All,

Thanks for all of the replies. I have used this time over the past week to go over what you have brought up, and to look at the situation and watch my wife to see what clues I may have to what is going on.

But first, I would like to answer you individually...

JL:Thanks for the SKM chronicles. I had forgotten about them. And may be key to understanding what my wife is going through. It definitely helped get me started thinking. I am very much focused on my children, which she definitely notices. She still isnt back to her 100% former self as a Mom, and she has seen that I still pick up the slack where she has dropped.

Coffeeman:Yes, she has picked a very stressful job. See below on my update about that. And I am looking for that article to read!

J of HJK:Thanks for your post and you definitely gave me a lot to think about. What you said about SF definitely rings true. As I will update below, things have changed a little in that department as I changed how I was doing things over the past week or so. And the idea about laughing? Well, like I said...read below and see some of the changes happening. And the Satan.Adam/Eve thing?? Well, like was shared, I didnt relay that to her. She isnt ready to hear that. But it has helped ME understand that Satan has been able to get to me through my relationship with my wife. Just as with Adam. That, just like with Adam, it is MY responsibility in God's eyes, to be the spiritual leader and do what's right. I am trying to do that. So much of what has happened has now allowed me to be better focused on what I am supposed to be doing, and the right ways to lead my wife and family. I dont think I would have ever gotten this level of understanding without the he!! I have been through.

Nick:Well, I think you were hitting on something there. And in my update below, I will address some observations that go toward what might be what she is afraid of.

Melody:I hope you understand what I was trying to say on here about the Satan thing.

Now What:Thanks for the encouragement!! As you can see, we are all on a journey. Some are further down the road than others. The whole point is to help each other along. YOU HANG IN THERE! You are very close to possibly getting your wife home. Then the REALLY tough stuff starts!

Mimi:We have done therapy with Steve before, and lately she has said that she wants to again. But it looks like I will have to lead that charge. She even said back in July that she wanted to go to the MB Weekend in Orlando this September. I am trying to fix up the final financial issues she and I had before all this started. Very close now! Maybe two months away of being without any appreciable debt!! And with a wife who has now almost doubled our income as a nurse (she didnt work over our first 10 years). So, I am going to try to plug in Steve into the mix. She has recently said that we need to get back to counseling because we were doing our best back in February and March when we were going. This is somethign I am definitely working on. As my friend Just Learning states...this isnt for amateurs...it is tough stuff and this will require someone that KNOWS the way.

SwH:Your comment about my behavior being normal BS behavior is right on. We even had a lsight discussion on that last night. Some acquantances of ours are in trouble with their marriage. I just found out about it, and was relaying the info to my wife last night. She sat there and listened and saw that I was gettign angry as I related their story. She wanted to know why I was getting so upset. I mean, that werent even close friends. But are members of our former church.

I told her it was because it just triggered many things for me. I could feel how the BW was feeling right now, knowing what she was going through. I could remember both of them loking at me when I went to church, and the comments made behind my back, in the middle of the A. So, I told my wife last night, that it was just that it brought up some bad feelings. Normally, she would have accused me of being abnormal or something. That these things shouldnt bother me (I guess because they werent bothering her). But last night, she just said that she understood that these things could upset me. I went on to tell her that while they upset me, I have come a long way because all this has done is get me a little angry and told her 15 mintues from now, I'll be over it..."you will just have to allow me a little leeway as I work thru these things." She agreed. So, I think, without telling her that the things I did were normal, that she is possibly getting the idea that I might not have been so out-of-bounds.

Starfish:Time!! Definitely a problem, with our work schedules and now my wife starting school again (a one year RN to BSN program). I am trying my best to fill in every bit of time I can. Many nights, she is exhausted from work. So, I try to just give her 15 minutes of a foot massage. Or, we have now started watching three of these reality shows on TV. They are on three different nights of the week, and it seems that these programs are allowing us to bond some. Just the other night, I had to go to a meeting during one of these. Well, I got home at midnight. My wife woke up and wanted to tell me what happened. normally, to wake my wife up would be to invite a not so welcome response.

