Thanks again BrambleRose.

He said he wasn't going to contact her... immediately. I realize he wants to be with her, otherwise why would any of this be happening? He said he told his counselor that he would spend some time alone first. I think I'll go to his counselor and schedule one of my own. My H said he would pay for my counseling. What a great guy he is, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm numb right now. That's all.

I have a question for you. If OW sent him a Plan B letter and you say it may be a manipulation to get him to leave, would my Plan B letter have been any different? I tried to figure that out myself and for the first time I had to laugh out loud. Cam I hate her for manipulating him while I was planning the same thing?? Maybe she reads this site... if you're out there OW, touche. Touche.

I talked for a long time with my mother and stepfather. I stopped mentioning them here but they are very supportive of me. My stepfather told me the same thing as you Bramblerose - that there is no telling what he will want in 2 months, 3 months, a year, two years... He told me to keep focusing on me and make my life the best I can even if it feels impossible right now. (he's an Alanon veteran too).

Time to go. Thanks for your thoughts.

Never Suspected:

Our issues and situation are a lot alike. My WS is "rich and successful". He calls me a "micro-manager". His OW is a wild woman. That's what I call her. He left me for her. Their relationship has been long-term with a focus on FUN, FANTASY and ESCAPE. Now in the real world they seem to be having a difficult time.

I'm not in a position to give you a lot of advice now. I just want to let you know that after a successful PLAN A during which I was more ATTENTIVE and RECREATIONAL and then PLAN B he, at least, went on the fence and began to cake-eat. He now seems to want to come home. After being with her full-time, he misses my management of his life and my domesticity(?)

It's your choice as to whether you want the marriage or not but the MB principles work. I followed them to a T. I figured out what needs I was not fulfilling and worked on those. Steve Harley told me that my WS would "fall in love with me again" if I started acting in a caring way towards him, treating him the same way that I did when he first fell in love with me. I had stopped doing that. He was right. He said as long as the love was there in the past, it can return.

I have questions about your WS' counselor. That does not seem to be a good approach for your WS to establish a relationship with the counselor and then plan to bring you into it. The counselor will naturally become an ally with your WS. Plus, your WS should be made responsible to do his own work. It is not the counselor's responsibility to be triangled into talking to you and you do not even know this person.

I don't think your situation is hopeless. It sounds just like mine and others did several months ago. It is the standard WS script. If you are up to this, you can do it.

If you have time, read some of my thread from December-January. Do a search by putting in my name or number. I got some wonderful advice from Worthatry (WAT) who is no longer here, Melody Lane and others during my PLAN A.

Hang in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neversuspected:
<strong>

I have a question for you. If OW sent him a Plan B letter and you say it may be a manipulation to get him to leave, would my Plan B letter have been any different? .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, only you know the answer to that. If you are using the Plan B letter to manipulate him, then the answer is yes. If you are using it as intended, which is to protect yourself from losing ALL of your love for him and learning to detach, then no.

But I agree with BR 100% about this; the OW is probably trying to manipulate your H with her letter. I suspect the implied threat is that he must leave his wife in order to resume the relationship, hence his request for a separation.

And unfortunately, WS usually only leave for one reason, and that is to carry on the affair unimpeded. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. Having all of the obstacles removed usually leads to the light of ugly reality being cast on the affair. The feelings are not so intoxicating without the drama of secrecy. Affairs often die fairly quickly when the light of day shines on them. That is why the VAST MAJORITY of affairs just fizzle out.

Just hang in there, NS, this situation is FAR from hopeless. And while it hurts, one of the most positive developments is that it finally came out into the light of day. At least you know what you are dealing with now. Take care.

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Neversuspected:-

The similarieties between our sitch as follows:

I am an adult child of an alcoholic. Both parents very active in AA and Al-Anon for years. Me I attented Alateen.
Married a recovering alcoholic whom I met through my Dad in AA.

The Affair:- Similarities
Before D-Day
WS consulted a psychologist alone to decide whether he must stay in the marriage or get out. I thought he was consulting a psychologist for depression.

