Welcome to your Marriage Builders thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Rushed....

I have no damn "wisdom" ... I just love people.

Pep

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Ok, now I’m embarrassed.

But I’ll put aside my hesitation and fear. I was reluctant because I was not sure how to be comfortable with broadcasting my personal experience to such a wide audience. So this is a huge leap of faith for me, please bear with me. I’m thinking what you proposed TMD, maybe we’ll both gain some understanding, not just to our husband/wife, but ourselves, and this crazy thing called marriage. Pepperband, and other wise Mbers will be there to see us through.

Give me a moment to compose my story (still at work). Will post as soon as I have something coherent.

Don't worry about being coherent .... LOL!! We're all blathering fools together!

Once you stick your big toe in .... the water's fine.

Pepper, how did you get to be so cool and strong?

Wangi .... obviously you missed my <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> comments about more tongue ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

But, thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hopeless - with no intention of letting go…it’s just like something my WH has demonstrated to me in too many ways. Every gesture he made was a calculated one to keep her in his life, though superficially they appear to be sincere efforts in favor of the marriage. That was why I suspected TMD’s indirect way of maintaining contact with his OW. I had too many experiences with that. I was not cynical by nature. In fact I think I was trusting to a point of being gullible. That was abused many times. And with each revelation and confrontation it was met with the obligatory “I lied because I didn’t want to hurt you…” Being a cynic is not a choice, but just a way to survive.

I found TMD’s story fascinating because my WH also has someone he refuses to let go. I’m sorry TMD but while I appear reserved here but when WH and I confront each other I’m anything but cool and silent. I’m angry and hurt and accusatory, probably more like your wife. I say things that are totally not productive. He believes I should be more understanding and open with his love and attachment to someone else. And when I refused, or challenged him, he made it pretty clear our marriage was hopeless, yet letting go of her is never an option. Oh he says he would let go, for almost a year he’s been saying that. But he refuses to validate any of my effort to salvage the marriage, simply because I still refuse to accept him loving another woman.

Some other info: WH works with OW closely. We have 2 boys, ages 5 and 3. I took the boys and left in May. We are in contact mainly in regards to kids issues. He told me numerous times we should divorce.

Told ya my story is familiar and boring…

Wangi I’ve followed your story too. I find your latest post inspiring. Keep being strong, and keep telling me how you do it…

You know when you replied to my WH-"The Blah34!(?)" I used to say to myself "Hmmm...Pepp is tough on WH" but I liked them all, Orchid's replies too,I wish I could be tough like you guys,WH used to say I am "too strong" for him? Though you guys were tough on WH,but meant well and MB is to help building,right? I don't have much hope on WH,but I learn to move on no matter what,thanks to tough doughs@MB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You guys help bring back some smiles I had lost along the way,throughout the dday. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

RF,thanks for even reading my boring story..you know what,I just read yours,sounded very similar as mine,just like the one I posted couple weeks ago,if I meddled in WH's A,our M is over,now I do not even bother/worry about those two,I live my life and I love my career,I can only control my own behaviors,so why worry if they made it or
not,after all the foundation of their A base on
lies and betrayal,why waste energy? Now,I feel so much better,feel like a new person and I intend to keep it this way,thanks to all the MBers
So RF,in time you will too. Keep posting,OK. And;
you are not alone!

Thanks Pepp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

OK... I'm here because I was invited by Rushed Fool.... Is the Elvis song their theme song RF? Just wondering.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rushed fool:
<strong>Hopeless - with no intention of letting go…it’s just like something my WH has demonstrated to me in too many ways. Every gesture he made was a calculated one to keep her in his life,

</strong> I must clarify for my own part that I made no calculated effort to keep my OW in my life until about 6 years ago. I'll admit to the possible unconscious holding on... I would have thought nothing more of it than memories... albeit pleasant ones. Those damnable synapses firing under certain stimuli.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Though now... I will admit to increased calculation over the last few months since the A broke open. prior to that, it was nothing more than looking online once or twice a year to see if she had joined classmates.com. <strong>

though superficially they appear to be sincere efforts in favor of the marriage. That was why I suspected TMD’s indirect way of maintaining contact with his OW.

</strong> You were not too far off base. The thought had occurred to me. I honestly didn't see her coming in though... and I also didn't expect the attention the thread received. I actually DID get alot of value from it. ARK's last post just floored me.