So, we have tried to find a few small thinsg we can do. And I am looking for more (see below).

john:Thanks for your posts. They definitely gave me something to think about! The part of not forgiving me for real or imagined things I have done in the past is probably the MAJOR reason we have not moved forward. And my wife has eluded to such. Problem is, how does she let go of these things? Time? I guess maybe as time goes by, she will see that it isnt that way. like last night. We were discussing finances and she was arguing that she wants to keep finances separate now. That when she went to leave, that I felt she deserved nothing (which I still believe...that if a spouse wants to leave the marriage and family, I believethey have no right to take anythign with them...just my belief). So now, she says she has to have what is hers. the problem with that is that it wont work. As has been stated many times on here and by other experts, separate accounts and finances just make it easier to separate.

And there are other things like this. I asked her last night what was still holding her back from getting closer, to getting more intimate. She said she doesnt trust me. That when all of this went down, that I tried to destroy her. Now, that isnt true. There was so much I could have done. I think what she is talkign about is that I got ALL of that intel that I did, that I got funded by a friend for my legal fight (open pocketbook...I could spend what I needed!), etc. Although I fired very few shots, I believe that the forces I marshalled together and that stood ready against her are what she is talking about. She saw me change from someone that would love and protect her, to someone that had postioned himself to be able to destroy her.

Now, that is true. I did position myself in order to do that. But, as I told her last night, she needed to understand that these things didnt happen in a vacuum. That she was having an affair, and she was leaving and trying to destroy me and this family. What was I supposed to do in that situation, just stand back and let her destroy me? When I asked her this, I think she got just a small inkling of where I have been.

So, the point is that she has a few issues with me. The ones before the A still linger, but not because I still do them. It is because, IMO, that she still has this guilt thing and still needs to justify what she has done. I have left her alone to work that out with God on that one.

But, now the biggest things she brings up is my activities during the affair. While all of us know that I was certainly justified to do these things (at least most of them), the problem still remains. She feels she cant trust me enough to let me get close to her and her to open up intimately to me. And as we all know about women, it is all about the emotional aspect.

goodguy:I have changed my route on this, kind of like you said. I went to church this past Sunday. My wife was working. But Monday, she had asked about church, and even read through some of the bulletins. So, I think if I just keep pursuing my walk with Christ, hers will pick up also as He works with her.

starfish:Oh, I know that the idea of her coming home just for the kids is crap. My question is all ofthat was why should say such a thing? Probably just to protect herself in times of difficulty that we were having a coupel of weeks ago. To keep some level of self-respect. To hold off some ofthe guilt. The sex issue is a little different than what you have portrayed it. I am pursuing sex with her. She has NO interest for the last 5 months. Mostly due to what I talked about above, with the trust thing. Yes, I do have some issues that I outlined in April concerning sex with her, and certain "acts" with her. But I am willign to TRY to work through those. And the best way to forget these triggers and to move forward is to have new, happy memories, which we are not getting. No, I need to figure out this trust thing first and what to do about it. I think the sex thing will take care of itself if we figure that out.

ALL:I am trying to work thru all ofthis, as I stated above. Last night, things seemed to thaw a lot. Over the past two weeks, I went into something that I can only call Plan A. No LBs. No demands. Just was there and let her do her thing. Supported her in everything she did. Over that time, we have started spending more recreational time together, mostly watching TV, but also things like massages (I give to her), etc. I backed off COMPLETELY from anything sexual.

Well, the last three nights, my wife has come to bed and gotten close to me again. A lot of body contact. Two nights ago, she even let me hold her for a few hours in the morning and even let me have some slight "intimate" contact while holding her. Last night, as we went to sleep, she let me hold her again as she went to sleep.

Before we went to bed, I asked her what was goign on with her in the SF area. Normally, the last few months, she would roll her eyes and tell me that she already told me how she felt about that. But last night, she seemed to be considering her answer. Then, she saw the clock and realized she had to get up in 6 hours to go to work. And thus ended the discussion because I know my wife and even in the best of times, sleep comes before ANYTHING!

So, I have seem some somewhat insignificant changes in her. She asked me two days ago to drive to Richmond with her tomorrow (about 100 miles away) to go to her new school to do some paperwork with her, and then she wanted to spend the day going to see some things, eat, etc (since I am from Virginia and she never really has been in Richmond). Her comment was "we always do better together when we are on the road, when we are out doing something." So, the comments made previously about too much relationship sitting at home are well taken.

