I am an xOW who has read posts by TogetherAlone in the recovery section and really like her posts. I post this to her and am really not trying to start trouble here. If you need to flame me or delete me I understand it, but I really want to read her answer.

Togetheralone –

I am asking you these question because I think it is far more important than semantics. Please remember, I am an xOW who is not in love with MM anymore. Even though he is getting a divorce, we have no plans to be together, and we haven’t had contact in over 9 months. I’ve had plenty of time to process this experience, and one day I want to get married myself, and I want to understand as much as I can about marriage and affairs from all angles. When you are an OW to a man who exerted a tremendous amount of effort to catch you and keep you, you learn about marriage from an angle you may never have expected.

I agree with Terminator that an affair takes place in the context of a marriage. You disagreed.

If an affair does not take place only in the context of a pre-existing marriage, then the affair is a relationship just like any other. Two people meet, feel a mutual attraction, get to know each other and create emotional and sexual bonds with each other just like any other relationship. It would be seen as founded on the same reasons and motivations as any other relationship is founded on.

But that’s not how affairs are treated, and in my opinion as an XOW, rightly so.

As an xOW I certainly am not allowed to say, without getting flamed off the board, that my relationship with MM had nothing to do with his marriage.. am I? Am I allowed to say that we had a selfstanding relationship? No, I am only allowed to say that I was engaged in a fantasy, that he and I only showed each other our “best virtues”, that we didn’t truly know each other, that we didn’t have real problems or intimacy, because those things can only occur in a marriage. That is to say that the marriage was real, and my relationship with him was some secondary, fantasy-based offshoot of the pre-existing reality. That is to say, the affair only existed in the context of a marriage that gave rise to it.

If the affair is not taking place in the context of a marriage, it wouldn’t be treated that way. It would be a relationship.

Furthermore, if I understand correctly, as explained here, if the WS was honest and mature enough to communicate his/her problems, desires, or needs to his/her spouse, the relationship with OP would have never arisen, because the spouse would have been able to meet those needs or satisfy those desires.

In this view, the W and OW are actually interchangeable. If needs were communicated with one, there would be no reason or desire to seek their fulfillment with another. But as I’ve read here for months, the OW is seen as a lesser being than the W, absolutely not on par with her, not interchangeable at all. The OW is, as dustkitty pointed out, the harlot, heathen, big ditch, endless hole, second-class citizen.

So again, the marriage is the primary context at all times for the affair. At no time can the affair be seen as it’s own relationship between two people independent of the marriage.

So can you explain your thoughts in relation to this? See, one day I will get married. I either believe my husband will cheat no matter how good or bad the marriage is, or I believe that if we have a fulfilling marriage, he won't feel the need to cheat. In the one case, the affair is totally independent of the marriage. In the other, it takes place in it's context.

Sungirl

I will post later; a bit tied up at present.

TA

Sungirl,

I'm not entirely clear which point you're trying to clarify, but I'll try to respond.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If an affair does not take place only in the context of a pre-existing marriage, then the affair is a relationship just like any other. Two people meet, feel a mutual attraction, get to know each other and create emotional and sexual bonds with each other just like any other relationship. It would be seen as founded on the same reasons and motivations as any other relationship is founded on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, an affair is where a promise of sexual and emotional exclusivity is breached. The promise may have been made explicitly in the context of a marriage or an engagement, implicitly in a long-term live-together arrangement, or temporarily in a dating situation. There are many posters here who are not married, but who have undoubtedly been betrayed.

Before I met my H, I had an intense eighteen-month relationship with a man who was working far from home, and whom I learned eventually was engaged. I broke off the relationship as soon as I learned the truth, but he continued to pursue me hotly even as he arranged his life with his fiancee. Although he wasn&#8217;t married, I regard him as having had an affair with me &#8211; he had made a clear promise to someone else not to do the kinds of things he did with me. So to me, an affair is a relationship where at least one partner knows that he is reneging on a commitment, and is keen for this not to be made known to the commitment partner.

