Well, as the title says…I need help. For all of you that I have helped, I hope that what I am going through will help you understand that Mortarman is fallible too. And that this whole process is not a smooth road. So, let me get to it.

My wife and I had a huge blow-up last night. For the last month or so, it has been building. Small little arguments over finances or SF. Nothing huge…but enough to keep us stuck in our current position. Well, it blew up last night…and I have gotten myself to a point where I wonder if I even want this to continue. Let me give you a short back drop.

Since my wife has come home, things have gotten steadily worse for me. She was affectionate the first week. Even some SF. She had pulled out Dr. Harley's books the first night home and we went through the EN questionnaires. But, for what I attributed as school, she was very busy over the next month and a half, winding down her nursing school. So I backed way off trying to move anything forward. But right after the second week of April, SF stopped completely (and hasn't continued to this day). I held back, figuring the stress of completing her degree was overwhelming her.

After graduation, I tried to get her to re-engage working on us, especially since she had a month and a half off before starting her new job. But she really didn't. Sure, over this time, she has re-engaged being Mom again, at least to some extent. She has spent time after moving home, setting our home up, making it look awesome. She has pulled her weight around the house, and has been engaged enough in the family that she wants everyone to be together and spend time together at the movies, at home…anywhere. All good stuff, that really continue to this day.

So, what's the problem you ask? It is that she has shown NO effort toward working on our relationship, at least in meeting any of my needs. Sure, like last Friday, we have spent time together. And I have thoroughly enjoyed it. We bought food out to take home, rented some movies, bought some snacks…and then went home without the kids (left them at my Mom's house) and spent the evening with me holding her on our couch while we watched a movie and ate. Like I said…I wouldn't trade it for the world. But as we have done things like this, I have started really falling in love with my wife again. And with that is the desire to be with her intimately again. SF included. But every time I make a "move", every time I broach the subject, it ends up with her chastising me for pushing things. That she wants to build a relationship first, so she says.

So, I have tried to back off, even though as a man, SF goes along with building this relationship…with building love. It is hard for a man to get closer to a woman without having those feelings. I have explained this to her, but her answer is always "Well, what do you want me to do? Just lay back? I have no feelings that I want to be with you that way." She has gone on to say that many of the things I did while she was screwing around with the OM are now still keeping her anger alive. That might be just a smoke screen…I don't know.

Anyway, at times, she seems to want to engage me somewhat she makes some effort at asking me if I still want to go to a counselor. Or she has started several tape series on marriage from some different churches we have gone to. And she will come to me afterwards and talk to me about what she has found out about our marriage. Many small, good things.

But when it comes to getting close, to getting intimate...there is nothing. Even her kisses are just a peck. Now, my top needs are SF, affection and admiration. They are not being met. My love bank is draining VERY fast. And I was at my wits end yesterday, trying to hold on and be understanding, when my wife called me at work.

You see, I am just now getting our financial situation back on track. By my new software's calculations, within two months, we will be completely in the black, if we go with my plan. My wife's first paycheck is coming this Friday. Things are looking good there. But my wife has been sabotaging my efforts. I have asked her to work with me on the bills and the plan, and she never has time. She has spent thousands of dollars on mostly herself, as well as the kids, over the last 4 months…all money that could have put us in the black. I have asked her to help me reset our accounts now that she is home, so we both have access. But she has yet to get around to it.

And then yesterday happened. I got paid last Friday, and deposited a check in her account. Plus I handed her cash. Well she goes to Target yesterday and tries to use her debit card…and it wont work. She finds out that her bank is holding my check until it clears. Very embarrassing for her in that line.

Anyway, she calls me at work lambasting me for what just happened. "I cant live like this anymore." And other things were her mantra. But what happened was entirely her fault. If I had access to her account, and her to mine, the she would have used a card on my account to get the stuff at Target. But three months after asking her for the first time (and many times afterwards), she has yet to do ANYTHING! But somehow, it is this marriage's fault…our relationship…and/or me.

Well, due to no needs being met and her continued disattachment to me over the last three months, I just exploded. I wrote her a long letter, basically outlining that she has done nothing for the finances or this relationship. She countered that I should "look at your house and your kids." Of course, I asked her what keeping a good house and re-engaging our children had to do with our relationship. And that is when she lowered the boom on me again.

She said "Look, MM…the counselor we saw before I came back and I told you that I was coming back for the kids. That I am never going to be the wife I was before to you, or to anyone." The discussion went on, with basically me feeling like she came home so she could regain control of the kids. But the belies what she was telling everyone before she came home. That belies her first efforts when she came home. That belies her continuing to say that she wants to build a relationship.

Anyway, I was feeling extremely used. So, I told her if the only reason she was there was the kids, and if she couldn't be a wife and partner, with all that that entails, then I do not want this marriage of convenience.

Well, she had moved into a corner also…and so she said "fine." I told her that if that is all she wanted, then she needed to ASAP get paperwork together that was amicable to both and let's stop playing charades. She again said no problem.

Guys and gals…I am ticked off! My wife is at work right now, and me too. And when she comes home tonight, God knows what is going to happen. What is going on? Why is she pulling back now? She says we fight all of the time, but that isn't entirely true. We fight because she is now making decisions on her own (no POJA), that she does not care about meeting my needs. When I ask her to go to counseling, she still has not gone. Last week, she was scheduled to go to the doctors to arrange a first meeting with a new counselor. Then the night before, her work calls and asks her to pick up a shift...so she does. And misses out on the appointment.

She is now acting like she could care less about SF (she hasn't had any in over 5 months). She could care less whether I go or stay. She complains if I am gone with the military for the weekend and that she wants me home to build a life with. But when I am home (which is most of the time now, since I will be retiring in 4 months), she pushes me away.

There is much, much more but I hope that I have belayed the basics here to help you get the idea. I don't know whether she is just lying about the kids thing and that she really wants this but is too scared to move to the next level. Or if she really means it and she is that evil and conniving to come back into a marriage and set things up only so she can get her kids back.