He moved out because he wanted space to deal with his depression.

Insisted I meet with his psychologist to be able to understand him or he will pay for me to see another psycologist.

After D-day:-
WS moves back home again. Beggs me not to leave him, he will put 200% back into the marriage.

The love he has for me is the brotherly,sisterly thing.

OW writes a very understanding letter of sorry for causing such pain, does not wish it on her worse enemy. Now sets WS free to work on his marriage, she will relocate to another city.
Will always love and care for him. Also NC as she is allowing us to work on our marriage.

Everyday, we cry, we talk, we see psycologist.

After a month OW informs me he is only back for the sake of the kids, he does not love me, she cannot see him suffering like that. He denies everything, tells me not to listen to me she wants to destroy me.

Two weeks after this WS informs me he needs space moving into a flat want to deal with this on his own. He is also coming back home again. Will not contact OW. I must just trust and believe in him.

First week after mowing into the flat informs me he is leaving me for her. They will be courting.
To take things slowly to see if it works...

Also tells me he wants a dv. I can keep everything as he cares about me and the kids and promise he will not let us suffer financially. Our well being is first.

Two years after D-Day:- The consequences
I had to take him to court for child support.
He wanted me and the kids out of the house.
Sees his kids once a month.
Had to resort to Atty's to fight for me nail and tooth to just get enough to support me and the kids.

The lessons I have learned at Al-Anon and MB:
Boundaries and limits
Protect yourself and children
Believe nothing that the WS says.
Detach, detach, detach
After Plan A, a strict Plan B.
Plan B for me now is when there need to be communication with WS it is done in a loving and kind way.

As for the OW - Believe me when I tell you, she is a woman of no value. Believe me when I tell you she know exactly how to play the game. She know more about you then you know about yourself. She knows more about your husband than you know about him.

Our advantage:- She only knows the needs that you did not fullfil. So she is working her butt off to fullfil that needs.
She does not know our history.
Change, change change.

I also thought I was a logical person but at the end of the day my logic was irrelevant. On this board and through reading I have come to realize that we as BS's all experience the same emotions and at the end of the day life is about you and me and our happiness.

You will be in my prayers.

Thanks again for your replies.

I called the therapist today (H said it was OK, and also corrected me that our appt. is TONIGHT). I wanted to ask a few questions before deciding to go. He called me back between sessions. He said he is in the business of marriage counseling and likes to help couples save marriages rather than end them. He said that since my H was unwilling to end his affair, his, the therapist's attitude all along has been to discover the roots of the affair and to encourage my H to communicate openly and honestly with me. He said that he agreed to see me, only once, with H, as an effort to facilitate that communication, and that he has seen marriages revive once the spouses start that, even if the things they say are painful. I asked him if he believes our marriage is viable, and he said all marriages are until both spouses truly move on, and that doesn't mean leave for an OP, although he said that leaving for an OP can mean the end of a marriage as well.

I agreed to come in tonight. I took off work early and am going to look wonderful and am telling myself over and over that I am there to listen, listen, listen.

I'm sorry but I'm still laughing at the Plan B letter. I need to find something to laugh at, and mostly I need to laugh at myself. No, I had no intentions of going to Plan B to save my love for him. I don't really know what that means and maybe I'm too new at all of this to truly understand that. I was going to go to Plan B because everyone here and my parents said that the only way he'll realize he wants to be with me is when he thinks he lost me.

Isn't that what everyone here is saying? Once you stop meeting his needs he realizes he wants you and comes back? I guess I need to read the book again and find the part about saving love.

Thanks again.

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: neversuspected ]</small>

GinnyF-

As much as our we share so many similarites, and as much as all of this advice is helpful, I can't help but open my loud mouth when people say things like the OW is of no value, since I just discovered that my mother was an OW.

I think every human being is of value. I am not pretending that I feel good things towards H's OW, believe me my thoughts are anything but kind, but then I look at my mother and I realize that this OW to my husband might be someone I'd like if I knew her in any other way.

