<small>[ July 23, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Moved from another thread... TMD, If you happen to be lurking....

"So this WS has the audacity to have parameters that must be met to throttle the process away from SSDD. And my W has set parameters that I cannot meet. This, to my thinking, is a stalemate." This, to MY thinking is called stonewalling, and it is probably a large part of why you two are in the mess you are currently in. Nobody compromises, no negotiation.... = brick wall.

"So.. to hell with your promises... your integrity is shot to hell already... what's a few more scars in the grand scheme? Tell the OW to piss off and do the right thing man!"
You would be making more of an effort to restore your integrity if you worked on saving your marriage. Let's say you somehow DO end up with OW - do you really think anyone is going to say "Wow, that TMD, he really has a lot of integrity. Look how he kept his promise to OW." No - they are going to remember you for the way your actions with OW destroyed your marriage and broke up both your family and that of OW.

"In my thread I said I received the N/C letter June 20. That part is true. There HAS been contact since though. I am on Day 8 of N/C… again… for the record... I promised the OW I would not contact her... I also promised I would never turn her away again. So when she initiates, I receive... eagerly. This is the the OW's most successful N/C run though. Truth. So this is why my heart is still so full… I believe… honestly though… I’ve been numb to the highly charged emotion since those few days after the big letter. So the repeated contact from the OW has been relatively easy for me to deal with. (I hear the questions… the contact is all based around making the N/C work … how hard it is… etc.."
Oh please! So having contact to DISCUSS HAVING NO CONTACT IS ALLOWED??? Give me a break! So when I made the comment about OW and your W seemingly moving on and setting boundries with you, you just forgot to tell us that you had been having continued contact with OW all along?

"Secondly - I'm not sure why that "after all you chose a married OW" statement bothers me. But it does." It bothers you because you are still denying that you premeditated the A and went looking for the OW. You don't like thinking of yourself as someone who is capable of that behavior, but it's pretty clear that is how you got into this A.

TMD, I'm just not buying it...
You seem to want us to believe that your W had your KAHONES in her purse for the last 13 years and that you only wanted to innocently check in with OW to see if she was still "pining away" for you. Only good things could come from contacting this OW, no bad intentions, happy feelings for everyone, right?

"I sure a hell don’t feel like I chose that. I feel like it snuck up behind me and massacred me while I was sleeping." Not buying it... you were sitting with your seat in the fully upright position on this one.

JMHO,
Shelle

shellebelle,

Thankyou for your thoughtfulness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ShelleBelle66:
<strong>Moved from another thread... TMD, If you happen to be lurking....

"So this WS has the audacity to have parameters that must be met to throttle the process away from SSDD. And my W has set parameters that I cannot meet. This, to my thinking, is a stalemate." This, to MY thinking is called stonewalling, and it is probably a large part of why you two are in the mess you are currently in. Nobody compromises, no negotiation.... = brick wall.

</strong>
Semantics
<strong>

"So.. to hell with your promises... your integrity is shot to hell already... what's a few more scars in the grand scheme? Tell the OW to piss off and do the right thing man!"
You would be making more of an effort to restore your integrity if you worked on saving your marriage. Let's say you somehow DO end up with OW - do you really think anyone is going to say "Wow, that TMD, he really has a lot of integrity. Look how he kept his promise to OW." No - they are going to remember you for the way your actions with OW destroyed your marriage and broke up both your family and that of OW.

</strong> Goodness Shelle... You certainly make broad assumptions on perspectives of those who frankly know more of this history than you do.

I'm not concerned about what other people think. You cannot please everyone all the time and if you don't even try, you'll have as much luck. THAT is a fact of life. I don't live my life trying to please either group or wondering if they're OK with my actions. I'm only concerned about my ability to deal with this crisis on a personal level. I frankly don't care if anyone agrees with that. That's what you get with me. <strong>


"In my thread I said I received the N/C letter June 20. That part is true. There HAS been contact since though. I am on Day 8 of N/C… again… for the record... I promised the OW I would not contact her... I also promised I would never turn her away again. So when she initiates, I receive... eagerly. This is the the OW's most successful N/C run though. Truth. So this is why my heart is still so full… I believe… honestly though… I’ve been numb to the highly charged emotion since those few days after the big letter. So the repeated contact from the OW has been relatively easy for me to deal with. (I hear the questions… the contact is all based around making the N/C work … how hard it is… etc.."

Oh please! So having contact to DISCUSS HAVING NO CONTACT IS ALLOWED??? Give me a break! So when I made the comment about OW and your W seemingly moving on and setting boundries with you, you just forgot to tell us that you had been having continued contact with OW all along?
</strong>

Shelle... I didn't say that anything was or wasn't allowed... YOU did! I was simply clarifying the content of the recent contact.

This thread, with the exception of the first 2 days, has been N/C for the duration.

And No Shelle... I did not forget to tell you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That morsel was purposfully omitted. I wanted RF to know though so she could get where I truly was emotionally.

I started the thread when I thought N/C was in force. I recieved contact briefly and early on and has since desisted.

