What I’m about to say will seem bizarre, and it is bizarre, but I must say it all here and ask people who have gone through this if they can offer support or give me other advice. I'm not posting in Just Found Out because maybe I don't belong there, even though I just found out.

First, I need to tell more about me. I grew up with an alcoholic father until the age of 11 when my mother divorced him. As a child, I was told that daddy “isn’t himself tonight” or is “out of sorts” or “had a little too much to drink”. The truth was that he was sloshing drunk. He was a wonderful man when sober, and a horrible man when he was drunk. The older I got the more he drank until it was too much and my mother divorced him.

This is why I can’t handle what I might be unkindly calling doublespeak here. I need the truth. If my husband fell in love with another woman, I need to call it falling in love, and not something like “a fog”. If in two years he decides he wasn’t really in love with her for 6 years, 2 years emotionally and 4 years physically, that’s for him to decide. But couldn’t he say the exact thing about ME right now, then? Couldn’t he say, well, I thought I loved my wife but now I feel different?

Of course emotions change. That, to me, is a given. If he feels something right now, I need to address it head on.

If it means I don’t belong here, then I don’t. My husband is in love with another woman and he told me to my face that he loves her. I have 1000 pages of emails they wrote to each other for 4 years, and that doesn’t count the time they talked and spent together. While I am split apart and still crawling and crying nonstop, I am the kind of person who has to face things as they are.

My mother and stepfather arrived yesterday. Seeing him was a surprise because I didn’t know he was coming. My mother held me all day yesterday and let me cry in her arms while my stepfather took the kids. I needed to cry in someone’s arms and today I feel a little bit better. I thought I cried every tear in my body but I’m still crying so there’s more, but I feel better. Maybe the antidepressants are also starting to kick in.

This is the bizarre part. My mother and stepfather sat with me last night after the kids went to sleep and told me their story. Believe it or not, my stepfather was married when he met my mother. He was also married to an alcoholic woman. You get the rest. Yes, they had an affair. He left and married my mother. I knew nothing of this until last night. My stepfather introduced me to Ala-teen as a teen, and provided me the stability I had never had with my father. I love both of them with all my heart. My biological father got sober after the divorce and I have some contact with him, but my stepfather is the man who truly raised me once he came into my life.

When I heard this I cried even harder. Yes, it was painful, I was horrified to say the least, and I started yelling at both of them first. But my mother held me and let me rant and scream until I had nothing left inside. These two people are the ones who love me most and I love them. My stepfather said he came so that I can ask him any questions about men who have affairs. My mother said she will support whatever I do, but that she has ideas of her own about how I should proceed.

My stepfather explained that there are two kinds of men in affairs. There are the men who never think of leaving, and the ones who think of leaving. If my husband is thinking of leaving, they both agreed that I should spend time with him this weekend, then immediately go to what you here call Plan B. Tell him to go to OW with my blessings, do not threaten with finances or the children, and maintain my dignity by not allowing him to come sleep with me.

My mother told me this: A woman will fight to her death to save a relationship. A man has no idea what he has until it’s gone. Only when he thinks he lost something will he start to fight to keep it, and even then, his fight is instinct. As a woman, you have to watch carefully to see why he’s fighting.

My stepfather agreed.

My stepfather told me some of the things a man goes through when he has an affair. He told me how the affair may not be the stuff of a longterm relationship, but if it is, I need to prepare myself NOW rather than later.

I think this makes sense. I am not the kind of person who can kiss my husband hello and seduce him while I know his heart is with someone else, or he just slept with her. Again, if I don’t belong here, tell me, but my God. I have my own honor and dignity. How on earth could I look myself in the mirror knowing that I opened my legs to a man who is disrespecting me in the most horrific and disgusting way? Am I supposed to forget that he is leaving to go with OW while I try to satisfy him sexually? I’m not a game player. I don’t do cult-speak. I signed up to be with one man who wants to be with me. If he wants to be with her, he doesn’t get me. My stepfather absolutely agreed with this. He told me that as long as I have sex with my husband knowing he is having sex with that woman, my husband gets the message it's OK.

Maybe he and I will end up in bed this weekend. I’m not saying I won’t. But only if I hear certain things that I haven’t heard yet.

I have read about ENs. My husband never told me in any way that he was unhappy. I read ForeverHers post to me (thank you) about OW’s H’s unwillingness to take responsibility for creating an environment for an affair, so that means I need to take responsibility too. I will, but how when he never said a word? NOT ONE! Not ONE word that there was something missing or lacking or wrong. I am willing to take responsibility, but I have to know FOR WHAT.

My husband will be here around 10:00. If any of you can deal with me straight on, I’d appreciate it. I want to spend time with him, ask him a few questions – even though the Harleys say you can’t trust anything out of his mouth, am I supposed to treat him like a child? Or like he has lost his mind for four years? I need to treat him like an adult who made decisions and who better start telling me those decisions. He either wants to come home right now, cut contact with OW and go to counseling, or I go to Plan B immediately, and rely on my parents and the antidepressants for strength.

I’ve started praying again and will continue to do so. Thank you for all of your previous replies to me and for any thoughts you have now.

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: neversuspected ]</small>

neversuspected - Thank you for your kind word.

Okay, the "burning question is 'what to do?'".

Before attempting to suggest an answer to that question, let me make a few other relevant comments based on your post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is why I can&#8217;t handle what I might be unkindly calling doublespeak here. I need the truth. If my husband fell in love with another woman, I need to call it falling in love, and not something like &#8220;a fog&#8221;. If in two years he decides he wasn&#8217;t really in love with her for 6 years, 2 years emotionally and 4 years physically, that&#8217;s for him to decide. But couldn&#8217;t he say the exact thing about ME right now, then? Couldn&#8217;t he say, well, I thought I loved my wife but now I feel different?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doublespeak is NOT what you will get, at least not from me. In your husband's mind he probably thinks that he did/does love the OW. It IS different for most men than it is for most women. Women by their nature tend to much more emotionally entwined, where with men it's more a "feeling" in response to feeling "needed" or a "stud". In my case, my wife's affair was 6 years long. She was, in her mind, most definitely "in love" with the OM. She "accepted" a proposal of marriage from him a couple of years into the affair. She had all the plans and legal documents drawn up for a divorce. She told me when we began recovery that she didn't love me. Yes, NS, it's "typical" of affairs and the "foggy" state of their minds that they confuse things and only see and hear what they want to and what makes them "feel good". THAT is doublespeak, not what you will get here.

