Very quick background. W had EA/PA (ONS) with OM on her weekly team night at bar. The ONS happened in 2/02 and the EA certainly peaked at that time. In effort to allow her to keep reputation and of course not thinking clearly myself I allowed continued contact. It has been almost 2 years and it's wearing my down. Unbeknownst to her I pulled her cell bill of the internet and see about 30 calls to OM. I have complained bitterly that she needs to stop calling him. Know she calls him and deletes it thinking the whole thing is hidden from me. The latest phone bill tells me it's getting worse and not better. I am certain that PA is long over and she thinks it's just a reasonable friendship now. But I know the withdrawal will be awful just recently reading some messages from Sincere1.

My question is do I use the phone bill that I obtained from the intenet to show her how bad the problem is? I have planned A my butt off but obviously a waste of time with continued contact.
Never been to MC though W sees IC. Would like to exchange some ideas with somebody that can best guide me. I have been searching these boards for two years trying to find the solution and occassionaly I do print things from here to show her. Some respectful advice would be appreciated.
She also continues this weekly night out with OM as part of a group. I say going for broke because I have been so patient and now I feel like I'm putting all my chips on one spin of the wheel. But I can't go on like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question is do I use the phone bill that I obtained from the intenet to show her how bad the problem is? I have planned A my butt off but obviously a waste of time with continued contact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When Plan A fails to negotiate and end to the A (she is continuing the A with the OM in the form of an EA), you need to go to Plan B and in your case, your way overdue with Plan B.

I have planned A my butt off but obviously a waste of time with continued contact.

Plan A is never a waste of time, even if the affair does not end.
Plan A is to show your spouse you can end lovebusters and you are willing to try & meet her needs (at least as much as she is willing to let you.) Either way, you look like a good guy for putting up with her, EVEN while she is having an affair. How can she (a ws) look at that as bad?

TMCM, I have always valued your input and I'm glad to lure you into this discussion. More background, M 18yrs, Kids 16,14,10. In Plan B your suggesting I move out? Write the PBL and coordinate kids visits through mutual friend or family? Very difficult decision for me and one that I don't know I'll have the guts to carry out quite frankly.

Additional info; W42 M41 OM31. As I have mentioned before this guy isn't the least interested in my wife in my opinion. His GF is 26 and very attractive. He's a single guy and a player and I've learned from this board that he is not my concern. However I have never told him what I know, again to let W keep her dignity and try to end things her way. But as you well know it won't end. So the whole thing at this point is a very hurtful illusion on her part but clearly an EA, though one-sided. I'm not saying I won't take your advice as I am dying for some help but I'm not sure I'm ready for PBL. I've read here for so long but somehow ignored the NC rule which has come back to bite me.

Chris, I don't know if I'm a good guy or a coward.
But as many of you know the first reaction to the revelation of an A is to try to show your S just how much you love them even though you can barely pick you head up off the pillow after all those sleepless nights. So when people say they would throw the whore out it's obviously coming from someone whose never been through it. What a life-altering experience. I don't want to break up my family but yes the love bank continues to dwindle under the present plan. I appreciate the telephone number and will probably call and make an appointment. Thanks.

If this has been going on for 2 years I'm not surprised your love bank has been dwindling. WS's when they are in the midst of their fantasies (after all, that's what an A is) can be very selfish.

I'm a planning kind of person, and when faced with a challenge try to formulate a plan of action.

Plan A is Great! But hard to keep up, and should be used with asking for no contact and exposing the A to the world (like the OM's GF). No contact has it's set of rules too, accountability...how can I be sure there is still no contact, which means freely giving access to email, phone bills, credit card statements, mileage counters, whatever proof they need to give you that the A is not continuing. You ask for what you want. The no contact should be sealed with a letter that you have helped write or have at least read and approved of.

If that happens...GREAT!

If that doesn't happen, or she stalls, or says she will, but you find out later she is lying, then it's time to think about Plan B. You can have a date in mind you'd need for that to happen (...can only put up with the stalling for a month? longer? shorter?) It helped me to put a time limit on myself. And it helps to ask them to leave. At first they may want to...oh boy, I'm free...but then the cold hard reality of loneliness sets in.

won, I think the affair has probably continued this long because you have helped her hide it. Plan A time has gone on way too long. A too long Plan A is just as bad as no Plan A. There has been absolutely no consequences for her. She only stands to gain a few crumbs from the OM and probably even hates herself for it.

I think you are ripe for Plan B, however, I would try something else first.

I would expose this little fantasy to the light of day. I would first show her the phone bill and ask her to institute no contact. If she won't end contact IMMEDIATELY with a no contact letter, then its time to start exposing this affair all over the place. Its also time to go speak to the OM and ask him what his intentions are for your wife. This will help the OM see who you really are and how detructive this has been to your marriage.

If setting some MUCH NEEDED and OVERDUE boundaries does not work, then you really have to consider seperation or acceptance of a spouse who believes infidelity is ok. Those are your choices as I see them.

But first off, please quit enabling this affair by helping her hide it. Had it been exposed long ago, this little fantasy probably would have long died out.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

P.S. His girlfriend also needs to be warned about what is going on.