This is day 11 N/C.

And It sucks!!
<strong>


"Secondly - I'm not sure why that "after all you chose a married OW" statement bothers me. But it does." It bothers you because you are still denying that you premeditated the A and went looking for the OW. You don't like thinking of yourself as someone who is capable of that behavior, but it's pretty clear that is how you got into this A.

TMD, I'm just not buying it...

</strong> No? Fortunately for me, buy-in is not a prerequisite. <strong>

You seem to want us to believe that your W had your KAHONES in her purse for the last 13 years and that you only wanted to innocently check in with OW to see if she was still "pining away" for you. Only good things could come from contacting this OW, no bad intentions, happy feelings for everyone, right?

</strong> Nicely paraphrased. Yes. I believe you got my meaning.

<strong>"I sure a hell don’t feel like I chose that. I feel like it snuck up behind me and massacred me while I was sleeping."

Not buying it... you were sitting with your seat in the fully upright position on this one.

</strong> hmmmn... well... in a manner of speaking, you're correct. And for the record... Your opinion on my premeditation is noted and accompanied by your clear and present anger.<strong>

JMHO,
Shelle</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Must be nice to have that power to sum up a post you don't want to hear to "YOUR JUST ANGRY". If you didn't care what others thought, you wouldn't be here trying to convince us that you are a victim of circumstance.

I have been lurking mostly for the last month as there is so much repetitive stuff going on, I feel that adding more will just be ignored.

However, it rarely happens that a WS as intelligent as TMD comes along and has the b@11$ to challenge the very essence of what this board is about. He is like Shrek that doesn't care what anyone thinks about him with the exception that Shrek has nothing to be ashamed of and TMD has. He constantly says that he is "not concerned about what other people think".

But that's not true.

At first many thought, wow, what a brave man! He is defending his point of view when there are so many that don't share it. It takes guts and courage to do something like that. Specially when he is wrong (and he knows it).

So I thought that he deserves the attention. He does something very few do on this board. He gives inside intelligence to all of us. This can not be turned down. It's great stuff!!!

But after a while I realized that TMD is nothing but a troll. Yes, the ones you see in EVERY chat room, the once that are starving for attention and will say anything in disagreement with the majority to continue to receive ATTENTION. He is feeding us Bull S**t. Mixed with some truth. For "believability" so to speak.

Of course he hides behind very convoluted thoughts that can only come out of a brain as developed as his to justify his actions. It challenges others who are at the same level as him on the IQ scale and he gets ATTENTION from very smart as intelligent people. This adds greatly to his "self esteem".

However, this debate cannot go on forever. He knows that he cannot win it. Every troll leaves as soon as there is someone that can threaten him. He got threatened and he left (hopefully for good).

He comes here challenging everyone with the story taken directly from a dollar store book. Telling us that what his W did, was so wrong that he became the man he never thought of becoming. Just listen to this: "She 'owes' our marriage a 'debt' that 'I' feel has been lacking over the years."
And I say: This is bull s**t. This is just to get us going. Spraying petrol on straw and starting the fire.

Then, he says he needs the info from the people on this board to make an "informed decision".
And I say: This is bull s**t. He is asking for ATTENTION. If he needed an opinion, he would respect it when given.

He got rejected by his W who doesn't want to reconcile at this point. He didn't expect that. He got rejected by OW (got the NC letter). He didn't expect that either. So nobody pays ATTENTION to TMD. Despite everything he says, I doubt very much that his friends are OK with what he is doing. They probably avoid him. Again, he is deprived of their ATTENTION as well. So he comes here. In the enemy's nest. To get his lost ATTENTION.

In this age of hidden agendas, and fake smiles it is hip to talk to the guilty party as if they are not guilty at all, but rather "confused and misinformed". I took the liberty to deliver my thoughts without the sugar as too many a$$ h***s take advantage of the dictatorship of political correctness to hurt others without being adequately compensated for their deeds (OK I sugar coated this one).

Sometimes I wish people like TMD were in the Army, at war. Where soldiers rely on each other to survive as a group and selfishness of one puts the whole unit in danger. How long would he last without "compensation"?

If TMD reads this: I suggest you to repent. It will help you. There are forces more powerful than the thoughts you're having. Be more accepting and willing to help others. Give up this troll thing. Listen to others rather than rejecting their advice. Do what others tell you. Rely on their judgement. Go to your W and on your knees ask for forgiveness. Forget who you were and still are. Take the mask off and be yourself. Let others guide you. Trust them. It will be so much easier to live with yourself. You'll see.

BigStar...

Have you read:

People Of The Lie

By M. Scott Peck .....?

It's an excellent and thought provoking book. It's a book about how evil expresses itself in ordinary-appearing people. Even if you disagree with Peck's views, it's interesting to read.

It's also about how non-evil ordinary people are confused and tricked by ordinary-evil people.

I recommend it if you've not read it already.

Pep

Love Love M Scott peck..

The road less traveled...

what is the opening line ???!!