If you are interested in reading a little more about this "saga", I will give you the links to my first two posts. They are relevant to your situation, but also may be painful because of the feelings that they might trigger in you. But what I want you to see is that in a surrendered life to Christ there is HOPE.

First timer - help needed

Miracles happen when you are obedient to God

NS, these threads are a little long, so take your time in reading them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have read about ENs. My husband never told me in any way that he was unhappy. I read ForeverHers post to me (thank you) about OW&#8217;s H&#8217;s unwillingness to take responsibility for creating an environment for an affair, so that means I need to take responsibility too. I will, but how when he never said a word? NOT ONE! Not ONE word that there was something missing or lacking or wrong. I am willing to take responsibility, but I have to know FOR WHAT. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NS, I, too had no idea at the beginning. Through reading here and elsewhere I began to understand the difference in the EN's of both of us. You won't understand "For What" until you are able to discuss what your husband felt was lacking. When you do this, let me warn you to not get defensive and angry. What you want is HIS perception of what was lacking, whether or not you think it is real or justified. What you want is how HE thinks certain things were met by the OW that HE FELT were missing from your marriage. Then you can evaluate if there is a "grain of truth" in anything that he mentions. If there is, then you can work at changing the behaviors that caused the "negative" impression.

If it's more about "him" and his selfishness, ala "there's nothing wrong with you", then you are dealing with self-image, self-esteem, or a sexual addiction problem, more than likely. In that case you need to focus on 'real talk', like any addiction (alcohol or anything else) and how you can be his "help meet" and supporter as he seeks to overcome HIS weakness.

Either way, it's not a short or pain free journey. You will have to make decisions based on the responses you get, how much you truly love him despite the painful things that he has done. There are no guarantees that the marriage will survive, but one thing is clear, it WILL NOT survive if there is any Other Woman in your husband's life, unless you are content with being a "second wife" or a "doormat".

God established the covenant of Marriage to be an exclusive arrangement between husband, wife and God. The vow of the covenant is to "forsake all others" in the same manner that God will tolerate "having any 'gods' before Him". There is NO option here.

As you will see from my first thread, I deeply loved, and love, my wife. But when she "chose" the other man, I had no option but to honor God's covenant and tell her to leave. SHE had to decide who she would obey, her own "feelings" or God. You may well be faced with the same decision to make. It is NOT pain free. I wish it were. But REALITY and the LIGHT SHINING ON THE SIN is what is needed. God will be there for you regardless of any sin and it's consequences. God is interested in helping each of us individually, as we allow Him to lead us and we obey Him in humbly submitting to His commands and teaching.

Neversuspected, spend some time in reading Scripture today and in telling God about your situation. He already knows, but He would like to hear from you so that He can talk with you. Then, before your meeting with your husband, read and embrace God's true blessing of His supernatural provision for you in Philippians 4:13.

God bless. Keep posting. There are many here who will try to help. Take those things that are godly and apply them. Sift the suggestions for what may be applicable to your situation, a situation that only you know all the "ins and outs" of.

May God grant you His wisdom, strength, and comfort during this most difficult of times.

dear neversuspected ~

Nothing you said was bizarre....sadly, it is quite normal. I say sadly because while I am glad you have come here for help, it is a very awful, and horribly painful event that brought you to us.

Do you go to Al-Anon? Living with the effects of alcoholism is too much for most people - and has long lasting effects. You didn't say if your husband is an alcoholic - but don't underestimate the impact of your father's disease and your mother's dysfunctional reaction to it. I come from an alcoholic background and am married to an active alcoholic, and I probably wouldn't survive without my Sunday night Al-Anon meeting! When my husband had his affair, I turned to my Al-Anon program and my sponsor...and I can not stress enough to you how much this helped me in every aspect of the affair.

But lets get some things straightened out though - there is very little of what you are calling "doublespeak" here. That can't be farther from the truth. I think you may be misunderstanding some of the terms here, and understandably, you are very suspicious right now, of ANYTHING anyone says. You've had "truth" and "reality" blown out from under you too many times!

Yes, your husband is "in love" with his OW. He is not "in love" with you. Does that mean your marriage is over? Absolutely not. I think probably the first thing that you need to address is exactly what your "truths" about love and marriage are. After you examine those, maybe a test of the accuracy of those beliefs might be in order. Yep, I am telling you that yet something else that you have believed in your life may not be as true as you thought.

I can imagine that you feel like your entire world has been turned inside out, and you aren't sure what is real and what isn't anymore. I've been there, more than once in my life, after discovering that all the "truths" I thought about my world were uncovered as totally false. Hearing about your mother's affair just added to that trauma I am afraid.

That's why in Al-Anon they suggest that you wait for at least 6 months before making life-altering decisions. During that 6 months, its suggested that you just work on YOU and your own recovery, be it from the affects of living with alcoholism, or from the affects of an affair.

A word of caution about your mother and stepfather's "truths" about affairs. Much of what you related here is probably good advice - maintaining your dignity, not screaming, not crying, not trying to get petty revenge...these things are what we call Plan A. But something concerns me - their marriage started with an affair....and there is NEVER an excuse for an affair. Unless there has been real remorse and responsibilty on their part for their own affair....they aren't going to be exactly the best people to lean on. And the bottom line is, that YOU are the only person who has to live with your choices. What they have to say to you is going to be colored - to condemn his affair would be to condemn themselves....so you see...while I am not saying ignore them....I am saying take their advice with a big huge grain of salt.

This is yet a second big instant of your mother telling you "truths" about reality that are false. (Your father's disease, and your mothers marriage) You must be so very angry at her right now!! Al-Anon is also a very good place to learn how to cope with anger in a healthy fashion.

Now, lets talk about Fog, and lets talk about Feelings.

What's fog? Fog is NOT doublespeak used by BSes in denial.

FOG is the inexhaustible list of crazy, stupid, rationalizations, justifications, and bizarre behavior that comes from the wayward spouse to excuse their affair.

FOG is real. Once a BS learns to recognize the incomprehensible babble coming from their WS's mouth - other steps towards personal recovery can be taken - regardless of wether or not the marriage is saved. (see Orchid's wonderful posts on fog babble, she's priceless)

FOG from a WS having an affair is EXACTLY like the babble-talk coming from an alcoholic to justify his drinking.

