Hi everybody,

It’s soon three months since I moved out and into plan B. Bottom-line: I give up.

I haven’t spoken a single time with WW and our communication was strictly limited to one-liner emails from me to organise pick-ups of our child. I hear things from common friends who confirm that she is still living in la-la-land. Sadly, I also hear things that seem to suggest that WW has made up her mind long ago and that all what happened was really part of a plan – for years. Now, I’m a very trustful and trusted individual (to the point of being sometimes slightly naïve maybe) and I refuse to believe in conspiracy theories... but it sort of makes sense. She played a faultless game, used me, played with me like a cat with a mouse, and her intention was never to try to reconcile – but simply to get the max out of the situation. Common friends confirm that she thinks that there are rules for the world, and a different set of rules for her. Well, baby, not with me.

So, I gently try to adapt to this new reality and am busy piecing back my life together again. I’m doing it on all fronts – 3 months ago, I moved to my own place, and I like it there. Two days ago, I signed contract for a new job – which is an awesome position (global ops director for a rather large financial institution) pretty much doubling my salary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . And I had 2 brief relationships with charming ladies; the second relationship is still on-going. The last point came rather as a surprise to me, but I just tried the dating game again (after having paused for 12 years!) and found that I’m rather good at it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I sort of know that internally and emotionally I’m not yet ready for a deep serious long term relationship again – but I like female company very much, and we entertain and enjoy ourselves greatly! It also puts my relationship with WW in a different perspective.

The wedding band is off. I think it’s over. I think of filing at the end of this year - can’t do right now with new job and all, there are only so many battles I can fight at any given point in time. Does our marriage still have a chance? Let me put it this way: When I moved out, the “burden of proof” has shifted to her. I did all I could during a year and a half (plan A), including taking risks, offering trust and understanding and working with a MC. It didn’t work. If she wants our marriage, then she has to convince me. Sadly, as said, all indications point towards that she wants a divorce, and is 100% sure about it.

Weekends I spend with my daughter, and we just had a great beach holiday in Spain for a week. She suffers of course, I try to give her emotional security that she knows that I’m always there for her if she needs me (like, I gave her a mobile so she can call me at anytime). But sometimes she becomes the football between WW and myself – a situation I desperately try to avoid, but sometimes it’s not avoidable. For example: Whenever Daughter is with me, WW would call her almost every hour. It’s as if she wants to be in full emotional control of daughter at all times. When we were in Spain I just switched off the phones (but let daughter call home every other day from a phone booth) as I got sick of her trying to sabotage my time with daughter. WW’s reaction came when she went herself on holiday with daughter, I didn’t know where they went, couldn’t call, and daughter didn’t call. ****ing painful and silly and gets me in great fighting mode.

I’m still bearing many emotional scars - do they ever go away? At times, particularly when I’m drunk or watch an emotional movie, the sad feelings sometimes almost overwhelm me, and I just cannot stop asking myself why? Why? Why? Also, I know that I have to close down the relationship emotionally and really move on and be emotionally ready for a new LT relationship. I’ve read on this board that this includes forgiveness. I admit – I’m not there yet. If there was a magic button, which, when pressed, would send the emotional pain I felt during the last years to my wife – I’d press it without hesitating a second. Bad thoughts, I know, I just haven’t figured out a way yet to get rid of them.

But all told, I’m in reasonably good shape, and very active re-building my life. And quite successfully so.

Regards
N

<small>[ August 22, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Way to go Nick!!!

I was waiting for your update. I know exactly how you feel. Sadly, analyzing my WW's actions I came to the same conclusion that she planned this long ago. It all came out when I finally saw a lawyer and he told me that she did everything "by the book" when the affair started. She consulted a lawyer long before "I love you but not in love" crap. Can you imagine? My god, they are sisters!!!

I also let myself see other ladies (friendship only) and it does help. I know that I can be a good friend and companion, be desired, loved. It may go against the MB principles, but it certainly eases the pain a bit.

I would like to tell you not to give up, wait, hang on, but I don't think this is right in your (and my) case. Let her go. They made up their minds and developed their plans for too long to give it up. Nothing will change them. They even took in consideration the "pain" they will go through (my WW did. She told me so.) and were ready for it.

This is so wrong, so evil... She used you, she took every advantage of you without giving anything back for so long. The only logical step is to RUN from her.

The only sad thing is our Ds. They will suffer. My D just called me yesterday and start crying on the phone. WW told her that she's moving in with OP. That's another topic however.

Gotta go.

God Bless,

BigStar

Nick, you are doing wonderful and truly are an inspiration to us BS's out there. You are coming along, and along the way, just like life in general, we all hit upon the snags which bring us to the more uncomfortable part of our lives.

As a BS, I took my wedding ring off when I too realized that it was over. But like you, I move on. I do not say it is over until I'm 100% convinced of it myself. I think it is when all of the pain is gone and you actually look forward to starting a new relationship. I cringe each and every day because my H is w/OW, living with her, sharing his life that should be shared with our two children and myself. I cry, especially at songs, weep at movies, but get stronger, when I realize that I do not do it so often anymore. God Bless that you were able to conduct even small-time relationships; I'm not even ready at the stage to contemplate anyone.

I think you are doing wonderfully, and you know what Nick....more fool your wife for giving up such a phenomenal person as yourself. Remember, and I always do this when I'm down, that out there, whether it be your wife or another woman, you will find love again and when you do, it will be 10 times better. Good Luck and I will keep you in my prayers...you are a role model for us betrayed spouses...

Kim

Nick-

Well, if this is truly the end for your M, there can be no doubt you did all you could to save it. I was amazed more than once by your patience and understanding through this whole thing so you're to be commmended for the lengths you've traveled to keep your family intact.

"I sort of know that internally and emotionally I’m not yet ready for a deep serious long term relationship again – but I like female company very much, and we entertain and enjoy ourselves greatly! It also puts my relationship with WW in a different perspective."

I'd be careful here and it sounds like you are. You'll need to process alot of emotions with the D (akin to letting a broken bone heal) before you can really thrive in a LT relationship.

"I’m still bearing many emotional scars - do they ever go away? At times, particularly when I’m drunk or watch an emotional movie, the sad feelings sometimes almost overwhelm me, and I just cannot stop asking myself why? Why? Why?"

You know, I've come to accept that those scars never do go away. But rather than regret any of it happened, you can learn from it and be open to so much more in your next relationship. I really think it's true that one's appreciation of love is much greater after having endured a A. I know what you mean about being overwhelmed too. You'll get through it though, and it will get easier with time believe me.

"I’ve read on this board that this includes forgiveness. I admit – I’m not there yet."

Being open to the idea of forgiveness is 99% of the battle, so you'll get there. We're pulling for you Nick, good luck.........

Nick,

Not to abuse you, but dating is NOT an approved activity in Plan B. It's generally thought of as "cheating". My recommendation for you is to cease and desist---if you're ready to file for divorce, then do so. If you're not, then no dating. And when you ARE finally divorced, I'd still recommend waiting for a reasonable period of time before you get 'back in the game'.

Nick

I am glad that you feel you are beginning to heal and can move on. I always admired your staying power and think that to a certain extent it was perhaps too long, but only you could make the decisions that you did when you did. It is not for us to judge.

However, I don't understand why now you will wait to start DV proceedings. Knowing how horrible that can all be, I think getting it over and done with if you are absolutely certain that there is no hope is perhaps the best option. Again, it is not for me to say, but I wonder why you have made that decision.

Will the emotional scars go away? As you know I still keep getting these shocks in my life, but I think you can come to a point as I have that I will make sure I put the mental distance in as well, and you can move forward. I forgive myself for my behaviour and my failings. We all learn and with time whilst you will never forget, it will become much more easy to live with.

It certainly helps if you have a new squeeze to take your mind off things, but go easy. Whilst I don't entirely agree with K, I know how hard it is for me, even after DV to think of anything permanent. Make sure you are truly as sorted as you can be.

Take care and thinking of you.

Lisa

P.S. What happened to the sun, typical bank holiday weather eh?

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

I don't know if I should say sorry because your moving on or good luck.

I to feel like you do. Since my WW left on dday Mid March this year and then no-contacted me almost 3 months ago she has given me no indication that we have any chance.

Her affair is ongoing. And right after DDAy I found out from OM wife that the plan was in place to leave the spouses from the first of the year.

In my case it may be a short time from Dday but during our difficult years I asked my WW to discuss our problems, go to councling and even a trial separation. Of course nothing changed except she found another man to solve her problems.

I've also started dating and I also know I'm not ready for anything serious but the companionship is nice. Since my WW doesn't seem interested in helping our marriage recover or me recovery as part of our closure then I'm left to fix myself.

The dating is part of my recovery. Helping rebuild some of my lost self esteam and fill some of my emotional needs that were not being met or even discussed by my WW before DDAy or since. Part of my baby steps to my recovery.

I think of my WW daily and wish that she would just pick up the phone and tell me the affairs over and could I give her some time. Anything possative and I would sit tight. But I'am affraid the rightings on the wall she's a WW and Walk away wife.

good luck to all of us.

People!

This dating while you're still M'd is playing with FIRE. Particularly you, goodguy. Your W's A hasn't even run its course, so you have no idea whether a fog-free W would be amenable 2 recovery or not at this point.

Don't just think of yourselves, people. Remember that there is another person involved in this (an OP). They have feelings 2. How do you suppose they will feel when they realize they're an OP? How do YOU think you'll feel when you realize, at some level, that your doing what your WS is doing?

Sorry 2 be so hard on you guys, but...
-2long

2long,

Your right, your right. I'm just feeling so isolated, alone and have little control about my future. My WW has someone, my friends have someone and I feel frozen, stuck on the sidelines waiting.

At this point there is nothing I feel I can do but wait. I'm not a person who usualy waits for something to happen.

And it was my WW who went no-contact on me 3 months ago. She shut the door.

thanks for the 2x4 I will cool it for a little while longer.

goodguy:

"I'm just feeling so isolated, alone and have little control about my future."

You'll learn, over time, that there's an important distinction between being alone and being lonely. YOU have sole control over your fu2re, always have. You just haven't realized that yet.

"My WW has someone, my friends have someone and I feel frozen, stuck on the sidelines waiting."

What is "having" someone? You don't own them, do you? A lot of people believe they do, or need 2, in order 2 be "whole". But healthy relationships start with healthy individuals. Individuals that can be alone without feeling lonely.

"At this point there is nothing I feel I can do but wait. I'm not a person who usualy waits for something to happen."

Then don't. LEARN. READ. Go 2 counseling. Post here (but be careful, we're amateurs).

Take care,
-2long

Wooaa… looks like I triggered a lively discussion here! Before I chip in my 2c worth on the topic of “dating or not whilst in plan B”, let me answer a few points specifically –

<strong>BigStar</strong> – yes, they seem to be sisters! Thanks for the heads up. BTW – can you send me an email, unfortunately lost yours.

<strong>Karena</strong> – many thanks for your warm words. As mentioned, I also react emotionally to certain triggers and still am resentful and can’t understand… but, compared to a while ago, I certainly let go quite a bit. And that helps.

<strong>Litchfield</strong> – agree that (and that’s probably true for all of us BS) a new long term relationship ain’t going to be easy. Why / How trust someone knowing that the person you trusted most in the past, shared most of your adult life with, had children with, suddenly stabs you in the back and betrays you? This is probably THE big challenge for the next long term relationship. For all of us. But knowing there’s a roadblock ahead is the first step in not hitting it.

<strong>Lisa</strong> – thanks for checking in on my thread! Why I’m not divorcing yet? Purely administrative reasons, really. I really was & am terribly busy right now. I was just on holidays, negotiated new employment contract, am busy winding down work at my old work place, and will start soon on new place. This is what I meant with that I can’t fight too many battles at any given point in time. As soon as I’m settled in the new job (probably November-ish) I’ll start proceedings. That, and I admit, a bit of laziness on my side. I’m also thinking – if she dismisses our marriage, why should I do all the running-around and the work? But I DO want to file, to clear up the material side of things and also to draw the line & move on.

<strong> On the topic of “Dating or not in Plan B” – </strong>

<strong>K</strong> – whether I’m in plan B or have already starting plan D I don’t know, and I think the difference it academic. What I know is that I’ve given up. What I know is that I’ve lost *all* hope that WW will be able to reconcile. What I also know is that I’ve been lonely for far too long, that I miss female company, the touch, the affection, the flirting, the banter and the rest of it. Against this background I don’t have a moral problem to date. In fact, it does wonders for my self-esteem and, whilst I felt close to being suicidal not that long ago, when I was at my lowest point, I feel pretty pleased with myself now and generally v. OK. I don’t want to be eaten up by self-pity and be holier than the pope – I accept that my marriage is over and done, and one has to recognise when a battle is lost. I don’t want to become a monk and forsake my earthly pleasures due to this disappointment. Damage is done, is being written off, let’s draw the lessons learnt and move on. In this sense I share the same view as you <strong> Goodguy </strong>

<strong> 2Long </strong> – you wrote “Don't just think of yourselves, people. Remember that there is another person involved in this (an OP). They have feelings 2. How do you suppose they will feel when they realize they're an OP?”

Beg your pardon???? Call me a cold-hearted B**[censored], but believe me, I don’t give a toss what OM is up to, and whether me moving on with life hurts his feelings or not.

My final comment on “dating or not” is: I don’t kid myself, I *know* that I have emotional scars all over, I *know* that I have to get a lot of things cleared in my head and heart before I’m ready for the next LT relationship – but in the mean time? I cant see any harm in seeking company in short-term relationships. I enjoy it, cant see anything wrong with it, and cant see why I should deny myself enjoyment (and deny others to receive joy I can give).

Beg your pardon???? Call me a cold-hearted B**[censored], but believe me, I don’t give a toss what OM is up to, and whether me moving on with life hurts his feelings or not.

I could be mistaken, but I think 2 long was referring to the person YOU are dating as the OP- because you are still married and you have the potential to hurt the other person.

2Long – you wrote “Don't just think of yourselves, people. Remember that there is another person involved in this (an OP). They have feelings 2. How do you suppose they will feel when they realize they're an OP?”

Beg your pardon???? Call me a cold-hearted B**[censored], but believe me, I don’t give a toss what OM is up to, and whether me moving on with life hurts his feelings or not.
Course you don't care how the op of your spouse feels. That's natural.

But the op that 2long is writing about is your op, the one you are dating while still married (and not even yet divorcing) to someone else.

LOL Chris- scary how we posted that at the same time!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2 long also has a good point- about healthy individuals can be alone without feeling lonely. I struggle with that too- I think that is why my male friend and I are just friends right now. We both need time to figure out how to do that- and it does take time, whether we want it to or not.

Nick -- A few thoughts -- although you've certainly gotten many already.

I do believe you know when it is time to give up and move on to a different life. Having followed this from day one, I don't think that there is as much hope for the WW as I once did (I think back to all the encouragement we gave eachother to stay in plan A and I have no regrets, but I do not see any movement on the part of your WW nor my WH).

I often experience the same thoughts as you regarding why and there is no why for what has happened. There is a why for how we contributed to the dissatisfaction in our spouses, but there is no understable why for what happens after that. It's tempting to fixate on this question but not productive.

On the dating topic (first I don't think 2long meant the OM in your case, I think he was referring to the person(s) you are dating as possibly being an OP since you are still M). I have mixed feelings about this. I wasn't ready or wanting to date for almost the whole duration of this A and the subsequent plan As and Bs. Attention from men certainly is a self-esteem booster no-doubt and I completely understand your need for this attention. After a long plan A and B to say that your giver is dead and your taker is ruling is an understatement.

That said, it is a difficult time to enter into any kind of relationship. I have given my WH the divorce paperwork and, like you, have given up and do not believe there is any hope to restore my M at this point. Should I date someone? I wrestle with this. Certainly the Harley principles would lead me to the answer no I should not.

More than anything I do think you need to think through "what am I ready for" rather than just focusing on the attention and affection you so badly need right now. I don't know the answer for you. I know for me that I am ready to be divorced. I do not know if I am ready for another relationship. Do I crave affection and other basic human needs? Absolutely. Am I capable of engaging another human being in a healthy relationship? Boy I hope so, but I really don't know. Would I make good choices right now or is it likely I would enter into a relationship with the first kind and attractive man that pays attention to me? Probably the latter and then maybe I would wake up a few months from now recognizing I'd made some bad choices.

Nick, hang in there. Even after you make the decision that your M is over, it is still an emotional rollercoaster and the process of the is just plain no fun. I'll be thinking of you.

Nick, I think Unsureheart put it beautifully well and very eloquently. I think that was what I was trying to say, but didn't do a very good job!!

A friend of mine said to me once about the evil Mr Pound (what a great name, so much better than X, and suits Shiney Head so well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) "With everything that's going on, I don't know how an earth X has space in his head to have an R with someone else"

Now, I'm not suggesting you're having an R, and I know full well the comfort of someone finding you attractive and enjoying some company, but you yourself say how busy you have been with so much on - new job, holidays, getting things sorted.

As you know with me, the rollercoaster doesn't stop just when you make your decisions. It was hard yards for me to cope with all the paperwork, remortgaging, signing over endowments, and just the emotional thing of feeling that I had somehow failed.

I understand too the feeling you would have of "Why me, why should I do it?". I thought the same, but knew the status quo wouldn't change unless I took control of what was happening. Neither did I want to find myself lumbered with his debt, which could of course happen at any given time......

I know some people here at MB have very strong views about whether to date or not. I think we are all entitled to make our own decisions. All I would ask is that you take care of yourself and protect yourself. For me, I couldn't even think of going out with anyone, although I did meet the new squeeze a week or so before the DV became absolute. As I said, in some ways I wish I'd met him maybe 6 months down the line, as I still have to deal with certain emotional marital issues.

Nick, you are a thoughtful and intelligent person. I believe you know what is best for you.

Lisa

Hi Nick,

Just wanted to throw in a note of support... I think you have tried hard and long and seen no results from your efforts. I think you can truly say that you did everything you could to save your marriage, and you can take comfort from that, as well as strength. You behaved honorably. It is your wife's loss that she can not see that.

But, you can't put your life on hold forever, nor can you control your wife and make her change her mind. Even if her decision is foolish. You are wise to recognize this.

I am not as opposed to dating as some on this forum. My feeling is that when a WS is shacked up with someone else, perhaps the BS dating is a logical consequence to that decision. When my H was planning on moving out to be with OW, I made it clear I wouldn't be sitting around at home waiting for him. He didn't like that idea one bit. (In his scenario, I would sit at home waiting for him to decide who he wanted).

There are several caveats to dating though. 1)if you do it too quickly you can just give your WS the green light- they figure you've found someone else too 2) you risk falling in love with another person, not a good idea if you want to save your M
3) you risk hurting or exploiting another human being if you enter a relationship when your heart is not free to love.

In your case, #1 and #2 do not apply. I believe you have accepted that your M is irreparable. The only pitfall is #3. I do believe it is important at this point to overcome any procrastination and file for divorce so that everything is clear and you know that you have truly given up and are moving on. Explain to those ladies that you are very much on the rebound and need some time. And be careful with their hearts- women tend to fall for nice guys and envision a future with them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is also more clear for your daughter if you can say, "Mommy and Daddy are getting divorced, papers have been filed and are being processed. Things will continue in the same way, and we will always love you, but we won't be married any more." That makes it more clear- you truly are getting divorced, it's in the works.

I am not a stickler that you must wait to date until the decree is signed, although many divorce attorneys advise against dating while divorcing because it can inflame the other party (even if your W would have no basis for resentment, it could inflame her and make her more difficult to settle with).

So get that divorce moving along, and I hope you have some nice dating experiences to enjoy!

Best wishes, Espoir

When you realize that it is no longer wise to continue what you are doing, does that mean you give up?

I don't know about that one, somehow I don't see it as you giving up so much as I see it as things being taken out of your hands. I don't see that you have a choice any longer and that the course you are following is the only one that you could at this point in time.

Please learn to take care of you. You matter too.

SS

At the risk of misinterpreting you, SS, I don't believe that "giving up" is an option for anyone of us. Sure, we may "decide" 2 do so out of frustration or something like that, but giving up sounds like stagnation 2 me. It's not even as "good as" "resignation", which is accepting something we can't change. Giving up sounds like wilful ignorance 2 me, which, if I were a religious man, would be one of the 8 deadly sins.

♥2long

<strong> 2long </strong> SORRY. Must have gotten the wrong end of the stick with regard to what you were saying on ‘feelings for the OP’. The reason why I misunderstood you is that any female companion I have at the moment is definitely not to be considered an OP. Thanks <strong> AdGirl </strong> and <strong> Chris </strong> to point out the misunderstanding.

<strong> USH </strong>, many thanks for checking in. Your words of

“I often experience the same thoughts as you regarding why and there is no why for what has happened. There is a why for how we contributed to the dissatisfaction in our spouses, but there is no understable why for what happens after that.”

Are resonating big time with me. Sometimes it’s as if my thoughts are “hung up” in recursive loop or something – not productive, as you rightly say. You also wrote

“After a long plan A and B to say that your giver is dead and your taker is ruling is an understatement.”

How true. But having said that, you cant have any relationship at all (even not a short term one, even not a friendship/companionship/sexual relationship) if there wasn’t an element of “give” in the first place. You’re also spot on that I should focus on “what I’m ready for” as opposed to simply focusing on having my needs fulfilled. I found my answer to that – I’m ready for companionship/friendship covering all my major emotional needs, but I’m not ready to become entangled into another long term relationship. The absolute key issue here is <strong> openness and honesty </strong> – I don’t have a problem of telling my female friends about my situation, what I feel, what I can do and what not.

<strong> Lisa </strong> - You’re a few months “ahead” in terms of dissolving the marriage, so take to heart your comments, particularly
“As you know with me, the rollercoaster doesn't stop just when you make your decisions. It was hard yards for me to cope with all the paperwork, remortgaging, signing over endowments, and just the emotional thing of feeling that I had somehow failed.”
Added to all you mentioned (which still awaits me!) is of course our daughter, which complicates things greatly.

Hi <strong> Espoir </strong> ! Long time no see. I agree with all you said – you mentioned:
“3) you risk hurting or exploiting another human being if you enter a relationship when your heart is not free to love.”
That’s true, and having been for years at the receiving end of a bad relationship and being hurt, the last thing I want to do is emotionally hurt anyone else. I know how it feels. As I said before, honesty and openness help here a lot.

Thanks for the kick up my backside to get trucking with the divorce. Will definitely do so, but let me first start my new job. I seriously got an awful lot flying around my ears at the moment.

<strong> Still Seeking, 2 Long </strong>. Yes, you’re right. “Giving up” could be read in the sense that you don’t care about anything anymore. What I understand with “giving up” is that I give up *my* fight, my hope and my wishful thinking for the recovery of our marriage. As you say, it’s not my decision anymore, I cant influence it anymore – I let go.

<><><><><><><><>

The really, really painful thing to observe is how this all affects our daughter. STBX (first time I use this acronym!) and daughter went on holidays and stayed with common friends in Austria close to the Swiss border. They just finished building a house and he’s a music teacher in a school. Guess what STBX now wants? Everybody who guessed “move there, build a house and become a music teacher too” gets full marks. I mean, you can’t just look at a life, thinking “hmm I like that, let me just copy it”. It just shows how much she lost her marbles. Last months' flavour was studying here in the UK and staying in London. Before it was moving to San Francisco to live with OM. And so on and on and on.
And guess who’s suffering. Last weekend, when I had our daughter for the first time after our holidays, she was stammering and was very upset. Will you come to visit us daddy when we live there? Where will I go to school daddy? Etc etc. Just made me so angry and depressed, it’s all just so unfair. On the positive side, I was able to give her enough emotional stability that she calmed down and stopped stammering after half a day. But it upset me hugely, (her too, of course) and she gets now very, very upset very quickly.

Thanks everybody, will post an update from time to time – the road is clear and there for all to see; the rollercoaster of divorce started.

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>