So, let me have it. I have no idea what to do. I know sitting quiet and just meeting her needs is not yielding any results so far. And it is building great resentment in me. And if she has "used" me to get to those kids, I have no idea what I am going to do because I dropped all my "ammo" against her by letting her come home. And understand, if that is true…my wife let me and the kids believe that they were getting their family back…knowing all she wanted was the kids…and this would end…and they would have to go thru hell again.

I did not handle myself real well last night. I LBed pretty well. I said some things I wish I hadn't of. And I should never of asked her for a divorce like I did. My God does not allow me to divorce now. I had my shot, and forgave her. Now I am truly trapped.

Either she is just lost in recovery (which a competent counselor…I even told her I would pay for Steve Harley…would help her work through if she would only commit to that), or I have been played by a master…a very evil person that I no longer know.

So, what do you think? I am supposedly in recovery. The OM is gone. I do not know what tools I have now that will help with this or change this situation. I just know that I cannot live like this, especially after her remarks last night.

In His arms.

MM,

I don't really know what to say or offer. However, I do think her keeping the accounts separate is a big red flag and has been. We discussed that she might do this so that she wouldn't lose the kids.

I think she needs counseling and I don't mean MC. I think she needs to address HER issues before you have a chance for your marriage. Yes, you are short on ammo, but that was the risk you took when you accepted her back, and there is really no need to worry about that. It was a risk you WANTED to take and I think you should have taken.

Something else is bothering her though. I have a hard time believing that the woman that wanted to come back before was a complete fraud. Something else is bothering her and it would help you a lot to figure out what it is.

As usual, if you don't want a divorce don't file for one, but you may find your self needing to if she won't get help for her anger or whatever is bothering her.

You do have one thing on your side that you didn't have before you started all of this, your children. They have come to know you well, they have seen you try and make the marriage work, and I think they will miss you alot if you were to leave. Your W's view of nirvana would be shattered if you do leave and that is one thing on your side that wasn't there before. Her kids won't be happy if Dad leaves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for tonight, I would suggest talking with her. Simply ask her what is bothering her? why she has refused to comingle the accounts? What you could do to make her feel better? If she answers fine, if not leave her alone. That would be my best guess.

MM, this is tough stuff and requires the efforts of a "steely eyed" Mortar man to get through it. Do your best, that is all you can do.

God Bless,

JL

I hope this may help my friend.

It sounds to me like your wife is in one of two spots. The first - still withdrawing from her affair and slowly recovering. OR maybe she's just concerned about her needs and as she said is only home for the kids or until you become the badguy and initiate leaving or she finds a better deal/new OM. I hope it's just the first.

Your post says she's trying, doing most everything except the physical stuff. Give it some more time if you can. If she was gone tommorow you wouldn't be getting the physical stuff right away anyway.

As for your needs I understand completely. My WW left and confessed almost 5 months ago and though her affair is also over (2 months) hasn't looked at fixing our problems. I'm trying to do the same balancing act as you. Do I sit tight or start dating. I wish there was a simple solution.

Did your wife have to live on her own after the affair was over or did she return right after it ended? By alone I meen in the real world with rent, car payments, bills etc?

If the bills are in your name then don't give your wife all the money - start getting yourself in the black and build yourself a small nest egg in a shoe box if needed that way at least if she does leave your not behind the eight ball.

Good Luck and remember I don't sit in your chair.

MM,

As you have clearly seen, recovery is not a word...it's a plan and a process. Without the actions...it is really nothing more. What turned the corner in my recovery was NOT the endless no LBs and meeting needs and receiving nothing. What changed my recovery and made it viable was negotiation. I learned how to REALLY use the POJA. Something that SH told me that stuck....was that when you have a partner who doesn't fulfill their end of the bargain....then you negotiate so that they do their end FIRST.

I wasted an awful lot of time negotiating with my giver and giving into things I was not enthusiastic about. Why? I was afraid....afraid of losing him. When I stopped being afraid and said....nope....I'm not happy with that arrangement....I started respecting myself. But the surprising thing, is that he started respecting me too.

Playing the divorce card was a mistake if you don't really want a divorce. So start doing damage control. Start asking questions....questions like "Are you happy with our marriage?" "What would you like to see happen" "How do you think we can reach that goal?" Everytime you blow up about a subject, you destroy the trust and safety you build for negotiation. So backtrack and let your wife know that. Recovery needs the implementation of the Four rules of time, care, protection and honesty. Without that....you have nothing anyway.

If SF is the dealbreaker....then so be it. Give her that information so she can make an informed choice. Tell her what is acceptable to you in the beginning of rebuilding intimacy in that area.

editted for spelling! yikes

I'll write more later....but I have to run.

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

MM:

Yes, as JL says, something is bothering her... it's that simple.

Probably like my W, she's having a very hard time being intimate with you because of the mindset she had 2 put herself in during the A. My W called our M "legalized prosti2tion", and I couldn't figure out for the life of me how she got 2 that point. But then it hit me (and I told her this), that all during her A, I knew there was something wrong with our M, but didn't know what. I felt that, so long as our SF was good (great, ac2ally), then things would be okay, that we could work the other stuff out. I think even the Harleys talk about this in SAA. Well, things were not okay and my W felt more and more like a "prosti2te".

Now that the A is "over", and they haven't seen each other in over almost 2 years, we've still had problems crop up with this. The solution? Well, I'm not positive I've got our problem solved, but the path 2 the solution for me was 2 back off on the SF. It is a very high-priority EN for me, but it's not worth risking making her feel like a prosti2te, because she believed (maybe still does) that whenever we have problems, and I pressure her for SF, then *I* go away feeling like everything's alright and she feels more miserable than before.

At first, it was very difficult 2 quash my desire for SF. After a couple of months, though, it got 2 where I didn't want it any more than she did. THEN, I found she would initiate more often than I did, and THEN she felt more at ease about it. Not all at once, and still not completely "there", but much better than before.

Don't forget that your W is a human being 2. Her A was very much about meeting the OM's need for SF, and she's probably going through thoughts of how you're "just like him" in many ways. I know that hurts 2 be compared 2 the scumbag side of an OM, it did me. But it's important 2 hang back and give your W the time she believes she needs. If you do, it might not be so long as you (or she) are perhaps imagining it might be. "Remember, what you resist persists."