I didn't have MB durin the height of my H's affair. When his fog-speak came out at me, I'd call my Al-anon sponsor and cry. And she'd say to me: "BR, his "truths" do not have to be YOUR truth."

What a relief! Because my husband's "truths" at that time did not match ANYTHING I had known to be true.

That sense of complete upside down distortion of reality, my complete inability to discern what was real....began to lessen as I learned to trust my OWN perceptions, and to ignore the FOG coming out of my husband's mouth.

Now, sometimes, there are new people here, that will say that their spouse is not really in love with the OP, that is FOG, and that once the FOG clears that their WS will suddenly realize that he never stopped loving the BS.

I can tell you right now that this was NOT the case in my marriage, and I don't think it is the case in very many at all. I think that sometimes the WS rewrites history when trying to reconcile with the BS ("I never really loved the OP, I always loved you" is probably most often a placation given by a WS to an enraged, heartbroken BS in a selfish, desperate attempt to make an uncomfortable situation more comfortable for themeselves - it is certainly not honest, betrayal is never an act of love no matter which way you twist it).

My husband fell out of love with me, and fell in love with another woman. 3.5 years later...my husband is no longer in love with that woman, and is in fact, in love with me.

We are simply talking about feelings. Feelings are usually a good barometer about what is going on in your life - BUT - a lifetime of choices based on your feelings is bound to be one of chaos. In the case of marriage....that you are not feeling love towards your spouse is an indication that something is wrong with the relationship, and that changes need to be made...but it does NOT invalidate the marriage, and it certainly does not justify an affair.

My Al-Anon sponsor said to me: "BR, feelings just ARE. They are facts....you can choose to let them control you or not." Working with my sponsor, I learned to recognize when I was having a feeling, instead of reacting in a kneejerk fashion, I learned to examine WHY I felt that way, and then make appropriate changes in my life if necessary.

Unfortunately, one of the foggiest rationalizations for affairs is "I am not in love with you, I am in love with the OP."

Somehow the justification is that if your spouse fell out of love with you and in love with someone else, that your marriage/love was somehow false. The crazy assumption is that "If OUR love was real, I wouldn't have fallen in love with someone else".

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

In your case, with a 4 year affair, it sounds to me as if your husband's feelings of love towards the OW are based on a fantasy - not reality. Affairs thrive in secrecy, and on fantasy. Often, as long as the WS is getting needs met by both a spouse and a OP, the affair will continue. When the BS stops meeting needs, thus forcing the WS to turn 100% to the OP, the affair falls apart.

The WS wasn't getting his/her most important needs met in the marriage....so fell out of love. The WS starts feeling love because an OP comes along and fills the void. But when the BS stops filling the rest of those needs, most often the OP fails to step up to the plate. And all of a sudden, the WS finds himself out of love with the OP, and desperate to get the BS back - because the needs that you are NOT getting filled always become the most important!

Is your marriage saveable? I don't know. Do you want to save your marriage? Now that the truth is in the open, you have some choices about your life to make.

You can choose to cut your losses and move on. Yes, this is a pro-marriage community, but most of us realize that not all marriages can or should be saved, AND, that a BS does have the right to choose to divorce instead of attempt to save the marriage.

If you do choose to try to save your marriage, its going to take a tremendous amount of work on yourself, self-examination with the rose-colored glasses OFF, and even then, no guarantees that your spouse will make his own choice to return to the marriage.

"Change ME???" you ask. Yep, Plan A is not about changing or manipulating your spouse. Plan A is about taking responsibilty for your 50% of your marriage, and demonstrating to your spouse that you are willing to recognize where you may have been wrong, and change those things. This does NOT mean taking responsiblity for the WS's decision (that lies 100% with the WS), but it means recognizing that 50% of the environment of the marriage prior to the affair was/is your responiblity.

You can demonstrate this willingness by doing a good Plan A. Plan A means changing YOU - it means making changes that will be good for YOU, and make YOU a better person and a better marriage partner, regardless of whether or not the WS returns.

Just keep coming back, and keep reading. There are many wonderful people here who have been there, done that, and I doubt there are many people with situations so unique that a variation hasn't been seen here. You'll get lots of support.

((((hugs)))

neversuspected,

As the previous posters gave a very comprehensive reply, I can only offer my sympathy for where you're at and tell you to take their words to heart. It's some excellent advice.

Thank you ENDLESSLY for these posts! I feel like you understand what I'm saying and are not trying to placate me. Brighterdays, you obviously understand the trauma of living with an alcoholic, so you know what I mean when I say I need "the truth".

Of course she is my mother so I have to be defensive, but neither my mother or stepfather defended their affair. They did, however, explain as best as possible under my relentless questioning why they did what they did. It helped me to understand things coming from the mouths of the participants. My mother and stepfather raised me to be honest. It may sound hypocritical, but their marriage is loving and they taught me what I needed after having suffered from my father's alcoholism.

I have already made a mental appointment to go back to Al-anon on Sunday and get a sponsor. Thank you so much for understanding. I'm reeling with all of this new information but some of the basics I learned so long ago keep popping up: I can't control anyone but me. Ask for help in meeting God's will, not my will right now. I didn't cause it, I can't control it. Etc. First things First. Etc. These little slogans help focus me on something besides the pain.

Having read here, I do understand that a marriage can be reconstructed after such a devastating blow. I read that in your posts and know it to be true. I know it may take time. It also may be the case that my husband wants out. Even if he wants to come back later, if he wants out now, I have to be prepared.

I am blessed and also horrified, of course, by that example of my stepfather and mother. I am horrified to the core to think that my husband may have found in his OW what my stepfather found in my mother. But on the other hand, it also gives me hope that if my husband and I divorce, there may be someone else out there who can understand devotion better than my husband.

ForeverHers, I don't have time to read them right now, but I'll read them. Thank you. As I said, i'm not a student of the Bible, but Al-anon is based on a close relationship with God. I know I need to get back to that.

He'll be here in 15 minutes. Thanks, and pray for me.

<small>[ August 23, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: neversuspected ]</small>

neversuspected, I am sorry you are in such pain. Foreverhers and Bramblerose have given you some of the best advice I have read here on MB so far and I have nothing of value to add, but wanted you to know that I hear and understand your pain.