So, a few bright spots. Actually, she seems to be trying to engage me in conversations a lot, even calling me several times at work. She wants me to sit close to her now. She is "upset" when she isnt sleeping in our bed (she has to go one weekend a month to Richmond and stay in a hotel with another student up here that rides with her). She during the night will wrap her feet around mine, or now will get close enough where she will be making contact. And the last several nights, she has allowed me to reach over and hold her, to "snuggle" up, and to even hold her intimately (I wont go any further than that...I know you can figure that out!!)

So, I think you all have been very close to the problem. And what I am doing now seems to be paying dividends. A Plan A of sorts.

I am still wondering about this trust issue. If it is time that will rid us of this, then I think it will be a long while coming because she is VERY hurt, scared and angry by the "invasion of privacy" I did during her affair. Whether she is justified to feel that way is not the problem. She feels that way nonetheless.

I believe that part needs to be worked out in counseling. So I am pushing over the next week to get set up with Steve again. And try to organize things so maybe we can fly to Orlando for the MB weekend in September (if her schedule will allow it).

So, let me know your thoughts. Thanks for being there. Sometimes, a person can be just too close to a thing to actually see it.

In His arms.

Great to hear things are a little better.

I wish I could give the poster credit for something I read on on of these threads.

"If looking back this week was better than last week and this month was better than last month than the baby steps are going in the right direction"

Sounds better than it has been. I've heard great things about the MB seminar, so if it can be managed, I would do it, otherwise, try for the next one, which might be farther away, if that is not an issue

Excellent update MM.

As far as the trust issue is concerned, lets remember that when the A was going on, a war was being waged and like the old saying goes 'war is he**'. Like war, the A brought out the darker side of human nature and it is scary to realize what that dark side is capable of doing. You did well in pointing out to her that she was the one that was ready to destroy you and the family with her A, and that you were not going to let her do this and would retaliate with deadly force in kind (legally speaking of course). But be that as it may, remember that we men are much simpler creatures when it comes to getting aroused by a woman, while a woman has to first emotionally feel safe in order for her to let her defenses down and engage in sex. By you avoiding all love busters, your W has slowly begun to open herself up to you again, so keep it up. Afterall, why do what you know doesn't work, when you now know for a fact what does work?

Hi MM:

Have you considered that maybe your wife is depressed, causing her to have low sex drive? I would think that she would have physical needs even if the emotional side is not there yet. Seems like that physical intimacy you were speaking of would have gotten things going in her body. Do you get what I'm saying without me being too explicit?

This would fit with the thought that maybe she is continuing to go through withdrawal which is like depression according to the Harleys.

Hm. You said, several times in your post, that she "let" you take certain intimate actions. Holding her, etc.

My thought is that you're still going too fast. Let HER come to YOU. When she's snuggling up against you, when she's reaching out to you? That's the real sign of success, so I'm glad to hear she's doing some of that! When SHE is initiating other things, then you'll know you're not LBing and meeting the needs that she needs you to meet! With all things having to do with SF, just keep relaxing, keep slowing things down, and keep stopping before she wants you to. Pretend you're in slow motion, swimming in molasses. In a few months, she'll be all over you. And oh, the fun you'll have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You also mentioned, in your reply, the Adam/Eve/Satan thing. I guess my sense is that your earlier words projected the evil (Satan) as being something that was in your wife. The way you expressed it this time, when you said, "...But it has helped ME understand that Satan has been able to get to me through my relationship with my wife," it made it about YOU and your relationship with Satan. Don't forget that. Judging your wife harshly and understanding your own struggle with evil are two very different things, though they're entwined closely.

Your wife has her own struggle with evil that's different than yours. You can't lead her in that struggle; it's hers. All you can do is support her, encourage her, and love her as she goes through it.

Hi MortarMan,

John wrote much about my own situation – the guy has a great memory obviously – but I can add some things. Oh, first:

“I told her that maybe if she put half the effort into her personal life that she puts into her professional life, that she might see some results.”

This is a disrespectful judgement. A Love Buster. Need to stay away from that. Each LB’er is just going to put you further away from recovery.

