OK – I apologize in advance for the novel. I'm a newbie here so I don't have all the acronyms down yet.

ummm... I've been looking for something to begin to describe what I'm going through. Dr.Harley's series on infidelity suggests that what I'm feeling will pass with separation from this other woman. The problem is that I have no desire to shut it down.

The 'other woman' found this site and used the 'ending the A' section of SAA that 'her' H gave her. "I'll never see you or communicate with you again... and though it can't repay the offense..." She sent me those words in writing. I knew they weren't her words... I found them verbatim on this site the very next day. Unbelievable! Those words though... I have never felt pain like that in my life.

I digress... and I'm not looking for pity. My W has known about this A since near the inception. I've been out of the house since May 15 03. I have shown this site to her and she has read the same series... so she says... but she says she would have to start over again with me and frankly doesn't think she can or is willing to do that.

The caveat here is that I don't have a desire to reconcile the marriage. Harley suggests that it can be better than before though... so I say 'OK... he should know.' so I ask my W if she could reconcile. She says all she can see is me with ‘her’(OW?) sexually. I get that.

I went to a Christian counselor per my mom’s and the OW’s request. He listened to my whole story and told me, much to my amazement, that my situation was unique and that if my W has no desire to fight for me… it’s over.

She won’t fight for me… which, in and of itself, is an integral piece of this convoluted puzzle.

So cutting to the chase…

I screwed up over 15 years ago and lost the OW. (this prior to knowing my W) I never stopped loving this OW though the longing did fade over time, the smiles over memories that could come in an instant never did fade.

Through 13 years of marriage the OW was always there in the wings of my mind. The OW contacted me 6 years ago and though I was stunned to hear her voice I was cordial but firm in my demand that continued contact would be wrong. In my heart I was sorry that I didn’t let her tell me what the real reason for the call was. (making deposits in the love bank… I know).

Fast-forward through two marriages gone to waste (LB’s galore) and 6 years later I contacted her and KABOOM! Some of the complications are the typical ones. Others are indescribable. I have no desire to let go of this renewed love I have for the OW. The word ‘fantasy’ is thrown around here like so much chaff. What I’m going through is as far from fantasy as I could imagine. Work is impossible. I’m on medication for the first time in my life for physiological responses to this stress that are beyond my control and the only thing I feel guilty for is the fact that I have no guilt over my infidelity.

Oh.. I feel like the dirge of the earth for deeply hurting my W as I have and her mother who I love dearly. I’ve always been compassionate toward others. So knowing they hurt because of me is hard.

Did I say I was cutting to the chase?…

OK.. I do NOT believe in LEARNING how to love someone. To me, THAT would be a thing not real - fantasy. To suggest “This time I’m learning how to love you”??? ughh! Take 2 people who have no desire to be near each other and offer them a textbook on how to love. Nice thought. So here I stand the infidel with no remorse. I love the OW more than my W and always have. I have no clue what to do. Have at me... I'm all "ears".

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

What do you hope to gain personally from MB?

Is OW remaining married?

Do you have kids?

(PLEASE put paragraphs into your text. Too hard to read otherwise)

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Sorry... I edited the original post. Hope that's better.

In answer to your questions:

I hope to gain some understanding.. possibly guidance on how to deal with what is going on in my life as outlined above. Questions for clarification are encouraged. I've seen and am seeing 2 couselors. Christian and secular. FYI

I don't know what is going to happen with the OW's relatioinship with her H.

I have a 5 year old son.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

You said,

"I love the OW more than my W and always have. I have no clue what to do." .... Well, without a clue, don't do anything! LOL!

Why don't you begin by exploring what YOU think love means.... "being in love" vs "loving behavior".

You're in a position now to spend the rest of your life "in love" with a woman who is married to another man. OW is apparently recovering her love for her husband .... and you'll be alone.

Is that what you are choosing?

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ep

"I don't know what is going to happen with the OW's relationship with her H."

Don't you HOPE and PRAY they can restore their love and their respect for each other and live out the rest of their lives completely devoted to their marriage?

Isn't that the best outcome for her?

If your really love OW, that is what you'd wish and pray for her. Because to wish her otherwise would be to wish pain and heartbreak upon her.