Our stories share some similarities and I, too, wish to thank ForeverHers and Bramblerose for their replys to you as they helped me tremendously as well.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I know you are with your husband as I write this post and want you to know that I said a prayer for you and your family. I pray that God will give you the strength you need.

<small>[ August 23, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: One_Day_At_A_Time ]</small>

Hello, NS, I'm not sure I can claim to be an old-timer, but I just wanted to remind you it is one week from D-Day. In your first post, you sounded very sure of yourself and your opinions. Those will change, and are probably changing even as I write this post. This is a roller-coaster ride, as many have said, and your thoughts and feelings will alter drastically over the coming weeks and months.

You also questioned whether the A was not fog, but "real," whatever that means. May I point out that if the A is so "real" -- why did he continue to live with you for four more years? There must have been something "real" in your relationship, too -- perhaps more "real" than A.

The reason it's fog is that a lot of As are based on imagination. My H's appears to be, and not only in my opinion. In our culture, we tend to treat falling in love as "real" and legitimate -- in fact, it is just a set of enthusiastic emotions about someone, which may or may not be based on real qualities in the OP and WS. Because the BSs ENs are being met in the marriage, too, the reality of what they are getting in the A is more likely to be imaginary than it would be for two uncommitted people in the population at large. Though God knows, there's plenty of imagination there, too! (Sounds like your mother and stepfather are exceptions -- there are those, too. But it's good not to confuse the exception with the rule.)

Being in love is fun. It's a drug. But you can't build a life with everyone you fall in love with. By definition, a marriage means commitment, and it does change the formula. And a marriage that's lasted any length of time does have some merits over an A. It's proven that love can survive certain difficulties and the revelation of faults.

<small>[ August 24, 2003, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Heya, NS --

A few words from me, not to duplicate the great stuff that's come before, but to focus a little more on what Plan A is all about.

It's about ONE thing. Ending the affair. Your mom and stepdad may be right that Plan B isn't such a bad idea. You can do a VERY short Plan A if you want to, but there are things that you need to do. First, keep those emotions under control! God it's hard, but it's needed. I'm glad you've got the antidepressants.

Second, expose expose expose the affair!

Third, NEGOTIATE with your husband about ending it. Make sure that includes COMPLETE NC, with an NC letter and every single precaution you can think of to check to make sure that he can't get back to his addiction.

And set a timeline to get this stuff done. Two days, two weeks, two months? Whatever you think is right for you.

Talk to Cerri to get some help with how long it oughta be. She's got a great head for this stuff. And much as your mom and stepdad are helping you, remember that they have their own issues and history that this all triggers. They probably can't give you completely unbiased and accurate advice, though their thoughts and feelings will be a wonderful input.

It sounds like you're in a great place to make a lot of progress, but you've got a huge uphill battle ahead of you, just like we all do.

We're here for you, and you WILL live through this. One step, one minute, one breath at a time.

What a day! I'm too tired and don't have time to write it all out now, but my husband and I talked and cried and talked all day long. He just left to get a breath of fresh air, and I'm sure to call that woman which is killing me but I can't stop him from doing it, and he will spend the night. He already knows I don't know if I can make love with him, but there's no pressure. Tomorrow morning he will spend time with the kids and then spend the afternoon with me again.

He answered all the questions I threw at him. I need time to think. I am still hurting like I can't describe and his answers were not what I wanted to hear. But we are communicating.

To the person who wrote that I seemed so sure of myself when I started posting: I have a very logical mind when it comes to crises. I can write these posts as if I am coherent and then I read them and wonder who wrote them. My mind does not speak my heart. There are no words.

NS, oh believe me when I tell you that we all understand the "disconnect" between your mind and your heart. We've all "been there" as it were.

Awaiting the time when you feel up to posting more about your conversation.

God bless.

Good morning. I am going to try to write this all out and ask your advice. I know I write rather emotionless, but it&#8217;s the way I clear my head of all of these swirling thoughts.

My husband and I talked for hours yesterday. We cried a lot, hugged a lot, and I believe he still loves me. I know I still love him. Knowing that he loves me, truly loves me, soothes some of this horrible, horrible pain, but it&#8217;s also so damned confusing! If he loves me, what does love mean? I feel like everything I&#8217;ve ever believed is shattered in a million tiny pieces in my heart, and that somehow, some way I will have to put it all back together again. Maybe with him, maybe without him.

I keep thinking of all of the comfort I got in Al-Anon and can&#8217;t wait to get to a meeting tonight. I&#8217;ve started praying again for God to show me His will, and I am remembering that a major teaching of 12 step work is acceptance. The sooner I&#8217;m able to accept, the sooner I will be at peace. It doesn&#8217;t mean I have to like any of it. But my heart and my head keep screaming that this can&#8217;t be! This can&#8217;t be real! This can&#8217;t be my life! It&#8217;s a horrible mistake! These things happen to others but not to me! I struggle daily with falling into the trap of self-pity. I learned long ago that self-pity makes the pain stay longer, but the pain is like knives!

My husband knows that I want and need the truth. I made that clear to him yesterday. Having those emails certainly helped. He was horribly nervous and was shaking as hard as me. But thank God we both had at least that understanding. The truth. I know everyone says it&#8217;s the fog talking, but even if it is, it&#8217;s all I have right now.

I asked him why he didn&#8217;t tell me he was unhappy before he met that woman. He told me that he wasn&#8217;t unhappy. He told me that he loved me and the kids. I am a fantastic mother and wife, and that he never felt like he was missing anything.

I asked him to please explain as truthfully as possible how he could then get involved with someone else!

He said that he worked with her on a project for about a year. My husband can be formidable when he&#8217;s stressed at work. He said she wasn&#8217;t afraid of him, she stood up to him and even made him laugh. It was all within the context of work. She was married, he was married, he said he never thought of an affair with her in the beginning. He said she was someone he learned to count on in his business, that&#8217;s all.

He said that relationship started to progress when she was promoted and became his right hand man. They had to consult each other more often and that the days were so busy, sometimes they couldn&#8217;t talk until after business hours. So they&#8217;d meet in his office and talk business and soon they just started talking about other things. He said they never said any of the old clichés about having bad marriages. They just talked and talked about &#8230; things.

I asked him why he didn&#8217;t tell me this. Why he didn&#8217;t tell me about her. Why he didn&#8217;t invite her over and get her out in the open. I think this is where you would say the fog talk starts. He said he wouldn&#8217;t have invited a male business associate over, why would he invite a female? He said he told himself it was a friendship.