As for the financial stuff, well, I think anybody who's gone through the trauma of an A (either a WS or a BS) will try 2 subconsciously cover up their pain by doing stuff like buying things. I know I did... ...I've got a nice milling machine I bought last fall that I haven't so much as flipped the power switch on! Among other things. Sure, it would be no fun if you wind up in debt in the process of getting your keels even, but compared 2 losing your M? Not that I'm suggesting you ignore it, mind you.

I have been having more difficulty with some of the concepts on here. Particularly the confusion between being a doormat on the one extreme and being a hard nose, insisting that your ENs be "met, or else." But then, I don't believe it's HER responsibility 2 make you love her and it's not yours 2 make her love you. It's your responsibility 2 be loving 2 those around you. When you are, without any expectations of anything in return, it will be reciprocated.

-2long

MM

If you had to venture a guess about your W's current emotional climate ....

Which of these 2 emotional forces would you guess is a stronger force within your W since she returned:

**a sense of entitlement

~vs~

**a sense of shame or guilt.... ?

I have a guess ... but I'd rather hear what you have to say.

Pep

MM,

Also don't underestimate the simple need to blow off steam factor. You two are embarking on a tough job, and it does had pressure to the relationship. That is where "radical honest" and the POJA really come in. It keeps things from getting to the volcanic state.

Someone mentioned not playing the divorce card. I would like to suggest that you NEVER threaten anything. If you decide something needs to be done, then do it, but don't threaten especially when you are going to have to back off of that threat.

I liked 2L's thoughts on the matter as well as Pepper's question to you. So go slow, talk, if things heat up walk away, but do not argue.

Your W doesn't have the feelings she wants to like a child she is doing the CYA trick of saying it "will never happen". Thus taking the pressure off of her. She doesn't handle pressure well, her leaving you when you went to Bosnia suggest that as well. She could not handle the pressure of raising the children, and being alone.

If that assessment is correct you need to find ways around the defenses she erects to try and avoid pressure. Ah! details and tactics, you just THINK you are retiring from the military in 4 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Hi MM,

I think you have recieved some sound advice.

She also might be scared. Even though you took her back, she might be scared that you will change your mind. Decide you don't love her, after everything she has done. She might even be afraid that someday you might throw it back in her face. I'm just guessing here. Some of this may take time for her to overcome.

MM, I don't know how much reading you do out here, have you read some of the stuff posted by WS, especially female WS? I don't know if male WS have the same fears, worrys as female WSs. Maybe reading some of them might help you understand your W more.

You know, I would start with an "I'm sorry. Things could have been handled differently"

Finances, even though she is reluctant, maybe she is afraid of losing control over the situation. How much input did she have in this finance plan? Make a date with her to go over finances, tell her you value her input, that you want to know how she wants to see the money managed. Tell her how you feel about joint income. Do you feel it should be combined? Do you feel that each of you should contribute a specific dollar amount? Percentage amount? What is her opinion about this? If you disagree on different areas, each of you can present your reasoning and come up with a compromise that you both can be happy with.

SF - For me, it is rated somewhere in the top 5, but when it is expected, it drops down to the bottom 20. When it is expected I feel cheap, unrespected, almost like it is a chore. Now, when it is not expected, well, then I get a little more interested. How do you know, honestly, my suggestion goes along the lines of let her initiate. Keep with the cuddling and stuff, and build that R. She needs to feel safe and protected. When she initiates, great, go with the flow. When she backs off, back off. Eventually, she will feel safe enough where your advances don't feel like pressure.

Sure, when she first moved in, everything was great, sort of like the honeymoon phase.

MM,

My WH returned home after 6 wks. of Plan B full of great plans, promises and goals. But almost from the moment he arrived back, I saw his resolve start to disintegrate. In our weekly EN reviews, he continually came up short in meeting my ENs. I wasn't doing all that great, either, mind you, but I took it less to heart and less as a "failure" point than did he. He didn't seem willing or able to do the work on our relationship.

What happened? He surprised me by moving out again one day while I was at work. His note said he was unable to make me happy, that he was upset and depressed and felt he had moved back too soon.

When I posted here, I got really good feedback from Cerri, Star*fish and others. I had pushed too hard for my H to "work" on the M. I had too many relationship talks. I overdid the MB talk. And most importantly, I forgot all about the withdrawal and its effects. I have been told that the withdrawal phase can last as long as a year. During that time, unfortunately, we BS should not expect our WS to be doing a real great job in meeting our ENs. We should be Plan A'ing them, and while they should hold up their end and make attempts at meeting our ENs, we need to be ready to lower our expectations.

I am back in Plan B because when my H left he went back to the OW. Next time, if we have the chance, I will be a little wiser.

I guess the bottom line is that, as difficult as it is for us to accept, given what we have been living through as BS, we have to continue to be the ones who forgive and understand while these wretched souls attempt to heal. During that time we have to try to avoid LB (yikes, what a tough assignment!), and instead come on this forum and SCREAM!

Good luck to you, MM!

I was reading some of your posts earlier in the day, so its appropo that I see this!

The whole Withdrawal -> Conflict -> Intimacy thing isn't new to you, but it's obvious you're in a state of Conflict.

On the bright side: a) It's not withdrawal, b) Your W has made some efforts, c) you've captured a lot of ground

On the darker side: a) It's not intimacy, b) Your W seems to have stalled a bit, c) you're still in a dangerous position

As always, good advice from everyone... Your W has rejoined the M but has not addressed some basic issues that are already a' brewin' - yes, you may need to buckle up for a bumpy ride if she's going to fight her personal growth tooth-and-nail. OTOH, a strong but loving attitude may be a good incubator for such change - you may owe it to yourself to find out what's what in that regard.

Thanks for all of the advice. I would like to quickly answer some of the posts, before my wife gets home from work.