...had to go for a while there... My son had just gotten home and I had a few G.I. Joe minutes with him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> before I went to see the counselor...

OK.. So insincere efforts on my part for the marriage….??? I sincerely can find no genuine feeling or desire in my heart at this time to want to try anymore with my W. I’m doing it because I believe I owe her the effort … insincere as it may be… I feel – or rather don’t feel - anything. It’s not that I don’t want to feel something… I simply don’t. OK? Any correlation there to you and yours?

The counseling session was more of the same. She told me that I need to “decide not to decide right now.” And that “that’s OK.” The OW’s counselor told her the same thing early on. Must be a mantra of some sort --- decide not to decide --- decide not to decide -- Huuuummmmmm… (monks chanting)

She also told me to get away to be alone for a three or four days… she told me not to bring my phone…. I still have it with me 24X7 in case the OW calls. Pathetic eh? Yeah I know. Is your H in counseling? Just one on one? Not MC per se. This was my first time the counselor actually spoke. I wanted to keep talking with her…. It’s like… just when you begin to make progress, it’s over. Then a week goes by and everything changes and you start over…. Sheeesh!

Anyway… so I’m dieing to hear what you have to say. Bring it on. I’ll answer any and all questions point blank and honestly. You have to do the same though or we gain nothing in this effort.

No hard feeling here… just honesty… we are safe here…

THAT is sincere.

-TMD

[qb]

-TMD

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

Rushed .....

YOU already gave all MBers some words of wisdom straight from your fingertips.....

"This is a huge leap of faith for me"

That's where the good stuff is Rushed .... it's located somewhere after that huge leap.

Congratulations on YOUR leap.

>>> applause <<<

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper I will have you know i am the queen blather...and my crown looks marvelous on me if I do say so....

rushed fool...
change is in the air....

Take a step back for one minute just look at he insanity of what this man is saying to his WIFE

part of me wants to hurl...(I know it hurts to the core...)...but a bigger part can't help but laugh at the insanity of it....

it's insane ludacrousy at best...painful at its worst...

BUT imagine the next time he says something like that...just doubling over in laughter..imagine his reaction!!!!

Orchid is the queen of babble (as in babbling back to insane WS babble...and looks really really good in her crown....

search her posts on reverse learn how to speak it right back to the sender...

Examples of reverse babble: (blessings to you Orchid...)

WS: I need my own space.

Reverse babble (RB): Yes you do.

WS: I love you but I am not in love with you.

RB: Yes, me too.

WS: You need to move on.

RB: Yes I do. Here is a list of what I need.
1. All bills paid
2. New home, new furniture, etc.
3. New car
4. All Ens met for entire family
5. Children's education all paid for
6. Guaranteed alimony for life
7. Guarantee that you will never be difficult
to deal with.
8. WS meet with Steve/Jennifer or MC and
then show family how WS will keep the
family safe from any harm.
9. WS guarantee he/she will be there to
support family through good times and bad
10. WS never demand anything other than what
the family requests.
11. WS not put demands on family or stress them
out in any way shape or form.
those above are priceless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Quit power struggling and do not for one iota of a second let him convince you that irrational thinking is rational.

It is a great defense mechanism of WS...to attempt to convince others that threaten their "world" that unrealistic and stupid thoughts are true and acceptable...

they aren't....but you can't argue them so don't...

Part of reverse babble is to agree, then present something while the WS may be in a state of confusion or wonderment (shocked or confused at your being agreeable). Get in your point and them exit ASAP. Don't say too much. Sometimes I used to nod yes and say no or visa versa. Sounds silly? Well my H was sooo much in the fog, he would just shake his head and walk away. About 2 hours to 2 weeks later I would get a response.

I learned not to take his babble to heart. Eventually I learned to put back some of his responsibility on him.

example:

WS: Go get the D. I don't want to be married to you anymore.

RB: Me too. Go get the D.

WS: Why won't you talk to me? (I was in plan B). Don't you love me?

RB: Hm.... I don't know. Let me get back to you on that.

WS: Where is all the $$ I gave you?

RB: I don't know.

WS: Do you want me to come back?

RB: I don't know.

Validate yourself rushed fool...you are worthy of respect and you are doing and facing things you never imagined...draw strength from each day you get through....

he says....I lied because I didn’t want to hurt you....
babble back....

Is that going to be an olympic sport coming up...cause I think you could get a gold medal in it, definately a bronze.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !!!!!!!!!!!

small actions that find control for you...
small actions changes in you that ground you back in the real world...

change is in the air..
ARK

Sorry if I’m slow to respond. I don’t normally get a chance to log on at home (2 very active boys) so I have to wait until I’m at work. Of course work place is not the best place to write about such emotional issues.

TMD yes what you said is basically what my H is saying to me. Does not feel anything, does not WANT to feel anything. To me is another way to tell me that he likes what he’s feeling currently. Yes we’ve been through MC, I stopped it after I realized he was sabotaging the sessions by covering up the truth. It was blatant enough even the therapist warned us sternly that if one of us continued to lie then he did not want his time wasted. I’m not in IC neither is he. I’m thinking about it.

TMD you talk about how you don’t believe in learning to love someone. Could you tell me if it’s possible to “un”learn to love someone, or to learn to “un”love someone. Maybe both are equally difficult, you can’t learn to love your wife and can’t learn to not love your OW. I wish I could stop loving him. This is hardest part, and it hits me at the most unexpected moments. It’s like I would walk around the busy streets (I live in SF)feeling aimless and would stop at an intersection, I would look around and feel all my pain and joy and struggle leading up to this moment, surging and overtaking me, and I look at people standing around waiting for the light to change, and I look up and find a patch of blue sky and I just want to scream “you don’t love me, you don’t love me…” and let it resonate between the buildings.

Ark thank you. TMD is so right about you. Your advice is constructive and concrete, and may even be fun in practicing.

Hey RF,I thought I could smell the city you live in for I am in SF too...maybe we can have our own support group here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Wangi, I thought I read some where you were in CA, but did not realize you are also in SF. Do you mind emailing me at notmesf@yahoo?

RF,yes,SF,the fog city(hmmm,why is it so foggy here?)I will email you. I work in the Financial District,if you were to be in the same area,maybe we can have lunch someday? Ok. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

How very cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rushed fool:
<strong>Sorry if I’m slow to respond. I don’t normally get a chance to log on at home (2 very active boys) so I have to wait until I’m at work. Of course work place is not the best place to write about such emotional issues.

TMD yes what you said is basically what my H is saying to me. Does not feel anything, does not WANT to feel anything.

</strong> For what it’s worth.. I honestly wish I could feel that NEED to make this all heal. Everything in me wants the OW. Plain and simple. Something deep inside me is really pissed off at ME for doing all of this. For hurting people I love. I DO love my wife and son. There is no doubt of that in my heart. Even when she rails at me… I still love her. I just don’t feel the desire to go back to her. I know that is because I see more hope in my feelings for the OW… as irrational as the world tells me that is… it’s where I am. My “withdrawl” is now becoming something I refer to as numbing. I think it’s a natural physiological response to extended periods of emotional stress. Maybe you can relate. … I digress though… truth is… I want to feel. Maybe I will once the numbness fades. Maybe your H will too. My heart is too full of the OW to have room for my W right now… truth… irrational maybe… but truth nonetheless. I believe that is where he is too. <strong>

To me is another way to tell me that he likes what he’s feeling currently. Yes we’ve been through MC, I stopped it after I realized he was sabotaging the sessions by covering up the truth. It was blatant enough even the therapist warned us sternly that if one of us continued to lie then he did not want his time wasted. I’m not in IC neither is he. I’m thinking about it.

</strong>OK… this might make some people mad… but we’re being open here… and I don’t want you to shut down later when this comes out…. In my thread I said I received the N/C letter June 20. That part is true. There HAS been contact since though. I am on Day 8 of N/C… again… for the record... I promised the OW I would not contact her... I also promised I would never turn her away again. So when she initiates, I receive... eagerly. This is the the OW's most successful N/C run though. Truth. So this is why my heart is still so full… I believe… honestly though… I’ve been numb to the highly charged emotion since those few days after the big letter. So the repeated contact from the OW has been relatively easy for me to deal with. (I hear the questions… the contact is all based around making the N/C work … how hard it is… etc…) The anxiety kicked in after that though… hence the meds… so I’m pretty screwed up physically… my brain just doesn’t tell me about it until my heart starts racing for no reason. Weird stuff. Anyhow. My W won’t do counseling until I say I’m letting go completely. Kinda follows your situation I guess. I’m scared to let go. Truth. Part of me says… “she’s never coming back to you….” Part of me say… “What if you give up and let go too soon and then she comes back and you’re gone… and in my situation (gone again.. like all those years ago when I should have fought and I just walked away… there’s historical baggage there ya know..) primarily though…. I just can’t imagine letting go. <strong>