I asked him why he didn&#8217;t talk about the things he talked to her about with me. He couldn&#8217;t answer for awhile. Then he said something that hurt, really hurt, but my God, I can&#8217;t say it isn&#8217;t true.

He said &#8211; honey, you and I never talked about those things. You aren&#8217;t interested in politics and current events and sports, are you? How could I try to make you into somebody you aren&#8217;t? You and I also don't work together. I spend most of my day dealing with work and every event in the world that affects the business. Was I supposed to come home and say, hey honey, my coworker and I talk about all of these things, can you be that person for me too?

I cried my eyes out. He apologized for saying that but I finally told him that he&#8217;s right. I am me. I am not HER or anyone else. He said it wasn&#8217;t like he ever felt that I was lacking, but that when they started talking, it was another side of him he said he probably put away a long time ago but it got reawakened. That these were things he talked about with the guys, but rarely with a woman.

I read their emails. Like I said, I felt like I was reading about another man. Not my husband.

I asked him if he ever thought for one minute what this would do to me. He cried. He said yes, he did. He hated himself for being the man he had become. He hated the lies and the double life. I asked him if SHE ever thought about it, or if she was happy dragging down our marriage because hers had fallen apart. He was silent. I wanted him to say SOMETHING bad about her. I wanted him to tell me ANYTHING that would show me he doesn&#8217;t really care for her. He didn&#8217;t answer.

I asked if he was prepared to give up the double life. He said he didn&#8217;t know what to do. I was going to tell him to leave until he had it figured out, but we both were crying so hard and needed to hold each other. We both just needed to hold each other. That&#8217;s when he left last night to get some air, and he came back, and we held each other all night. We didn&#8217;t make love, but I felt his feelings for me.

He got up early to take the kids on a hike and will be back by noon. I&#8217;m going to sit down with my mother and stepfather and tell them everything.

He did not say he is ready to give her up and that he wants to come home. This is tearing me apart, so I have to be prepared to go to what you call Plan B if he can&#8217;t make his decision this afternoon.

I am praying for strength.

I keep reading these explanations of how the feelings in the affair are imaginary and not real. Or maybe you are all saying that the feelings are real but the relationship is imaginary.

Look, I am no fool. Maybe I am headstrong and willful, but I don't buy into that kind of talk. What on earth is IMAGINARY about spending all day with a woman at work who is your right hand man in business, with whom you feel more comfortable talking about things besides your family than your wife, and who you SLEEP WITH and share your body??

I mean, I'm not feelig like I've been spliced open and left on the floor without anasthesia because my husband IMAGINES he cares for this woman, I feel that way because he has had a RELATIONSHIP with her while lying to me about it. I feel that way because of all of the REAL THINGS he has done with her!

If it turns out that one day he says he never felt the way he says he feels now, that will be then. But what am I to believe? If I was to follow that mode of thinking, then anyone could believe ANY cheater when they say they weren't really in love with their wife.

I've read that you call it rewriting history. If people can rewrite history of a marriage, won't they rewrite history of an affair?

I'm sorry but I'm very logical. If his relationship is based on fantasy and imagination, does he turn that off when he comes home and lives in reality? Is this state of fantasy and imagination confined only to HER, or to the rest of his life?

Can you build such a fantasy over four years? Is there ANY reality in it?

My God. If this marriage is to survive, he is going to have to be honest about his feelings for that woman and I am going to have to learn how to confront the truth and move THROUGH it, not dance around it and pretend it away.

That's what I learned in Al-anon. The only way to heal is to move through something.

I'm sorry if I'm taking my anger out here. I'm just so tired of hearing that this relationship is in his imagination. It's real enough. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

It doesn't look like anyone is around to respond.

Is it the things I'm saying? I just feel like I've been brutally ripped out of what I THOUGHT was reality, only to learn that everything I based my life on is NOT REAL. That my husband loves only me, that he is faithful, that he honors me, that he looks forward only to coming home to me and our beautiful children. I've been living as if all of this were true, and then I find out that MY marriage, MY relationship with a man I promised my life to is based on lies, lies, lies, lies lies and the worst kind of deciet a man can do to a woman.

I feel like my marriage is a pile of rubble at my feet and there is no real ground to stand on. What is fantasy and what is reality? I was living as if my version of life was true and it isn't. I was happy. I loved him. I gave him my trust and my life. I wasn't given a chance to know different! None of that is FAIR. None of it! He TOOK that away from me, they both did!

But I'm looking out ahead of me and all I know is that I don't know what is real or not. So why do I need to call THEIR relationship a fantasy when my God, my life has been a lie. My marriage has been an illusion and he knew it!!! He KNEW it! He KNEW I believed in him and our marriage, he KNEW I trusted him, and he KNEW all of that was one big fat ugly lie!!!!

Also, what hurts almost more than that, if it's possible, is that BOTH OF THEM KNEW about her husband and me, but I didn't know about them. Who has the truth here? Me, who has been sitting in the dark loving a man who has come home every night and lied to me, or them, who knew about the marriages? I can't escape any of these thoughts.

Does anyone else understand what I'm saying? I am sure you do. Are you out there??

<small>[ August 24, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: neversuspected ]</small>

ns,

It's Sunday and there were only two hours between your last posts. You probaby won't get much response. These boards tend to be much slower on the weekends. And I can't speak for the other members, but many of your questions seem to be rhetorical. We understand how you feel. These questions are normal. The only problem is that there isn't a concrete answer for many of them. I'm in recovery myself and have accepted that I will NEVER know the answer to many of the why/how questions.

So we can only offer more concrete advice. Read SAA. There are a number of other great books on the subject as well. Do the EN worksheets with your H. Get into counseling either with or without your H.

It's often mentioned here that you can't do anything to change the past, or change your H. The only person you can control is yourself and your reactions to events.

We're here for you. Just be patient and try to keep focused on what you CAN do.

Dobie

ns,

You may also want to check out The Ladies Board . This is our Ladies' board. There's a chat room there, so you may be able to find someone to talk to in "real time". The room is often empty, but if you wait long enough someone will eventually poke her head in.

Dobie

NS,

I, like you, am a fairly logical thinker. I understand your objections to the talk about "fog." If it were merely a "dreamlike" state, wouldn't he have woken up a long time ago and returned to the marriage?