JL:
[quoteI don't really know what to say or offer. However, I do think her keeping the accounts separate is a big red flag and has been. We discussed that she might do this so that she wouldn't lose the kids.[/quote]A HUGE red flag now with me, since she told me last night that she came home for the kids, not for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she needs counseling and I don't mean MC. I think she needs to address HER issues before you have a chance for your marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. The problem is that she is making no effort in doing so. She just keeps putting along in her career and everything being okay with the way it is. Well, it is NOT okay with me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are short on ammo, but that was the risk you took when you accepted her back, and there is really no need to worry about that. It was a risk you WANTED to take and I think you should have taken.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I know. And I knew then. But I also risked my childrens' lives and hopes and dreams. If this fails, I will always kick myself for jeopardizing their future because I gave my wife another chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something else is bothering her though. I have a hard time believing that the woman that wanted to come back before was a complete fraud. Something else is bothering her and it would help you a lot to figure out what it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. But what is it? This is the BIG question. The problem is, I have been searching for it...but get a lot of chaff instead. I know an IC would be great (especially Steve Harley) in uncovering what it is and getting her to work on herself...but I cannot get her to go!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As usual, if you don't want a divorce don't file for one, but you may find your self needing to if she won't get help for her anger or whatever is bothering her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was absolutely stupid of me to do that! I am mad at myself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I know better than that. I was sucked in again. On another post, I talked about what I learned recently in regards to Adam and Eve and Satan. Did you notice that Satan never bothers Adam in the Garden until he is married? Satan got to Adam through his wife!! And he continues to get to me through mine. I am not fighting this war against Satan very smart. I have made some very key errors. While my wife should be my partner and we work together, I also have to lead. And some of this crap that she is talking about I KNOW is coming straight from you know who. He is deceiving her, just as he did Eve. And Adam bought into it. And I am buying into it. This has to stop! I have to find a way to combat him better (of course, my prayer life should be better than it is). I have to find a way to get my wife away from his evil nuiances. Just when we take a step forward, then it seems he wispers in her ear, she falls for some crap of his (like we can never get this back, or she can never be a wife again, whatever) or even aboutthe finances...and then she is off to spread the news to me. And I blow! And Satan has won again because my wife and I are back to square one. I have to find a plan. I have an appointment with my pastor on Thursday. I will talk to him. If anyone knows of one out there, or a good book that will help lay out a plan like this (in addition to the Good Book, of course) I would appreciate it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do have one thing on your side that you didn't have before you started all of this, your children. They have come to know you well, they have seen you try and make the marriage work, and I think they will miss you alot if you were to leave. Your W's view of nirvana would be shattered if you do leave and that is one thing on your side that wasn't there before. Her kids won't be happy if Dad leaves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the biggest thing on my mind. I cannot believe if she is so interested in her kids again, that she would just come back to get them...KNOWING that unless she has come back to be a friend, a partner, a wife...that this will fail. And our kids will be dragged through hell again. This is how Satan is now going to get to our children. Because of this up and down, in and out...our kids will have to guard themselves from us. They will have to learn to not trust us. This is why the Bible says that divorce and stuff like this go down 4 generations. This is why I still fight for my marriage. Satan cannot win! Or many generations of Mortarmen and women are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for tonight, I would suggest talking with her. Simply ask her what is bothering her? why she has refused to comingle the accounts? What you could do to make her feel better? If she answers fine, if not leave her alone. That would be my best guess.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I doubt she will want to hear it. I said some pretty aweful things last night..and some things that would make her believe that I havent changed. I didnt mean them, or at least the way they came out. But the damage is done. I will say I am sorry. But she will just recoil from that. And not trust that. So asking any questions tonight or anytime soon will not bear any fruit. I will just get more crap that is not really what the real problem is.

GG007:
You bring up some good points. I believe it is one of the two also. The problem is...which one is it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did your wife have to live on her own after the affair was over or did she return right after it ended? By alone I meen in the real world with rent, car payments, bills etc?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She lived on her own for 9 months, although still seeing the OM. She lived off of what our house settled for, plus what she was making as a nurse extern. She was getting by, although barely. Now that she has come home, of course, there seems to be plenty of money for her to spend. And once her paychecks start coming in, there will be well over 6 figures coming into the house. How in the hell then do we have money problems? I never had a late bill or anything shut off while she was gone. I have tried to engage her. But she isnt interested.

Star*Fish:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then you negotiate so that they do their end FIRST. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely brilliant! I love the idea and will implement it immediately. This is a partnership. I love my wife. But it is time that she live up to her end of the bargain. We both know I am willing and I do constantly. But she repeatedly doesnt on her end. So now is the time for her to go first until she can be trusted. So, I love your suggestion.

2Long:
As usual, you bring things to the point. I think you are right in her confusion. And I know this will take time. But my Taker is starting to rear his ugly head because my Giver is giving like crazy...with NOTHING in return for the last 5 months.

Pepper:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you had to venture a guess about your W's current emotional climate ....

Which of these 2 emotional forces would you guess is a stronger force within your W since she returned:

**a sense of entitlement</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Pepper...do tell me what you think. She is definitely feeling entitled. There is no remorse or guilt for what she has done, or is doing. Not one "I am sorry."

JL again:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If that assessment is correct you need to find ways around the defenses she erects to try and avoid pressure. Ah! details and tactics, you just THINK you are retiring from the military in 4 months. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to find my way around her defenses. I really am. I have spent 5 months doing it. And just when I start up a trail, and we are doing better...I find out it is a false trail. See above about my view on Satan influencing us.

Sue;
I agree with everything you said here. I think all of that are factors. I am trying my very best to by kind and to help her through all of this. I am trying not to be revengeful or to make her pay. I am trying my very best to understand where she is at so I can empathise with her. And we can move forward as slow or as fast as she needs. But, again...my Taker is screaming because everyday, she pulls further back. I have gone a long time without SF. But that was without my wife under my nose, so to speak. Testosterone can be an ugly thing! My wife is gorgeous. When I am around her, I ahev feelings of wanting to be with her. Especially after we have had a great time together, or have been close for awhile. Now, I know this would tame down some if we were "doing it" regularly. But all it is doing right now is frustrating me. And causing me to LB. You know, a lot of women would LOVE for their husbands to adore them and look at them sexually once in awhile. My wife cringes sometimes with disgust. I have never had that happen in my life, even with her before the A. So I dont knwo what to do with this. She might see me as some male pig who just wants to get la**, but that isnt true. If that were true, I would have pursued that while she was out shacking up. It is alot more that, and deep down, I think she knows it. It is just this...how do I overcome chemistry and my love for her in order not to pursue her physically or affectionately? How do I do that? I am trying to build a loving relationship again between us, not pull back. I am afraid if I pull back, then the affair will seep back into my thinking again...and then I will not want to be with her. As is always...fear is the basis of all of this! On both sides I believe!

ISGirl:
I am sorry for your turn of events. This is what I am trying not to happen. Because I know that I will not pursue her a second time. I will pray for you and your husband, as I know the second time around has to be heart breaking. But I have vowed to myself and for my kids...that is she goes again...she is gone forever!

J.R.:
Yes, I have been reading up today about the three states of marriage. I just know that it is me that is headed for withdrawal because I am running out of energy and love to stay in conflict.

Everyone:
I am trying to figure this out. She isnt involved with the finances because she has chosen not to because she is tired, busy, whatever. All excuses.

She isnt invlved in SF because she all of a sudden, after being with me several times in April, started pulling back, for no apparent reason (there was no relationship talk at the time...I wasnt LBing). But her pullback did scare me...thus the LBs began. That is why she says we fight all the time, and if she had known we were going to fight all of the time, she wouldnt have come home. Well, she has taken no ownership of her part in that. The idea of protecting me is absolutely foreign to her. Meeting my ENs? Hah! Honesty? Who knows? I have no idea whaty she is upto really. Policy of Joint Agreement? All she tells me is what she is going to do (she is going to join the military, go back to school and get her bachelors and her masters...she just keeps running off and making plans).

So, everyone said that two things had to happen for us to recover. The OM had to be gone, and I guess he is. But who knows. Maybe she has a new OM, or is thinking about one (although she said last week when she started her new job that she felt funny not having her wedding ring on there...she hasnt had it on in two years...she has said she is waiting lately for me to get it fixed...I got it out of the shop today, although I doubt she wears it after last night).

The second thing was the four rules for recovery. She does none of them for me. I try to protect her from LBs and the past. I work my [censored] off to meet all of her needs. I try to include her in all decisions, large and small (POJA). And I am totally honest of what I am doing and how I feel.

I believe my Taker does not like this lopsided relationship. And he is screaming out to take over. something has to give here. I just am not sure how to make that happen. And we cant have many more nights like last night. Who knows? Last night could have pushed her completely away.

I still want to find a plan for combating the Devil. He is running amok in my house and in my life. Everytime my wife and I try to stand up, he finds a way to get to us and we fall back down.

All of this started right when she and I were getting the most involved in the church and with serving. Now, we cant even do the simplest things He desires.

In His arms.

MM,

I have been thinking about your situation all day. When I came back I find that some of my thoughts have been reflected by others, Sue, for one. With apologies to all, and because I don't have a lot of time, I am going to lay out what I have been thinking and you will see that I am repeating what others have said,but I don't have time to stop and give proper credit to each of the other posters, so just know that where I repeat I am aware that they said it in their posts.

I was reflecting on some of the things she has said to you over this period, and then on the amount of time she has really been back and I realized that you need to stop and think about your approach. It seems to me that you are going to have to take on the role of a good commander or coach. Mostly very positive (Failure is NOT an option), and hide your fears and anguish. I will get to this in a moment.

So let's reflect on what she has said.

1. At one time, she was deeply worried that she would come back and then you would change your mind.

2. At one time, she was very despondent that she had lost her kids, and that she was NOT a good mother.

3. At one time, she was worried that you had not really changed.

4. As I mentioned before she stated that she could not take it if you were assigned overseas again.

5. You stated the financial issues were big issues to her.

I thought of some others, but my memory is going. This is all I can recall right now from your posts over the past year.

So let's consider 1-5 items. First, they are all triggers for her. They all add stress to her life, and she apparently doesn't handle stress of this sort very well. They are points of deep insecurity for her.

Let's look at #1. Given how little time you two have been back together this one is BIG for her. You NUC'ed her when you offered the divorce, and she fired back with all she had. NEVER and I mean NEVER ever say that to her again. Just serve her the papers when you are ready, but don't ever threaten that again. You have to be the rock here.

She needs to see that no matter how badly she behaves, or fails to meet your needs that you will be there until you are NOT. I think much of her withholding is due to item #1.

#2 pretty much explains here spending on the children. She is trying to make up for what has happened, and it is normal. However, if she is blowing #5 to do this, then it is a catch 22. She is hurting herself but will blame it on you, as I think she did. The solution here is to go very very lightly on the financial. No frontal assaults here, just kind gentle POJA type of approach to alert her to the impending issue. She will take ANY show of strong concern, frustration, irritation, or any other emotions as anger and rejection of her. She is pretty touchy right now.

Ask HER to help YOU handle this. You watch the situation but actively engage her in the solution. But, do it with a smile on your face, or a tear in your eye, but be gentle on this one.

#3 is all about how you handle all of the rest of her triggers. You are going to get blamed because she has not really accepted what she did. Hence "I came back for the kids", and "I will never love you" type of defenses. Make no mistake they are her defending herself, not attacking you. It may not feel like that to you but she feels you are attacking her. Got to change that COMMAND approach to this. Be supportive, be a cheer leader, be confident.

#4 I mentioned before. It seems to me she doesn't have the ability to handle pressure, especially right now. Hence the suggestions the ladies made about SF. She feels she is being forced when in fact you are simply BEGGING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> for it. She cannot tell the difference right now. She is still fog bound a bit, and definitely not ready to accept what she has done to the marriage or you. Hold her alot, touch her alot, look her in the eyes a WHOLE lot, and compliment here every chance you get.

I think I have mentioned all I need to about #5.

So does this sound like you are kissing her A$$? Well, here is a tip for you, commanders and coaches do this ALOT. They use a lot of ATTA BOYS' to get the troops or the players to make sacrifices they will find painful if not downright deadly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

When you are the leader, you are the #1 cheerleader, you get all of the blame, and when you win you get the spoils. But, MM it is lonely at the top, very lonely. You are feeling this, but what you need to realize is you are training your XO, to join you at the top, once she learns her job. She doesn't know it well enough to join you.