And don't fall for the "this is just a friendship" line from your wife. Friends don't sleep with friends.

I was going to suggest MelodyLane's tactics, but am less experienced than others so I thought I'd keep quiet. I'd try that first, too.

It sure doesn't sound like you are practicing The Rule Of Time . Sure you have kids but you need to make time alone with your W to go out on dates and other recreational activities that will deposit love units in both of your love banks. Make it your purpose to excite her with planned activities that will bring the two of you closer together, and she will probably forget about bar night with the OM. If you can do this, she won't view you as another yoke in her life.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I think I can give you some real "voice of experience" advice here. I went on-line to my WW's cell phone company, saw that she had not set up a password to access her account, and set one up for myself. I am guessing you did the same. For several months I was able to see her cell statement and knew every call she made. When she told me that she was having NC wih OM I could check it out. I could tell her that I knew she was still talking to OM, but never told her how I knew. Finally, after one lie too many, I confronted her and showed her the latest cell statement. She went berserk, went to an attourney who contacted the cell phone company and they locked out all internet access to her account. My only sure source of info on whether or not she was still in contact with OM was gone. If you show her the cell statement, be prepared for it to be the last one you will ever see.

I think 23down makes an excellent point that I thought of later. If you show her the bill, you lose your source and you lose your protection. When I confronted my H, I simply said, 'I know you have been sending emails to XXXXX. I know you said XXXX.' etc etc

Thanks to all who have helped. I feel I'm at a disadvantage by only being on-line during business hours so my replies are delayed. But I certainly consider everyones advice and experience tremendously. If nothing else you have all helped me even if I can't influence W's actions.

1)Regarding revealing my source of cell phone records I well understand the danger of losing this source. Yes, I set up the password and she would go crazy if she knew this.

2)Consequences. Yes, I have enabled this for far too long. I have spoken to her again this morning and complained that she continues to fantasize about this guy. She told me "you can think what you want". But obviously it's humiliating to me. I keep telling myself "only time knows how great love is". Stupid, right.

3)Time (TMCM). I spend an inordinate amount of time with W. Between 1-2 hours every single morning for coffee and cigarettes (a habit picked up since the affair began). I have done every romantic thing I can think of. For her last birthday I bought her a bikini and surprised her with 3 nights at South Beach in a luxurious hotel
where she could where the bathing suite she said could not be worn with children at the beach.

I am an asst. soccer coach for my 10 yr olds team. The head coach is a beautiful 31 yr old who is very interested in me. With a few drinks she told me that we could have sex for 5 hours and she could walk in my home the next day and act like nothing happened. Without hesitation I responded that it would be closer to 10 minutes and I wouldn't be right for a year. I mention this because I have long ago told my wife this story and she uses this as an excuse saying I have my female friends. I assure you it's not even close to the same thing. But in good faith I quit the team as coach to show my wife I will do anything to fix it. She responded well i'm not giving up pool night. I told her you mean OM.
She just walked away.

One other thing worth mentioning, my wife did confess to the ONS but she simply can't differentiate between EA and PA. That's probably true of a lot of uniformed people. So I give that a lot of merit and want to be very careful in how I handle things.

Today we talked about how I hurt her in the early years. I must agree with that as a former compulsive gambler. We spent 9 yrs in apartment for because of my finacial mess. So to have made the 18 yr. mark we have both been lucky as have our children.

Finally, a question. W is 42 and it seems everybody that pays her a compiment about looking younger or pretty moves right to the top of the list. Her need for this is insatiable and I wonder if it's all age related and it will pass or is it low self esteem. Sorry to go in so many directions at once.

Interesting about the age thing. Made me think...
She has probably generally liked the way she looked and her self-esteem has been hinged on that, and the complimenets she gets (and the compliments she gives to herself in the mirror).
But as she gets older, and her looks go, her self-esteem...the one thing she admired about herself, is going down the tubes.

It's time to ask her for email accounts (we can access our work accounts at home), voice mail passwords, cell phone call list, text messages, cell phone records, etc. And time you offered her these things too. Accountability is a HUGE step toward recovery and if she's not willing to become accountable (has to cover her tracks more, make it harder to continue the A) then you can let her know that recovery has not begun yet and that you have been waiting for recovery to begin. You can let her know you can not wait forever (preparing her for Plan B). Then set a time schedule (in your own mind or out loud) that you will wait for accountability to begin...if it doesn't happen, then Plan B.

How do you do this without LBing? You seem to be doing an excellent job in Plan A. There is a way to Plan A these kinds of talks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong>

Finally, a question. W is 42 and it seems everybody that pays her a compiment about looking younger or pretty moves right to the top of the list. Her need for this is insatiable and I wonder if it's all age related and it will pass or is it low self esteem. Sorry to go in so many directions at once.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Walking,

I have suspected that her top emotional need is admiration and this pretty much confirms it. That is fairly common among older women who fall for boys. However, only she really knows for sure and it would help if you both took the EN questionaires.

Admiration is my top need and if you want to push my buttons, just tell me how great I look, etc. You should also know that we women around 40 are targets of young men from 25-30 yrs old.

For some reason they find us attractive and it can be very seductive. It turns me off completely because I can't seperate them in my mind from my son. They look like BOYS to me. I can envision changing their diapers.

However, I know several 40 yr old women who have fallen for this and are now in very dysfunctional, weird marriages with these young men. I suspect your wife is very susceptible to that kind of attention from boys.

However, it does not matter if your wife agrees that she is having an affair [for purposes of self protection]. What matters now are YOUR BOUNDARIES. You need to set them NOW. You need to take action NOW and start doing everything to end this affair. I hope you consider what many of us stated about setting boundaries and most of all, in EXPOSING the affair.

It is action time.

Admiration: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_ad.html

StillHere, how do I do it? LOVE. She wrote me a card once that said I was her first love and I'll be her last love. That was shortly after D-Day. She is my ONLY love.

Anyway, she doesn't know how to turn a computer on. I even get messages from soccer teams, school volunteer events all addressed to her that I relay. Same is true of IM she wouldn't know where to begin. I'm sure she's quite perplexed as to how I know she calls him so much. She makes the call and then deletes it. But the telephone will show last 10 calls made unless you have deleted one and then it will show only last 9 calls. That's how I know in the shorterm that she called. Then later I get to review the monthly statement.

She and I still have tremendous fun together. I know she loves me and wouldn't consider leaving even though she'll use these thinly veiled threats to get me to back off when I turn the pressure up. It's her way of telling me to let her work through this. The big thing is that since it's not a PA she doesn't understand how it could hurt me so much. I'm sure she still thinks I'm hung up on the ONS 18 months ago. She subtley ackowleges that as the biggest mistake of her life. She won't come out and tell people she had a PA but I know the guilt and shame is awesome for her and I don't want to dwell on that at all. I have completely forgiven her and understand people make mistakes.

It seems more of a struggle for independence. How she was stay at home mom and finally when she went out to work part time people noticed her. That was a few years ago and she hasn't worked for about last 5. But yes she really needs compliments and it seems they're meaningless when they come from me. Do you believe it could be MLC or is it purely EA with no end in sight?

I'll give you one more insight that is not me feeding my ego but the truth. Everyone constantly tells her what a wonderful guy I am. She here's it from her family and friends and it is a slap in the face because it's almost like saying you don't deserve him. So she is trying to distance herself from me. She recently remarked at Pool they love her for her. The Pool team is a very close group with several members being involved for about 13 years. W has been with the majority of this group for 5 years. And in that 5 years. She has been in love with one of it's members at all times. There was a previous EA that I simply didn't recognize.

Thanks

MelodyLane, appreciate the insight. I can imagine how dysfunctional those kind of marriages would be. I would love to say to my wife that this guy wouldn't come to her funeral. It's not far from the truth. That's why it's hard for me to hate the guy. I can't say this to my wife but I know she just hung on anything positive he said and then the ONS happened when I was out of town. He shouldn't have even known I was out of town so I feel she definitely initiated it. I'm not justifying it as this guy has been with 10 married woman but it's like you said - these woman are very easy prey.

Let me ask you this, if I walk up to other man and ask him how would his GF feel if she saw my wife's phone bill. He would sh*t because he thinks I have no idea what's going on. But he would then be extremely nervous and report back to my wife. How will something like that play out? Understand I am also in these people's company from time to time (the whole group).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong>

Let me ask you this, if I walk up to other man and ask him how would his GF feel if she saw my wife's phone bill. He would sh*t because he thinks I have no idea what's going on. But he would then be extremely nervous and report back to my wife. How will something like that play out? Understand I am also in these people's company from time to time (the whole group).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would ask him how his GF and friends would feel if they knew the whole truth. Tell him you realize how serious this is getting from speaking to your wife and ask him what his intentions for her are.

It is ok if he tells your W about this. She won't be happy, but I would calmly tell her that you are no longer covering up for her and will do everything to expose her affair, including telling the whole group the truth. Tell her you love her, but its time for exposure.

AND, you need to also realize that exposing it should not bother her at all since she insists there is nothing wrong. And since they are just good "friends" it should also not bother his GF to know that A} they slept together and B} they are speaking every day. If it bothers her, it is her tacit admission that she knows it is wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong>Understand I am also in these people's company from time to time (the whole group).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That will need to change, though. There should be NO CONTACT at all with the OM. That is a boundary you need to lay down here. The goal is to get her to end contact and to send a no contact letter to him. In the meantime, I certainly wouldnt associate with him.

Melody, you make some great points. If it's just a reasonable friendship we should have to hide it.
That is a great argument. I will wait (I know that sounds cowardly) until I am in the guys company again which could be as early as Friday and I will ask him how his GF would feel if she say my wifes phone bill. If nothing else it lets me stop playing the fool on some level and that is definitely progress. Even if my marriage doesn't improve I will at least improve my self esteem. I bet it will be very empowering.

It's funny, I know I could end this whole thing with a single phone call to OM telling him I know.
Not even threating to tell his GF but just that I know. His or my W's shame would force them to seperate. The biggest concern is does W act impulsively and scream for divorce? I agree with everyone that it's time for action.