But logical minds like ours don't (or sometimes can't) take into account some of the emotional turmoil that the broils within the human mind. For instance, how can it be true that he can love two women at one time if true love means you dedicate yourself to only one person?

Does that mean he doesn't love you? Or her? No. He loves you both -- for different reasons.

But he can't have you both as he has for the past four years. It has been killing him all along and now it is killing you as well. He has reached the crossroads and it is time to make a choice. Everyone will be hurt -- you, him, OW, her H. Yes, that is the REAL fallout from a very real affair.

But your logical mind might have to accept some very illogical truths. He does love you. He does love her. That is illogical, is it not? He might make the decision to stay with you -- only for the kids -- and you should accept that. You know why? Because it is likely that the longer he is away from her, the more clearly he will see that it was you where his lasting love lives, and it is with you that he wants to live his life. He may even come one day to say that what he felt for her was a romantic, freeing, emotional flight but that what he has with you is so much more "real".

Sound illogical? It is. But still, it is the truth.

The relationship he has with OW is based on lies and deceit. They only see the sides of each other that they want the other to see. But he can't see that right now. He only sees that she fills a need in him that, frankly, he never gave you a chance to fill. Logic told him that you would never change, that you'd never want to learn about the business and talk about his dealings, or that you'd never be interested in politics, or discussions like the ones he has with her.

But why not? That was then. This is now. Are you an android incapable of deep thought? Obviously not. You have many deep thoughts, and your husband doesn't see that. Is that logical? That a man could live with a woman for so many years and not see that she has these deep thoughts and yearnings? Is that logical? Nope. But he was unable to connect to you in that way and yet he allowed OW to step in and create a need he didn't even know existed.

I guess I am saying is that logical is a great thing at times, but sometimes you have to listen to what your heart is saying as well. Because of the length of this affair, it is likely you are in for a long haul where he will have to be completely separated from her (no contact whatsoever) and you will both need to do a lot of work in order to become a better mate for eache other, ones that meet each other's needs better.

But if you keep trying to thinking only in terms of logic, you won't be able to take into account some of the illogical, heart-based platform that the affair is based on and you'll miss the opportunity to become the wife your husband needs in order to break off his relationship with OW.

God bless you. Keep reading. Learn. Think. But also let your heart join in on the conversation.

NS -

I'm here, and just read everything. Deep breaths, hon. Deep, deep breaths.

I've been where you are. The horror, the pain, the incredible wrench when your entire reality is suddenly turned on its head. It's the hardest thing you'll ever feel. I wish I could sit and talk to you on a porch somewhere. I wish I could give you a glass of water.

Heck, I wish someone would give ME a glass of water sometimes!

What people say about affairs is not that they are imaginary, nor that the feelings are. They say that it's based on a FANTASY. Sure, your husband has a lot of reality in his relationship with the OW. But it's not a marriage! A marriage is about practical things, as well as loving things. It's about kids and finances and mowing the lawn and making dinner every night. It's about being happy or sad or angry or afraid. It's about LIVING.

What your husband has been doing is ... different than those things. The way that he feels is real. The way a cocaine addict feels is real. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT LIVING. It doesn't make it healthy or strong or good or right.

It doesn't make it the kind of love that's a warm nest for children to thrive in.

It doesn't make it the kind of love that gets up in the middle of the night just to check on everyone.

It doesn't make it the kind of love that takes a deep breath and then lets it out, instead of saying something hurtful.

It doesn't make it the kind of love that lasts.

Breathe, NS. Breathe and breathe and breathe. You're in the middle of the worst turmoil you've ever been in. If you're not ready to make a decision, then DON'T DO ANYTHING DRASTIC! Take the time you need to think things through. Talk to the Harleys or to Penny Tupy. And breathe some more. Pray if you're the praying sort.

And in the meantime, understand that your husband is lost right now. His anchors to the life he's lived for so long are coming loose, just like yours are. He'll say and do things that he doesn't mean and will regret. So will you.

Take this time in 15-minute bursts. Live through each one at a time, and don't worry about what will come next. Your emotions and heart and head and spirit are too fragile to focus on long term plans. Just breathe and live. Clarity will come, though it will be a hard, hard road getting there. But you'll find it.

NS,
I had a four year affair, and separated two years after it began. It's a long story, and I don't wish to go into it here as Im thinking of YOU.
I'm now divorced due to the affair, and I ended the affair before the divorce was final.

Someone said to you> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In your case, with a 4 year affair, it sounds to me as if your husband's feelings of love towards the OW are based on a fantasy - not reality. Affairs thrive in secrecy, and on fantasy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very true. You also asked something about how your husband could be in this affair, and then come home to reality. It's called compartmentalizing, and most of us who have affairs do it. I did, although I've read it's more common for men to be able to do it.

I feel there's a lot of hope for your marriage. You know of the affair, but yet you and your husband are able to sit together and hug, talk, etc. My exH would never sit and hug me as we discussed the affair! I'm still waiting for that forgiveness. You seem to give forgiveness/kindness to your husband. Keep doing it, and tell him you're trying to understand.

I had an affair w/a married man, too. It was all fantasy, fantasy. Extremely intense, and we talked constantly. He always talked of his wife so I'm sure he loved her.

One more thing. You mentioned that you were going to discuss yesterday's happenings with your husband with your mom and stepdad. I would advise you not to do this! Come here instead, or go to a pastor. Friends and family aren't much help in an affair, really. Besides, you should be mainly talking with your husband about it. Furthermore, look at your mom's own background. They're going to try and justify their actions and act like it's an okay start for a marriage.

I doubt your husband is in love with this woman. He's in love with the feelings of intensity that an affair brings. There's no reality of life in an affair. My exOM told his wife he was in love with me,too. He moved five hundred miles away from her to live near me, giving up a great job. He's now still married to her( as far as I know) and he's back where she lives. How in love were we, truly? Not at all. All sick fantasy based on lies.

Gotta go now, duty calls here at home.

Take care,
H_P

Try changing the name of your topic to URGENT HELP NEEDED. You can do this by going to your first post and clicking on the paper and pencil icon to edit.

BRAMBLE ROSE's Response to you was wonderful. Please listen to it.