Maybe that's my Al-anon talking, too. I don't mean to offend anybody here, it's just that having a mother that told you she was an OW sheds a whole different light on things and I don't expect that people can share that light unless they've had a similar experience.

NS,
I am sorry for this turn of events, but as you may have noticed from so many posts on this and other forums, many of these A's die slow and horrible deaths. I am here to tell you, my H's was one and I am still not even 100% sure of no contact.

Follow your alanon sponsor's suggestions. Take care of yourself. Follow the advice of your parents. Your H has to make the moves now. Do you notice how frighteningly familiar all that he says and does is? Look at so many posts here and you will discover that is a fact. So, the game isn't over yet.

BUT the one piece of advice I will give based on my own experience is to realize the boundaries between the two of you. YOU are NOT responsible for his A. If he was so unhappy with your rigidness it was his responsibilty as a full partner to discuss this with you and work with you to come up with solutions that work for you both. My H tried this tack as well. I took that list and worked my [censored] off to make the changes, meet the needs and what did I get? Continued contact with the OW, made excusable in his mind because they didn't see each other (well they are a few thousand miles away from each other so big deal) and HE never called her! Huh?

The only, and I mean only, way I have come to peace within myself is to let him go. Detach from specific outcome of our M. Accept what is NOW. TRUST that I will be OK and then take great care of myself so that I will be OK. Pray, meditate, read, surround myself with loving friends and family and let go with loving detachment.

Praying for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but I'm still laughing at the Plan B letter. I need to find something to laugh at, and mostly I need to laugh at myself. No, I had no intentions of going to Plan B to save my love for him. I don't really know what that means and maybe I'm too new at all of this to truly understand that. I was going to go to Plan B because everyone here and my parents said that the only way he'll realize he wants to be with me is when he thinks he lost me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi ns ~

I should have corrected your terms earlier. The OW did NOT write a plan B letter. She wrote a no-contact letter - as MelodyLane said - that clearly told your husband that he had to leave you in order to continue to be with her.

She's left her husband, and now she expects your husband to do the same.

Plan B is what a BS does - telling the WS that they are willing to work with the WS to create a new wonderful relationship when the WS decides to end the affair, but that in the meantime, the BS must remain completely seperated because of the extreme pain caused by the WS's actions.

Part of the reason for Plan B is to make sure that the WS suffers clear, immediate reality and consequences for the affair. This happens when the WS is suddenly unable to come and go as they please in the marital residence, get their needs met by 2 people, and forces them to answer some pretty uncomfortable questions from others.

But its not a manipulation....at least its not meant to be...

I want you to think about something. What if his affair continues on for another year or even 2? Now imagine being in contact with your husband on a regular basis. Imagine his constant bold-faced lies, your constant discovery of new affair evidence.

How much love will you have after that much pain and agony - constant betrayal and lies shoved in your face?

Plan B has lots of purposes, one of the most important is that it protects YOU from having to endure some of the most horrible treatment that any spouse can do to another.

Never,
Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and wondering how your appt. went tonight.

I'm sorry that I hurt you with my words about your parents and their advice. I had misunderstood what you said they'd conveyed to you. I'm glad they're a support to you through all of this.

Take care, and let us know how it's going...
Hopeful_Person

NS

I understand how you feel about your mum and her husband. They are giving you wonderful advice.
Esp your stepdad with his Al-Anon background.

I am also being supported and given advice by a very good friend of mine and her H. I have also just recently discovered she was the OW. I had to deal with it. We are learning from each other.

Them seeing my pain has also opened up raw wounds which they buried and did not deal with. After being married now for 15yrs both of them are now in therapy. Why, the guilt and denial of emotions.

Both of them admitted to me that if they knew then what life holds, they would of worked harder at saving their marriages.

Each sitch is different. I have learned that I cannot judge but I can keep an open mind.

As for the NC letter that you have received from OW, if you go to GLORYB BB (board for OW) you will read that this is their way of dealing with their sitch.

Good morning.

Thank you again and again for these thoughtful posts. I can't say enough how much I appreciate them.

I don't mean to sound off about my mother, GinnyF. I suppose I am just so raw about everything... thanks for your explanation.

The appt. with the therapist was the best thing that has happened for me so far. He was great. We spent two hours in his office and the one thing I discovered is that I got my humor back! I am still hurting, as you all know, and confused and unsure, but I am finally laughing again. And you know what? I'm a pretty funny woman! It's something my H always appreciated about me, too.

Without going into all the details, the bottom line is that his affair is serious for him. I wanted straight talk. The truth. He believes he loves her. He can't imagine life without her. It was almost surreal to talk about this with MY HUSBAND.. every once in awhile I'd stop and ask where the hidden cameras were... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but I listened. Listening is all I have right now.

The therapist also knows all about Plan A and Plan B... he has his own way of dealing with this, but in the end the one thing I know is that I can't control my husband right now.

The therapist said that there's as much chance he'll leave for good as there is he'll come back. He doesn't believe the 4% statistics, he said they do not match his experience in his office.

But after my husband talked, I was also able to talk. I told him I felt like he never gave US a chance.. that we never tried to work through this as a couple, and it felt horrendously unfair. I was able to express all of my feelings about this, and we cried, but in the end he feels like he can't live without her.

He hasn't contacted her yet. I don't know when he will. My mother, stepfather, me and the kids are leaving tonight for a long weekend with them.

They give me so much strength. I can't explain it, but I look at them and still understand that couples can be happy growing old together. If it's not me and my husband, I still have a chance.

Thanks for all your support. I'm not sure how much I'll come back here. Al-Anon seems to work best for me. I need to stop wondering what he's doing and how I can affect him, and focus 100% on me and my children.

God Bless you all!

P.S.

I think I sound much better than I feel! I'm just trying as hard as I can to keep a positive attitude.

One last thing. We talked about my "rigidity". I learned a lot listening to my husband. I don't mean to sound like I think I'm perfect. But again, I pointed out that I don't remember him telling me outright about his problems with my need to schedule. The therapist helped us both understand how we communicate differently.

This is strange, but I know my husband cares deeply for me. I know it. I don't know if he'll want us to stay married, but at least for now, that helps me go on.

NS-

I admire you. If you want to talk to OPs honestly about what they feel and why they get involved with married men, go to the gloryb.com website. There are quite a few BWs who are regulars there.

Good luck, NS. You are one strong woman.

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

But, if you want to save your marriage ... which, by the way has little or nothing to do with how any OW thinks .... stay on MB.

If an OW knew how to be a happily married woman, she would not be an OW. same for the men.

Going over to that other site may discourage you from trying to rebuild your M ... if that is your goal. There are fewer posters there who sanctify marriage vows as much as they sanctify their own feelings.

Feelings before principles or principles before feelings? When you look at those posts, ask yourself what position the poster takes.

The OW/OM honesty about their feelings is valid and very real, but they have little awareness about marriage re-building, and most do not respect marriage as a special bond.

They tell jokes like: "What did the MM say to his wife on D-day?" ..... Answer: "Nothing!" .... and that joke is followed by high-fives and "Yeah, right on!" ..... if you think that is "funny", you'll fit right in! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

NS:- I went through exactly the same conversation with my WS in the therapist rooms.
The following day he moved out into his flat.

The same day he moved out all my logical thinking, humour, understanding,everthing flew out of the window. My roller-coaster of emotions started. The mask was removed.

Al-Anon was my only means of survival for 6mnths, until by the Grace of God I discovered MB on Xmas eve 2001. I spend Xmas eve and Xmas day on MB.

Do not leave now, your journey is only starting now.

Will keep you in my prayers.

Just quickly--please do NOT go to gloryb.com right now. It can be very discouraging, even the trying to end it forums. Many, many OW's come across extremely disrespectful of M vows, even their own! Also, in changes your focus from yourself and what you are going to do and it can be easy to obsess about the OW and what she will do, what makes her so attractive to your H etc. What makes her so attractive is how she makes him feel and he needs to get that his feelings are HIS responsibilty.

Take it from someone who has been there and then some! Hang in!