ZM,

I will be praying for you, too. Just remember to stay on point, that when he can recommit to the relationship - in a REAL WAY - you will then commence communications. No more of this baloney about "I have to first forgive myself."

Often, WS's whose spouses are in Plan B will try every ruse to string you back into the loop so they can sit on the fence longer. They WANT their needs met while they sit on the fence.

Agree with you 100% about not attending the company event as a family. Hope you are doing well today!

Thanks MelodyLane and ISGirl (you responded on your thread)....

I am just wondering now if I should send an e-mail to him tomorrow re-iterating the only circumstances under which we can speak...Very nicely say something like :I am so glad you called me, but after much thought I want to make sure that you understand the only boundary I have set for our conversations. If your intention is not to discuss our Marriage and where you want to go with it then I cannot meet with you. You know I love you and want you home, but until you can re-commit to working on our marriage as well as yourself then we need to remain with only having contact regarding Zach. I am sure you will understand, and hope to hear from you today if this was your intention. I love you, D"

A couple things made me jump at the chance to talk with him; #1, he called me to come over after his work meeting and I am about 20 min. out of his way. #2 It has been a long time since he called me to initiate conversation. This was "Can I come over and talk tomorrow night",this from a guy who has been very clear on avoiding direct conversations in the past. So I of course immediately assumed his intention is to talk either good or bad about our M, and good or bad I want the conversation to happen....What do you think???

ZM,

I'm kinda of two minds on this one: while I like your suggestion of sending the email, you have already agreed to meet him and talk. To send the email now might send a message that you are getting cold feet or that you are not as interested in working on the R as he might be.

You can always handle it tomorrow, in person, in the same way. If the conversation isn't going where it needs to go, remind him, gently of course, of the conditions that are necessary to rebuild the marriage. Keep it short, sweet, and to the point. YOU must control where the conversation is going. Don't let it get off track.

Yes, you want him home, but you want it done right. No more false starts, false hopes.

You will be in my thoughts and prayers tonight.

Thanks ISGirl, I have thought a little (as you can tell, I seem to react then think), and you are right, if anything I should have said something on the phone immediately to eliminate any confusion. I am not going into tomorrow night with any great expectations BUT I do have good feeling that the conversation will be about our R (Good or bad), because he is going to pretty good lengths to come see me, otherwise he would have just said "I'll call you tomorrow", for him to drive all the way out here at 8 or 9pm (he is up for work at 530-600am), then he has something to say-but guess what-I am anticipating good OR bad...either at this point is a start...right???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ISGirl:
<strong>

You can always handle it tomorrow, in person, in the same way. If the conversation isn't going where it needs to go, remind him, gently of course, of the conditions that are necessary to rebuild the marriage. Keep it short, sweet, and to the point. YOU must control where the conversation is going. Don't let it get off track.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agree with everything ISgirl said. You have already agreed to this and if he comes and starts blathering on about "needing to forgive himself", blah, blah, firmly end the conversation with, "when you are ready to work on this marriage and recommit, give me a call. Until then, there will be no contact. I have to move forward"

You can probably EXPECT, ZM, that this talk is another attempt to drag you back in so he can fence sit for another 6 months with your blessing. THAT IS TO BE EXPECTED! They all do this. It is part of their testing the waters phase. You have to just make sure IT DOESN'T WORK or you will be back to square 1! Make sure you are firm, non-combative and ON POINT. Politely end the conversation if he starts with the fogtalk.

P.S. even if this is a fogtalk session, it can be VERY PRODUCTIVE if he sees your resolve to NOT tolerate the status quo. Just view it as a stepping stone along the way.

Got it girls!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> May the force be with me...Will update tomorrow or Tues....

D (thanks again for you support)...

ZM,

We are here for you, and cheering you on!

Just do yourself a favor, as Melody says, expect that this is just a testing of the waters. That way, if he really is ready to get back into recovery, you will be pleasantly surprised. But prepare for the fog!!!!

What time zone are you in? If you meet him at 8-9pm, I guess many of us won't know what is going on until Tuesday.

...we anxiously await your update.

Prayers and positive thoughts!