Think about it.

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ep

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

TMD:

Not sure what you're after here, but I commend you for coming here.

How do you feel about your influence on:

*Your W?
*Your OW?
*The OW's H?
*The OW's decision 2 sever contact with you?
*kids involved indirectly?
*Your integrity?
*love. What is it for? Selfish gratification, or selfless acceptance?

-2long

TMD:

Nearly all of what we think of as "True Love" is anything but. Most of us get in2 relationships and even marry because we're "attached" 2 another person - they give us pleasure. We feel happy when we're with them. But with time, even this kind of relationship can develop in2 a deeper, truly "true" love. Affairs are like the first example, only based on deceit and secrecy. Not much reality possible in that kind of si2ation, now, is there?

From Vladimir Kuskoff, "Thoughts on Relationships"

"Be Careful of Attachments

Most of us have the inclination to very easily become addicted or attached to that which gives us pleasure, be it people or something else. There is a tendency within us to repeat the good experiences and at times we are prepared to do everything possible to repeat the enjoyable experience in the future.

The consequences are bad enough when the addiction is to some substance and we can see it clearly in others but somehow we fail to realize that when our addiction is to a particular person, we are more foolish than the drug addict. Because a person has a free will and could decide at any time, not to give you the repeat of that pleasure. Not only, because, for some reason he can’t, but it could be for no reason that we could comprehend.

With people, just as with substances, we should never let ourselves be addicted or attached. Addiction is an indication that we have not discovered our self-sufficiency within ourselves. We see ourselves as a person needing to be pitied or taken care of, which leads us to expect or even demand that others do what they can to help us to enjoy life.

It is much easier to be on the giving end but make sure that you do everything possible that the receiver does not become addicted to you. For when he realizes that he cannot be without you, he will want you but also resent you as the drug addict his drugs. He will both dislike himself for being needy and detest you for being his need."

-2long

edit out nonsense

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep:

No, got a "body retrieval error" message! I guess the Earth is a pretty big body 2 try and retrieve, huh?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> 2long

Oh .... by the way.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have to say...

I just LOVE the title of this thread!

"Hopeless- With No Intention Of Letting Go"

No intention of letting go of .... what ? You are hopeless and refuse to let go of your hopelessness?

That's the way it appears.

Ever hear of "Learned Optimism"?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Wow... OK. Starting from the top and working my way down.
_______________
"Why don't you begin by exploring what YOU think love means.... "being in love" vs "loving behavior"."
_______________

---------> The short answer to a big question. Being in love is the result of initiating, accepting and reciprocating loving behavior.

____________________
"You're in a position now to spend the rest of your life "in love" with a woman who is married to another man. OW is apparently recovering her love for her husband .... and you'll be alone.

Is that what you are choosing?"
____________________

---------> I may well be choosing to be alone. Yes. I have difficulty with the thought of going back to my W. It's not a happy life there either.

_____________________
"Don't you HOPE and PRAY they can restore their love and their respect for each other and live out the rest of their lives completely devoted to their marriage?

Isn't that the best outcome for her?

If your really love OW, that is what you'd wish and pray for her. Because to wish her otherwise would be to wish pain and heartbreak upon her.

Think about it."
_______________________

--------> You over-simplify! I HOPE and PRAY the OW will be happy in her life; Whatever is required to accomplish that. I simply don't make the assumption that the answer to her happiness is this man who's made her miserable for over 6 years. I think and think and think on this topic to the exclusion of all other life requirements right now. Have no worries on my capacity to think it through. This is no walk in the park.

__________________
Not sure what you're after here, but I commend you for coming here.

How do you feel about your influence on:

*Your W?
*Your OW?
*The OW's H?
*The OW's decision 2 sever contact with you?
*kids involved indirectly?
*Your integrity?
*love. What is it for? Selfish gratification, or selfless acceptance?
________________

-----------> Not sure about my 'influence' on my W. She's strong. This has hurt her to the core of her being. She knows I understand that. She knows I don't regret the A. My influence on her? Dunno. Her ability to trust will be severely altered from this day forward is the only thing that comes to mind.