Life is difficult??...
Life is hard??
Life is not fair..
Life is a beach???

well it's one of those....
and it is one of those change the way you look at things...

goood boook

gotta get my mind out of the gutter and find something a little more worth while...
good bye FABIO.....

ARK

Pepperband,

I went to the local book store during lunch hour (missed my soccer), but they didn't have it in stock. So, I read the excerpts from it on Amazon. It's intriguing.

However, the topic is not new to me. I don't mean to go into any details of my life, but it (my life) started on the territory of a mental institution, which in it's turn was located in such a bad neighborhood that the bus drivers had to be from it to avoid being mugged, beaten, etc.

At the same time I was put in the best school around. My classmates' parents were ministers, poets, scientists. The school was (I hope still is) truly progressive for its time and place. My art teacher was at the same time my physics teacher. One can only imagine of his teaching methods. We would learn more about physics during our art lessons and vice versa. Almost all the others were also great talents and personalities.

I learned French and Fenja (A thieves' slang. Unfortunately couldn't find any links in English to give you more insight) at the same time. My French teacher was from Paris, my Fenja teachers were local bandits and thieves that basically grew replacement for themselves and didn't mind anyone learning.

Now that I gave you the insight I didn't want to give in the first place, let's continue with my story.

One of my favorite activities as a child was to break into the clinic's archives and read the "histories of a patient". I could read for hours the raw data about the patient, his actions, words, sleep patterns, meds given, etc... THAT was a goood read. The best thing, it had pictures of the patient when he was brought to the clinic and consecutive once when he/she was in crisis. Nothing better to a kid that was a weirdo in his neighbourhood and at school. So I learned a lot about the mental illnesses at a very young age. What others may not know for their entire life about the mental illnesses (the symptoms, behavior, patterns, etc..) I knew before the age of 16 (to be fair pretty much every kid in the neibourghood knew that a maniac depression psychosis it's just schizophrenia).
We had a lot of contact with the patients as well. Combine that with the environment I was brought up in and what I got from the best teachers around and you have yourself an amateur psychiatrist. LOL

Sometimes I recognize the symptoms in myself, but everybody knows that a mental illness in it's mild forms is highly subjective to interpretation.

Now let's get back to TMD.

People like TMD exist and they are very real. The fact is, in a just society they cannot abuse a lot of people, but the one they live with. Their spouses, children, etc... With this new thing, called the Internet however, they found a new environment to thrive. Say hello to "trolls".

Here is a definition:

Troll: A post that is supposed to anger others, or elicit specific responses from other board members. The community usually ridicules such posts. This term stems from fishing (IE trolling for fish). People also refer to the ‘troll’ as the mythical creature. User say things like “Go back under your bridge, troll” and “Don’t feed the trolls.”

They abuse unsuspecting victims knowing that they are in the relative safety behind their keyboards. A troll thrives when fed. They do it for ATTENTION, feel superior to others or whatever else I don't want to elaborate here. TMD is one of them. That's all. He managed to create a 9 page thread in a very short period of time. We were feeding him. He thrived. He usually goes away after the "feast" but comes back when hungry.

Thank you for reading and remember not to feed the trolls. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: BigStar ]</small>

Hmmmn...

I go out of town and come back as a troll.

The internet vernacular is an intruiging thing.

For the record... Shrek is an Ogre... not a troll. Mike Meyers would take issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have to wonder who the trolls are... seriously... I have been here to gather thoughts; a broader scope of them than I could muster, otherwise, in such a short time. No ulterior motives or such clandestine intruigue as that presented by BigStar. Good stuff that.

No I sit here at lunch now gnawing on turkey and cheese and watermellon, versus the bloodied extremities of unsuspecting cyber passers-by.

Why provoke the return of TMD with baseless notions of some hidden design?

TRYING 2 FRGV: Good to hear from you. No I don't care, in truth, whether other people approve of my actions here. I do care to know that which I may not have otherwise considered in dealing with this on a personal level. How better to gather that kind of data than the internet; and how better to have the likleyhood of vehemently opposing views than on a site designed to thwart the likes of me?

Seemed a no brainer to me.

To hide behind the keyboard? Well. If MB streamed video conference, I'd be happy to join in. I'd even join the group of you... for a pleasant lunch or dinner... give you a chance toward discernment of my propensity to Evil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I live in southern Ohio. Greater Cincinnati to be precise. West Chester for laser accuracy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I would frankly welcome the opportunity to have vocal dialog on this for a change. I'd even drive for an hour.

Any takers? I promise I won't eat you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The desire to repent is palpable. The desire to accept what I hear from complete strangers as gospel is less than forthcoming.

Shelle, Buy-in is not my need here. Sorry. It's just gathering thoughts and either using them or throwing them away. And you DO sound angry sometimes. So do I though... so all's fair I guess. All of you have made salient points and all has been pondered and some still weighs heavily on my soul. So, No expenditure required.