Boy, how to summarizes my own experiences in what you are going through, in less than 4000 pages! My wife had an affair for 2-1/2 years. We went through a period of conventional marriage counseling, deciding to divorce, then I started MB’er counseling and fought it. After about a year, she confessed to the affair, and ended it. Cold turkey – no contact. For probably 3-6 months afterwards, the withdrawal and grieving. Hearing about how she missed the OM. Trying to be there for her, meeting needs, etc. Still continuing in counseling with Jennifer, but not really any changes until probably 9-12 months after NC. At that time, she really started to open up. I think it was long-term exhibition of safety and protection, and also that it was certainly better for our daughter if we stayed together.

About that same time, I started to open up too. After years of being ignored, my Love Bank was beyond overdrawn. I couldn’t smile about things anymore. I let her know how I felt – how unhappy I was, how I wanted more than a roommate. It was funny though that, until that time, she really had difficulty meeting my needs. It was as if they were not validated until she really knew how I felt. How SF wasn’t a purely physical thing – that it was my emotional connection to her too. How I felt about Rec Companionship, and sharing those experiences and fun times with her – and how it was not the same as sports with the boys. She seemed to really connect with all of this.

So about the same time that I had (unknown to her) made arrangements to move out and begin Plan B, she came to me and said she wanted to try counseling one more time. Jennifer worked with her and wife made some amazing progress. There was a concerning period when OM got divorced, and Rule of Honesty said I needed to tell her. She thought about it for a couple of days, but then said it didn’t change anything. That I had proved to her that we should be together, and that would be the best thing for the whole family.

There is no talk of divorce anymore, or anything that might hint that we won’t be together until we die. I don’t remember who emphasized the 15 hr Rule, but that and Protection are the two paramount things. You can meet Needs like crazy, but if Protection and Time Alone are not there, it’s a non-starter.

So we are truly in recovery, but it still has ups and downs. Thankfully more ups. But when we get down, we look back and immediately recognize that we missed out on Time Alone, or didn’t meet EN’s somewhere along the way, or weren’t Open and Honest early enough about the neglect we were feeling, or made some compromise rather than negotiate. I still struggle with resentment – mostly because OM was a close personal friend who we vacationed and did activities with for years, and he is still involved in some things that I have to avoid.

Guess the short answer is to continue to give it more time. Be steady on the need-meeting, but don’t kill yourself. At some point, there is going to be a sit down review of the ENQ’s for both of you, and some commitments and negotiations to meet needs (no more one-sided.) For us, at the stage you are in, it was really hard to make Love Bank deposits, but easy to make withdrawals. And make sure you get your Time Alone in. We have a scheduled date night on Wednesday evenings – every week. Rescheduled if necessary, but always once per week. Walks together after dinner, lunches together. Time alone in the evenings after daughter is down, with most times with the TV off. And SF is very steady too.

I’ll stop because I am rambling now. I tend to read the boards very little now, and post even less. Found that was taking a lot of time that I could be spending doing family things, or time together with wife.

Hang in there. Give it some more time. Hi to John and JL.

P

All that have posted as of late...thanks. Much of what you say rings true. We are at a wall, and just cant get over it.

My wife says that she cant be the wife she was, that she cant be the mother and wife that she always wanted to be and was. That her life isruined, and thus she is just going to concentrate on career and being a mom. And we will have pretty much a marriage of convenience, although she is enjoying our "friendship."

Over the A, we were getting together almost every 4-6 weeks for SF. Now that she is home...nothing. That is since the third week she came back.

I have some ideas on why, and some of you have hit on them (keep them coming because it is this process that has led me to some conclusions). I would love to hear more and then I will let you know what I am thinking.

Also, I am going to wait on Wednesday morning because for the first time since last September, my wife and I have an appointment with Steve Harley. Me on Wed and her on Fri.

Right now, with the turmoil that is starting to brew, she would rather be divorced, abd has said as much. And she sasy so rather calmly, like she oculd care less right now which way it goes.

She still says she doesnt trust me, that we can never have the kind of intimacy and love back that we once had. She wants me to watch a movie with Meg Ryan in it (I think it is "When a Man Loves a Woman"). She says it shows the dynamics of our relationship. That they both love each other, but their personalities just dont fit (of course she forgets two important things...one, that the woman is an alcoholic...and two, we got along rather well the first 6 years of our 10 year marriage). If we didnt "fit," we would have never fit. But that just isnt the case.

