability to have empathy is important.

Question: Would you mind e-mailing me at: mborchid2@yahoo.com? I would like to share something off-line with you. Something fun! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care,
L.

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

MelodyLane-ouch!! A wet noodle??? I'll take my punishment as you see fit-LOL....
No response to my v/m directly but he did leave me a message about Zach going to his grand parents today and did mention that he would respond and he has nothing to hide that I don't know about in the past 10mos. I do know why the thought is that there is someone else in the picture, that would be the easiest explanation of all...I do appreciate the fact that you can all bring different perspectives to this. And about his actions, that is exactly why went through with "no contact", because he was saying all kinds of great stuff but there was nothing backing it up-you are definitely right on that note....

LIT-hang in there....I too wish my H knew how lucky he was-that is probably part of the problem-he does know and doesn't think he deserves it. Your H will come around, just stand back a little and let him go through his pain, remind him you love and you are truly sorry and it will sink in hopefully...

Orchid, thank you...I am trying to be as honest as I can with my son without giving him too much info-more info than a 6 year old can handle. I guess I needed to take a step back and realize that our marriage recovery is not necessarily the answer and hope he finds it himself, before it is too late..

I just sent him an e-mail letting him that I might put the house on the market, my reasons, what his portion will be from it etc...I am sure he will react strongly and will probably give him one more thing to dwell on and feel guilty about but it is time to think of me-as well as Zach..I have an acre of land, a large driveway and I don't want to do it myself anymore....I will take the money from the sale and put it away until I am ready to buy again....I have a lot of thinking to do about it has this will affect Zach hugely!!!

Any way,that's it for now--thanks again Ladies!!!