TMD,

Some OPs (esp OWs) thrive on hearing of the demise or any negative thought about the BS or family. Those types of OWs yearn for it, it is food for their A poison. Don't believe me? I have dealt with one OW in particular and seen many more.

This is generally a bad trait for women. One most find irresistable. Gossip in normal circles becomes an obssession in an A.

Does your Ow fit in this category? Are you sane enough to be able to see it? Most WS males are not, at least not while in the fog.

TMD, I admire the fact that you are here but am also afraid that while here you feel sort of safe in the sense that you can speak of the A. Please note that least me myself, will not encourage the A. I am willing to hear your thoughts and help where and when I can but will not enable your A or lend support to it in any way.

You have been helpful to others but remember it goes 2 ways. If you help you must also hear what you are saying and apply as well to yourself. That is what I do.

I do not want to see someone with your potential slip into the A hole (LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) and have regrets that can not be healed. Some take this A stuff to their graves. I think you have much too much in front of your life to be remembered as the man who fell into the A hole.

Just my thoughts..... no hard feelings, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

<small>[ August 21, 2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>TMD

what's your plan here? </strong>
I don't have one.<strong>

What are you doing??</strong>
Living. Sort of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <strong>

What is the time you have allotted yourself in your head in your head to wallow in this quagmire...
and what is your plan to get going and moving on something...??
</strong> Well - if you honestly want to know... I'm a musician [rockstar wannabee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ] and I'm in the midst of a recording project that started mid-may... I'm toying with calling the CD "High Infidelity"... or has that already been done? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> All kidding aside though... I'm recording original music. It's therapeutic.<strong>

AND I assure you if we were talking face to face NONE of this would be in a tone that is challenging or defensive...but in a tone of what are you going to DO to help you move on...what is your plan to feel better...

what's your plan????
where do you see yourself..in a week a month six month...etc....

</strong> You know it's funny.. My couselor chided me for wanting to know the future. She said to take time... One step begins the journey of a thousand miles. So I don't know.... ARK... how do see myself anywhere in a week or month or six, when I don't even know what to expect when I get home tonight? eeesh! here's what Is unofficially on the books....

- I'm working to finish an album by November ...CD release concert already booked... I like that kind of deadline stuff...
- I'm at home to prep the house for sale
- We'll be on the market in the spring possibly sooner ...that's about 6 months out.
<strong>

Because in some ways...you have wallowed over
this issues your entire life...in different levels of intensity....</strong>

Hmmn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <strong>

I know my wife doesn't want to see that mourning for the OW. I don't know how to handle that. But I'll find a way and hope she understands."

hasn't she done this the whole marriage...
</strong>
Hmmmn again...
<strong>
It means that I don't want to carry on a potentially loveless relationship solely for the sake of my son. It's something he would become cognizant of in time. That thought bothers me.

TMD these types of statements on a global level kill me....and yeah you're getting the brunt of my distastefullness on these musings....but for heavens sake...

every single relationship out there has the POTEnTIAL to be
loveless
hateful
hurtful
disrepectful
shallow
mean
icky
smelly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (OK smelly is just silly...no one says I have a smelly marriage...except maybe pig farmers...

SO WHAT!!!!!???????

logically then every relationship has the POTENTIAL to be
loveful
passionate
partnership
respectful
cherishing
any other foo foo word of choice...

we can wallow, prophesize and drown in the self fullfilling prophecy of potential doomsdayness...

You're holding yourself back from ever really knowing what a relationship can be...

why why why why...what is your payoff...

dam i really am becoming mean...
sheesh...

Go ahead and blast me for this post...
I might deserve it..
and it might get your mind of "other things".. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

peace brother...
and i do mean it...
ARK who is ducking for cover...</strong>

ARK -- I believe you couldn't be mean if you tried... I wouldn't be convinced of it anyway... I don't think it's in you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

All of what you said in that moment on your soap-box made sence. Don't you think I ought to work through my own problems, i.e. a lifetime of wallowing, before I jump back into trying to make ANY relationship work? Or is that stupid?

-TMD

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>TMD,

Some OPs (esp OWs) thrive on hearing of the demise or any negative thought about the BS or family. Those types of OWs yearn for it, it is food for their A poison. Don't believe me? I have dealt with one OW in particular and seen many more. </strong>

In retrospect... she seldom inquired of my W and my M. When she did, I changed the subject. The last thing I wanted to do was think of my betrayal while betraying. Get it? She spoke of his failings on and off and generally in fits of anger from a recent event in her M. She spent equal portions of time talking about how hard he's trying now and how sweet he is in those efforts. I never inquired. I just listened to her voice... the sweet poison... Most of the time it was just us talking about life and kids and lamenting choices of the distant past as well as less pleasant choices of today. <strong>

This is generally a bad trait for women. One most find irresistable. Gossip in normal circles becomes an obssession in an A.

Does your Ow fit in this category?
</strong> I don't believe she does. <strong>

Are you sane enough to be able to see it? Most WS males are not, at least not while in the fog.

</strong> Heh. Well I'm a good distance from convincing anyone HERE of my sanity don't you think? LOL. <strong>

TMD, I admire the fact that you are here but am also afraid that while here you feel sort of safe in the sense that you can speak of the A. Please note that least me myself, will not encourage the A. I am willing to hear your thoughts and help where and when I can but will not enable your A or lend support to it in any way.

You have been helpful to others but remember it goes 2 ways. If you help you must also hear what you are saying and apply as well to yourself. That is what I do.

</strong> I am comfortable to some extent here for the reasons you state. hmmn... Yes... Take my own advise. Orchid, I'm a weaker man than I'd ever imagined. But as a wise old Yoda said to the young Padawan "Do or Do Not... There is no Try." I hear you both... right now... I guess I'm DOING NOT until I'm ready to DO. Gets back to that One Step at a time thing. OK? <strong>

I do not want to see someone with your potential slip into the A hole (LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) and have regrets that can not be healed. Some take this A stuff to their graves. I think you have much too much in front of your life to be remembered as the man who fell into the A hole.

</strong> That was funny... Thanks for that laugh. I needed it.

To the point though. Thank you for your thoughts on my potential... I'm in counseling... I believe that will help me put this stuff to rest.
<strong>

Just my thoughts..... no hard feelings, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</strong> I don't even have hard feelings for the OW's H... You'll be hard pressed to make me hold a grudge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Your thoughts are needed and appreciated regardless of whether I would argue them. And if they sting a little or alot... maybe there's a reason why.

-TMD
<strong>

L.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"It means that I don't want to carry on a potentially loveless relationship solely for the sake of my son. It's something he would become cognizant of in time. That thought bothers me."
Just my experience, but I have know a he!! of alot more people who have talked bitterly about parents who split and forced the kids to live double-lives (two houses, two sets of stuff, two schedules, constant bouncing back & forth) than I have run into people who are bitter because their parents stayed TOGETHER. The kids didn't care if the parents were happy or not.

Yeah, as our kids get older they become cognizant of alot of things we'd like them not to. My 10yr old son was cognizant of dad having a "girlfriend". He was aware that this woman kept calling dad on his cell phone when mom was not around. My son cried in my arms, asking if dad "didn't love US anymore" (he saw himself & I as a package deal). He asked who he would live with, who's house his dogs & gerbil would be at, etc... Those are things I wish my son had never had to face, but due to H's A, he had to get some hard life lessons a little earlier than I'd planned.

TMD, I know you are deep into "it's all about ME", but that little boy is looking to you to be the example of what a man can be. Show him that a man can make a mistake, may hurt the ones he loves, but that a REAL man sticks around to clean up the mess he made, and is capable of making things better than they once were. It's a very important lesson that too many people didn't get as their parents jumped ship instead of giving their families a second chance at a better life because THEY couldn't "imagine something other than the life they had known all these years..."

Your influence in that little guy's life is phenomenal - please don't underestimate it. When my H was saying he was leaving (every other day), he would tell me that our son "would be fine - he will hate me for a few years, but he'll be fine". Oh how he looks back now and regrets ever thinking that - he lost his own dad to cancer at 11, and he himself was not "fine" ever again. To be left because a parent dies is a tremendously different wound to a child than a parent who CHOOSES to leave - and that IS how they see it, don't kid yourself.

Ok, so let's take the "I'm only staying for the child" equation out of this.
Your marriage would then only be "potentially loveless" if both you and your W stopped showing any love at all. If you think about it, that's really hard to do, it takes deliberate effort, and would require you to think about your actions at all times. Not likely, hmmm??

Ok, so maybe instead of "potentially loveless", you mean "without the BIG FIREWORKS that I felt with OW". Yeah, that would be a very real possibility. But you know what? I'm here again to tell you that it CAN be as good and BETTER than it was with OW if you make the effort.

You can't seem to see the future being any different because you are getting stuck in the past of your M. If you want it to be different, you must MAKE it different, and not take NO for an answer.

Believe me, after d-day I cleaned house on my M. I was a woman possessed. It was my way of dealing with the A and it worked. I absolutely refused to let my H pull us back into his "comfort zone". I figured that he was willing to risk losing me, so what did I have to lose in shaking things up?
It has been a very tough road at times, but 15 months later and I can honestly say that we have a better marriage than pre-A. We have made our M our #1 priority because we learned a very hard lesson about what happens if it's not given the respect it deserves.

"Actually No. I've always left the door open. Up to now, I have never intiated NC and I'd never made any moves to make contact for her less accessible."
Ok, sorry - to clarify - I meant hasn't OW done this over and over? Not you.

"- I'm working to finish an album by November ...CD release concert already booked... I like that kind of deadline stuff...
- I'm at home to prep the house for sale
- We'll be on the market in the spring possibly sooner ...that's about 6 months out."
What is driving the need to sell the house?
Was this something you were considering before the A?

"ARK -- I believe you couldn't be mean if you tried... I wouldn't be convinced of it anyway... I don't think it's in you."
Oh... does that mean that Shelle gets to play "bad cop" to ARK's "good cop"...?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"Don't you think I ought to work through my own problems, i.e. a lifetime of wallowing, before I jump back into trying to make ANY relationship work? Or is that stupid?"
Working on bettering yourself is always admirable, but not when it is to the exclusion of other relationships.

Don't let "trying to find myself" be an open-ended excuse to not deal with the crap, TMD.
Working on yourself and your marriage are not mutually exclusive. You may feel overwhelmed and not currently have the energy for both, but there are many of us doing it - with great results.

"You'll be hard pressed to make me hold a grudge."
Interesting...
"grudge - a feeling of deep-seated resentment or ill will"
Seems to me there are some grudges being held against your W.

Take Care,
Shelle

First of all Shelle... Thank you for your passionate thoughts on the staying around and being a man story.... It holds food for thoguht... much of which I struggle with already. I won't argue it... would be pointless to do so.

And Yes the OW makes contact... and I welcome it. I'm more screwed up now than I ever imagined I could be. I mean... just completely confused by so many things that enter this fray on a daily basis both here at home and with the OW. UGGH!!! I'm not holding a grudge against my wife. Funny that. I understood all along that things change and people change and that I was somehow going to have to adjust to the changes in my M. I simply thought I could handle it.. Now looking back I realize that I was arrogant to believe I could ride the proverbial storm on my own. No grudge... just facts. We grew apart and things I thought were important in the M were not important to her. REALITY. No grudge... It's out of my character.. LOL... well... so was having an A. Lets leave the character statement alone for now.

The reason I'm home is two-fold. One is to prep the house and the other is to be around a bit more often than I was when I was first asked to leave. I'm still not supposed to be around alot. It's very strange... I don't like it at all. It's the last place I want to be right now.

I talked to my W again about how I couold ever fit back in after what the family knows now. she told me that one of my favorites of her siblings who will no longer return my calls... told her... "you know sometimes good people go bad..." Wow! It's just more than I can face... notwithstanding the seeming impasses in my own M. Oh be strong... take the heat... take the abuse... live with it... it will fade...

well you know what? evrything is supposed to #$%^&&*ing fade away... Three magical freaking weeks... BULLSH!T!!!. and it's not. It just isn't. Nobody seems to get this... I'm just another number here... another lost wayward Assh^&* lost in the fog. Fine whatever! I'm done trying to convince anyone of anything anymore... I couldn't convince my wife of much of anything over the years.... well crap... I'm crying so hard I can't even type.

I can't see going back.. everytime i even try to talk about it I'm handed another reason why it wouldn't work. everytime I think about how my son will be affected... it kills me.. everytime I think about how the OW is hurting her husband and potentially her children ... I know those facts make her sob just as I'm doing now.

I can't even make sence anymore.... i imagine THAT statement will bring guffaws... I'm done.

Thanks for the good cry Shelle... I probably need more like that one... and the oen that's coming on now...

DAMN!

bye

Nobody seems to get this... I'm just another number here... another lost wayward Assh^&* lost in the fog. Fine whatever! I'm done trying to convince anyone of anything anymore... I couldn't convince my wife of much of anything over the years....

wrong tmd....and if I was feeling bolder I would say...Bu11****TT...(guess I am feeling bolder...)

No one here is stopping you from being together......you have stopped yourself..as well as your ow stopping herself...

If you two were determined to be together you would be no matter what we say or didn't say...and you wouldn't be here...but here you are...

people aren't gonna support you in that path...not here...and that's understandable...don't cha think...

people don't deny your deep pain...it's just really hard for them to let themselves feel it...

but we all get that it's there....
the fog isn't about your feelings...the fog is just a term about SOME of things/actions done in the name of justifying some choices and behaviors that are really hurtful....

I don't think you should be talking to your wife right now about reconcilliation...
you are very wounded...
she is very wounded...

I can't see going back.. everytime i even try to talk about it I'm handed another reason why it wouldn't work.

Just based on your paragraph above this one...you are handing her just as many reasons why it wouldn't work right now either...your paragraph before this one is all about the emotions you still have for the OW>..what the heck are you offerring your wife with that...

(and I am not denying those feelings..by any means....

AND TMD you are the same guy that years and years years ago thought you were doing some great service to you and your wife by telling of some deep torch you are carrying for some woman...AND still had the nerve to ask her to marry you....(oooooh that's mean...told you I could be mean...)

AND to give her some blame (wife)..she was dumb enough to marry you...but you sure did give her something great to hold onto and "lay blame" at your feet...any and every time things went bad...

I can just see fights through out the whole marriage.......her saying...well if you think I'm so bad..just run off with your true love...(said or thought)...you planted that seed and gave her the loaded gun....

and what do you do...just to really self fullfill your prophecy of doom.."a piece of my heart belongs to another"...you go and have an affair with that person...

but you aren't and WON'T offer her anything now that you haven't already done...you are offering the same deal you did when you first asked her to marry you...

Is that your plan?
Is that your best offer...?

the same thing you tried before...I will try to reconcile...but still a piece of my heart will be with her the OW...

again and again and again...
what are YOU gaining from this...
what is YOUR payoff...

ARK..who is just as much as a number as anyone...and never falls for dramatics..only because she only enjoys being dramatic herself..and never wants to be upstaged... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All this is offered with care even when it is mean...tell me to *&&^ off...it's OK...

OK TMD, I hear you....

You are he!!-bent on making sure your marriage is included as a tick-mark in the failures statistics.

Much easier to ride this downward spiral of being "another lost wayward Assh^&*" than to try to right the wrongs you have done to those who love you... I get it... too much work, no guarantee of success...

As a self-proclaimed "rockstar wannabee", I am guessing that a part of all this drama appeals to that part of you which thinks you are a "bad boy". So you cling to the downward spiral for all it's worth, but yet claim that it's not who you really are.

My H tried to pull this BullSh!t on me too.

He wanted me to just let him be the "failure" and "unlovable" assh@le he was convinced he was destined to be. Said he wanted me to have the house, that he would just end up living in someone's basement or a hut somewhere. Tried to convince me that he was so "damaged" that I shouldn't want him anymore, nothing would ever be right again. He had "contaminated" our M and that I deserved to start fresh with someone who wasn't as F'd up as he was. Sound familiar?

Well I called his bluff and extended my hand down into the pit of self-pity he had dug for himself and pulled him out. I got a bunch of the "crap" on me in the process, but I saved him from his worst enemy - himself. And all the crap he proclaimed about our M being "ruined" has not come to fruition, it's actually gone the other way and is better than before.

I realize that I reacted to my H's A in a much different way than your W has reacted. The OW was never mentioned in our M in the past, he didn't seem to be carrying any "torch", and his A was a fluke, not something he premeditated and pursued. Can't say for sure I would have extended my hand down into that pit if I had been reminded occassionally through the years that OW was #1.
How DID that play out in your M? Was it only mentioned in the beginning, or was it repeated thru the years?

"I'm still not supposed to be around alot. It's very strange... I don't like it at all."
Not suppose to be around? Did W rule that, or is that a self-imposed exile?

"I don't like it at all. It's the last place I want to be right now."
Avoiding conflict rather than working thru it?
Running away is safer in the short-run, but it WILL come back to bite you in the a$$ later.

"I talked to my W again about how I couold ever fit back in after what the family knows now. she told me that one of my favorites of her siblings who will no longer return my calls... told her... "you know sometimes good people go bad..." Wow! It's just more than I can face..."
Collateral damage, TMD. But not a permanent condition unless you let it be. And really, you don't owe the family anything. As long as you and W are ok & in agreement, it is none of anyone else's business.

My H has faced family & friends who know about the A. One of my sisters is cordial, but still does not trust him to not hurt me again. To my knowledge, no one has discussed the A directly with my H except my mom, and that was only a couple of times right after d-day when things were really intense. My family has taken my cue that we are ok and are putting our M back together, and they are honoring that decision and are supportive. They really want to believe the best of my H - that this man who has been in our family for 15 years had a momentary loss of control, not a complete character change.

"well you know what? evrything is supposed to #$%^&&*ing fade away... Three magical freaking weeks... BULLSH!T!!!. and it's not. It just isn't."
OMG - are you really referring to the A as "magical"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> 'cuse me while I go get my shovel...
You were (and still are) two MARRIED people, with kids and jobs, bills to pay, yards to mow and laundry to do. You burp, fart, and have morning breath like the rest of us....
What the he!! was so "MAGICAL" about you two PARTICULAR people getting together to F each other?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"I'm just another number here... another lost wayward Assh^&* lost in the fog. Fine whatever! I'm done trying to convince anyone of anything anymore... "
You don't need to convince us of anything, TMD.
Just put it out there.
We acknowledge your pain.
Your story and struggle as a WS is valuable here.

"I can't see going back.. everytime i even try to talk about it I'm handed another reason why it wouldn't work."
Maybe your M won't work out.
Just don't be so damn positive that it CAN"T.

Take Care,
Shelle

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

sorry for the dramatics ARK.. I hadn't cried like that for some time... it was a release.

And shelle... the three magical weeks comment was in referrence to the time Harely suggests it takes to get through the withdrawal. sarcasm on the magical thing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and As to the "getting together to F eachother" comment. I'm still hard pressed to recall that series of events. Save the 2X4... twarn't like that Belle.

There's been nothing magical about the affair. It has been filled with bittersweet all along.

As far as being home... I'm not supposed to be around that much... W impossed. I find it hard to do. she covers herself now when getting out of the shower... and i find myself averting my gaze. it's pretty screwed up.

Hmmn - Yeah you saved your husband.... you fought for him.

No... my feelings for the OW came up ALL the time.... not by me though. Duh... take a hint TMD. I'm just like... Babe! Leave it alone.

I've been a bad bad man... pretty stupid too. her brother was right... only I never saw it that way.

HA! I wanna be a bad boy rock-n-roller?! you are funny... I can't keep up with those boys.. YIKES!

Sorry again about the drama crap... I was cool when I stared that post... then I started bawling. I thought what the hell... but turns out it really was just plain confusing for anyone reading it. I'll not allow that to happen again.

-TMD

P.S. Shelle... I want to talk in depth about my M. I want to take time and try to be as objective as I can. No reason to not be clear here.. nobody knows me eh? stick around. Though ARK suggests the M was over before we said our vows, I'm not so sure. But I need to switch the focus there for a while .... right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TMD:

I dropped off this thread for a long time because it just got 2 grody for me. 2 close 2 home, I guess. Or maybe more like it, it got me imagining things going on in my W's head (and RM's head) that may or may not be going on - and that was burning vast emotional calories without producing so much as a glowing light bulb in the hall closet. But I liked this:

"Yeah. My counselor asked me if I "know what they say about the journey of a thousand miles?" I didn't know. "It starts with a single step." She said. I laughed at the simplicity. You probably could guess what I said next... "Then What?" "

Then, you take he next single step. And the next. And you may still be agonizing over "what then?" when you've just taken the one hundred eleventy seven thousand and 2nd step a year from now. But you know what? You still have 2 take the next step. There's no substi2te for going through this painful time, you can't go around. You can't avoid it. Just like your self-dialog in the car for 4 hours. You have 2 do these things in order 2 grow.

And so if it takes one hundred eleventy seven thousand and three steps 2 come 2 the realization that it isn't the means of getting there but the JOURNEY that's important, maybe you'll be able 2 reach that elusive goal without going the full 1000 miles.

-2long

No... my feelings for the OW came up ALL the time.... not by me though. Duh... take a hint TMD. I'm just like... Babe! Leave it alone.

I don't understand who or what you are saying...

I'm not the sharpest bulb in the drawer... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ark

"the three magical weeks comment was in referrence to the time Harely suggests it takes to get through the withdrawal. sarcasm on the magical thing... and As to the "getting together to F eachother" comment. I'm still hard pressed to recall that series of events. Save the 2X4... twarn't like that Belle."
Sorry TMD, I really didn't mean to whack you so hard with the 2x4... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I mistook your comment, I should have asked for clarification before just hauling off like that.

"No... my feelings for the OW came up ALL the time.... not by me though. Duh... take a hint TMD. I'm just like... Babe! Leave it alone.'
Is the Babe you are referring to your W?
As in that it was W who constantly brought up OW throughout your M?

"HA! I wanna be a bad boy rock-n-roller?! you are funny... YIKES!"
Aren't all rock n' rollers bad boys in one way or another? Please don't ruin millions of women's fantasies by telling me that they are really just a bunch of "nice guys"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"I can't keep up with those boys..."
Feeling your age a bit these days? If I remember correctly, you are a year or two younger than me. All this drama can really make you feel old, hmmm?
(Uh-oh... feeling the sudden urge to go buy a convertible Corvette... bright red... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

"Sorry again about the drama crap... I was cool when I stared that post... then I started bawling. I thought what the hell... but turns out it really was just plain confusing for anyone reading it. I'll not allow that to happen again."
No apology needed. A's bring out the "drama queen" in the best of us.

"P.S. Shelle... I want to talk in depth about my M. I want to take time and try to be as objective as I can. No reason to not be clear here.. nobody knows me eh? stick around."
staying tuned, TMD... ready when you are...

"Though ARK suggests the M was over before we said our vows, I'm not so sure. But I need to switch the focus there for a while .... right?"
Please clarify - you want to explore the possibility of the marriage being over before it started, or you want to focus on something else? Not sure which way you meant.

Take Care,
Shelle

tmd...

forgive me for butting in...

shellebelle66, you said...

He wanted me to just let him be the "failure" and "unlovable" assh@le he was convinced he was destined to be. Said he wanted me to have the house, that he would just end up living in someone's basement or a hut somewhere. Tried to convince me that he was so "damaged" that I shouldn't want him anymore, nothing would ever be right again. He had "contaminated" our M and that I deserved to start fresh with someone who wasn't as F'd up as he was. Sound familiar?

Well I called his bluff and extended my hand down into the pit of self-pity he had dug for himself and pulled him out. I got a bunch of the "crap" on me in the process, but I saved him from his worst enemy - himself. And all the crap he proclaimed about our M being "ruined" has not come to fruition, it's actually gone the other way and is better than before.

you rang a bell for me... i can so relate to how your husband was feeling... i felt that way about me before my affair... post affair the growth in these feelings has been exponential...

can you tell me why you decided to extend you hand and save your husbnad from himself?... what made it worth all the "crap" you had to endure?...

i can't get my husband to tell my why i was worth it... i think i'm looking for some sort of a road map...

oaktown...

Hi oaktown,
(sorry for the threadjack TMD, but you might enjoy the diversion... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I could just simply say I did it "because I love him", but it's really so much more than that. I'll have to give a little background to explain...

My H has felt "unworthy" of love his whole life. It started with his adoption when he was less than a week old. He experienced several losses & traumas over his childhood & adolescent years that reinforced that feeling. (To clarify - my H has very rarely played on my sympathies or tried to use his background to excuse his behavior, not even his A.)

When I met him, he was a Marine, a tough guy, a bad boy. But I saw through all that macho bullsh!t and treated him with the respect and love that I thought he deserved as a worthy partner, not because of all the bravado. I sensed a vulnerability about him when we met, and it drew me in.

We now have had over 15 years together. (I now represent the longest relationship of his life)We've had our ups & downs as everyone does, but there has always been this bond between us that I can't explain. It's been love-hate at times, but we always seem to gravitate back to love.

Even on d-day and shortly after, at our closest moments to splitting up, the thought of being apart was too painful for either of us to bear. We stayed in the same house, same room, same bed.
I think we were both terrified - but not willing to let the other know it.

It's hard to explain without this sounding "sappy", but my H is my best friend and I cannot imagine my life being better without him, warts & all. Part of it is that HE has loved ME at MY most unlovable moments as well. He brings out the best in me and I believe I do in him as well.

As for your question of WHY I reached out to him... past my own pain... the pain that HE had inflicted upon me with his A...
... there was no way I couldn't reach out for him and not regret it for the rest of my life.

He was used to people in his life ending relationships with him when he "screwed up".
I was not going to be another one - he didn't deserve that.

I knew that if I just had a knee-jerk reaction to the A and kicked him out, I would have missed a huge opportunity for growth. Sure it was painful, but he and I and WE were worth every second.

It's really hard to explain, and I am sure your H can't tell you because he can't really put a finger on it himself. It's not one thing in particular, more of an accumulative measure of the person and the relationship.

Please don't push him for specifics. Be grateful that when he asked himself if his life would be better without you, the answer was "no". Be thankful that you married a man who is capable of forgiveness.

I don't know your story oaktown, but I can tell you that the best thing you can do for youself and your H is to lovingly and humbly accept his forgiveness and work on making your marriage stronger and happier for you BOTH. If you have lingering self-esteem issues due to the A, I hope that you are in IC to help resolve those, otherwise you will be vulnerable to another A.

Take Care,
Shelle

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

shellebelle66...

it makes sense now... i understand why the words rang so clear...

i too was given up at birth and was later adopted when i was somewhere between 4 and 6 months... i believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with me, somehow my mother knew it, and because of whatever it is, i am unlovable...

i have always assumed that if someone says they love me, there is either something wrong with them or they have an alternative motive...

i wonder how may other adoptees have similar issues... i wonder how often an affair is used by an adoptee as a test of whether or not their spouse actually loves them...

it's late... i'm rambling... i should be asleep...

once again, my apologies to tmd for the interruption...

oaktown...

This is my new handle. Had to change my email address so email would not be accessible to OW.

Shelle - There have been some painfull epiphanies as of late. No details. Just nasty stuff.

My wife said these words to me tonight... as I have been in a deep depression...

"Is there anything I can say to help? Because if it will be any help to you, I will free you of any obligation to me so you can have the freedom to go find someone else to help you through this. You sure as hell aren't getting any help or pity from me."

I don't expect any. Didn't ask her for any. She just came out with it. It was still a shock to hear it so coldly stated.

A big problem now is that when I move my lips, she thinks I'm lying. Go figure. So attempting to communicate is difficult at best.

____________

On an up note... I actually slept through the night with no panic or anxiety waking me at 4 a.m. skipped the meds too. Hope it wasn't an enigma.

Tired. Gonna crash.

Still ramping for the M talk. Busy with life right now though.

L8R

-TMD

P.S. The rockers I know... Most of them... some exclusions of course... most of them made me blush with their talk. hence the YIKES! comment.

tmd...

Is it really coldly stated from a woman watching her HUSBAND live in the basement..and be in a deep depression...over his loss of another woman...

I mean honestly....

I don't expect any. Didn't ask her for any. She just came out with it. It was still a shock to hear it so coldly stated.

what do you expect from her..
honestly what..
not what you think I or we expect...
not even what you believe she expects from herself...

BUT what do YOU expect from her...

You know tmd...your wife says things that sound shocking and mind blowing and like they are written in stone and some sort of death sentence...and they hit you hard....
but you must realize that every action of betrayal you executed feels and said the same things to her...

Her hurting you is equal to the pain you perpetrated...

in some ways I am warning you not to get caught up in the drama of the pain...
and not react to her words...but perhaps try to process and communicate about...what's being said and demonstrated by both your actions...

i think you love you wife a lot more than you believe in yourself..
i think you are afraid of that thought...
for what does that do to all the energy and time spent on the OW...

but then again I think lots of things..
ARK

Hi TMD.

"There have been some painfull epiphanies as of late. No details. Just nasty stuff."
Totally expected. No details necessary.

"My wife said these words to me tonight... as I have been in a deep depression...

"Is there anything I can say to help? Because if it will be any help to you, I will free you of any obligation to me so you can have the freedom to go find someone else to help you through this. You sure as hell aren't getting any help or pity from me."
She still cares about you TMD, that's obvious.
But she is protecting herself from further pain by offering to help you the way she believes that YOU want her to - by letting you go. I did this with my H as well after he struggled for awhile and did not seem to be moving forward - either with a plan to leave or a plan to stay. He was just existing. Don't view it as a "kiss of death", it's merely a defense mechanism on her part.

"I don't expect any. Didn't ask her for any. She just came out with it. It was still a shock to hear it so coldly stated."
She's growing weary of your "drama", of your "struggle", whatever you want to call it today.
She wants to see you make a decision - either way.

"Limbo" is a very upsetting place to live, and I wouldn't advise setting up a permanent residence.

I told my H that I felt as if I was "living in a snow-globe, and he kept shaking it". I wanted the world to stop turning upside down. I couldn't take the emotional upset any longer. Although the initial shock of d-day had worn off, the "not knowing" what he was thinking or planning was very disturbing. I was living with a stranger... someone I loved but no longer knew... It hurt to feel I had to be on my guard with him... but if he was capable of hurting me with an A, what else was he capable of?

You are shocked at her statement. WHY?
This is not a "mood" that you are in, not a job dilemma, not a difficulty with money or health, all which when you are married you work thru as a team.

The A split your team up.
It's now every man/woman for themselves.
All bets are off.

"A big problem now is that when I move my lips, she thinks I'm lying. Go figure. So attempting to communicate is difficult at best."
Expected, but keep trying. Or you'll get nowhere.

"On an up note... I actually slept through the night with no panic or anxiety waking me at 4 a.m. skipped the meds too. Hope it wasn't an enigma."
Glad to hear you slept well, but skipping the meds is a bad idea. They cannot work if you don't take them consistently. You said in your last post that you have been in a "deep depression" - you need the meds now more than ever - don't sabotage yourself further.

"Still ramping for the M talk. Busy with life right now though.'
Whenever you're ready...

My life's been busy lately too - building a new deck (ok, H is building the new deck - I am mainly there to hand him power tools and a cold beer every once in awhle... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I've spent the last three days re-doing my 11yr old son's bedroom. It was a puppies theme (he claims it was too babyish for a 6th grader) now it is Hawaiian "surfer-dude" theme.
I have gotten so much electric-blue paint on me during this process that I could audition for the "Blue Man Group". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Enjoy what's left of the long weekend...

Shelle

<small>[ September 02, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

Hi TMD...

I am brand new to this forum. I have been searching for a thread that I could post on to and I'm not even sure if this is the right one.
I am a ws and have been having an A for the past 3 months. I have fallen totally in love with this person and it is killing me. I have been married for 13 years and was totally faithful until recently. I am in agony over this and just for the record...OM in not married. We both constantly talk about how we have to end this and how selfish and unfair this is.

I feel that this A is ruining my life..for all the good it has brought...the depression that I fall in to when I try to have no contact with OM is almost too much to bare. I have not told my H about the A. I can almost garuntee that it will be over if I do. I realize your situation is different than mine and goes way back. I guess I just wanted to say that I relate to your post..."Hopeless-With No Intention of Letting Go". That is exactly how I feel.

I wish you luck with your wife and life and hope that someday soon I will find the strength to end this relationship and find my way back to my husband.

Me age 33
H age 33
OM age 33
Three children 12,11& 8
Married 13 years
together 15

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: chak ]</small>

CHAK ... you need your own thread ... I'll start one for you ... you're in serious trouble and you need help.