Now you know why you didn't want 4 stars. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So MM, I think you need to realize that you have a training and leading problem on your hands, and I think this is going to be at least a year training assignment. Your job is to keep the troops moving toward the goal, learning, and starting to be able to assume the responsibility of command.

You got a ways to go my man, so step to it. Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Mortarman,

Thanks for your kind thoughts and prayers. Mine are with you as well. I know it must be hard to think of facing a second time in Plan B, but you love this woman, as I love my man (the man he used to be and is capable of being once again). Regardless of what you promised yourself in the past, as we all know only too well here . . . we never know how we will deal with something until we are faced with it. Think back. Did you ever believe you would stay with your W if she cheated on you with an OM? Did you think you would fight like h*ll for your M, or did you think you would toss her cute butt right out the door?

Never say never. And listen to those on this forum who have been thru it several times and are huge successes in recovery!

I'm not saying it is - or will be - easy. Just don't feel like you have to go with your promises you made to yourself back when. Listen to your heart. Listen closely. Remember what you told us about God not wanting you to end this marriage. Then listen again. Then, and only then...act.

Prayers and good thoughts.

ISG

Edited to add the P.S.

Sorry to ask this, but are you sure the A hasn't bloomed again? Too many similarities to my sitch. Of course every one is different. Pray that is not the case, but...

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: ISGirl ]</small>

JL, so well put.

I thought of something else. MM, you mentioned she looks at you with disgust on the SF issue. Is it disgust with you, disgust with SF or disgust with herself.

Could it be that she is disgusted with herself and finds herself unlovable at this time; and is having troubles accepting that you love her and find her so attractive. Because of this, she may be afraid to let you love her out of fear that you will change your mind and want a Divorce.

My honest opinion is that Patience is your best friend right now. And you will need lots of it.

Maybe reality is starting to set in and she is scared out of her mind.

MM,

I wanted to let you know that I'm with you. I don't have time to reply right now but I will get back to you. Stay "squared away".
NW

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: now what ]</small>

Okay Mortarman. I've been thinking about your sitch pretty much all afternoon. Some several thoughts about the things you've said 2day:

"The problem is that she is making no effort in doing so. She just keeps putting along in her career and everything being okay with the way it is. Well, it is NOT okay with me!"

Well, it NEEDs 2 be okay with you for a while, MM. My W said and did a lot of the same things. She's seen an IC very infrequently over the past year, and she hasn't read any books, other than starting Passionate Marriage (a great book, by the way). She very much would rather take it a day at a time, which drove me nuts the past year and a half - which in turn drove her nuts back and prevented us from beginning recovery. It's NOBODY'S fault! Forget that nonsense. The blame fests won't STOP until YOU stop them! I have been unable 2 get my W 2 do anything by "my rules" or any rules or methods I've learned here and elsewhere. But as soon as I stopped "requiring" her 2 do anything 2 satisfy me, our relationship started improving. In your case, your W has agreed 2 NC. Good for you. In my case, we have no such agreement, so I've been working 2 make RM a true, died-in-the-wool NOBODY, and he's darn near that, if he isn't by now. This kind of approach can work for other facets of these sitches, 2.

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you are short on ammo, but that was the risk you took when you accepted her back, and there is really no need to worry about that. It was a risk you WANTED to take and I think you should have taken.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This I know. And I knew then. But I also risked my childrens' lives and hopes and dreams. If this fails, I will always kick myself for jeopardizing their future because I gave my wife another chance."

I have a hard time believing that this is what JL meant, but I'll let him speak for himself. I think this is sad. You've worked so HARD 2 get your W home. SHE has worked so hard 2 be able 2 COME home. And now you're worried that you've jeopardized your kids fu2re for giving her the chance??? When you WOULD have been jeopardizing their fu2re was when you were seriously considering NOT giving her a chance. Be the big guy we all know you can be here, MM.

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something else is bothering her though. I have a hard time believing that the woman that wanted to come back before was a complete fraud. Something else is bothering her and it would help you a lot to figure out what it is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. But what is it? This is the BIG question. The problem is, I have been searching for it...but get a lot of chaff instead."

I think you may be searching "2 hard" if you get my meaning. I think this is normal behavior for a WS after coming home. Take off the pressure. Stop trying 2 make sense out of it, when there isn't any 2 be made. Let her figure this out for herself and then come 2 YOU with the answer. All without pressure.

"I know an IC would be great (especially Steve Harley) in uncovering what it is and getting her to work on herself...but I cannot get her to go!"

No, you can't. You never could. You never should. SHE needs 2 make the decision 2 go, if she believes she needs it, entirely on her own. No pressure.

"I was sucked in again. On another post, I talked about what I learned recently in regards to Adam and Eve and Satan. Did you notice that Satan never bothers Adam in the Garden until he is married? Satan got to Adam through his wife!! And he continues to get to me through mine. I am not fighting this war against Satan very smart. I have made some very key errors. While my wife should be my partner and we work together, I also have to lead. And some of this crap that she is talking about I KNOW is coming straight from you know who. He is deceiving her, just as he did Eve. And Adam bought into it. And I am buying into it. This has to stop! I have to find a way to combat him better (of course, my prayer life should be better than it is). I have to find a way to get my wife away from his evil nuiances. Just when we take a step forward, then it seems he wispers in her ear, she falls for some crap of his (like we can never get this back, or she can never be a wife again, whatever) or even aboutthe finances...and then she is off to spread the news to me. And I blow! And Satan has won again because my wife and I are back to square one. I have to find a plan. I have an appointment with my pastor on Thursday. I will talk to him. If anyone knows of one out there, or a good book that will help lay out a plan like this (in addition to the Good Book, of course) I would appreciate it!"

Am I the only one here that finds this account absolutely chilling??? Look, MM, I realize you're a very religious man and I'm not. I respect that. Ac2ally, I'm a very spiri2al man who was brought up in a Christian home, and I know of what you speak. But think about this. It sounds like you view your W as a vehicle for evil 2 get 2 you and destroy your efforts and your family. I think you need 2 look inward. I don't mean that YOU are evil, but think about the insidious ways that evil can get in the back door when and where you least expect it. I think it's noble 2 fight evil wherever you perceive it, but this sounded so much like he has control solely of your W, that she can't control herself, and that only you can see it all clearly.