Anyway, I am interested to see what Steve can do. The last time he talked to her (August 2002), she was deep in the fog. If you go back to my threads from then, you can see that he was preparing me for the long haul. Well, now the fog is mostly gone, NC with OM and she has been home for 5 months. Hopefully, some professional guidance for BOTH of us will help us move forward.

Oh one note, I did make a deal with her two days ago. That is NO RELATIONSHIP talk except in the presence of a professional. She agreed. So things have been pretty normalized the last couple of days.

In His arms.

Fog talk.

As JL would say 'I bet dollars for donuts' that if you were to tell her 'Honey, you are right, let's get a divorce' and went about your life as though she was no longer a part of it, that you would se how much she would try to get you back thru SF. I say this because I remember how in January when you were in Plan B and had that ongoing friendship with that woman friend of yours, your W knew about this friendship she was trying to get you back? So don't beleive her words that this is just a marriage of convenience for if in the unlikely event that you were to lose your moral compass and become involved in an affair of your own, you'd see how much your W would fight to get you back. Read persistant's post for he has been where you are right now.

Coffeman,

That statement had a lot more impact when coffee was $0.10 and donuts were the same. Now, it isn't such a strong bet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

MM,

My thinking is that you should NOT give up yet. I think if you recall SKM's post and you could find "persistant's" posts, which have been removed at his request, that you are sort of where they have been. Further, even 2Long's situation as a similar ring to it.

I would definitely keep being a loving H, and see where this is going. It may take awhile. I would definitely keep my attenna up and watch what she does.

The problem are two fold as I see them, and as I would respond if I were in your situation before coming here. One, you feel she is further disrespecting you with her stance on sex and fear that she will continue as she is. Two, you fear that you are being used by her. Both fears are realistic and normally would occasion ACTION, such as just leaving, or issuing ultimatum's.

However, having seen and learned what I have learned here, I think my view and the options I have suggested are probably too simplistic. The "easy" thing to do is leave. In fact, she may want this at "some" level to ease her guilt. The next most easily done thing is to blame her for it all.

But, I would guess that she may want some relationship with you, and maybe even a real marriage. So what I would suggest that you two negotiate is that you two religiously follow the 4 rules for a successful marriage, and agree to use radical honesty and the POJA. This will leave you out in the cold sexually, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , but I think that eventually your W will come around. I would not be surprised if her current sex drive is zero.

But, if you can get a promise on her part to spend 15 hours a week, and don't give me she cannot, she can. If you can get her to agree to protect you and your emotions and the other two points, I think that eventually her "anger/ covering her hiney in my opinion" will diminish and you two can become a very successful married couple.

This is going to take time and a lot from you. As I said, my response 4 1/2 years ago when I came here would be to just divorce her and move on, and that is probably what I would have recommended to anyone who asked me. I see things differently now. The short term relief of pain, may not and often is not better than short term pain and long term gain.

As usual, you have to make the call, and set your own time lines, but I would definitely negotiate the 4 rules. I think her response is based on her pain and wanting to take the easy way out. If she loved you enough to sacrifice the marriage for "YOUR HAPPINESS", then she loves you enough to make this thing work.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

Coffeeman: Oh how I wish I could take that strong a stance right now. But I believe that JL has something here, because when I have tried to take that strong stance a couple of weeks ago, my wife actually called a lawyer. So, she will pursue that if pushed. I think JL's call on this that due to her guilt, she may want the easier road, may be close to the truth. If so, then an aggressive stance right now will not help.

JL: You may have hit on a few things here, and I hope to clarify them more when I counsel with Steve Harley tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would definitely keep being a loving H, and see where this is going. It may take awhile. I would definitely keep my attenna up and watch what she does.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am doing this. Last night, I made this big dinner, so when she got home at 8pm from work, me and the kids were already eating. She LOVED the fact that there was something helthy waiting for her, and clearly appreciated it. We went on to watch TV together and I gave her a massage, which she promptly fell asleep during it. Before that, I went down to this ice cream shop down the street and got me and her something. She commented before she went to bed and again this morning on how she had a good night last night.

