Ok-I'm looking for suggestions.....

In a nutshell, here's my problem....(F?)WH very definite conflict avoider, and I strongly suspect much deeper and serious issues.....Refuses any kind of MC or IC...although to his credit, he has agreed to EN, LB questionnaires, and reading some thing about infedelity, etc. that I have printed out from this site and a few others....at least on the surface.....

Awhile back, during the meeting each other's needs discussions, he made certain requests of me to take care of what he saw as LB's....ok, fine...I've worked on these specific things and have made good (although not perfect) progress....

At the same time, he's only given lip-service to what I consider LB's, or continually finds excuses as to why he hasn't made efforts, or flat out says that my needs are unnecessary, or stupid, etc.

OK-That ticks me off to be disrespected and belittled in such a manner....but, allowing for withdrawal, resentment, fog-bound or simple avoidance tactics, I've tried very hard to meet his needs and wait for him to "come around" to being willing to do more than just talk about mine...

What is truly driving me crazy at this point...is this...he will express a "need" for me to change a specific behavior or implement certain "considerations"...and as soon as I do these things...he says..."I've decided that a, b, and c are not so important, so now I want x,y, and z...."

Or....holding my needs "hostage" in the spirit of..."If you do A, then I will do B"...etc...but amazingly enough....B never happens....or A turns in to A+C,D&E....

Or....when I can get him to negotiate and compromise....and it appears that we have POJA'd any issue....he builds resentments about his "concessions" and how I've forced him to "give in"...his words....

When I insist that he stick to his agreements..all I get are resentment and angry outbursts...or flat-out stonewalling and complete shut down and withdrawal...

The latest long line...."I'm worried about financial issues...I can't concentrate on emotional things as long as I see possible financial difficulties..."

PS-Our financial situation, although not trouble-free, is basically ok...minimal debt, no credit actions or collection issues...the bills get paid, on time, we are not starving, etc...no loss of residence...or imminent threat of any of these things occuring.....

I'm about out of ideas on how to deal with what I see as dodging and manipulation...I'm tired of monetary answers to emotional questions...

Ideas?

Here’s my suggestion.
Put the scorecard away. Meeting EN’s is not a point system where by you do mine and I’ll do yours. In your own words “when I can get him to negotiate and compromise…he builds resentments about his "concessions" That’s fair he is resentful just as you are when he tells you yours are stupid and not needed. A scorecard has no place in Plan A, Recovery or a M.

It seems to me that he has only half of the EN, LB thing figured out. He, and possibly you, are using them kind of whimsically and on the fly or he would not be changing them often. (That’s not to say they don’t change, just not like underwear) Do the questionnaires and find what each of your top 5 are and concentrate on those. If he won’t read his needs her needs get the cassette tapes for his drive to work.

Suggestion 2: is for you to keep meeting his “real” EN’s even if he is not meeting yours, Lead by example. I’m not saying to be a complete doormat; you are with in your right and responsible to tell him the truth. Your EN’s are yours, there your perception and he can not look at them from his point of view or project what he thinks is important onto you. Tell him the truth, eventually you will loose enough love for him that you won’t be able to continue to meet his EN or be able to stay in the M. Eventually you'll be suceptable to an A. That is not a threat or an ultimatum it’s the cold hard truth. The more you meet his needs, plan A and grow as a person the more impact that reality will have. It’s the basic premise behind all this stuff. But someone has to go first and mean it.

Oz

Hi, Oz...I appreciate the reply.

This is so hard...I'm continuing to try to meet his needs as best I can....without being a doormat...but the love bank is overdrawn...ship is sinking fast....and I've been honest with him about this, in a non-LB fashion....

Honestly, I'm not trying to keep score, although the suggestion that I take a long hard look at that,is appropriate, timely good advice. Thanks. I will do that.

Admittedly, establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries in a romantic relationship has been a problem for me...and I haven't spent near the time or energy dealing with these issues as I have in dealing with my addictive issues....(sigh)....

He may never put his scorecard away, and I cannot fix or control that.

So..it comes down to what I can live with, right?

I'm feeling like a parent trying to quiet a child in the throes of a tantrum, trying to bribe him with goodies or toys....I've gotta keep offering, til I stumble upon the "right" goodie....only to have it quiet the child for a few minutes, and the whole process starts all over again.

Another appropriate analogy many folks will recognise is the idea of a trying to please a picky eater...."let's try burgers"....bite..."nope- I want something else"...."let's try pizza"...bite...."nope-I want something else", ad nauseum..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Is it a control issue? Power struggle? Boundary thing? Process of elimination recovery is NOT fun or rewarding in the least....not for me anyways. I'm truly feeling lost here.

In this case, is my willingness to have an open mind and being willing to look at and try anything being used against me?

I'm the proverbial rat in the maze....now dammit---where's my cheese??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

I realize the food example was to illustrate how frustrating the man can be .... but let's go with that example for a moment:

You want burgers tonight? ... "nope"

You want pizza then? ... "nope"

.... after 2 rejected offers, smile, shut up and go eat by yourself.... and, do NOT get angry, hurt, upset in any way. Make this as neutral as you possibly can. Go enjoy yourself after he rejects your offer to share enjoyment/food/activity.

When dealing with passive-agressive attention getting behavior, just walk away ... and this part is of highest importance ---> walk away HAPPY and SMILING.

If he changes his mind and asks for a part of your food, you can either share, if you have enough, or say "I don't have enough to share." .... and that is the end of the conversation about the food.

You may have to repeat this several times, but the desire to string you along deminishes when there is no payoff.

"Is it a control issue? A power struggle?" ... It might simply be a habit. Old patterns.

Pep

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hi Pep-
I've tried that..sort of...except for the happy and smiling part...

I gotta admit...he's good at what he does...when I tried your approach...what I got was....

"See? I'm glad I haven't wasted any energy on you...you are giving up...you are not meeting my EN....you really don't want to save this, do you?"

For me to draw a line in the sand and say...after I try twice...you're on your own...is a LB to him, and then the failure is mine, not his....and poof! He's off the hook!

This is crazy...and has been going on for several weeks....with various incidents, issues, and discussions starting it off....but they all end the same. I'm at fault, and he's not. I'm responsible and he's not. It's up to me to change, not him. If I make him happy, then he won't cheat....

Basically told him he has to be responsible for his own happiness...nothing I do or change can make him happy if he is choosing to be unhappy...for him to look to me for his happinesss is a set-up for sure....

What I've learned is now I know how the cheap fiddle feels, and we don't even need to go to where the cheap fiddle is 2nd..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

"except for the happy and smiling part"

But, that's the most important part!!!! If you skip that part .... there is no point!

"Basically I told him he has to be responsible for his own happiness"

Don't "tell him" how to be. Be how to be.

"After I try twice you're on your own"

No No NO .... you don't "say this" you simply go about your business and make yourself a pleasing delicious meal and enjoy.

He says: "I'm glad I haven't wasted any energy on you"

You say ... not sarcastic and not drawing a line at all ... "I wouldn't want you to waste your energy."

How serene are you when you make up your mind to be?

Pep

Pep-
All points noted and taken...

I can be pretty serene, but I'm running low in the stamina department...for variuos resons...

To be prepared to deal with this kind of behavior at any time, for any reason, at his whim....is wearing me down.

On the other hand...maintaing enough emotional distance to see the truck coming and jump out of it's way has been helpful, too.

At least I'm not trying to stop the truck with just li'l ol' me anymore! Progress, not perfection.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Progress not perfection !!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You caught me!

I love you Hellllon

You must be a "Band On The Run" fan......

Hi Helenwheels,

It appears the conversation is in a lull at the moment, but I just thought I could add a little something here.

You compared your husband to the child that has the temper tantrum and the parent who tries a whole slew of goodies with infrequent and short-lived success. Well, let's take that analogy one step farther....

My mom always taught me that when a child is having a temper tantrum, you step over them, leave the room and do your best to ignore it until it passes. And for the picky eater? Gotta love my mom's solution..."this is what's for dinner. If you don't like it, you don't have to eat it. This isn't a restaurant. You have a choice...eat what I fix or don't eat at all."

That said, obviously your husband isn't a child (although I KNOW how it feels when your H is acting like a child), so you don't have the authority to enforce a rule like a parent does. But you can make a choice not to feed the temper tantrum by trying to find the right goodie. My suggestion? The next time he starts the bait and switch routine, say (calmly and respectfully), "I'm sorry, I don't mean any disrespect, but I'm feeling very confused. When we talked about ENs, I understood that you wanted A. I'm trying my very best to do that for you because I love you and I care about our relationship. What I'm hearing now is that you want B (or whatever). I have a genuine desire to meet your ENs, but I feel like you aren't sure of them either. Why don't we take a break from this discussion and talk about it later?" Then quietly and gracefully STEP OVER HIM AND LEAVE THE ROOM! Maybe he really is playing off your giver, changing his needs frequently enough to keep you guessing all the time. He may not even be aware that's what he's doing, but IMHO, he's taking the inch and stretching it a mile.

I just thought of an anology that I think describes this very well. It's the little boy sitting behind you in class who's pulling your hair. As long as it gets a rise out you, he finds pleasure in doing it and that keeps him motivated. If you simply ignore it, it's no fun for him anymore and he stops. I guess what I'm saying is, take away the reward. Don't stop meeting the ENs he gave you originally . Do it with a good and loving attitude and don't forget the smile. When he attempts to change his mind at the spur of the moment, make it clear that you understand that needs may change from time to time, and if he wants to re-negotiate the ENs, you're open to that, but not in the heat of the moment. ENs should be discussed, and how you can meet them should be negotiated using the rules of negotiation. If your H resorts to blame and/or selfish demands, I'd say it's time for negotiations to be suspended. If you're able to stop yourself from dancing this dance with him a time or two, you just might get his attention.

Good Luck,

Jen

Pep-
"Band on the Run" fan? Never was a big Beatles or McCartney fan....Although I heard some old Nitty Gritty Dirt Band stuff on the radio today that made me smile....

Jen-
Hi! Glad to meet you! Did I see you chatting on a thread over on the EN board? I recently read a thread over there I think...where some W's were discussing H's that sure sounded a lot like mine...but I'll be durned if I can find it again...

I do understand what you are saying...and have been taking away the "rewards" as you say....to stop "buying in" when I'm the only one paying, so to speak...respectfully dis-engaging as soon as he starts the "bait-n-switch" as you very accurately have labeled it....

Sometimes it's pure bait-n-switch....but more typically it's not the EN that changes, it's that I haven't done it "perfectly" or he'd like to "micro-manage" my efforts....gotta follow his method....mindless robot following his directions sort of approach....or any combination of these or other tactics.....and he has more, but I'm too mind-mushed right now to think of others....

What is happening very clearly is this....every time that I stop the dance, he's getting angrier than the time before....I feel critical mass approaching quickly....

This time, I'm no longer afraid of what the inevitable meltdown might cause or expose...My POV is this...either he can get a grip, grow up and plug into this, with honesty and sincerity and willigness or I'm outta here....prolly a huge LB that fits under several categories, I'm sure...but I just can't take this any more!

After (at least)2 OW's in the last 9-10 months....my self respect, self esteem and self image are pretty fragile, that is when they are not completely shattered....and dealing with this leaves me no energy toward healing....

History says that when he feels this threatened, or abandoned depending on how it's viewed... he'll act out, or stage a pre-emptive strike and attack...and in the past he's done this by acting out sexually....my view is that this serves for him the double purpose of hurting me and making him feel better at the same time...

Now again...to his credit ( I think) twice in the last 2 days, he's tried to relieve the "pressure" by approaching me for sex, as opposed to another...in my opinion...to use that "chemistry" to keep me hooked in....

This option is preferred over OW, of course, but by him making it very clear that it's just sex, no emotions wanted or tolerated....to lower me to just a "receptacle"....don't wanna go there again...tried that in the interest of "meeting his need" and was left feeling angry, hurt, used and confused....

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, so I'll quit before I get any further behind.....

Helen

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

Sneaking in for a minute....it's been a wierd, wild day in Wheels' world....I'll be back ASAP...

Helen

I posted my ?? over on JFO forum also and asked Cerri to comment....here's the linky...

Cerri- Humbly requesting your comments to POJA and negotiation thread.....

Still chewing over and digesting her reply and comments....thought that they might be helpful over here, too....

And more of my story as background....why we are stalled about this POJA thing....from my point of view, anyways....

All comments and ideas eagerly awaited..at this point, I ain't got much left to lose.....bring 'em on!!

Helen

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>