"I cannot believe if she is so interested in her kids again, that she would just come back to get them...KNOWING that unless she has come back to be a friend, a partner, a wife...that this will fail."

Yes it will fail. Not because she isn't doing what you expect of her, but because you expect so much of her right now.

"I said some pretty aweful things last night..and some things that would make her believe that I havent changed. I didnt mean them, or at least the way they came out. But the damage is done. I will say I am sorry. But she will just recoil from that. And not trust that. So asking any questions tonight or anytime soon will not bear any fruit. I will just get more crap that is not really what the real problem is."

You know the drill, MM. Back 2 square 248, if not square one. You know what you need 2 do.

GG007:
"2Long:
As usual, you bring things to the point. I think you are right in her confusion. And I know this will take time. But my Taker is starting to rear his ugly head because my Giver is giving like crazy...with NOTHING in return for the last 5 months."

Simple question for you. Who do you want 2 be in control? Your giver or your taker? It's up 2 you.

"Oh Pepper...do tell me what you think. She is definitely feeling entitled. There is no remorse or guilt for what she has done, or is doing. Not one "I am sorry.""

I haven't really gotten one of these either. I dont' think my W is in a place, emotionally, 2 feel this yet. Yours might not be either, particularly if you're LBing again.

"Now, I know this would tame down some if we were "doing it" regularly. But all it is doing right now is frustrating me. And causing me to LB."

No,*it* isn't. YOU are. Recognize that your W may not be ready 2 be intimate with you yet. Maybe not for a while. And if you give her HER own concept of time, she'll know you respect HER first, before you want 2 jump her bones.

"You know, a lot of women would LOVE for their husbands to adore them and look at them sexually once in awhile. My wife cringes sometimes with disgust. I have never had that happen in my life, even with her before the A. So I dont knwo what to do with this. She might see me as some male pig who just wants to get la**, but that isnt true. If that were true, I would have pursued that while she was out shacking up. It is alot more that, and deep down, I think she knows it."

If she knows it, it's really deep down. This sounds very normal, MM. Give her time. If you love her, you can do that.

"It is just this...how do I overcome chemistry and my love for her in order not to pursue her physically or affectionately? How do I do that?"

You do that by being above that. You are more than just "chemistry" MM. And you do it by understanding that it means something entirely different 2 her right now than you mean. When you can realize this, it won't hurt you so much.

"I am trying to build a loving relationship again between us, not pull back. I am afraid if I pull back, then the affair will seep back into my thinking again...and then I will not want to be with her. As is always...fear is the basis of all of this! On both sides I believe!"

This is absolutely correct!

"She isnt invlved in SF because she all of a sudden, after being with me several times in April, started pulling back, for no apparent reason (there was no relationship talk at the time...I wasnt LBing). But her pullback did scare me...thus the LBs began."

Again, this is normal. The week after d-day, my W and I f***ed like bunny rabbits every day! It slacked off for a bit, then we would have "makeup SF" occasionally for several more months, until FINALLY I think I understood her problem with our SF, and I backed off. It's much more rewarding now.

"The idea of protecting me is absolutely foreign to her."

Probably will be for a while, 2.

"Meeting my ENs? Hah!"

Don't laugh like that in front of her, okay?

"Honesty? Who knows? I have no idea whaty she is upto really."

YOu sound suspicious. Do you have a reason 2 be, or are you just paranoid? This can be just as poisonous 2 your M as resentment.

"Policy of Joint Agreement? All she tells me is what she is going to do (she is going to join the military, go back to school and get her bachelors and her masters...she just keeps running off and making plans)."

I have 2 smile a bit. NOt at your expense, mind you. My W did almost the exact things for a while. Who knows, she may still go away 2 school. But harping on it won't help you be at ease about it. I think she's just trying 2 understand your limits of willingness 2 support her goals.

"So, everyone said that two things had to happen for us to recover. The OM had to be gone, and I guess he is. But who knows. Maybe she has a new OM, or is thinking about one"

This sounds like paranoia.

"(although she said last week when she started her new job that she felt funny not having her wedding ring on there...she hasnt had it on in two years...she has said she is waiting lately for me to get it fixed...I got it out of the shop today, although I doubt she wears it after last night)."

Ask her. Maybe she will. Don't just assume she won't. Don't assume anything. Always ask.

"All of this started right when she and I were getting the most involved in the church and with serving. Now, we cant even do the simplest things He desires."

I don't believe this. I believe that THIS is where your strength lies for BOTH of you.

Persevere,
-2long

MM- "Sue with hope" makes a good point.

Maybe your WW isn't settled with issues within her self.

My WW recently told me that she couldn't make me happy until she was happy. Though my WW isn't at home I think what she was saying is similar to the point SUE WITH HOPE made.

The WW Spouse must have so much internal conflict about themselve to work out before they can give anything or everything to the marriage.

All the best. And don't allow yourself to slide back into the red once your in the black again. You and your family don't need that added preasure.

I think Sue is onto something. I think what you may be seeing as "disgust" is your W reliving everything she has done. Those early SF may have made her reflect back and she is reluctant to experience that again.

Guilt perhaps? I can only imagine how difficult it must be to make love to my spouse after being unfaithful, coming back to the M, and trying to recover the relationship.

MM,

I don't have a lot of time, and haven't read all the responses on this thread, sorry.
But I just wanted to suggest a very good book, if it hasn't already been suggested.....

"Torn Asunder." by Dave Carder. In the last section, there is a 90-day "plan" for returning to Intimacy (even Harley says you need a plan for recovery!). If you haven't seen it, it's very good. DOn't know if your W is willing to work on this, but if both of you can follow it exactly, Carder pretty much "guarantees" the M will be restored at the end of the 90 days.

OK, so no one can "guarantee" that, but from what I have read of the plan it does seem to have what it takes to bring a couple closer together while recovering from infidelity (some of it is pretty explicit, and I could not continue reading, since I'm now living alone, and it went further than I wanted to let my mind go......).

If you haven't read it, you might want to pick up a copy.

We're all praying for you, guy!