I can do this part of it. I know how to take care of her, where her other needs are. I know her preferences. I know the look in her eyes and what it means. I can be three steps ahead of her in all of this. The issue has been our intimacy, affection, SF. Those have been non-existent since the third week after she returned. And lately, I have gotten the "never" or "cant" stuff from her. I hope that Steve will be able to help guide her to the fact that she can have what she wanted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem are two fold as I see them, and as I would respond if I were in your situation before coming here. One, you feel she is further disrespecting you with her stance on sex and fear that she will continue as she is. Two, you fear that you are being used by her. Both fears are realistic and normally would occasion ACTION, such as just leaving, or issuing ultimatum's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How true!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, having seen and learned what I have learned here, I think my view and the options I have suggested are probably too simplistic. The "easy" thing to do is leave. In fact, she may want this at "some" level to ease her guilt. The next most easily done thing is to blame her for it all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, very true!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, I would guess that she may want some relationship with you, and maybe even a real marriage. So what I would suggest that you two negotiate is that you two religiously follow the 4 rules for a successful marriage, and agree to use radical honesty and the POJA. This will leave you out in the cold sexually, , but I think that eventually your W will come around. I would not be surprised if her current sex drive is zero.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried to negotiate these things, but to no avail. She always has some excuse why she doesnt have time, not ready, too tired, etc to sit down and work on this or plan this out. And when she does sit down, she will make the conversation digress into what I did or didnt do before, or other such nonsense. I am abiding by the 4 principles. She really is meeting none of them. So, I hope that maybe it coming from an expert like Steve, instead of me, will make her a little more motivated to do something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, if you can get a promise on her part to spend 15 hours a week, and don't give me she cannot, she can.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she can. We arent talking about can...we are talking about her will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can get her to agree to protect you and your emotions and the other two points, I think that eventually her "anger/ covering her hiney in my opinion" will diminish and you two can become a very successful married couple.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree. It is just hard to figure out a way to get the "horse" to drink the water that I have led her to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is going to take time and a lot from you. As I said, my response 4 1/2 years ago when I came here would be to just divorce her and move on, and that is probably what I would have recommended to anyone who asked me. I see things differently now. The short term relief of pain, may not and often is not better than short term pain and long term gain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All true and I am ready. Look, if no SF was happening, but she was working on us, trying to figure us out, to move forward...then no problem. But with everything stalemated in her case, it is then I am becoming resentful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As usual, you have to make the call, and set your own time lines, but I would definitely negotiate the 4 rules. I think her response is based on her pain and wanting to take the easy way out. If she loved you enough to sacrifice the marriage for "YOUR HAPPINESS", then she loves you enough to make this thing work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All true. But again, how?

In His arms.

Mortarman have you thought about giving the marriage a timetable like a year to see if it improves?

Coffeeman: Yeah, I have thought about that. And am going to approach Steve tomorrow on that very subject.

When I my wife talked to Steve last year, in the middle of the A, she received a lot of good stuff from him. Most of it was seeds that were planted that helped her see her way out of the fog.

He laso helped work on me, and get me prepared for what was coming up...and how long that it might take for her to wake up. He was right on on all accounts.

So, I am VERY interested in where Steve says my wife is right now. She and I stil continue (even last night) to make future plans. Whether it be short term stuff, or even longer term, like where we are going to live when she finishes her Bachelors Degree next spring (we want to buy a house in Richmond).

Like I said above, our friendship is still there, and I believe it gets stronger everyday. But it is hurt by the lack of intimacy, affection, SF. And as our friendship has gotten closer, these other things have actually moved further away. Which is what is perplexing me. I thought that through our friendship, the love, lust, trust would come. But it "appears" like it is the opposite.

So, I will see what Steve says tomorrow and on friday after my wife talks to him. And I will definitely approach him on how long this might take.

In His arms.

Mortarman don't forget to keep your eyes open for any suspicious signs from her. Call me paranoid but it may be possible that she may still be in contact with the OM just like Mark10/13/96 wife was with her OM.

That I am Coffeeman...that I am!

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Hi MM,

Just wanted to say, I'm still here reading. I dont' have much to offer other than virtual support

MM,

I am with SwH. I wish you well with the counseling sessions. You put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into this, hang in there.