ISG

No need to wait, I guess, I e-mailed my H to ask him if he would rather me get a babysitter for an hour so we could leave, he e-mailed back and said that he just wanted to apologize for the past few months, been thinking a lot lately and wanted to clear us up. So I politely responded back
"Then I guess there is no reason to meet? Thanks for calling yesterday though. Apology accepted, but it still doesn't change the fact that we are to have no contact until you are ready to re-commit to working on us or you.

I will contact you tomorrow about Zach, I am going for dinner with Danielle so can pick him up at your place. I am not sure what you wanted to say but of course if it just an apology then that's good enough."

So I guess it is a bust, obviously the apology was important enough to him to go to some lengths to meet but I cannot let him come over and try to wipe away all our problems the past few months. I hope I didn't come across mad, I really re-read it a few times to make sure that wasn't the interpretation....Any way, have a good day....

Bummer!

But are you sure that it was not his way of leading into the reconciliation talk? Men have a tough time doing relationship-speak. Maybe he wanted to apologize for the past, then move to the future.

Did you get a response to the email you sent to him?

Meanwhile, if I may...my BIL talked to WH last night. BIL has been listening to my story and the whole family is, as you might guess, in disbelief and extremely upset over WH's actions. After the talk last night, BIL emailed me and said he believed that the no communication with each other was not necessarily the right thing for us now, that we needed to sit down and have a heart-to-heart and discuss our grievances and try to work on the M. He says he thinks he convinced H to make this conversation happen...believes the longer it is prolonged the longer it will take to heal.

Now this is contrary to MB philosophy and the whole Plan B. But I am wondering if perhaps WH opened up to BIL about what some of his issues are with our M and maybe, just maybe we could accomplish something if we talked.

What do you think?

Hey there, I am pretty sure it was just to apologize, we spoke later (oops) and he said that he has been doing a lot of thinking and realizes he has been such a dink over the past few months , but although I appreciate it, it doesn't mean anything without actions behind it( I could steal and apologize after every time and it wears thin after a while). He said that he has an assessment appt for a counsellor tonight at 930 and he wants to get his head straight for us...It is coming down to me possibly leaving my job because I can't stand to see him there, and he feels he should quit, after everything he has done. I said f*** u, I don't want you jumping in and trying to fix things that are not important to me, I want us (major LB I Know), but I was so mad, I told him this is the exact reason why we can't have contact, because of my emotions. ANy way, I've got some thinking to do about my career, we are both in jobs we love but I can't stand to see him.....We'll see what the counselling brings-he said if the counsellors says it is a good idea, we will go together...

As for your H, I think if you both go into with the same notion that is great. How is this going to be set up? Have some guidelines in place first then you know if that is where the conversation is going then it is worth it right?

I'll keep you posted....

<small>[ August 11, 2003, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
[QB]

So I guess it is a bust, obviously the apology was important enough to him to go to some lengths to meet but I cannot let him come over and try to wipe away all our problems the past few months. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you handled this really well. It sends a strong message that you are serious about not wasting your time anymore. You stayed on message and conveyed that well. I like what you did here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he has been such a dink over the past few months , but although I appreciate it, it doesn't mean anything without actions behind it( I could steal and apologize after every time and it wears thin after a while).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly right. Talk is cheap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said that he has an assessment appt for a counsellor tonight at 930 and he wants to get his head straight for us..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This might be another tactic to stall and stay on the fence. I would not put much hope in the counseling angle at all, and I would not let him pull you from your Plan B with it. This is a pretty common WS tactic to pull you back in and buy some time.

Also, what is "not straight" about his head? What does this mean?

Can you get into counseling with Harley? He is sometimes phenomenally effective and well worth the money.

Hi MelodyLane,

Thanks for your response...His head straight is being able to forgive himself..I know what our thoughts are on forgiving and making amends, but he solely taking this responsibility on him...So Although I hate it and disagree with it this is how he handles(just like we all handle grief over the loss of a loved one differently)....

I am sticking to what I know until I see some action, so we will see....As for Dr. Harley, it is about $250 Cdn plus the long distance charge-which could be high, I would definitely consider it, maybe I should bring it up to my H??? What do you think??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him this is the exact reason why we can't have contact, because of my emotions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

And therein lies the lesson for each one of us. I guess until we are far enough into Plan B to be rational, to be unemotional, to really, really know what we want, we run the risk of speaking with our hearts and not our heads.