Until we meet again, beware the agent provocateur.

a.k.a. TMD
a.k.a. Truly Madly Deeply
a.k.a. Troll of Meaningless Drivel
a.k.a. The Mission Defined

I have lurked on this thread now and again, come back to it today, since its back up again. I had a personal reason for being interested in TMD's situation, and like many others, was sucked into thinking my post might help him see things differently. I thought better of it and deleted my post. Why?

I think that Pepperband and Big Star have this right on the money. When my H and I were having problems, my H had a friend (I called him "buddy") in whom he confided, and who acted as his pseudo-counselor. TMD reminds me frighteningly of "buddy". This man was extremely intelligent, highly articulate, outwardly caring and sensitive and thoughtful, talks a good story about "tolerance" and "passion". I was also taken in by him at first. Underneath that persona is a moral abyss - I saw many of "buddy's" e-mails to my H, advising H on me and how "unreasonable" my expectations of marriage were.

In "buddy"s lexicon of intimate relationships, secrecy was essential to "protect one's individuality, otherwise one had nothing od any value to offer the other". Exclusivity was "extreme" - passionate and loving friendships with other people "enriched one's life and opened one to new experience". Separate finances were also essential to protect one's "autonomy within a committed relationship". When one looked deeper at what "buddy" said, every factor which would allow deep and trusting intimacy to develop in an intimate relationship was turned on its head - like Scott Peck's "people of the lie" - its eerie how GOOD such a malign intelligence can make such concepts sound. "Buddy"s communications often substantially contradicted himself in the same sentence - he would take a stand, and then in the next clause say that the opposite view was also valid. In fact, "buddy" was a person determined not to allow anyone, or any creed, even the Christian one he publicly professed, to interfere with his own cerebral moral autonomy - what he would call "his integrity". Because of this profound arrogance, wherever he went, others "failed" him. I know that "buddy" had, in his past history, walked out on his contract as a university professor, failed at marriage, left behind a child, taken vows in one religion and walked out on a partnership to start a religious community, taken vows in another religion, which he has just now walked out on - quite a record of "integrity". And yet, in "buddy"s worldview, it was never his fault, it was always a failing in the other person which was responsible for his decision to abandon his commitment.

TMD, IMO is of the same ilk - ferociously intelligent, passionately believing that his viewpoint is superior, a person who relishes the challenge of demolishing others verbally in order to defend his own conviction that he is being "true to himself and his feelings".

Such people, people with a weak moral compass and an arrogant faith in their own intelligence, are the people through whom evil actively works. I learned that with "buddy" - I am not saying that "buddy" was evil, or that TMD is evil, but I saw the power of the moral abyss within "buddy", and I see it here in TMD. I didn't used to believe in evil, either, and I am aware that many here do not. My experiences have convinced me otherwise, that there is in fact, an evil which hates marriage, and hates intimacy between human beings, because intimacy is the profound expression of real Love.

I understand that it is compassion which drives so many former WS and BS to try to help someone like TMD, but it disturbs me that so many people will spend so much time and energy on people like TMD when there are so many others who truly need attention. To pay attention to TMD takes time and energy away from people who are desperately in need of help. TMD is like a black hole sucking up the positive energy from this board. I am sorry for him - but I don't think anything anyone says to him here will help him to change - he thrives on conflict, and since the two women he has been involved with have turned their backs on him, he comes here to sustain his need for attention.

JMHO.

LIR

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I think TMD brings a lot of triggers out in people...

understandably so...

I don't buy in to all the dual-diagnosising that it has brought...

I think the rules of the board are not to be disrespectful...etc..and can't see where he's done any of that...

You know it's like that story about the person saving starfishes washed (warshed) up on the beach...and someone yelling at them that it's hopleless...and you can't possibly save all the starfishes that get washed up...and the person picks up one...tosses it back to the sea...and says..oh yeah well I just saved that one...

We are all a bunch of starfish...(especially starfish...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And especially when/if someone is involved with a gross amount of attention seeking behavior or all these other not so positive traits attached to him......do we just write them off...
as evil???
is that not the essence of someone desperately in need of help...lost to the light???
I dunno...

TMD you are one load of a starfish....

and all posts should be taken or left...viewers choice....

I know I'm gonna regret posting this...I already do.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The last thing this board is or should be is a debate.....uggghhhhhhhhhh and I hate it when I am to weak to resist just keeping my pie hole shut!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

ark - I LOVE your comments! And you are one of the people whose judgement I respect most on the MB forum.

I don't mean any disrespect to TMD - I think there is a difference between being judgemental and trying to be discerning. In my post I said very specifically that I do not believe that TMD is evil, or even that he is a troll - just coming here to deliberately wind people up. I really don't believe that he is evil or that he is a troll.

Its my opinion that evil works THROUGH people like TMD - - and yes, as I said, I am sorry for TMD. But I don't think he is coming here with an open mind, looking for advice on how to heal the mess his life is in.

I think he comes here with a closed mind, which he has admitted to, and thrives on the debate and attention he receives. I think its important to be able to recognize that quality in a person, in order to be able to detach yourself from the turmoil that seethes around them. That's something I have had to learn in my life. I wanted to make that point to others, but I acknowledge that this is just my opinion. I also don't want a debate - healthy exchange of ideas, and a clarification of what each person is trying to say, in a respectful way, yes.