NW

MM: If you are doing things for your wife in hope that she responds, this kind of thing can be intolerable. If you are doing what God asks a husband to do for a wife - but for Him, not for her, it is a lot easier to bear - which is not to say it is easy. In Whom do you place your hope?

Remember what God told you - work on MM, let Me worry about her.

Look, if I was in your sitch, I am not sure my marriage would survive a month. I am not sure I could do what I believe is right, and which it seems others who have been through and survived did. But I know one thing. I am not sorry for or ashamed of the way I treated my wife pre-A, except for those things I failed to do that I knew God had asked me to do.

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Hi MM:

I don't think I'm alone in wanting to hear the outcome of your counseling sessions.

I'm thinking about you. Hoping to hear from you real soon when you get chance.

Mimi,

Sorry for not getting the update from my talk with Steve on Wednesday. It has been a rather busy week with work and getting kids ready for going back to school. My wife and I have been out school shopping almost every night, and getting physicals, etc. I keep forgetting what a nightmare it is.

Anyway, my wife will be talking with Steve at 2pm EST. This will be the first talk she has had with him since last summer, on the day she moved into her apartment. So it will be interesting how it all will go.

But, to my counseling session. As all of you know, I think I pretty much have down Plan A and Plan B. But recovery is a different thing and I have floundered somewhat there.

A week ago, I came to my wife and told her that I was getting us back into counseling. She has said over the past few months that we were doing our best when we were in counseling right before she came home. Then she came home, and we stopped. So, I told her last week that there would be no more relationship talks except in the presence of a professional (thanks Just Learning!). And what a result! Over the past week, we have not argued once. Sure, we had a few things that werent all that pleasant (finances, other life stuff) but they even went pretty well considering. We have laughed all week. I find that she wants to be in my presence more and more. Two nights ago, I even noticed something very small, but very significant. You see, since she has been home, I have initiated all intimate or affectionate contact. Well, the last week, I havent done it as much (I know...a lot of you have been telling me this). Well, with me backing off...added with the fact that we have gotten along a lot better with no R talk, she has gotten comfortable. So, two nights ago, we were laying on our bed watching TV. When the show was over, I expected her to wash up and to come lay down, sort of facing away from me. You all know what I am talking about...non-verbal cues. When a person crosses their legs away from you, you know they are not receptive to what you are saying or doing...if they cross towards you, they are receptive. Stuff like that.

Anyway, she turns the TV and playfully jumps on the bed on her belly and starts looking me in the eys, engaging me in conversation. She doesnt want to get up and go wash up. She doesnt have anything more important to do. I had just layed back and expected the same. But she surprised me by engaging me. So, small incident but definitely a change.

Little things like this. I have been late twice to work this week because she keeps telling me she doesnt want me to go. Or she keeps engagin me in conversation. Or at night, when I am on the computer, she'll come down and jump in my lap.

Like I said...little things. Is there any SF going on? Well, no, not really. But I have found a change even in that over the past two days. She has started becoming flirtatious. Just little things again and since this is a family website, I wont go into details. But definitely a thaw.

So, with that update...let me tell you what Steve said...

Well, for one thing, it appears that Mr. Harley follows THIS website. It seems that he has kept track of my exploits over the last year, or at least read up on them before our session. He basically said "Welcome back" amd that he kind of knew that we would be back.

He did a lot of asking where things are now over the first half hour. He wanted more details on the ending with the OM. And on the issues we are facing, which all of you are well aware of.

Then, he got busy on me. I told him about what I did a week ago and how things have changed this past week. He told me that if I hadnt of done that already, that he was going to advise me to do so. He told me that what I needed to do was go back into a Plan A. Now, not because she is in an affair...but because the initial stages of recovery are rough. Our love banks are still in the negative. We have just gone thru a huge battle and have a lot of trust and emotional issues.

I mentioned that my wife says she cant trust me, because of the things I did while she was in the affair (like I gave them NO privacy). His quote was "forgiveness and trust come LAST!" He reminded me that I know about the love bank, know about love busters and emotional needs. I know the dynamics. He told me that we have to start there.

He told me that my number one job for the time beeing was to protect Mrs. Mortarman from myself. From love busters. And as he said..."at all costs." He said we are BOTH going to have to live by the credo for awhile..."safety first." And we made a huge step towards that last week by making that deal about no R talk except in the presence of a professional.