The OW? I know she feels the same way I do. She's trying to make it work or discover that it will never work.. But she intends to KNOW she tried. She's open to the possibilities.

The OW's H? He's had the wakeup call of his life. He knows he can't compete with me, he sure is trying though. prior to her letter she would tell me about his efforts at improving his behavior. I'm actually happy he's trying so hard. Brings a smile to my face. My influence there is one of marked improvement on his behalf.

Kids involved directly? Absolutely not. They are all out of the loop, on both sides... and will remain that way until such time as it cannot be avoided.

My integrity? Shot to hell. Any other answer is rationalization. My mom says that God will renew my inegrity. That is already happening in small doses. I'm thanking God for that too.

______________________
*love. What is it for? Selfish gratification, or selfless acceptance?
______________________

--------------> Neither. It's about giving of yourself fully and without condition and recieving the same unsolicited.

_______________________
The segment from 2long on attachments and addictions.
_______________________

---------> Not applicable here.

_______________________
Oh .... by the way....

Have to say...

I just LOVE the title of this thread!

"Hopeless- With No Intention Of Letting Go"

No intention of letting go of .... what ? You are hopeless and refuse to let go of your hopelessness?

That's the way it appears.

Ever hear of "Learned Optimism"?
_____________________

----------> No. The comments I posted, though long, should have imparted the fact that the OW has let me go to try to reconcile; hence the hoplessness. The fact that I love her still is the rub. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't let her go. I have honored her request to not ever make contact though and I will. I want her to be happy first and foremost.

I am the eternal optimist. I am certain that this has happened for a reason. Though the pain of this separation from the OW is sometimes unbearable, I have made changes in my life that are positive and will continue to do so. My hopelessness comment was, if nothing else, out of character in all respects save the emotional pain I go through daily for the OW.

=====================

So there you go. Some good questions. You're making me think in some ways I've not approached till now. Thank you. Keep it coming. And thank you for the commendation 2long.

2 married adults. Both having spoken vows before God to remain faithful.

Each "unhappy" in their marriage. Each lacking the relationship tools to work on their marriage.

Both seek "happiness" via adultery. They find themselves compromising their self respect, their reputation, their spiritual values.

"Happiness" is not achieved via their adultery. They must be married to the wrong person.

They separate from their spouses and their families and try to make each other
"happy" in an adulterous relationship. Not having learned the relationship skills they lack, the "happiness" as a co-adulteror weakens, and crumbles.

Each finds little to respect and honor in the other knowing they are co-adulterors, both capable of cheating and lying.

Each wonders if they were incorrect in their previous thinking ... "I was married to the wrong person and I was therefore unhappy."

Each begins to wonder .... "Maybe I was the cause of my own unhappiness, and I brought that unhappiness to my marriage?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not always WHO you're married TO ..... it is mostly WHO YOU ARE within the marriage.

How many of your bad habits did you change while married to your wife?

How lazy did you get as a partner?

How much did you come to take for granted in your marriage?

How aggressively did you persue marriage counseling when you began to notice your discontent?

How many times did you seek spiritual counseling BEFORE you were on the verge of disrespecting your own honor and values by becoming an adulteror?

How deliberate were you in finding ways to please and honor your wife, making her feel safe, protected and adored throughout your marriage?

What complaints about you that your wife might make are valid and embarrasing to admit to yourself?

Take care.... these are tough questions.... don't answer anything you don't want to touch!