I am not an oldtimer or a veteran. But I will tell you that PLAN A then followed by PLAN B will work for you. My WS told me that he was in love with the OW in December. He had a long-term A. He is not with me yet but is struggling to get back with me. In December, he really was acting as if he HATED me. Stay on MB and, believe me, you will get the help that you need.

If I were you, I would be careful about listening to the counsel of your mother and step-father. That has been one of my biggest mistakes. I'm pretty sure that my mother became involved with her now husband when he was married. The advice that they have given me has been horrible for me. I end up feeling awful each time I have talked to them about my situation. Right now, I'm not talking to them for that reason. I rely on the folks here for help. That has been the best thing for me.

Hang in there.

Dear neversuspected ~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it the things I'm saying? I just feel like I've been brutally ripped out of what I THOUGHT was reality, only to learn that everything I based my life on is NOT REAL. That my husband loves only me, that he is faithful, that he honors me, that he looks forward only to coming home to me and our beautiful children. I've been living as if all of this were true, and then I find out that MY marriage, MY relationship with a man I promised my life to is based on lies, lies, lies, lies lies and the worst kind of deciet a man can do to a woman.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every betrayed spouse on this board has been where you are at. And it isn't just men doing it to women. There are a multitude of betrayed men too. For many of us though, we've had the time to work through it. You've only just found out, and I know it has to feel like no one can possibly understand....but believe me, we do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like my marriage is a pile of rubble at my feet and there is no real ground to stand on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well. Reality and truth: Your marriage IS in a rubble. As for solid ground; you are going to have to look inside yourself for that. We can help you along the way, and going to Al-Anon will help, but the bottom line is - solid ground will come eventually, but not without alot of work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is fantasy and what is reality? I was living as if my version of life was true and it isn't. I was happy. I loved him. I gave him my trust and my life. I wasn't given a chance to know different! None of that is FAIR. None of it! He TOOK that away from me, they both did! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes they did. Yes it was horribly wrong. Yes you were denied a choice. But now you know the truth and now you do have choices. You can choose to spend your time screaming about what they did to you....or you can look forward and start taking responsiblity for your own choices in this situation.

It's not for nothing that just after my D-Day, my sponsor had me write on my bedroom mirror:

Pain is a given, Misery is an option.

This is a horribly painful situation. You can wallow in pain and anger, making yourself miserable over things that you have no control over (like your husband's lies) or you can choose to do something else. Like go to meetings and take a hard look at yourself. A victim chooses to stay stuck in a miserable cycle of "poor me, look what everyone did to me", instead of moving forward, using the painful circumstances to grow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I'm looking out ahead of me and all I know is that I don't know what is real or not. So why do I need to call THEIR relationship a fantasy when my God, my life has been a lie. My marriage has been an illusion and he knew it!!! He KNEW it! He KNEW I believed in him and our marriage, he KNEW I trusted him, and he KNEW all of that was one big fat ugly lie!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and your life has NOT been a lie. From your husband's own mouth, you were a good wife. Your integrity, and your value has not been lessened by any of this. These "lies" were about him and his failures, not about you. The truth you can absolutely stand on is that you held to your vows, you were a good wife and mother, that you are valuable, and you are lovable. These things were true before you found out about the affair, and they are still true now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, what hurts almost more than that, if it's possible, is that BOTH OF THEM KNEW about her husband and me, but I didn't know about them. Who has the truth here? Me, who has been sitting in the dark loving a man who has come home every night and lied to me, or them, who knew about the marriages? I can't escape any of these thoughts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to suggest that you run down to Barnes and Noble and pick up a copy of After The Affair by Janis Abhrams Spring. On the Ladies board there is also a small list of other books you might find interesting, but I think After the Affair is a good one for understanding what you are going through right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I keep reading these explanations of how the feelings in the affair are imaginary and not real. Or maybe you are all saying that the feelings are real but the relationship is imaginary.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I for one did not say that to you. If you go back and read my first post to you, I told you that it was very real.

The feelings are real, the relationship is real. BUT don't confuse real with other things. Just because it's real doesn't mean it's based on reality. Just because it's real doesn't mean that it's good, or solid, or can even stand the test of time. Remember what I said above about examining your "truths" about love and then testing them for accuracy? This is why you are getting into trouble here. Affairs are real relationships, and involve real feelings, but affairs are also based on lies, deceit, and enourmous amounts of fantasy. They are most certainly not based on reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What on earth is IMAGINARY about spending all day with a woman at work who is your right hand man in business, with whom you feel more comfortable talking about things besides your family than your wife, and who you SLEEP WITH and share your body??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing is imaginary about it. It really happened. And from your post about your conversation with your husband, it sounds like it will continue to happen.

But this is where FOG comes in. Your husband had to do quite a few mental gymnastics to justify betraying in his own mind what he was doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it turns out that one day he says he never felt the way he says he feels now, that will be then. But what am I to believe?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmmm...you are already in enough trouble and enough pain....why are you projecting in to the future where he might lie? You aren't there yet! Let's just deal with the reality of today, instead of your fear of tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I was to follow that mode of thinking, then anyone could believe ANY cheater when they say they weren't really in love with their wife.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And? So what if every other person but you believes every cheater? Go back and examine your truths about love and marriage. You are giving the "feeling of love" an enourmous amount of power. Does it really matter if a cheater is or isn't in love with their spouse? Betrayal is still betrayal. If your husband said to you that he didn't love you and that's why he cheated....would that make it any less or any worse?

You see, love is not just about feelings. Love is about committment, integrity, responsibility and a decision to act in a way that shows care towards your partner - and NONE of the things above require a feeling of love in order to happen.

Your husband wasn't free to give those things to another woman. That's part of the fantasy we talk about here. All of those things had to be an illusion - because neither of them were free or were capable of offering that to the other. Their relationship was an illusion; a mockery of the depth of meaning and responsiblity of marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read that you call it rewriting history. If people can rewrite history of a marriage, won't they rewrite history of an affair?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course they can. So what? His truths do not have to be your truths. He can think or say anything he darn well pleases. And then you get the choice to decide whether or not you want that in your life or not.

Let's just deal with TODAY, not possible, unforseeable tomorrows.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but I'm very logical. If his relationship is based on fantasy and imagination, does he turn that off when he comes home and lives in reality? Is this state of fantasy and imagination confined only to HER, or to the rest of his life? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, I think your logic has more than a few kinks in it. That's why I found Al-Anon to be so helpful - it got my own twisted logic out in the open, into the light of day, and with the help of others who could see more clearly than I, I straightened it out. You have to get it out of your head, and you have to get help from others before you really do think logically.

Now lets do some fog busting!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said that he worked with her on a project for about a year. My husband can be formidable when he’s stressed at work. He said she wasn’t afraid of him, she stood up to him and even made him laugh. It was all within the context of work. She was married, he was married, he said he never thought of an affair with her in the beginning. He said she was someone he learned to count on in his business, that’s all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had a penny for every affair that started this way....I'd not have to work! Reality: She's probably a very bright intelligent woman, skilled at her job and very personable. Illusion: All your husband ever got to experience was her good side, which was shining at work. He didn't get to know the grouchy PMS woman who couldn't clean a toilet to save her life or pick up after herself (I'm just making stuff up here, but all possible and probable). Those things don't come out at work!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said that relationship started to progress when she was promoted and became his right hand man. They had to consult each other more often and that the days were so busy, sometimes they couldn’t talk until after business hours. So they’d meet in his office and talk business and soon they just started talking about other things. He said they never said any of the old clichés about having bad marriages. They just talked and talked about … things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your husband obviously has a high need for conversation and admiration. As his employee, she was obviously filling both of these needs, and given a 8-10 hour work day, had more time with him than you did to do those things for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked him why he didn’t tell me this. Why he didn’t tell me about her. Why he didn’t invite her over and get her out in the open. I think this is where you would say the fog talk starts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said he wouldn’t have invited a male business associate over, why would he invite a female? He said he told himself it was a friendship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Justification and rationalization. FOG. My husband rarely invites his employees over to the house...but he takes them to lunch and invites me to join them...or I show up at the office and meet them, and I am on a first name basis with everyone he works for and with. I can stroll across the sales floor, and everyone there knows who I am. Your husband could have done the same.

Why didn't he? Because by the time he realized that the relationship had reached a point that you would object to it, he didn't want to stop it. He was getting needs filled, that either you couldn't, didn't, or didn't have time to, and the emotional high from that just felt way too good. So he told himself that she was just a friend and you didn't need to know. Selfishness abounds, and lies soon follow...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked him why he didn’t talk about the things he talked to her about with me. He couldn’t answer for awhile. Then he said something that hurt, really hurt, but my God, I can’t say it isn’t true.

He said – honey, you and I never talked about those things. You aren’t interested in politics and current events and sports, are you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Up to this point, I think you can take this as information for your plan A, if you so choose to attempt to recover your marriage. Conversation is a big need of your husband's. You need to pick up a newsaper, start watching the news, listen to talk radio, read magazines, etc and LEARN how to talk about the things he's interested in. By being interested in what he's interested in, you show interest IN HIM. This is a more than reasonable emotional need.

Now starts the FOG:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How could I try to make you into somebody you aren’t?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good try, but sorry, this doesn't work. So you never learned how to do anything new? He decided for you that you couldn't or wouldn't gladly learn to do this for him? How utterly insulting.

Translation: OW was doing a good job at filling my need, and you were good at filling my other needs, why make myself uncomfortable by telling you that I had needs you weren't filling?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and I also don't work together. I spend most of my day dealing with work and every event in the world that affects the business. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Translation: Having someone at work AND someone at home working on all my needs felt GOOD.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was I supposed to come home and say, hey honey, my coworker and I talk about all of these things, can you be that person for me too?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, he was supposed to do exactly that. Its called Radical Honesty. It means when you start feeling attracted to a coworker, you need to examine why, and then tell your spouse so you can work as a TEAM to take steps to protect your marriage, including changing how you fill your spouses needs.

It's called integrity and honesty and committment and responsiblity. It's called telling you how he feels so that you, and your marriage is protected from the devastation of an affair.

He didn't protect you or himself. That's his failure. He saw the redflags and chose to ignore them, instead babbling fog at himself to justify his selfish behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked if he was prepared to give up the double life. He said he didn’t know what to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Translation: I don't know how I am going to juggle you both now that you found out!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We didn’t make love, but I felt his feelings for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok hon, this is where the fantasy part kicks in. This is why the affair is fantasy. Your husband has enjoyed having BOTH of you meeting his needs. The OW was clearly not "all that" because if she was, your husband would have left you for her, instead of stringing you along as his backup when she failed to deliver. Your husband is in cover-his-a$$ mode because it is in his own self-interest NOT to lose you. I guarantee (we've seen it ad nauseum here on MB) to see if he can juggle you both. The OW can not fill all of his needs. As he has admitted, you were a good wife, and I don't exactly see anywhere in this post where he said he wanted to leave you. The lies are not finished, you CAN put both of your feet on that very solid reality.

How did I know when my husband was finished lying?

When he said, starting immediately, today, Here is are all my pin codes, passwords, phone bills, here is my no contact letter, and here is how I intend to make sure that you can verify the words out of my mouth at all time. Then he did those things. There was no waffling, no "I don't know what I am going to do", no "Lets see if maybe we might feel love again", nothing like that at all.

My husband made a decision to love me regardless of how he felt and then he did those things.

That's not what your husband said, and that's not what he's doing.

So what do you do now?

If you want to recover your marriage you have to do 2 things:

Assume everything out of his mouth is a lie. The affair ain't over yet.

Work on you. Go to Al-Anon. Do a plan A by continuing to be the good wife that you are, and learning to be an even better one. Yes it sucks and its not fair, he owes you. But if you choose to get your marriage back, this is what it takes. You are no longer a victim, this is about YOUR OWN CHOICES. Make your plan A short - demonstrate that you took to heart his words about your lack of interest in his world and his interests. But do not do this for very long. While you do this, set up your plan B. Read about Plan B letters on this site, ask us for help writing yours. Make your plans for the logistics about visitation and finances - consider asking a third party to act as go-between for communication about necessities.

Why do you Plan A before cutting him off? You want to leave an incredible impression of just exactly what he's losing. If you act like a hysterical crazed revenge addled psycho, he's going to be relived when you Plan B. So make sure that last memories he has of you, are the REALITY of what an incredible woman he is losing.

When he has to turn to Ms OW for all the needs that you are no longer filling, the fantasy will not hold up under the light of day. Trust me. She's not even half the woman you are. He has just been able to conveniently ignore her warts while you were around to take over when she failed.

Hows that for some reality?

((((hugs)))