He went on to say that my wife most likely doesnt have faith in the process. She is wary of all of this. So, it will be Steve's job to help guide her through it. As he said "let me handle that...you just protect her from you."

Like I said, I really am not going to get into what he said about her right now because I want to wait on their counseling in a few hours and let Steve get a full assessment of what is going on.

But one thing that was interesting during our conversation, was that I had told Steve about my wife wanting me to watch "When a Man Loves a Woman." And that she thought it exaclty matched the dynamics of our relationship.

Steve says "Well, did you watch it like she asked?" I said no, that I had seen it before. He told me to watch it. We then discussed the major points of it though.

What he said was that it shows two people who really love each other but show disrespect for each other. Liek he told me, you can respect someone and still disrespect them. Or, you can not have any respect for someone, but still show them respect. But of these are problems that CAN be fixed. It is the third that is very hard to fix...where there is no respect for the other person and they show it thru disrespect.

The couple in that movie respect each other, and love each other. But all of that is being worn down through disrespectful action (love busters). I mentioned to Steve that I recently read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough" and that Dobson's major theme is that the central reason that marriages fail is the loss of respect. Steve said "That's true...but why the loss of respect? Because, they lost respect due to disrespectful actions by the other spouse." LOVE BUSTERS! It is disrespectful to have an affair. It is disrespectful not to meet your spouses most important needs. It is disrespectful to love bust them with angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, etc. The loss of respect is predicated by actions that degrade that respect.

And that is why recovery is so hard. When a guy and gal are dating and engaged, they love and RESPECT the other person. There is very little disrespect going on, and even that is wiped out due to meeting the others needs. But in recovery, we are trying to put a relationship back together where two people no longer respect each other. How do you do that?

Well, it isnt natural. We feel the other has to EARN our respect. And then we come up with all kinds of rules and boundaries in order for them to earn it. But, that is a recipe for disaster.

What Steve was pointing out, and what MB is all about, is re-establishing that respect first...then trust and forgiveness can come later. How do we do that?

By concentrating on ourselves. Not by looking at the other spouse and sayin "You need to earn my respect back...you need to meet my needs...you need to stop love busting me, etc." All things I have been doing since she came home. And her as well.

Instead, it is like they say in the recovery plan. It is about protecting our spouse from ourselves (no LBs). It is about OURSELVES meeting their needs. It is about OURSELVES being open and honest. It is about OURSELVES agreeing to not do ANYTHING without POJA. The focus is on ourselves, not on our wives (thanks John...dovetails nicely to what you said about me and God!)

I asked him why my wife would have SF with me while with the OM (especially when she is very monogamous and never has been able to date two guys at once, let alone have sex with them). But since she has come home, there has been nothing. He said it was a woman thing. That it was all about the connection. That by what he read and what I said, that the times we had SF all were times when I was the least threatening to her...times when I had moved away from her and left her to her own choices. Then she felt safe, then she could feel the connection that she has always had. When I was LBing, or pursuing, then she couldnt feel or see that connection. That made a lot of sense.

He said that since she has come home, I have focused on her, and not myself. On her meeting my needs. On her showing me respect. On her protecting me. Etc. And that has covered up our connection. And for a woman, it is all about the emotional connection ("IT" being SF).

So, I guess that is it. I mentioned to him that my wife suggested a month ago that we go to the Marriage Builders Weekend in Orlando in September. Steve thought it was a great idea, and felt we could come out of it together a lot faster than the phone counseling because we will have gone thru it together and come out with a plan. Added to that, it will be in an environment away from home, kids, and stresses. So we can focus on each other. So, I am booking the flights next week and the hotel. Steve is going to talk to her about it today before I come back to her and lock her in on it.

So, anyone going to Orlando to the conference, I may get to meet you!

So, that is all I can remember right now. If you have any questions or comments, then post away. Overall, a very good start.

Oh, one more thing. Since I got myself going back regularly to church (with the military this summer, it has been rough) and now with Steve, my wife says she has noticed a "softening" to me. That she feels that I am a lot more approachable (again John...right up your alley!).

So, I think we may have jump started the ole recovery train!

In His arms.