If both partners know that there is a commitment in existence, then they are both tacitly consenting to defraud the commitment partner(s). They must both therefore be aware that the affair partner is capable of betraying a promise, or condoning the betrayal of a promise, and engage with each other knowing that the partner cannot be trusted. They are each party to a crime. From enquiries into my H&#8217;s affairs, I know that it is possible for both parties to suppress feelings of guilt, to submerge them with the excitement and pleasure of the affair, but I think that doing this causes a slow erosion of self-respect and self-love, and eventually leaves the suppressee hollow and self-hating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As an xOW I certainly am not allowed to say, without getting flamed off the board, that my relationship with MM had nothing to do with his marriage.. am I? Am I allowed to say that we had a selfstanding relationship? No, I am only allowed to say that I was engaged in a fantasy, that he and I only showed each other our &#8220;best virtues&#8221;, that we didn&#8217;t truly know each other, that we didn&#8217;t have real problems or intimacy, because those things can only occur in a marriage. That is to say that the marriage was real, and my relationship with him was some secondary, fantasy-based offshoot of the pre-existing reality. That is to say, the affair only existed in the context of a marriage that gave rise to it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, to get back to my pedantic description, an affair occurs in the context of the committed relationship which is being betrayed. The betrayal is built into the heart of the affair. The fact that a commitment has been made, and not held to, has to affect the way the affairees view each other. Neither can assume that they are respected by the other &#8211; in fact they can be fairly sure that there is an element of mutual contempt. Who respects someone who makes a promise and pretends to keep it, but doesn&#8217;t? Who respects someone who helps you to cheat an innocent party? There may be mutual dependency, friendship, passion, sexual chemistry, even admiration&#8230;but there cannot really be respect. Engaging with someone you don&#8217;t respect is self-degrading.

I believe that respect is the cornerstone of all healthy relationships. An affair is a colossal act of disrespect to the betrayed spouse, and damage is caused by this more than any other factor. An affair is built on lack of respect, for each other and for the betrayed husband and wife.

Each has to suspect that they are supplementary to the spouse &#8211; that they are perhaps only there to fill in the small gaps in the marriage. No matter what is SAID, how can either be sure that they are more than filler? The only way to know for sure would be to leave the spouse(s) and set up as life partners. While it&#8217;s an affair, each has to suspect duplicity on the part of the other.

Is the WH likely to bring his worst features into the affair? His unreliability, his irritability, his inability to manage money, his tendency to lie under pressure, his low performance at work, his arrogance? Well, perhaps, but why should he? Much easier to leave those in the marriage where his wife is FORCED to put up with them, and just bring his boyish charm to the affair.

There is a HUGE difference between a marriage and an affair, and it&#8217;s about vulnerability and power. When a woman commits to a man in marriage, she is making herself intensely vulnerable. A woman&#8217;s personal power over a man is at its height when she is not committed to him. While they&#8217;re dating, she is free to use all the tools and weapons of control &#8211; she can be aloof, teasing, mysterious, unavailable, withholding, giving. They can enjoy intimacy free of mundane irritations. She can walk away and find another man at any time. This is when the man is most enthralled &#8211; when it is easiest to get and hold his attention. Of course, even in a dating situation this power is unsustainable long-term. The only place it is sustainable is in an affair.

When a woman commits to a man in marriage, she is implicitly surrendering those weapons of control. She is promising not to walk away. She is giving him access to her mysterious secret places. She is offering him sexual and emotional exclusivity &#8211; so that he can be sure her children carry his genes &#8211; in return for a guarantee of his protection to raise them. She is trusting him not to endanger her and the security of their family - to stick with his commitment even when she is not able to allure and entice him. (It&#8217;s surprising difficult to be sexually magnetic when you have spent weeks being vomited on by a gastric toddler, and never get more than forty minutes&#8217; sleep at a stretch.) She is putting herself at his mercy, and they both know it.

So she is depending on him not to give into to predictable pressures, and he is gaining a huge benefit for that making that commitment. He is getting a LOT for that promise. But a promise is all it is. He is asked to make good on that promise when the wife needs something of HIM. When she is no longer able to be seductive, to give him her full attention.

When it comes to seductiveness, there is no competition between a mistress and a wife &#8211; especially a wife running a home. The mistress wins hands down. She is MILES more alluring, miles more fun to be with, miles less irritable. Even if she is married with kids herself, she does not tend to bring her husband and kids to the motel with her. The affair is a bubble for her just as much as for him. If you were a weak, immature man, desperate to be mothered and attended to &#8211; which would you choose, the quiet hotel room with a woman who has spent all day getting damp at the thought of you, or the noisy household full of Lego bricks and a wife who reeks of nappy-rash cream and wants to talk about chickenpox immunizations? Would you want to go to the theatre with an adoring woman, or go home to change diapers while your wife falls asleep in her dinner? Would you like to stroke the breast of a smiling woman, or sit a kitchen table while your tearful wife tells you that there is no money in the account to pay the electricity bill? Especially if it&#8217;s you, the man, who has spent the money on the theatre tickets.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Furthermore, if I understand correctly, as explained here, if the WS was honest and mature enough to communicate his/her problems, desires, or needs to his/her spouse, the relationship with OP would have never arisen, because the spouse would have been able to meet those needs or satisfy those desires.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I&#8217;m not sure about that, actually. In many cases, this is exactly true. But something that is not always understood is that some desires and needs CANNOT be met within the marriage. A man who has a need for dangerous, self-debasing sex, for example, will not usually have this need validated by his wife, no matter how understanding she is. A man who feels he can only cope with the stress of family life and job of he has a stress-free sexual and emotional outlet elsewhere, and feels entitled to this, will not get a receptive hearing. So, I think a corollary to this is that the WS must first examine the valididity of his / her needs. And sometimes a need is expressed in a way that cannot possibly be picked up by the spouse...leading to much misnderstanding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In this view, the W and OW are actually interchangeable. If needs were communicated with one, there would be no reason or desire to seek their fulfillment with another. But as I&#8217;ve read here for months, the OW is seen as a lesser being than the W, absolutely not on par with her, not interchangeable at all. The OW is, as dustkitty pointed out, the harlot, heathen, big ditch, endless hole, second-class citizen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course feelings run high. The wife has made herself utterly vulnerable; the OW has risked nothing. There is a colossal sense of danger &#8211; often STDs are brought into the marriage from the OP&#8217;s extra-extra-marital activities. The family is endangered &#8211; even if the marriage survives, there is always be insecurity and uncertainty as to the reliability of the WS. The pain for the betrayed spouse is INDESCRIBABLE. I have had nights when I have sat shuddering with the shock, pain and fear, where all my thoughts were about how to kill myself and end this pain without leaving a bloody mess for the kids. When all that&#8217;s stopped me is the sound of a child crying behind a bedroom door, terrified at the prospect of their world ending. To be reduced to that state is beyond words. And for what? So that a fat, silly woman with obvious personality problems could indulge herself in a romantic fantasy with my immature, selfish husband? Was their pleasure worth my pain and that of my children? Can you see why the OW may not get the warmest reception?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So can you explain your thoughts in relation to this? See, one day I will get married. I either believe my husband will cheat no matter how good or bad the marriage is, or I believe that if we have a fulfilling marriage, he won't feel the need to cheat. In the one case, the affair is totally independent of the marriage. In the other, it takes place in it's context. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Choose your husband carefully, and don&#8217;t surrender all trust. It&#8217;s a risk. You might be lucky. You might not. He might find another version of you to fill in the spaces you don&#8217;t.

Sungirl, can I suggest that you read 'Not Just Friends' by Shirley Glass? It explains the dynamics of the situation much better than I can.

TA

Sungirl,
YOu didn't ask me, but I have been reading your posts...I think a book that could really help with your questions is Shirley Glass's "Not Just Friends"

Never having been married, you really cannot conceive of all that it entails and alot of people don't even get that deep when they have been married for years. The thing I think that you are missing is that the W in a true M is working to meet H's top EN's and vice versa. With an OW in the picture, that OW only needs to meet one or two needs well. She doesn't have to deal with all the other elements that come into play. The W is meeting other needs at home. In virtually all cases, the OP is unable to meet enough needs for the WS to switch partners.

I don't know if this helps you or if you will be willing to understand. NO relationship compares to a M unless there is no other partner in the picture and you have a lifelong COMMITMENT, live together etc.

I don't mean to put you down, but I really don't think you WANT to get it. You are not "less than" any wife, just that you were not in that role and can not possibly see all the levels and nuances to it.

BTW if a M is in trouble and the H tells you it is virtually over--it ISN"T! Until they are divorced and their issues worked through, it isn't over. NOT a situation for a single person who should be looking to create a healthy and happy life for herself should enter into. Attraction, and friendship not withstanding. There is NO excuse to enter into other people's marriage.

Thanks for listening.

TogetherAlone - I read your post and need some time to digest it.

Even though I wasn't married, I was in a LT relationship with a man. We didn't just buy a house together, we were building a house together. I took myself off birth control right before he found his OW. We had been together almost 9 years, living together 7, and as far as anyone else knew, we were married. We shared all the responsibilities, bills, problems, dreams etc. except for the children, and I know that's a BIGGY, because we were too young for children.

So I know a man can find an OW before he sees his wife with kiddie vomit on her sleeve. Mine did.

We didn't marry because neither of us needed to marry at the time. Of course today I'm very glad we didn't. The marriage contract would not have kept him from his OW, who, by the way, he DID marry, and is happy with her today, for whatever that's worth.

I need to think and respond. It's not that I don't want to get it. I have experienced two distinct relationships that involved affairs, and I simply may have a different perspective from someone who has experienced the betrayal but not the affair.

Someone asked me how I could have gotten involved with a married man after having been betrayed myself. That's a complicated question. I know that many former BWs end up as OWs. I have met a few and have communicated with some online. The only thing I am willing to say on this board is that the experience has allowed me to totally forgive my X. I have no malice in my heart for him anymore. I certainly could not have said that 5 years ago.

Thank you for taking the time to talk to me. It's important to me now, as men are starting to ask me out and I don't know if I'm ready yet.

I had a 14 year non-married LT relationship, which broke up. I've been married to my husband 22 years.

Married and living together look similar to the outside world, but actually, married and non-married long term committed relationships have different truth dynamics.

These two states of relationship can be compared in some ways, but they are not equal. Not in my experience anyway.

Pep

<small>[ August 20, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep - I believe you, but my experience in life so far has been my experience. I also have MANY friends who lived together and got married. Some say it didn't change a thing, not one thing, that the marriage was for the family and friends; some said it changed everything, that as soon as they got married something undefineable changed, but it was important. I will try not to generalize and I will approach each generalization as exactly that - a generalization.

Maybe this whole conversation is simply idiotic. I can only form my opinions about relationships, commitment, infidelity, etc. through my experiences. If, as you imply, I can't REALLY understand anything about marriage until I am married, why would I even come here to ask you all anything, right?

On the other hand, I also know from experience that people who have not been OP cannot understand that aspect. I am trying to bridge a gap because I have lived both, but maybe it's best that each of us live on our own side of the waters.

I will still think about Togetheralone's post and reply if it seems worthwhile. If I don't, thanks again TogetherAlone for taking the time to answer so thoughtfully.

Hey - I'm sorry for being so defensive. It's just REALLY hard to be here. On the one hand I'm told my R with MM wasn't real, and on the other I'm told that my LT R with a man who I shared my life with also wasn't "real" - at least it wasn't " a marriage".

I am real. My life has been real. Everything about me is real, including my relationships. They may not be MARRIAGE, but like I said, how am I to approach marriage if I don't talk about it with people who are doing the hard work of rebuilding after something so devastating as an affair?

As an xOW I certainly am not allowed to say, without getting flamed off the board, that my relationship with MM had nothing to do with his marriage.. am I? Am I allowed to say that we had a selfstanding relationship?
Absolutely you are allowed to say it.

No, I am only allowed to say that I was engaged in a fantasy, that he and I only showed each other our “best virtues”, that we didn’t truly know each other, that we didn’t have real problems or intimacy, because those things can only occur in a marriage. That is to say that the marriage was real, and my relationship with him was some secondary, fantasy-based offshoot of the pre-existing reality. That is to say, the affair only existed in the context of a marriage that gave rise to it.
Everything above is true from HIS standpont as the married person. From your standpoint (as the non-married person)it was a real relationship. (unless you were simply out for the "game" of a married man, which it doesn't seem like).

However, you were a bit "deceived" in the relationship because he was not "free" to put himself completely into it. He HAD to keep some part of himself out of your realationship, because he could not deal (on some level) with what he has done (to the marriage/wife/kids/vows/etc.)

But as I’ve read here for months, the OW is seen as a lesser being than the W, absolutely not on par with her, not interchangeable at all. The OW is, as dustkitty pointed out, the harlot, heathen, big ditch, endless hole, second-class citizen.
No, they are not interchangeable at all.

But one reason for blaming the op is that the bs do not like to think they would have chosen someone who could do this to them, so it MUST be the fault of the OP. Easier to blame someone you don't know and are not married to.

In fact, it SHOULD be the ws to take most of the heat because they had the marriage/vows to keep them from having the affair. The single person made no promises or vows to anyone.
However, this is not to say it's okay for what the op does.

Sungirl

I think I see what you're getting at - essentially, can any marriage be relied on to work, and is it worth you taking the risk?

I'm not the poster child for Attracting Faithful Men - my H, as I now know, was cheating on me even before we were married, and my previous partner, as I described, made me an unwitting OW for a while.

What was the common factor here? Frankly, that I did not ask enough or the right questions, that I took too much on trust, and that I did not DEMAND truth and respect from them. I thought that my transparent honesty and openness would elicit the same response from the man. It didn't. They just thanked God for the gift, and took full advantage. I've learned.

Is it worth getting married, as opposed to living together, or having an affair? Yes, yes, yes. Marriage is a declaration of respect from the man to the woman - anything else is selling yourself cheaply. If he marries you, he's making a statement to the world, which reassures you both and pulls you together.

Does it mean he'll be faithful? Unfortunately not, as you know. But that's no reason not to take the risk. You know a lot about what is missing in a marriage, at what the MM may be looking for, and what he may fail to communicate to his wife. As someone's wife, you would be in a better position than many of us innocent BWs who took everything on trust.

People ask why you got into an EMR after being betrayed yourself; many of us amateur psychologists here would say it was about getting your own back on the OW who took your X - the subconscious is a strange thing. But the end result was that you just got hurt twice.

The fact that you didn't marry your X tells you something too. Even if it just seems a matter of practicality, there is often a reason for that failure to take the last step to commitment. Post to Twyla on Recovery - one of our sages - she never married her SO, and is now assessing why.

Sungirl, respect yourself, and DEMAND respect from any man who wants a part of you. A woman is conferring a huge gift on a man when she commits to him, and if you don't put a high value on yourself, he won't either.

And don't be too pessimistic about marriage. It's still worth going into it with hope. You have to learn to trust YOURSELF. The message of your two relationships might be that you don't feel you are entitled to a good relationship. Time to look at YOU, then, to figure out why you might allow that to happen. What is there in your background that would lead you to set low expectations (even of you consciously don't think that's the case)? This is, frankly, a question that many of us have to face - if our marriage doesn't survive, could we trust ourselves to choose any better next time?

Sungirl, you have been loved and wanted by your MM. It was not an honest love, and it was perhaps not a complete love, but it was an emotional connection he held onto. Next time, demand a love that IS honest and complete. There is not one of us who deserves less.

TA

Sun

Being married 1 year is totally different than being married 20 years! And, I am certain my parents would tell me being married 56 years is a different animal than 20 years of marriage.

I cannot tell my parents what it will feel like to be married 60 years ....

I'm not trying to invalidate your relationship experiences.

Being married is different than not being married. Being married a really long time is different still.

Does that make sense to you, or do you still feel my point is to invalidate your feelings? I am not invalidating you or your feelings, but stating my knowledge that marriage is different .... and continues to be different the longer I'm married! LOL

We have a friend, in her 60's, who is going through her 9th divorce! That's a completely different spin on things I don't even know how to begin a discussion with her!

At least with you, we share a common bond .... You and I are not serial brides looking for Mr. Right # 10!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pep

sungirl you said on your other thread

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>An OW is a woman just like you. She has the same ideas about marriage and happiness and fidelity as you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to correct you on this. I see an OW much like a thief. They are stealing the fidelity that is between a man and his wife.

You also said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So if a married man pursues her, as happened to me, the first thought is: Well, if he is pursuing me, he MUST not be happily married.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is where you are different than me. If I walk past a car and it's unlocked and there's a purse on the seat, I don't think "gee they must not want this purse so I guess I'll just take it". That's what an OP does. You DO have the option to say no. I don't care how relentlessly you are pursued, if you don't give in then there is no affair with YOU.

Don't tell me you loved him. In order to love you have to know the person and in order to know them you were willing to deceive the spouse in the marriage. So since you didn't love him before you knew him how do you justify getting involved?

Your LTR was a real relationship. It was not a marriage.

Your affair was a real relationship. It was not a marriage.

Your 1st boyfriend was a real relationship. It was not a marriage.

How is that insulting, when it is simply stating a fact?

Pep

Pep, Chris, Together.... thanks so much. There is so much to talk about and I have very little time right now. Pepperband - I'm being defensive. Really, it's me. You didn't purposefully invalidate my feelings. And I understand where I am, on MB, it's about MARRIAGE here, and I can't expect anybody posting to me to have any other perspective than that.

TogetherAlone - yes, yes, yes. I could have said exactly what you said. I thought that what I gave would be given back. My openness and honesty would be returned, because that's the way a relationship is... right? That's certainly how I felt with LT boyfriend. And even if I was not married, I understand what you are saying about how a woman makes herself vulnerable to a man when she commits to him. I'm not trying to compare anything, I'm simply saying I understand that from my own experience. I also understand the nature of vulnerablity as an xOW, but I don't think anyone here wants to hear that part. It's a totally different can of worms, but boy oh boy did I learn about vulnerability.

One of the issues I see here is that both men and women cheat. I think, as a generalization, married men and married women cheat for different reasons. That is as much a generalization as I will entertain. But it's not just the men who break their vows and get involved outside of the marriage.

The BH's here are married to women who would be characterized as the thief who stole someone else's husband... yet they strayed from their own marriage as well.

Are the WWs doubly condemned? Blamed for straying and blamed for stealing? Would anyone here tell a BH that his wife is a harlot and a whore, a woman who stole a man from another wife and thus is unworthy of her husband's love or forgiveness? I don't see anyone here telling BH's this about their wives, yet "OWs" are so easily characterized that way.

Are the Married Men who got involved with Married OWs accused of stealing a wife from another man? It seems to me they are not. They are seen as the victim of the woman's feminine wiles - as someone convinced or connived into having an affair by the evil woman.. even when the husband of that "evil woman" might be posting on this board, garnering support for forgiving his wife.

It's hard not to say that when people post how I am a thief... I mean, why me and not the married man who stole a wife, or a married wife?

TA - I have been in therapy since the start of this affair and have gotten to the deep root of why I have attracted and gotten involved with such men. Thank you for talking about that. I have focused intently on me and am finally at peace with my answers. The question is how to proceed in the future, and as you said, it starts with asking a lot of questions and being very careful about who comes into my parlour. (LOL) In the end, I attract who comes to my door - til now they have been unavailable in some way. I need to be fully responsible for that, and I take that responsibility seriously.

I wanted to talk to you about the respect issue but I don't think I will do it justice. I need to wait until tomorrow.

Thanks again. This is good for me, maybe it's good for someone else, too.

Boy are YOU incorrect ....

MY dear darling H whom I love to pieces WAS (past tense) a lying cheating scum bag who STOLE intimacy from his friend by having an A with his friend's wife. My Dear Darling H was an immature alcoholic with sloppy personal habits .... at home, and an entertaining actor/producer charmer who lavished time and $$$ when with OW. Their R was "real" in as much as they had intense feelings for one another. But, she did not have a clue what living with him would be like. He did not have a clue that he was her 9th affair!!!

But, their relationship was real .... really real .... no, really really real .... except it wasn't authentic and honest.

I don't give the OW another thought these days. She has her own problems and I certainly pray their marriage has become as fabulous as ours has, after recovery..... but I don't know. It's none of my business.

My H was a worm during his A .... and he hated himself ..... today he'd walk through fire never to be that scummy ever again.

Today he has integrity ... but he's not perfect .... who could ever tolerate a perfect man? LOL! I just love him up one side and down the other.... gotta go home and give him a little nuzzle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepperband - well it's good to see you are consistent!

I want to talk about one issue here because really, at least IMO, it&#8217;s the only truly relevant one.

TA, you spent a lot of time talking about the breach of commitment and what that means. You also talked about respect in the affair as it relates to the breach of commitment and the lies it is based on.

When xBF cheated on me and left me for OW, I thought he was a lying SOB coward, a traitor, the scum of the earth, a rotton, ignorant, cruel, sadistic person.

However, I had known him and lived with him all those years and had not seen him that way. He wasn&#8217;t a boyscout, but he was a good man and a reliable partner up until the time we decided to have a baby. He wasn&#8217;t known by his friends, family, or job as a liar and a scumbag. So, that was my pain talking.

Fast forward to xMM. He, too, was an honest man in other aspects of his life. He was an excellent businessman who was respected by his peers and clients. He loved his mother (!) and treated her with care and respect. He was also one of those fathers who actually spends time with his children &#8211; not just the five minutes before bedtime and two hours of playing on Sunday.

So the question is &#8211; were either of these men worthy of respect? Do you respect or disrespect someone only based on their ability to lie to their spouse and have an affair? I&#8217;m sure most people on this board will say YES. But for me, the answer is no. And it still is.

My xBF made a huge mistake by not telling me how he felt. He was scared and rather than rise to the occasion he stuffed his fears &#8211; apparently for a long time &#8211; until he met OW and fell in love with her. From what I know, he and his wife make honesty a priority in their relationship. His wife walked into this marriage with her eyes open and does not want to repeat the past. We are not best friends, but we are good friends. I can&#8217;t predict it, but I don&#8217;t see him cheating again. I also don&#8217;t erase the respect I felt for him anymore with that one mistake.

XMM is different. I don&#8217;t think he will ever learn how to be honest about emotional issues because he has never been honest with himself, and he is not being forced to do that now.

But my point is that I did respect him &#8211; very much. It was my respect for him that prompted the initial friendship and the feeling was mutual. While he was lying to his wife, I didn&#8217;t yet know if this was an indicator of his ENTIRE character, or if it was something he would do once, learn from, and never repeat again.

So the question of respect in the EMR is more complicated than lying to a spouse. I don&#8217;t expect anyone here to understand that except in terms of their marriage. If the discovered WS falls apart and is willing to open up emotionally and do the work to change, you realize this was one part of the whole person, not the whole person. You disrespect them for their choices in the EMR, but you don&#8217;t disrespect their life before and after.

If they string you along while they are stringing OW along, keep on lying, well, you come to different conclusions.

The issue of self-love is a big one. My self-love eroded for reasons that again, were not totally related to his lying to his wife, although that certainly affected my perception of him (I know, doesn&#8217;t that make me a HORRIBLE person and a VILLAIN here?), but were related to other dynamics in the relationship. I would say that my self-esteem eroded for many of the same reasons his wife handed him divorce papers. It&#8217;s called emotional unavailability, and some people marry emotionally unavailable men, some people have affairs with them. I&#8217;ll leave it at that.

Thanks for your replies. I think I&#8217;m ready to date. In the end, I can&#8217;t control anybody else but me. I&#8217;ve never cheated on a spouse, don&#8217;t plan to, don't plan to get involved with an MM again, and if someone is going to cheat on me, I&#8217;ll know how to survive it again.

<small>[ August 21, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

One more question for you TA-

Have you given thought to the differences in the reasons that men cheat and women cheat?

Sungirl

Just a quick comment. From what you said, it sounds as if you think that we're writing-off all WS's as utter scumbags because of what they did.

Each of us is a kaleidoscope of qualities. In some of these we are highly worthy of respect and in some we are not so great. Human beings tend to attribute consistency to others, that is, if we measure someone against a range of values - honesty at work, respect for parents, fairness of opinion, intellectual rigour, etc. - we extrapolate from that and assume that they're equally reliable in other areas. This is a reasonable way to do things, and generally we're right.

So we may commit to someone based on high regard for their excellent qualities, and take on trust that those qualities will hold good for all areas, including fidelity to us. The discovery that this is an area where their integrity is weak therefore stuns us. But it doesn't wipe put the rest of their good qualities. That's why there are so many of us here trying to recover our marriages - we DO recognise and value the good bits, and are willing to weigh that against the bad.

The problem with the infidelity thing is that it throws into doubt the BS's judgement in general. If they were wrong about this critical aspect of their WS, were they wrong about everything? All the good bits get put into a holding area while a frantic BS analyses and remeasures - there is an instant, terrified assumption that the WS is WHOLLY bad, and not until the BS has recovered confidence in his / her judgement can the WS be fairly assessed. This takes time - a lot of time - and what you are reading here is from people who are still in that limbo of indecision and self-doubt.

If the WS decides to put right that aspect of themselves where integrity has been lacking, the marriage can be retrieved as trust is re-established. If the WS refuses to do so, the BS has to make a judgement on whether they value the good bits more than than they fear the bad. It's possible to love and admire your WS, but to decided respectfully that you can't put up with this one important failing. They don't become 'all bad' - no-one is all bad or all good - but the partner to whom fidelity is important must make the call.

Neither of your X's were 'bad' - they clearly had many attractive redeeming features. This doesn't make them 'good', either. In the context of a committed relationship, they were not 'good' enough in an area that mattered to you. You can't expect perfection, but you can set standards for yourself, and make choices.

TA

Sungirl, I think that you were very hurt by your fiancee. I may be wrong, but seems as though you are still harboring resentments. Now he is married and his wife is very happy. I would not want one thing to do with them. It would be a good reason to feel sad. And you have brought that topic up a few times, so it seems as though that pain is still there for you.

We do not know what our future has in store for us. All we know is what we have right now. At least in ourselves I hope. And the decisions we make should be based on values and tempered with awareness. Respect is earned. When someone does something untoward they lose your respect. I disrespect certain activities. The kind that are hurtful, deceitful, and ultimately are self-defeating. I have seen that just about every human being is capable of doing disrespectful things.

The thing one needs to be careful of is when you lose sight of what is kosher and what is not. Because when we can decieve our own selves, you can set yourself up for much more sadness.

Marriage is a state of union. We all have been single here. So, yes we can relate to the dating status, and seeking out what looks to be promising. Some of us are very well versed in affairs. But if you have been involved in an affair and continue to defend the "love" and the "need" of having an affair, you still are not facing the adversity of your belief.

Affairs are not just like any other relationship, as you said in your first post here. A good relationship, has nothing to hide, and it is not stolen. Openness and honesty is not even thought about because it just is. An OW/OM, is just a sidekick in an affair. And unless the OW/OM wins his/her trophy, all is for not. And just one more notch on the bedpost.

You knew your affair partner well, but there was no future in it apparently. As in other relationships, sometimes the more you get to know, the more you realize you are not ready to stay with a person. Togetheralone said it well, "Element of mutual contempt"...It is due to the underlying lie.

Wayward spouses are not being honest, and if you are trying to believe you have got it with one then it is an illusion. The proof is in the pudding.

You do continue to defend your activity in making a relationship with a married man. It is only to save your ego. Look we all make and have made mistakes. We need to acknowledge that it was a wrong and there is no saving grace in trying to fulfill a need in a man who was legally bonded to another. Regardless how horrible she seemed to be. Of course the married partner is not cared for by his own spouse, especially if he is spending all his time with a single woman. The future is a dead end, unless you have had hopes of getting this guy away from his wife...It is just plain distorted and far from the beaten path.

The way we do things has a defined affect on the result end. Pepperband is strong and aware, smart and loving. It is "authentic" because she KNOWS the whole story of herself and himself.

And it seems that a lot of what you write has a tinge of revenge seeping through it. You mention how your fiancee was honest and respectful in other areas of life, and your MM was this way too. But in acuality I do not think you can know a man through and through until you have become completely devoted to him, and he to you...that includes bonding physically, emotionally and PUBLICLY. It has to do with sharing common goals, values, maturity, and Love.

Respect can be at face value-as an employer one only needs /should need to look at what his output is in the company. But in marriage, guess you want to know if he is a one woman man or field player--directly.

And as we learn here, some will encounter the affair fallibility in marriage...with grace and success in maintaining a marriage, and some will encounter divorce and freedom once again. All of the affair cases have the common bond of misery in overcoming it.

Overcoming the past and becoming aware is painful but necessary for being able to live life well, married or single.

We all need luck but mostly we need to be aware of truths, values and our love for one another.

I'm not sure why I'm doing this, but a little voice in my head keeps saying "sow a little seed and leave the watering to someone else". So for what it's worth I'll offer you a few thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So the question is &#8211; were either of these men worthy of respect? Do you respect or disrespect someone only based on their ability to lie to their spouse and have an affair? I&#8217;m sure most people on this board will say YES. But for me, the answer is no. And it still is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sungirl - NONE of is totally perfect, and very few of us is totally evil. We are all sinners and we all choose to do "wrong" and "incorrect" things from time. That does not mean that those actions are right, they are, and always will be, wrong. Most of us also have qualities that others might "admire". Depending how one looks at it, I would "admire" the steadfast commitment to his family of someone who was a murder, but I'd still want that person "out of society" because their "bad" is more prevalent and more hurtful to others than his "good" quality of looking out for only his family.

So what you seem to keep dancing around is the issue of "what standard" to use to determine how to act, who to marry, how to remain faithful, etc.

You have chosen (from your previous posting) to follow the "world's standards". I have chosen to follow God's standards. Think about this if you will. Who's standards are unchanging and not open to "modification" by changing societal "norms" of acceptable behavior or by our own emotional "feelings"?

Jesus Christ came here for all of us because we are all sinners, some great and some in "smaller" ways. He came to show us the "way". He does not beat us up or force us to do it His way. He puts the offer out there and simply says, "You who are created in my image, who knows 'right from wrong', who has the God given ability of free will to choose who you will let control your life, who has all the wonderful 'good side of emotions' as well as the potential 'dark side of emotion'....CHOOSE THIS DAY who you will serve.

Yes, yes, I know that probably sounds like "preaching" to you. But have you really considered that you don't have the answers and that your being here is just another attempt by you to find answers that "make sense to you"? So far, all that you have thought "made sense" has proven to have a dark side and has fallen far short of what your heart desires. How about becoming a "new creation", instead of trying to "patch up" the old and broken clay pot as a way to achieve your heart's desire?