Pep

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Wow, I feel compelled to write to you my thoughts but don't actually know what to say in this case. I am not religious in any way so I can't go that route, I wish i could say the TYPICAL MB saying which is MARRIAGE AT ANY COST but I can't in this case. I understand you love someone else, not your wife and don't want to learn to fall in love with your wife again. WHO WOULD! Doesn't sound romantic in the least. I think they need new words for that LEARNING TO FALL IN LOVE...how about AWAKENING THAT LOVE THAT HAS BEEN PUSHED BACK! First of all as far as your wife not wanting to work on the marriage, that's not suprising. Why would she want a man that is saying I LOVE SOMEONE ELSE AND I DON'T FEEL BAD IN THE LEAST! Not bashing you but let's get real here. What I am saying is not very MB and I will get bashed for it but my thoughts: Let your wife go, let her find what REAL LOVE is, from your explanation of what you felt for her from the beginning doesn't even sound like REAL LOVE, sounds like she was a "WELL THERE IS NOBODY ELSE AROUND SO MIGHT AS WELL CHOSE HER" that's how I read your post anyhow, i could be wrong. I don't believe that everyone who made a vow SHOULD STAY MARRIED! Reality just isn't like that. SOME PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE MARRIED TO ONE ANOTHER PERIOD! But what i will say is this. I don't see an everlasting relationship with your OW either. You haven't lived with her through good and bad times, that will be the test. The percentage of marriages that last due to affairs are LOW, extremely LOW! Another thing I have a problem with it sounds as if you LIVE for this relationship, you can't work, have to be medicated, looking for all kinds of counsel, nothing wrong with that. You just sound extremely lost and waiting for someone else to throw you a life jacket. You can't depend on OW to come and save the day and everything will be HAPPILY EVER AFTER, doesn't work that way. You need to figure out what it is she gives you that breaking up 2 homes will accomplish your happiness. Is it the thrill, chase, drama, diversion of having to work/face on yourself and your own issues?

ooopps double post!

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]</small>

Well stated, Pep.

I can't find enough truly rational thought in TMD's responses 2 our posts 2 justify continuing with this dialog.

Bye! (but not disrespectfully) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long

Trying2_4give

Huh?

You said "the TYPICAL MB saying which is MARRIAGE AT ANY COST"

I don't believe this. I don't remember hearing other MB'ers saying this.... Is this written down somewhere on MB that I don't know about?

Where did you come up with this?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I don't believe this. I don't remember hearing other MB'ers saying this.... Is this written down somewhere on MB that I don't know about?

Where did you come up with this?
Agreed. Can't say I've ever read this anywhere.
I think I may have read it hinted at in a post or two by newbies who haven't quite read enough to know better.

You know, your wife is better off without you, as is the OW. Are you going to allow this woman to move on with her life with her husband? And how could you possibly know all of the relationship this woman has had with him? You have no idea how their relationship is. You think, because you want to think, that her husband is some heathen who treats her terribly, so that you can justify wanting her and having her for yourself.

You're a very selfish person who needs to learn that the world DOES NOT revolve completely around YOU. You're so wrapped up in yourself, and your dillusions that you're wrecklessly hurting people. I hope you eventually feel the pain that you've caused to those around you.

You need to wake up and quit being selfish and hurting people and then justifying it with the romantic notion that "this woman has been missing me for all of these years." GAG! GROW UP!

Wondrme, I can see you are responding from a position of your own very recent deep hurt.

Please respect the guidelines on MB that we support ech other as we develop ourselves into better spouses.

"Your wife is better off without you" may very well represent your opinion from where you are now. As a recovered BS from more than 7 years past, I can't honestly say that I know his W is better off without him. Everyone has the responsibility to do their best in a marriage. I propose that this gentleman has not done his best, his wife did not do her best, and that once both of them begin to do their best working together, it is very very possible they could restore their love for one another, and put some of the magic back into their relationship.

When a freshly wounded BS posts to an unrepentant WS .... the fur usually flies. There are usually hurting words spoken.

Can you possibly come up with some healing words to balance out what you posted?

Take care of yourself Wondrme.....

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Come on now, with all the religious quotes posters (NOT ALL) type here about MARRIAGE VOWS ABOVE ALL ELSE, DIVORCE IS A SIN, etc, etc. etc. What else would a person believe who came here that MOST believe MARRIAGE AT ANY COST! And before anyone starts with the "WHAT'S WRONG WITH QUOTING SCRIPTURE"? I don't have anything against that, everyone believes what they chose to believe. But it is quoted QUITE OFTEN here, about the sin of divorce. I can't be the only one that has noted this.
I do believe that one should feel they have gone every possible route to save their marriage if that is truly what the want to do. But i don't believe that EVERYONE that has entered into marriage SHOULD STAY MARRIED, depends on the circumstances. If you don't agree, so be it. I don't walk in your shoes and you don't walk in mine. Enjoy the rest of your day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />