Oops.

I just realized I'm "dwelling" again. Can't control her or the outcome of whatever nonsense RM is doing. Can only control myself (and tell her how I feel). Don't know whether you thought this or not, but I felt it.

I'm going 2 smack myself upside the haid with a 2x4. I'll be back!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long

I am RE-learning the very same thing everytime I interact with our son.

I have made it my mantra ... "letting go, letting go, letting go".

I think it is MUCH harder to "let go" if we view our coaxing as benevolent ... At least I know I struggle more if I'm doing a "good turn" and I get all invested in the outcome.

Whatever....

Pep

Pepper:

You are so absolutely right about that!!

This street is 2-way. probably always was. I just keep forgetting!

-2long

My 2 cents on 2 subjects, 2long.
On the George Elliott quote my initial thought was that the past is past. That it is never too late for change. Each of us are shaped by the events, good and bad, that have happened in our lives. If we are comfortable, happy, with who we are then we can better accept those events. Regrets? Of course. But we can learn as much from from our bad decisions as from our good ones, as much from our failures as from our successes. We can then take that knowledge and use it to become who we want to be.
My second thought is that we must be careful not to loose ourselves in trying to save our M. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do my best 2 be careful what and how I say stuff 2 her</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is well and good. But there are times when I feel that I have become so careful in avoiding R talk and LB that I am not being myself. You should let your W make her own decisions, and support her if you can, but you should also give your honest opinion if she asks for it. We should not become someone else for someone else. "First, to thine own self be true" Be who 2long wants to be.
Stay strong.

23:

Thanks for the post! I think you've got it about the Elliot quote.

Yep. I can only change myself, not her. You mentioned that I can certainly tell her what I think if she asks. You might be surprised at how seldom she does ask.

But she's asking more. And maybe more important, she's happier than she's been in a very long time. She may not trust that all my changes are permanent yet, but she must trust some of them.

But my life is about me, then my family, then my career. If I can be emotionally whole myself, I can be more helpful in a meaningful way for her. And then, her life choices are entirely hers to make.

regards,
-2long

I have to say 2L's got that one on me. Although I learned to accept things without them hurting me, realizing they are not mine to control, I wasn't ever able to really talk to her about them as much as I should have...

PS: Pep, what deity would that be?

SC:

I think that's where the paitence and the continued communication comes in.

I thought your post 2 me on our other forum was very on the mark. It reminded me that my W is "trying" in her way and that, 2pled with what I've learned about the BS's behavior on TMD's thread keeps me from getting 2 holy while I "wait" and work 2 further our communication.

-2long

TMD's thread also reminded me of one reason I don't think that plan B would work in my sitch. ...if his W were 2 plan B him, he'd just give up, because he's so done so already. I'm as guilty of the things his BS is - "not listening" 2 his complaints 2 her, his trying 2 reach her for years and years - that if I were 2 try plan B, it would only look 2 my W like I still didn't get the point she was trying 2 make all these years. We're making progress understanding each other precisely because we never left each other.

-2long

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

SC:

I think that's where the paitence and the continued communication comes in.

I thought your post 2 me on our other forum was very on the mark. It reminded me that my W is "trying" in her way and that, 2pled with what I've learned about the BS's behavior on TMD's thread keeps me from getting 2 holy while I "wait" and work 2 further our communication.

-2long

Well 2Long, TMD's point of view may sound similar to your W's ... but there are really big differences, gender combined with the meaning of the affair.

I think the differences are so big, I wouldn't draw any parallel lines just now.

This is from "Surviving Infidelity" By Rona Subotnik .... she references another book .... which I have, but where is it right now???? Can't find it today. Don't go out and buy these books. If you want 'em, I'll mail 'em to ya.

~~~~~~~~

"In The Erotic Silence of the American Wife, author Dalma Heyn conducted extensive research on the subject of infidelity. She found that many women entered into affairs as an escape from a culturally imposed prison. {{their words}} that denied them their sexual voice {{again, the women's words}}. These nontraditional women actively sought extramarital affairs, and many expressed little or no guilt about maintaining them. As one woman stated, 'I'm doing what I need to do for myself.'

The overwhelming majority of the women interviewed by Dalma Heyn believed that rather than harming their marriages, their illicit relationships reawakened their dormant sexuality and tended to improve the quality of their marriages. Instead of choosing to end their affairs, they wanted to find a way to continue them and integrate them into their marriages. "

~~~~~~~~

Also, I am just not buying the accuracy of about 40-60% of TMD's perception. He is a classic conflict avoider. He has well formed defense mechanisms. He also had a fantasy soulmate one true love affair..... very unlike your W's affair.

I honestly don't think your W even likes RM very much, much less views him as her soulmate. I think she has been using him, and his usefullnes to her is about expired.

My bigger concern is what insight your W will have after she ends the A. Will there be differences in her view of what marriage means to her? Will she embrace her choice to be a wife and a mother?

But, there is nothing you can do to adjust any of her views. Just step back and take a long view once in awhile.

The BEST thing you have said is you can see she is happier than she has been in a long time.... that is significant.

Pep

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

PS

I want to say I "HATED" Dalma Heyn's book .... and I don't actually recommend it ....

It is not pro marriage .... it made me squirm with discomfort at how some of my past (60's and 70's) behaviors were self-justified with such selfish and shortsighted justifications.

yech.

Pep:

Well, thankfully I don't see many parallels in the quotes you mentioned. My W isn't interested in having another A, even with RM (her words, because she doesn't believe she is having one now), and the SF wasn't "all that rewarding" (her words). And if you remember, it was very infrequent - like maybe a half to a dozen times in 12 years. Oh well.

News: She's quitting the job and giving dealing with RM over 2 her supervisor. It's not a NC agreement, but it will remove the daily need for contact related 2 work. She's already accepted the out of state offer, and will probably start in 2 weeks. We're going on vacation for the rest of the week, and desperately need 2 cool down all around. Going to do some fishing up at Puffer Lake (but it probably wouldn't be prudent for a bunch of MBers 2 show up there - I only mention it because it's kinda far from where we're going for the vaction, so you're not a threat! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

H4F: Hope you got your scope alright. I'm going 2 take one of similar size with me and do some "gee-whizzing" plus some digital photography, if I'm not 2 tired during the night. It's "dark of the moon" this week!

♥2long

I've fished puffer, but didn't do well. I wasn't planning on going this week, but it would be fun to show up and strike up a conversation with you pretending I don't know you.

I tend to think this will be a good trip for you. I know things are still up in the air, but she has said she loves you lately, and you feel closer to her than you have for quite some time. Use the skills you have learned. Stay away from LB's. Sometiomes I think they bait us just to see lf we have really changed. Really change.

Don't know what your plans are, I'll be around till Aug 4th.

Sometimes we get to thinking about lots of things. We have questions, we wonder what things mean. The bottom line is we don't know what they mean. I wonder if she just wanted to simplify life, if she wants to escape the preasasure she has been under. I don't know, and though you may have ideas, you don't know all the reasons either. If you are strong enough, assume the best, and go on from there.

I don't know how far you are along in conversation about her job change and what it means, but you may ask her her feelings before you permit yourself to have any.

I still worry about you. Probably I don't have to , but I do.

SS

Hmmm, interesting developments for 2L while I was away on vacation.

Your wife probably feels a load off her shoulders now that she has made the monumental decision and I don't doubt that RM was big part of the frustration and pressure she felt on her soon-to-be-ex-job (STBXJ?). Wait until RM finds out that he has to deal with Supv instead of her. One less involvement is a good thing.

It will be interesting if she sees you in a different (hopefully better) light given how you allowed her the space, time and freedom to choose as her heart desired. Time will tell if she finds a deeper appreciation for you and more respect and gratitude for the person you are in her life.

Enjoy your time away and keep us posted when you return!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

SS:

Yeah, we go 2 the small lake by the old resort south of the road, not actually Puffer. We do pretty well there, 2. Caught a bunch of suckers, but also about 6 fine trout.

We got home late last night. I just helped my W write her resignation email and send it off 2 the personnel dept at her work. She and D are heading in 2 work now.

I've been feeling pretty unusual lately, 2. I think that even MBers would have 2 admit that there is not only such a thing as unconditional love, it's often all that holds us together when trying 2 deal with infidelity. I found myself thinking, while working on the out-of-state house this past week, that there may be something 2 the "love bank" concept after all, because the romantic love I feel for my W is being "replaced" with a more substantial compassion for her, one that requires neither that we stay together or split apart. One that just IS.

I didn't bring any relationship literature with me, and wish I had, because I found myself becoming more judgmental than I would like 2 admit, again. I found myself dwelling 2 much on the emails I last saw 2 RM (a month and a half ago now), what they "mean" and what this new job might "mean."

In the end, though, what's important is what *I* mean 2 myself, what my family means 2 me, and how I can improve our si2ation NOW. And none of that is served by trying 2 2nd guess what my W is trying 2 do.

We had a good week, but it was tempered by stressful associations 2 work - W and D 2k some work with them, so it wasn't out of her thoughts the whole time.

Last I heard, my W had told her boss and RM how 2 get hold of each other in order 2 get the remaining report and materials re2rned. And RM had fairly quickly replied 2 her boss with ideas and plans 2 send them - so this "trip" that my W talked about taking coworker along as a chaparone 2 get the stuff in person won't be happening! I don't know the "tone" on RM's end, regarding their "friendship", but I do know that he's in a bitter DV battle over custody of their 2 sons, and that his stbxw's father is wealthy enough 2 hire a "good" lawyer. I don't know if he's thought of the potential "dirt" that continued contact with my W could give the lawyer, but it certainly is something *I* have thought about. I also don't know if my W has thought much about it, though I have asked. And, in the end, I still don't know what she intends 2 do about contact from now on, now that there is no more need for professional contact. I can only wait and see how the next few weeks play out with the new job and our M and family si2ation.

I can also ask, and am not afraid 2 do so any longer. I'm just not going 2 ask right NOW, when so much is up in the air with her. I feel a strong sense of peace. I realized that even the "negative" thoughts I had this past week about our R were more positive signs of "detachment with love" which is probably more accurately described as truly accepting her choices now, whatever they may be. Truly loving her unconditionally, whatever the "right path" for us turns out 2 be...

-ol' 2long

This thread's tired. I'm going 2 move that last post 2 a new thread.

-2long

OK,
I'll try and remember not to post on this one any more.

I'll try.