Yeah, Melody the appointment with the counselor might be a smokescreen, but I hope it is for real and I hope it gives him some direction.

Zach's Mom...with regard to my H contacting me, I have serious doubts he will, but just in case, I will take your advice to heart.

ISG

No, the Harley counseling is $185 per session and there's a toll-free number to call in, at least there is with Jennifer. And when she is not stateside, she calls us.

But I am in Canada, I think it is different???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>

I am sticking to what I know until I see some action, so we will see....As for Dr. Harley, it is about $250 Cdn plus the long distance charge-which could be high, I would definitely consider it, maybe I should bring it up to my H??? What do you think??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would get an appointment for just yourself first to see what Harley says about it. He is so well versed in resolving marriage issues, that often he can do in 1/4th the time what others do or never acheive. The Harley's are also very pro-marriage.

The danger with most MC's is that they are not pro-marriage, but very quick to jump to divorce. Some counselors even cause MORE damage to the situation, so it makes me nervous that he is going to some counselor. There are some very bad and destructive counselors out there.

Harley is genius for penetrating smokescreens and that is why I think he would be ideal for your situation. There is something with your H that just doesn't add up to me.

That is very scary that a lot of counsellors are pro-divorce.....I am hesitant to try myself because I know where I want to be and how etc, he is the one who needs to be led by the hand...

I can't explain my H to you, I can understand how this may seem like there is more to it than there is, believe me I have tried to see something. But honestly I see him and talk to him and I think his problem is depression to a small degree.
If you made a mistake that you had believed all your life was one of the worst sins, how would you deal with it?? Maybe as a woman differently, but he has never known how to get in touch with his feelings, so this is hard for him. I am not making excuses because I too believe he is going about all wrong, but I also see how he is lost in himself...He is alone most of the time if he is not with our son, he works and sleeps and stays in his apt. How do I know that?? I just do, somehow I just do...He is not the same person he was 2 years ago, he is hopeless.....)Or at least feels that way)....

ZM, while you do know where you stand, I think Harley could be a GREAT HELP in guiding you in a break through with your H. The entire purpose would be to guide you in resolving this problem and help you understand your H's motives. He has seen it ALL. He is one of the most effective MC's in the US. It's just something to think about.

I admit I am completely baffled by your H. I know that you see his demeanor, but his words just don't match his actions and this is what is so confusing to me.

For example, if you accidentally hit someone's car and smash the passengers up, if you are truly sorry, do you render aide or do you sit on the side of the road and have a massive pity party? Do you endulge yourself in your guilt and woe while your victim lays dying on the side of the road?

He is sitting on the curb endulging his guilt while you bleed to death. He refuses to call the ambulance until he "gets over his guilt." "I am not good enough to call the ambulance!" You are bleeding to death. But hey, he is sure sorry! Just not sorry enough to help you.

That is what it looks like when I look at it, ZM. And granted, I don't see the emotion in his tone or his depression. But I see yours. And I see a broken family that is suffering because of his actions.

When someone expresses sincerity and love in their words but expresses destruction and great harm in their actions, it makes me wonder what I am seeing. I tend to judge people by their actions, rather than their words because anyone can say words. What counts are actions.

Is he a conflict avoider?

<small>[ August 11, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

So, I finally got something to feel positive about, and I am going to enjoy this moment for a bit.....I just received an e-mail from my H asking if I could join him at this cousellors on Thursday at 4pm---DUH!!!! I of course hummed and hawed (yah right!!!), I said of course, no question, let him know how much this meant to me.... i am not sure if this seems as big of step to anyone else as it does me, but let me tell you, this is HUGE....He was so focused on this being his issue, let me do this on my own etc, and he has a hard enough time opening up without an audience....Any way--BIG STEP...Of course I can only keep my fingers crossed, this is a step in the right direction...Please no one ruin this moment with skepticism(no offense any one), I am going in with eyes wide open.....

Thought I would share that with you....
D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />