Ok, I have been talking to my H's friend who happens to be the OW's cousin, who she happens to live with. Which is how my H met her in the 1st place. Anyway, the friend is telling me that my H is telling all of them and their friends and the OW that he is done with me, that he is just waiting for the divorce (which hasn't even been filed yet), and that I am chasing him and won't leave him alone. I said that is so not true! He calls me the minute the OW goes to work (my H works 3 - 12 hour days a week as do I) and he either comes to my house or I go back to my old house. He's called me at work, something he's never done, just to tell me he loves me. He tells me he doesn't want a divorce and that she isn't right for him, but he can't hurt her by breaking it off because she's never hurt him. And I've hurt him by leaving him. So, last Saturday, the OW had to work from 10am to 3pm. She left for work a little after 9am, and he was at my house soon after. We made love and he fell asleep in my bed. I was cooking breakfast and noticed my digital camera on the counter, and took a pic of him asleep in my bed. I didn't do it at the time as a form a blackmail, and really don't intend to use it that way, but boy is it tempting. I just truly wanted a picture of my H. My camera stamps the date and time on the picture. It was 09:57 in the am....right before she started work. Ok, to make a long story short, I printed the picture out because my H's friend wanted to see it. Not that he didn't believe me, but because he just really needed to see it with his own eyes what my H is doing to the OW and to me. He looked at the picture and said, "You are an idiot if you go back to him. He is lying to everyone. He is playing games with you, her, your family, and mine too. You would really be a fool to take him back."

And most ppl after hearing my story say the same thing. And sometimes I agree. But I still love my H and I still feel that we can find the love that brought us together 14 years ago. And then the next minute I don't want him back, and then the next minute I do.

So many ppl tell me what I should do and what I shouldn't do. I am so confused in my own heart and mind that I am making myself sick. I am afraid that going back will not change anything. I am afraid that ending my marriage isn't the right thing to do. My H is a chronic liar. And I feel as if my whole marriage was based on lies. I feel as if I am slowly losing my mind.

I have tried to do Plan B, but he kept calling and coming over. And I gave in. Now today I haven't seen him or talked to him and it is killing me.

Wow, I have rambled so much, I probably should change the subject of this post, lol.

Anyway, there are very few ppl telling me to follow my heart, and more ppl telling me to divorce him and get on with my life. And I actually do know that I could do better than what I have in my H. He never was a financial provider...I did that. He was verbally abusive our entire marriage and still is. (and I dished out my own share of LB's too) But it doesn't mean that we didn't have very good times. We were each other's best friends. And I miss him terribly.

Ok, nuff for now. Guess I'm just venting here.

<small>[ August 02, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: deeplyhurting ]</small>

Deeply Hurting,

I am not going to tell you what I think you should do, as that is your decision. But I will offer my perspective on your situation... why should he give up the OW or you when the two of you have made it possible for him to have you both? He will not change nor choose between the two of you unless he is made to. Now you and only you can decide if having him when she isn't around is enough for you. Because unless he is forced to make a decision, things will not change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried to do Plan B, but he kept calling and coming over. And I gave in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you wanted to give in, because the simple solution would have been to not answer the phone and to not answer the door. I'm not saying you were wrong, only that I think you are so afraid of losing him completely that you are settling for what scraps he will give you. Again only you can decide if that is enough for you.

I think some time away from him would be good for you, because you need some time away from the situation to think about what it is you really want and what would be the most productive way of changing things.

Just my 2 cents. I do understand what it is to love someone that much. And as much as I miss my husband and want him back I don't think I could handle him making love to me right after he had just left the OW's bed over and over again.

Deeply Hurting,

I agree 100% with 1dayatatime about Plan B. Your H has no motivation to end things with OW. He is getting his needs met by 2 women. Who wouldn't want that? You are basically prolonging his affair by letting him come over.

Further, I would make sure that the OW got a picture of your H in your bed. You should be doing EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER to end thier affair. Mail it to her, whatever. I would make sure she got it.

Also, you know what he is like. You say that he has been an unreliable partner all along. You know he won't change, right? Has he also committed adultery before?

Melody,

I respectfully disagree about sending the photo. Isn't it reasonably certain the cousin will tell OW, anyway? At least she doesn't have to take the rap for contacting OW in such an inflammatory way. The only one who can end the A is her H.

Can I change your mind on this one?

AM, I don't see the problem with it at all. Like Harley says, you should do everything in your power to end the affair. She needs to expose the true nature of their relationship to the OW and this is a perfect way to do it.

It might be a short term love buster, but it helps in the long run, especially since it will infuriate the OW and, no doubt, cause big problems between them. If the cousin just "tells" her, the WS can just deny it and it does no good anyway without the actual proof.

The only one who can end the affair is her H, but she should certainly help things along by exposing his lies and making things difficult. It is a MB principle to do everything possible to help end the affair. One shouldn't sit around and take no action toward that goal.

<small>[ August 03, 2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I don't know your whole story, but I will say this. Family and friends often advise a rush to dump the WS...simply bcs they see you in pain and want to end that ASAP.

It is up to YOU to decide if you want the marriage..if he is really verbally abusive and a chronic liar, it is certainly a valid question to mull over, as it would take a good deal of change to really "fix" things. If you decide you do want the marriage, a good Plan B is probably your best hope. And keep in Plan B until he agrees not only to no-contact, but to a full recovery plan, or you will likely end up here again.

Kathi

Here's my two cents...
as if I keep anything to just two cents...

1. Quit talking to anyone except a few and I mean few chosen people that are close to you and can weather your own storms of fluctations and emotional shifts...all others are on their own...

do this because the WS often use "other people and what they think or know" as a catalyst to hinder recovery....
I can't face him or her...

let him involve who ever he chooses...you stay out of that...

I strongly recomend leaving OW cousins out of this...
He is not to be trusted..not because he introduced the two...but because they are family...and his allegance most likely is with the OW on some level...

If people approach you about not taking him back or whatever..don't engage...don't go in to detail...babble back...be funny be witty...be whatever...but don't drag it out with them...
it's none of their business and if it is people that persist and can potentially harm recovery...set limits...

what you should decided are things like no matter what you aren't going back to the type of marriage you had before...

that you aren't willing to live with certain behaviors...lying being a big one...

deeplyhurting I believe that our actions are what defines us...and what is extremely dangerous about the contact you are having with your husband in this situation is that your actions are accepting and facitlitating the exact behaviors you abhor in your own life/marriage...

It will become more difficult for you to work with your husband on the honesty issue when you engage in activities that are part of his lying to the OW>...follow me on this one ...because it is NOT fair...and I realize that..BUT it can really hurt and backfire on you in the end...

You want your husband to see the bigger picture here as so should you...
If he were to come back right now...what he has learned is that it is OK to be dishonest in certain situations with you...as long as your needs were being met....

I hope the last thing you want is him back right now the way he is...
that is your rock in this plan...
people say you shouldn't take him back...babble back with big eyes..and say ofcourse I wouldn't take him back as he is...I'm taking back the one I know exists inside ..when and if he decides life is more valuable than a pack of lies and dishonest behavior...

I would suggest a new plan b letter defining yourself and what things you are coming to learn really do hold great meaning and value...and that you believe that he to is worthy of these things....
and that it hurts to much to watch him continue to engage in behaviors that are so hurtful to sooo many people...and that his actions define him and that out of perserving your deep love for him you can no longer be part of those deceptions...for they scar him deeply...

Look at the time with him you have been having...bought at a price you are no longer willing to pay....

Look at the bigger picture of what type of marriage you desire and want with this man...
and make small movements that get your actions in line with that...

consider the 180's in the appearance of moving on...
answer the phone if you must...but be UNAVAILABLE>
if he comes over....YOU LEAVE...not in a fighting way...but in a unless your here because you have NCwith other woman and are in serious counselling for this or that..I don't have time for your lies and pain in my life right now...and get out...

don't look at his actions so much ...you can't change him..focus on yours...and when your interactions with him define or engage you in things that are in direct conflict with your beliefs..Don't go there....
and you might get his attention...no longer being a partner in crime...

ARK

Well, your advice is all very much appreciated. However, WS chose OW. It's all over now. I am defeated. After only 6 weeks he says he loves her more than he loves me. 14 years with this man means nothing to him. In one day he went from I love you and I don't want a divorce to get the papers. So, now the only thing left to do is move on. One minute at a time. And my heart is totally broken, there is nothing left. Now to get past this ultimate rejection and learn to move one somehow. My life as I knew it is now over. How long before this unbearable pain stops??????????????

In your signature line you say:

8/2/03 giving it all to God, knowing that with Him all things are possible

Don't forget what you wrote.

You either turn it over, or you don't.

If you surrender your power over to God, your reward will be peace.

Today, RIGHT NOW, sit at your computer and breathe in while you think to yourself:

"breathing in the peace of God"

and as you blow out air you think:

"breathing out fear and anxiety"

Do this 10 times.

Repeat every 15 minutes.

Repeat whenever you feel hopeless.

This exercise has gotten me through some terrible moments with our son.

This exercise has allowed me to remain sane in some insane conditions.

Peace and strenght be yours.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deeplyhurting:
<strong>Well, your advice is all very much appreciated. However, WS chose OW. It's all over now. I am defeated. After only 6 weeks he says he loves her more than he loves me.?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, no. It is far from over. There are people here who came from far worse situations who are happily married today. But you are PERPETUATING the situation by allowing him to come over and get his needs met.

You are perpetuating the situation by helping him conceal his contact from the OW. EXPOSE IT! Then move to Plan B. Stop meeting his needs. If he had truly chosen the OW, he wouldn't be coming to see you. And he will continue to do so as long as you let him.

Plan B will also help you withdraw and protect your heart. You will be in LESS PAIN after a few weeks of not seeing him, but it is your only hope in helping him end the affair. Help him end this affair, hurting. Go into Plan B and EXPOSE this to the OW.

And lastly, please calm down. You have a plan of attack here. It is very important that you don't give into your sense of panic. You need to follow your head right now and make decisive, thoughtful actions. You will be ok!

I'm not sure why you've gone to Plan B? It doesn't appear by your time line that you did a 6 month Plan A, which is the general amount of time Dr. Harley recommends.

I did Plan A for 18 months through 6 separations (H threatening divorce through most of them), so I know Plan A can be done while separated.

My H told the OW he was divorcing me and he NEVER saw a lawyer during their 18 month affair.

But first it sounds like you need to be sure that you want to save your marriage. If he isn't the man you want, he's been abusive and now unfaithful, you need to be sure that you do want him. And if you do that the 2 of you will need counseling and time to make the changes to have a healthy marriage.

My H & I went on to 7 separations, separating again after the PA was over. H was out of the house 14 out of 21 months, 2+ very bad years. We reconciled over 3 years ago and we have one of those happy marriages Melody Lane is referring to.

As you said, your H is waffling, saying one thing one day, something else the next day, one thing to the OW, another to you...this decision of his is far from being definite. Even if he actually begins the divorce, as I did in the 7th separation, divorce takes some time, even a 60 day no fault state like mine.

If you want your marriage, I think at this time you have more to gain from Plan A than you do from Plan B. But of course, it is your choice.

Melody Lane,
Maybe you didn't understand. My H told ME that it was over. I didn't initiate plan B fully. He told me last night that it was over and he wanted a divorce. She was sitting right next to him. I heard her talking in the background about the movie they were watching. Then he told her she is screaming and crying. (Meaning me) There is no more hope. He chose her, period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deeplyhurting:
<strong>Melody Lane,
Maybe you didn't understand. My H told ME that it was over. I didn't initiate plan B fully. He told me last night that it was over and he wanted a divorce. She was sitting right next to him. I heard her talking in the background about the movie they were watching. Then he told her she is screaming and crying. (Meaning me) There is no more hope. He chose her, period.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DH, I do understand and I am telling you it is not over. Do you know how many BS's we have here who have heard the same thing and are now happily reconciled? It ain't over so don't give up hope.

P.S. Lor has a good point, how long did you do Plan A? What brought you so quickly to Plan B? Have you been pleading and begging him the entire time he has been gone?

Wait, wait, wait: you said he said he wants "divorce and get the papers." No, no: HE gets the papers, HE does the work.

It's interesting he makes this announcement to you with her in the background. Was it said for her benefit? Did she force him to it?

By the way, when people ask me, astonished, if I would take my H back, I tell them I refuse to consider offers that aren't on the table. Why should I think about terms and conditions when he's still "happy" with OW? What a waste of time!

Well, he came by this morning to bring my son's scooter and PS2 back. The problem is that I talked to his friend and his friend told him everything. That is what made him mad. That is what caused him to say the things he said. When he saw my anguish, he held me so tight, and told me it's not over yet. He kissed me and told me he does love me and that he doesn't love her. So yes, I think a lot of what he said in her presence was for her benefit. He said he told her everything. He said he told her that he's been seeing me. But he told me now to just leave him alone and let things be for awhile. So, here I am again, hoping and praying that we can be together again someday. And AM, you are right, if he wants the divorce, he will have to file it. I won't. I love my H with all my heart and soul. And that will never change.

DH,
WS's don't like having the extent of their duplicity known--not to the BS, not to the OP and not to others. One of the things it does is inject reality into their lives. And, reality is good.

You didn't do anything wrong in talking to his friend, it is your H's actions that are wrong.

It sounds like you would be open to reconciliation if your H was as well.

I would suggest that if/when you see your H, and since you have a child it is difficult to completely avoid, that you don't show him that anguish. Tears, crying, the screaming you did on the phone, will likely make him feel more guilty and he could avoid you because of his guilt.

You didn't say anything about Plan A or B...but I would still advise Plan A because I don't see in your time line that you have done Plan A for a solid amount of time. You can leave him alone, you don't have to contact him...but if you do talk to him because of the child, no lovebusters.

He hasn't made up his mind, he hasn't taken divorce action, he's still willing to tell you he loves you...it's far from completely over. I know from your perspective it doesn't look good, and you certainly don't want a time line like mine...but time does change the circumstances.

My H who walked out on me 7 times...is a great and loving husband today.

People definitely thought I was crazy to wait him out or take him back, but MBers didn't think so. If you feel so strongly that you will always love your H with all your heart & soul, isn't it worth some effort now?

If nothing else, you won't have any regrets that you didn't do what you could to make reconciliation possible, even if you don't get the outcome you hope for.