TMD you talk about how you don’t believe in learning to love someone. Could you tell me if it’s possible to “un”learn to love someone, or to learn to “un”love someone.
</strong> Nope and Nope. Like I said. I love my wife; that’s why I married her. I believed I would NEVER see the OW again. I moved on… at least in mind and body… My heart took a while. I did fall in love with my wife…. There was room for that… No…RF… If it was ever true, it doesn’t go away. If you stop watering the flower though…. It can whither away… and in the worst of cases… finds other means of sustenance. <strong>

Maybe both are equally difficult, you can’t learn to love your wife and can’t learn to not love your OW.

</strong> My love has always been there for my wife… she just stopped doing the things that made it a living thing. My love has always been there for the OW… It just faded with time and out of necessity. I know ARK will have issues with this next statement… But it’s what I have always believed in my life.

Love Is.

Learning love… ludicrous… Oh LOOK! I’ve just completed my doctorate on love. See? Here are my credentials? I’m now qualified to love you… May I see your credentials please? OOOOooowww… no credentials? Ummmmnnn sorry… you’re underqualified. Oh and By The Way… this degree requires continuing education.

PLEASE! I know it’s an exegeration… but it makes my point. You either love or you don’t. Even though your H has hurt you… you can’t turn off the Love switch can you? Nope. Why? Because love IS. Plain and simple. I don’t know your whole story… but I question my W’s motives for marrying me now because I wonder how she could pull the rug out from under me… all of it… I was sleeping in our bed… alone.. by year 7. That was the last vestige of intimacy left. It started before then… but I was alone. I got used to it I guess. She actually bought me porn and said… “here… take care of it.” I don’t know what I thought she was doing… It wasn't out of spite on her part... she knew I didn't believe in that stuff though... so... anyway... I just thought it would pass. NOT!

I can feel 2Long throwing his 'revisionist history' darts. Look... unless you have an objective scribe taking notes on your life day in and day out, you have only your fallible human mind to recall that past and assemble it based on the cumulative compilation of your logical, spiritual and emotional building blocks. When someone reminds you of something you'd forgotten from your past, your memory of that is now irrevocably revised. Human memories are, by definition, revisionist history.

I don’t want to stop loving my W… Thought never occurred to me. I’m just beyond the point of return. And this happened long before I saw the OW again. Here’s MY take on it… My W KNEW I loved her…. And that was enough for her to say yes. Maybe she thought she could LEARN to love me… given time… NOPE..

Love Is. <strong>

I wish I could stop loving him. This is hardest part, and it hits me at the most unexpected moments. It’s like I would walk around the busy streets (I live in SF)feeling aimless and would stop at an intersection, I would look around and feel all my pain and joy and struggle leading up to this moment, surging and overtaking me, and I look at people standing around waiting for the light to change, and I look up and find a patch of blue sky and I just want to scream “you don’t love me, you don’t love me…” and let it resonate between the buildings.

</strong> My W says she loves me. She says she just isn’t the kind of person who’s comfortable showing it. Odd that she has no trouble receiving it. I don’t have the mental capacity to understand how you can love someone and lack the ability to show it. So my W thinks I never loved her… and I think my W never loved me. How tragic is that? ARK says almost with glee… “change is coming” though, in my mind, accompanying the words is a sorrowful orchestral movement in a minor key… It foreshadows change indeed.

-TMD <strong>

Ark thank you. TMD is so right about you. Your advice is constructive and concrete, and may even be fun in practicing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Check out the story posted by adgirl48 titled - "The Necklass - something to think about"

"You either love or you don't."

Really?

How can the object of your love tell the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"You either love or you don't."

Really?

How can the object of your love tell the difference?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all due respect Pep - Enough with the obtuse and the mundane.

-TMD