God Bless,

Again, thank you for all the support and advice. As we all know here, this site and the people on it are invaluable in attacking the porblems that are facing all of us right now.

That being said, I wanted you to know that after my last post, my wife showed up from work. And I was some what shocked, and pleasantly surprised at her demeanor. First off, she came in and got something to eat, talking to me about her day and the new nurses she has met and how they were inviting her out for a drink, etc. While this was going on, I had my best face on. Maybe I shouldnt say it that way, because I was really glad to see her. Anyway, right then, the Emergency Broadcast System goes off on the TV and says we have a possible tornado in our county. So, we grab the kids and go to the basement.

While there, we are all watching TV, checking out the weather channel to see where the storm is (there is definitely a massive thunder storm outside by this point). Anywa, while we are there, and I am sort of standing by the couch she is sitting on as we discuss her day, she throws her feet up at me (basically saying she needed and foot and calf rub from the long day on her feet). So, I start doing this (I do not mind!) and while she is talkign about her day, I lean over and whisper that I am sorry for my over reaction to what she was saying and doing. She just shushed me (the kdis were around) and told me we would talk upstairs.

Well, she was exhausted,, so as soon as the show was over that we were watching, she headed upstairs to get ready for bed. Me and the kids cleaned up, I put them to bed...and then came in to check on her. She was finishing up getting ready and it was evident that she was VERY tired. Anyway,I again apologized for yesterday and said that I shouldnt have reacted that way. That I was hurt and scared. I told her that she could "name it" to allow me to make up for my screw-up. She said she would let me know on that. And then she said something that mirrors what some of you have said since my last post. She said basically that she doesnt need me wigging out everytime she goes into this. That she needs a man that can be hurt, can be in pain, but maintain emotional control (I used to have that...funny how this whole thing has made me ultra-sensitive). She said she would let it go...but that everytime that I over react like that, it diminishes me in her eyes. So, she went on to sleep. And you know where I am right now!

On to your posts...

JL: As usual my man, you have it right on the button. My wife has mentioned so many of these things lately, of her fears. It is as if she has these issues, but she cannot put one and one together to make two. And she is unwilling to be told. So she must be "guided." The plan I was asking for is all laid out there in s style that I can understand. I am a military guy. I like things simple and straightforward. What hill do you want taken. Then I will do what I have to do with my men to get there. Your illustration about the nuiances of leadership are right on track. I am going to try to take this on from now on just as you have said. As a matter of fact, I think I kinda did when my wife came home, before I read your latest post. But again, although I have been able to come up with some people on this post...I am still well behind the Master. Thanks!

ISGirl: You are right. Even behind all of this bravado, I know that I must never say never. Because believe me, I have a hard time, and so do those that know me, fully understanding how I could still be here after what she did.

2Long: First off, I did just buy both of Schnarch's books. I will get into Passionate Marriage this weekend. You were right on the button with your post. And I am taking it to heart because in the end, I know I must do this. I did want to comment on this one thing though...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I the only one here that finds this account absolutely chilling??? Look, MM, I realize you're a very religious man and I'm not. I respect that. Ac2ally, I'm a very spiri2al man who was brought up in a Christian home, and I know of what you speak. But think about this. It sounds like you view your W as a vehicle for evil 2 get 2 you and destroy your efforts and your family. I think you need 2 look inward. I don't mean that YOU are evil, but think about the insidious ways that evil can get in the back door when and where you least expect it. I think it's noble 2 fight evil wherever you perceive it, but this sounded so much like he has control solely of your W, that she can't control herself, and that only you can see it all clearly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didnt mean to make anyone misperceive what I meant here. I believe we are all capable of doing the wrong thing. Doing the wrong thing is actually following the advice, the counsel, the path laid out by Satan. We have free will. Since the beginning, we have had such. Thus, if my wife is to act upon a suggestion put to her by Satan, it is her free will to act upon it. He doesnt own her (she is saved). He cannot control her (because she is saved). But he can throw up enough smoke and mirrors that she choses to not listen to Christ, and instead due it his way.

Satan did this with Eve. Satan KNEW he couldnt get directly to Adam. Adam was in direct fellowship with God. There was a one-on-one relationship there, that Satan knew he had no chance on breaking in a frontal assault. So he came in the back door on Adam.

Since the Bible teaches that God is the head...but that the man is under God...and the man is the head of his wife...it means that the man is the spiritual leader of his household. In Adam's case, Satan knew that the only way to separate Adam from God, was to change the dynamics within his relationship to his wife. He wanted Adam to give up his leadership role to Eve. And once doing so, sin entered the Earth.

Now am I saying that my wife is possessed? No. But I am saying that as spiritual leader, God gives men tools to lead that women are not born with. And with that leadership postion comes insights from The Leader. So we can see things that many times, women do not. Adam KNEW that eating of the fruit was wrong. It says Eve had been deceived. It doesnt say Adam was deceived. Eve had no insight into the things God was saying to Adam. So, she did fall into the hands of Satan's ploy. Adam KNEW better! He wasnt deceived...he just acted like today's "enlightened" feminist wimp that our society is turning out, and let Eve lead. Even though he knew that what she was doing was wrong.

I believe the act of Adam handing off his leadership role to Eve was the worst of what happened there. He knew things were wrong, and he stood by and did not stop it. He did not protect his wife, but instead let her take on a role which she was not equipped for. Not very loving on his part.

Everyone wants to blame Eve for being deceived and then talking Aam into it. But it is Adam who is responsible...not Eve. Adam knew better.

Satan has tried every way possible to get me and my to back down from our commitment to Christ. And the closer we got to Him, the more Satan sent our way, dividing her and I. Is this my wife's fault? Yes. Partly. But who is responsible? I am.

It is like in the military. A private can screw-up and it would be his fault. But guess who they hold responsible? The commanding officer.

GG007 and ISGirl: I am trying to look at these issues and understand. It is very hard to do so, being a BS. But I am trying.

Lupolady: Funny you mention Torn Assunder, because I was going to try to read it again (I read it once before). I had forgotten about the 90 dy deal. I will look at it tomorrow and refresh my memory. It might be just what the doctor ordered. Thanks!

In His arms.