OK?

Ciao for now,
LIR

Honestly you guys. I'm impressed with Lady. The depth of the abyss that is my morality is something new to me... I'll not challenge the fact of the darkening abyss. I only challenge the tossing about of a term as provocative as 'Evil' to see where it sticks.

I don't know you people. I have garnered a modicum of respect for a few of you though because you understood the basics of what I was looking for here, selfish as that may be, and stuck to that. You forced me to think. I have NOT thrown all the thoughts presented here to the wind.

The pervading theory here with only a few detractors has been that TMD, I'll use third person since it seems all the rage on this thread now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , should work it out... reconcile... fall to his knees and beg forgiveness... Hold his wife and weep... TMD should take on the proverbial robes of Job and scrape away the boils of his immorality with the Rock of salvation.

Life has never been that cut and dried for me folks. That doesn't mean I've never been convinced I was wrong.

Pep - I Do have difficulty following through.

James - I DO have the tendency toward the plight of the victim.

Ark - sheesh... just about everything YOU say is on the money. Your gift of the analogy is singular; the story of the starfish above is poignant. So yes... I am in the midst of a power struggle... the thing you so despise... I understand that notion and I struggle with the fact that I have taken this stand. I'm just not convinced that taking this stand is the wrong thing to do... and I AM a load of starfish.

In a nut shell... I have a deep fear of fundamentalist thinking... everything is black and white. How horrifying if that were true. I learned the hard way in my deeply rooted fundamentalist Baptist upbringing the damage that kind of thinking does to people. TMD, for example, trusts no one implicitly. He requires, what to some may seem obstructionist tactics, the tireless pursuit of truth. (ok Mulder... we hear you) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> what does that mean? It means that I don't always agree. Just because someone tells me "this is time tested proven theory" doesn't mean it will prove out on me. I only have one life... one chance... I'll be damned, and I may well be... but that's between me and God and certainly not a label anyone here has the credentials to apply... I'll be damned if I'm going to make life decisions of this magnitude on anything but the foundation of my own complete belief in the path "I" choose.

If you are frustrated by my willingness to disagree with some points out of hand, My sincere apologies. From my way of thinking, you gain knowledge not through blind adherence to the polished words of a deft linguist, but through question and argument and unsated desire to truly understand a thing to its core.

I have never been more confused about anything in my life than I am with the depth of my feelings for this Woman and the marked depravity of my moral code it has wrought.

You're right Ark.. From that perspective, which to me is nothing more than religiously induced guilt, though I feel it none-the-less, this has certainly NOT served me well.

I choose consciously to look beyond the religious reality and find that understanding I.... I require.

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with others thinking and accepting as they will those lessons in life and their respective generalist resolutions as golden truth. If it works for them and they feel that their lives are full, complete, and blessed in the end. Hallelujah!

There is no demon in me vying to sway their souls. My own father and mother lived lives to reflect that of Jesus Christ. My mother still lives today and her desire to live for the Lord and to his glory is as strong as ever. She prays for me, in this torture, everyday. I love her for that and so much more. She knows the things you don't... (I won’t bore you with those insipid details) she knows why I can't have the faith to follow as she does. I cry in those situations more than any other. I feel the Holy Spirit overwhelming me when I'm in church. When I was young, I gave into that overpowering emotion. Now I fear it because it is adherence based on emotion and not reason.

So if you’re convinced that there is no reasonable bone in my body, you’re certainly entitled to your thoughts on the subject. What do YOU gain though by attempting to convince others of what you perceive to be insincerity or implacable indifference or worse… Evil?

TMD

OK, TMD, I'll come out of the closet - you have responded, and I'm not a hit-and-run kinda person. First off, I never said YOU were evil - I said that through my experiences in life I have come to believe that evil does exist - and that it works through weak people - all people are weak in some way, at some time in their lives, and are vulnerable to falling prey to evil, yours truly included.

You forced me to think. I have NOT thrown all the thoughts presented here to the wind.
I'm glad to hear you say this - I hadn't thought that this was the case. I stand corrected and happily so - I don't have to be the one you listen to. Like ark said - this is an open discussion forum and people will share their honest thoughts and opinions with you anonymously - there's no reason you have to like or agree with everything everyone says.

The pervading theory here with only a few detractors has been that TMD, I'll use third person since it seems all the rage on this thread now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , should work it out... reconcile... fall to his knees and beg forgiveness... Hold his wife and weep... TMD should take on the proverbial robes of Job and scrape away the boils of his immorality with the Rock of salvation. Hmmm, this isn't my theory. I'm having a hard time recently finding reasons why some posters should try to save their marriages, which is why I am posting very little right now. Probably that's my own stuff coming up. What really turns me off is sarcasm - sarcasm hurts and covers up anger in a not very clever way - when I feel sarcastic, usually I'm angry - so I hear a lot of anger in your posts - and sadness.

Life has never been that cut and dried for me folks. I agree with you - life is never cut and dried.

In a nut shell... I have a deep fear of fundamentalist thinking... everything is black and white. How horrifying if that were true. I learned the hard way in my deeply rooted fundamentalist Baptist upbringing the damage that kind of thinking does to people. I can understand this, and I can assure you that I am very far from being a fundamentalist - my childhood background, in fact, is about as far from yours as its possible to get. But I would say that developing a sound sense of what is right and wrong does not have to mean that one sees things in black and white terms.

TMD trusts no one implicitly. He requires, what to some may seem obstructionist tactics, the tireless pursuit of truth.
OK, the big question - what is Truth? Do you mean your personal religious truth? Or the "truth" about your "feelings" and their (the women in your life)'s "feelings", or what? Are you a "realist" - as my dad is fond of saying "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist" - looking open-eyed at the world, rather than averting one's gaze from things one would rather not see or face.

It means that I don't always agree. Just because someone tells me "this is time tested proven theory" doesn't mean it will prove out on me. So really what you are saying is that you are afraid.

I only have one life... one chance... I'll be damned, and I may well be... but that's between me and God and certainly not a label anyone here has the credentials to apply... I never said you were damned and I agree with you entirely that that is no-one else's business - it's between you and God.

I'll be damned if I'm going to make life decisions of this magnitude on anything but the foundation of my own complete belief in the path "I" choose. I can understand this completely, but you have to have some basis on which to make decisions, other than your feelings - feelings are transitory and changeable - relationships are built on more than feelings.

If you are frustrated by my willingness to disagree with some points out of hand, My sincere apologies. No need to apologize - disagreement does not necessarliy consitute intolerance. Personally, I am not frustrated by your "willingness to disagree" - I am sad that you seem to be basing your life on a fantasy, and destroying your life, your wife's life and the life of your child, as well as another marriage, on what is essentially a fantasy. That's how it appears to me.

From my way of thinking, you gain knowledge not through blind adherence to the polished words of a deft linguist
You know, what really screwed up my life was my own blind belief that no-one had anything to teach me - it was only when I got off that and admitted that maybe there was something in what other people regarded as a healthy moral universe, that I started being able to start getting my life in order. (I'm still working at it, BTW).

There is no demon in me vying to sway their souls. I think you are battling your own demons.

When I was young, I gave into that overpowering emotion. Now I fear it because it is adherence based on emotion and not reason. IMO, reason can betray you just as much as emotion - reason is just as much a prison as emotion is. My own experience of God, while I have feelings about it, was not one of being overwhelmed by emotion, and this is why, specifically, I disagree with those who contend that one cannot be a Christian unless one is "born again in the Spirit" - uh oh - don't want to start a debate on this subject, either. My experience was an authentic one, to which I try to be faithful, but it was not the "Baptist" one of being overwhelmed with emotion - blind emotion is indeed, something to be cautious of. I'd just like to point out to you that you reject emotionalism as the basis for religious belief, and yet, you seem to be willing to profess a blind emotionalism to be the only sound basis for your personal life. Why is it wrong in one arena, and yet right for the other - this is what I am trying to say about inconsistency.

So if you’re convinced that there is no reasonable bone in my body, you’re certainly entitled to your thoughts on the subject. What do YOU gain though by attempting to convince others of what you perceive to be insincerity or implacable indifference or worse… Evil? Good question. What do I gain from challenging you? I don't gain anything in terms of feeling great about myself - in fact, it takes an enormous amount of time to post to someone - I have gained a lot from this forum myself, both from others helping me, and from lurking, and one thing I have seen over and over, is the WS who comes to this forum, unrepentant, who challenges people to change his/her mind. It happens over and over and over again. Usually such a person gets a lot of attention, because the trauma of a broken marriage is so great that people here will always try to help a WS save a marriage, knowing how badly the BS is suffering, especially when there are children. Its hard to watch the ones who are "unrepentant" get a lot of attention - so maybe on my part, its resentment that finally provokes a response, like ark said, about "triggers".

For me it is also difficult to watch someone as articulate and intelligent as you be so openly defiant and unrepentant - and your arguments can be persuasive - the evil lies in what your defiance is doing to other people as well as yourself.

I was intially interested in your post because you said you married your wife, knowing you already loved OW and always would, but you thought your wife was someone you could live with. There is a certain resonance of that in my own life and I know from my own experience that that is no basis on which to be able to build a marriage which has any modicum of emotional intimacy -such a marriage is doomed from the start to have holes and gaps in its cloth. To blame the breakdown of this faulty marriage on your wife not being able to be strong enough to mend these holes seems terribly unfair to her. That is what really got to me.

LIR

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I have a deep fear of fundamentalist thinking... everything is black and white. How horrifying if that were true

Beware that your knee jerk reaction to reject does not make you as closed minded equal to that of what you project on fundamenatlist thinking to be......
(I barely understand what you or anyone really means by fundamentalist thinking...and like it that way...it keeps my mind open to hear it all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I'll be damned if I'm going to make life decisions of this magnitude on anything but the foundation of my own complete belief in the path "I" choose.

Yet some of your life decisions by your own admission haven't been that good....something we all guilty of...but also something worth looking at and podering a bit...which is why you may want to consider listening and hearing others out...before putting your stamp of rejection on so quickly...

And also seeking truth about emotional issues...is not always very rational...

there are no garuntees and no amount of soul searching will create them....

From my way of thinking, you gain knowledge not through blind adherence to the polished words of a deft linguist, but through question and argument and unsated desire to truly understand a thing to its core.

hmm from my way of thinking you gain knowledge by realizing when something isn't working...and you fix it..
questioning arguing and desire to truly understand...can serve to just delay inevetable..."somethings gotta give here"....
some things can't be undestood to the core..yet are still good and right choices..

the choice to be faithful
the choice to choose actions that don't cause pain to other...

the truths I have come to believe and is becoming like some strange mantra associated with me..
is that actions more than any words or professed beliefs define us...

You're right Ark.. From that perspective, which to me is nothing more than religiously induced guilt, though I feel it none-the-less, this has certainly NOT served me well.

Uh Oh..that bad five letter word guilt...
and what a cop out...you don't feel guilt from any religious induction..;you feel guilt when choices and actions have direct consequances that hurt people ....
religion does not cause guilt...hurting ourselves and others causes guilt...when we know what we are doing is wrong...guilt...

all right..now I'm just confused with all this...

But this post does explain some...
you'd rather beat the dead horse over and over and over.....than find a new mode of transportation...there I just made that one up...and it's not as good as shut your pie-hole...(a personal favorite of mine... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
But it will do....

peace to all..

and ladyinred...I don't want too debate or challenge you...or your opinion/thoughts....if I were really to confess here...I think your post triggered me..and the frustration I have when reading some posts..when I really don't what too say or too advise to them...Or when what I recomend involves sharp objects and other things not sooo conducive to marriage building if you get my meaning...
life is a strange trip if nothing else..
ARK

Hi TMD, Just thought I'd pop in amongst all the "troll-talk".

"Shelle, Buy-in is not my need here. Sorry. It's just gathering thoughts and either using them or throwing them away. And you DO sound angry sometimes."
Feel free to toss my comments as you will to suit yourself.
I really didn't expect you to react warmly to my challenging you.

I know I still sound angry - but I only let it out here on MB where I can safely release it to others that have worked thru similar struggles that I have, and who may understand my pain.
My H is protected from, and oblivious to, any residual anger a great majority of the time.
You just brought it out in me.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Having a marriage & life turned upside down due to an A is tremendously painful. And I believe that if the OW is a "first love" it amplifies the pain for the BS - at least in my case it did.

I have kept posting to you because I have wanted your W's voice to not get "lost" in your viewing of yourself and of the OW with rose-colored A glasses.

I'm not really interested in debating good & evil, or your level of either.
I am interested in challenging your thinking of the OW, your W, your M... yourself.

And I am interested in helping to ensure that you deal with the skeletons in your closet rather than packing them up and taking them with you.... wherever you may end up.

Dropping back into lurk mode..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Shelle

OK.

First: LIR... thank you. There is not a single thing you said in your reply that I disagree with. Including the manner in which you feel evil may be used through my defiance. And the inconsistency of emotionally charged decision making on my part is one I knew you'd pick up on. I don't disagree with that either. It is inconsistent. The emotion in religion.. I learned to control out of necessity. The emotion for the OW was never a controlled thing. My arrogance made me think I could keep it in check. So much for my self control. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

and yes LIR... I am terribly scared. I've said as much in this thread... and why.

ARK - Your mantra is sound... I DO have terrible guilt over the pain I'm causing. You keep bringing that up. That's probably a good thing for me to be reminded of daily... though frankly the reminder is ingrained by now.

I respectfully disagree with your rejection of the idea of religiously induced guilt. It's very real and a very powerful tool of the church. I grew up in that environment day in and day out between Sunday school... Sunday morning church... Sunday night church... Tuesday AWANA clubs... Wednesday prayer meetings... Thursday youth group... and K - 9 parochial school 5 days a week of chapel. I was choked with that tool plenty and often...

Shelle - thanks to you as well. I understand your anger. Admittedly I likely will never understand the depth of it much as I likely could never understand the depth of my wife's pain right now or ever. Maybe I could only attempt to give it measure by comparing the depth of my love for this OW.

and yes... LIR... unfair expectations on my part from the onset. agreed. The fabric of my marriage was FUBAR from the onset. Not fair of me. Oh to go back with what I know now.

But Shelle - ... well all three of you. Let me throw this out there:

I know I'm wrong in all of this from a strictly responsibility born viewpoint.

I should fall to my knees and beg forgiveness.

I should work like mad to salvage this thing for the sake of my son at the very least.

I should stop thinking about me and think about how my actions are hurting others and rectify THAT.

I should tell the OW it's over and done and that I will no longer be available to HER. EVER! Which I believe is the only way to give her a fighting chance in her marriage. ...which BTW is a thought process I fully accepted from this thread.. I just can't make myself do it...

I should rally reinforcements in the battle against the personal demons I fight. That would be God I imagine. <--- fear again… giving into religious emotions.

I should then work to repair my life and then the lives I've done so much damage to.

_________________

All of this goes through my mind every day. The knot in my stomach tightens as I enumerate them. It tightens for a few reasons... some obvious but one is foremost. What if I'm supposed to be with the OW? ...sorry LIR... I have to ask this because it rings in my mind and causes incredible turmoil. I hear everyone say that what I hold on to with the OW is nothing but fantasy. How do you know? How do I know? How does anyone know that with such certainty? In letting go, will the fabric of a fantasy tangle the hopes of my reality for the rest of my life? The wondering; the poisoning of that thought as the detriment of any other positive action; should that be my reality? YES... VERY AFRAID. Has there NEVER been a recorded union between WS and OP that turned out happily ever after? Really? NEVER?

You get my meaning? yeah... @#$%^&* I'm pissed off... this sucks. I can't take THAT chance. The chance that this is NOT a fantasy. The Skeletons Shelle... I dont want to bring them with me either.

No ARK... this has not served me well so far... but why? could it be that I made the wrong decisions all those years ago.... and that now I've been afforded a second chance? NO? WHY? REALLY PLEASE TELL ME WHY!!! It's my "spinal injury"... my cross to bear? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGH!

Sorry Shelle… I know my W is hurting. But so am I… I know I know…. Cry me a river… right?

-TMD

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

OK TMD - I take it all back - you are nothing like "buddy". You have a capacity for humility which he lacks. I'm sorry that I compared you to him. I think that what is surfacing for me right now is the anger and frustration that I have experienced - its something I am grappling with internally whenever I come here to MB - and like ark said, your posts probably trigger that for a lot of people here.

Nevertheless, I wish you well. I hope that you find some way out of your torment. I don't see that happening as long as you hang on to your "dream" of love for this OW.

You said "I can't let go of the idea that this love with the OW is 'supposed to be'." Right there. That's right where I would say whoa - did you hear what you just said?

In your last post, you posited reason as a balancing concept against the mindlessness of blind emotion. And mindlessness, is, I believe, an appropriate word, because when one is in the grip of that kind of emotion, one's mind is impotent when it comes to argument with oneself. And this statement of yours shows no reason - its a statement of blind faith in some sort of higher pre-ordained destiny. Do you believe in that kind of predestination? Because that is exactly what such a statement is - if you translated such a statement into religious terms, you would have to call yourself a Calvinist - my book defines predestination as "that Calvinist doctrine that God decides independently of a person's exercise of freedom and manifestation of good will, who will be damned and who will be saved ."

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "supposed to be", "meant to be", "God meant us to be together", etc. I believe that I have free will, and therefore life presents me with a kaleidescopic array of choice, through which I have to find a way to navigate. Because of that, life holds wonder and the possibility of happiness at every step, as well as the risk of having to confront great pain. We are all human beings, we are all bound to fail at some point in our lives - we all have to go through that humbling experience.

I wish that I could say something that would help you - I understand ark's comment about starfish - about deciding whether someone's situation is hopeless - but I cannot see you moving out of your pain, unless you are willing to grasp the nettle of your own free will and give up the "fantasy" that your destiny lies with the OW. Your true destiny is to establish yourself as a person of integrity, a choice which still remains open to you. I am not going to say that you ought to go back to your wife. I am saying that I don't believe that you have a chance of beginning to resolve any of this, including your own feelings, as long as you continue to view things through this clouded lens.

LIR

Once again... I agree. Only you clicked the aperture a bit tight on the 'supposed to be'.

I don't deny the clouded lens. Not in the least. I vacillate because of it. I know enough to know the "fog" in which the WS is said to operate here at MB is there for me as well. I need to know that this fantasy is just that. I don't know any other way to say it. But the blind emotion is not something I cling to.

As with my faith, I have the basic belief that God is real and he sent his son to die for our sins so that I might, through his sacrifice, have a place in heaven where Christ sits as intercessor to mankind at the right hand of his Father. This is Faith at its simplest. It is my faith and the extent of my religion. By definition it is blind and without proof. I accept that much at face value. ..odd choice of words... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So then open the aperture a bit wider to see how I have this same faith in what I have felt through the years for this woman. Though through most of this time faded and intangible... it's there and I know it.

blind emotion...? hmmmn.

It seems to me the essence of free will would not stipulate the dropping of a fantasy anymore than the pursuit of integrity in whatever moral wrapping. It is simply free will. The rest is your slant... albeit... a well thought out slant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And one I don't necessarily disagree with. I just don’t embrace it.

LIR... Could it be baser...?? ARK just punches me in the nose. You reach inside and grab all the important stuff then shake and twist. YOU still see a fantasy where I see a group of choices. All the choices have any number of consequences good and bad on all paths.

My integrity may yet withstand the whims of the tide. And besides, it's not everyday a starfish washes ashore

-TMD