I want to tell OM I wont't tolerate anymore contact with my WW.

She is having surgery for complete hystorectomy and will be recovering at her house for a month or so. She can't have conventional sex for about 1 1/2 mos. During part of this period she will be taken care of by my 15 year old daughter. OM is alcoholic and separated from his W for 19 mos. now. Neither my WS or me has filed for anything yet. My D doesn't like OM.

Is this my opportunity to approach my WW??? I haven't been able to because she's always with OM, mesmerized by the sex.

SH told me to break Plan B, because of the event of the surgery. I want make the best of this contact and not let OM do what I should be doing.

I want to tell OM in no uncertain terms that I won't tolerate him in WW's house as long as my D is there. I know my WW will want him there. If she wants to live at his apt that's her business but when my daughter is there, I think I have a say. Besides, I am tired of watching this affair bloom to into something permanant.

My wife left convinced I didn't care for her and said she loved me but wasn't in love with me. She thought any effort I made to change things was temporary just to keep her from leaving.

I am full of both of them thinking their adultery is OK with me. WW probably thinks I am weak and too wimpy to do anything about it. I think too that's how I have come across. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I wont't tolerate anymore contact
What does this mean?

My wife left convinced I didn't care for her
That's why you told her you loved her in your Plan B letter.

She thought any effort I made to change things was temporary just to keep her from leaving.
That's why you also told her you are learning MB prinicples.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>I wont't tolerate anymore contact
What does this mean?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Means, I want to tell him, I'm going to kick is A$$ if he comes around. Crime of passion.

But crime of passion STILL = jail, as well as a lot of sypmathy for him from ws.

Legally, do what you need to, to keep him away from our daughter.

Monty, I recently confronted OM about ongoing phone calls between him and W. He told me he would never call her again. So I would say it was a huge success even though W still very pissed off. If nothing else it was very empowering. Do it in a respectful manner. Not that they deserve your respect but YOU deserve. In other words don't sink to their level.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>But crime of passion STILL = jail, as well as a lot of sypmathy for him from ws.

Legally, do what you need to, to keep him away from our daughter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DAMN! You're right. I guess a fleeting fit of anger at being near helpless.

As far as keeping OM away from D, don't have a clue legally what I can do if he isn't spending the night or having sex with my WW with D in the house. OMW and other members of his family whom are my personal friends say he's always been and alcoholic and an abusive too when drunk. My WW says he drinks but isn't and alcoholic. I know he can control it some, because he's had the same job for a while and his '94 truck didn't have any dents on it.

Well you do have a tough call.

If your in Plan B shouldn't you stay there until your WW meets your Plan B letter. Remember No- Contact.

To play devils advocate. She's having surgery and an ongoing affair. So what if she's having surgery, she will have any number of issues in life with you not in her life.

If she needs you and you want to be there with her then maybe your WW needs to send OM a letter and tell him that she's having surgery and that she's asked your daughter and you to help her through this. That he (OM) should give her the time and space to recover etc. ie - NC

This is a perfect time for your wife to make a choice Him or You.

If not your just going to be a fill in nurse when OM isn't around.

I suspect that your WW asked for your help because she knows OM won't be there emotionaly like you will.

As I said tough call maybe others could help out.

Steve Harley told Monty that he SHOULD be there, assuming his wife doesn't tell him NOT to be there. (Not something he should ask about either.) Just go as if there is nothing else you WOULD do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by goodguy007:
<strong>Well you do have a tough call.

If your in Plan B shouldn't you stay there until your WW meets your Plan B letter. Remember No- Contact..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. It is a tough call. Two weeks ago I did a session with Steve Harley and asked him this question. He said I should break Plan B, for this "event". It was his feeling that if I didn't show concern for WW that this would give OM the opportunity to make a lot of Love Deposits by taking care of her. He would too. He clings to her. He had been separated for 15 months and didn't have a date according to my WW and OMW. To him this isn't just an affair. My WW is emotionally weak right now. If she doesn't get something started with the new OM she will keep the present one. She can't stand to be alone right now. All of this should come to a crash but in the mean time I am watching her fall apart.

Steve H. said to do anything and everything I could to show my love and concern during this period.

Well Steve has much more experiance than likely anyone on this board. He's the expert as we all are trying to follow his plans.

I do not want to pull you away from his work.

Maybe you should ask him how you can be there for your wife at the same time balance your concerns.

JMHO

have read your update on ex(?)w surgury, I too think your actions then were well chosen, honest without being manipulative. I am a bit confused though.

The rhetoric in your posts seems based on an "affair". But you said there was no affair, that your wife chose to end the marriage...and did so. Then she (as is ones right) has entered other relationships (albeit perhaps not choosing wisely). You are now trying to get her back with the mindset she is a ws, having an affair, and needful of feeling remorse, guilt, and a debt to you. Frankly I have to think that probably infuriates her, makes her feel like your property, and is one of the reasons (maybe) she felt a need to end the marriage. It would seem more appropriate (and ultimately more likely to succeed) to pursue her as a suitor, not as an aggrieved exH. I realize the legalities have not taken place, but that is nothing more than settling the marital contract (economic issues), the emotional divorce sets one free to pursue whatever future they think they need. You are divorce (IMO) the moment someone tells you they no longer want to be married to you and live as man and wife....seperation is simply a label for the period of time between the real divorce and the legal settling of economic issues. Now if your wife pledged fidelity during seperation, and/or says she does not want a divorce, then one has confusion IMO, and it is not really seperation, so much as it is breathing space while counselling, and other marital restoration agendas are in effect.... If that is the case, then I would agree affair related strategies make more sense (until one of you tells the other categorically, you are done)...but if you are divorced (in her mind), I have to wonder how much use plan B is as a dating/pursuit strategy.

This might seem like splitting hairs, and maybe it is, I don't know your wife....but I can tell you with certainty, there are many individuals who would take great offense at a spouse accusing them of an affair, when they have told you we are done, and they carried that out by leaveing. Many bs lament why didn't their spouse tell them first they were done with the marriage, before becoming involved with another, yours did just that, you knew she was gone, she told you so, and left. Now you try to shame and coerce her because she is lives her life as we are all empowered to do, it is no wonder she responds poorly to you, and I doubt your plan B will do anything at all to further your goals....BUT if you need to do so for your own well-being, that is your choice...what I don't quite understand is why don't you pursue her? Instead of applying manipulative techniques? If she chooses you again, you essentially remarry, and it is her choice....just like divorceing (leaveing) you was her choice.

Are you able to ask her out on a date, have fun, enjoy each other without acting like the aggrieved H or something (very unattractive by the way)....if you are the best choice for her, she will choose you, if not, then she will choose someone else...but without your pursuit it is unclear why she would come back...what would be her reason? And even if by some manipulative efforts on your part (and her choosing new relationships badly), she comes home by default rather than cause you successfully wooed her, why would that be a desireable outcome?

I have to say something about seperation and divorce. When people seperate as the end of a marriage, and one spouse runs around saying the other spouse has to do this or that (or not do this or that), because we they are still my H/W, it makes my blood run cold. You might as well say this person is my dog, I still own them cause I have title to them, and they will act as I say they should.....that is exactly what you are doing when accusing your w of an affair, telling her she is your property....not exactly an attractive quality on your part....and a sure-fire way of pushing someone away.

Let me say I think your exW(to be) decision to get involved with someone else fairly quickly was a bad decision, and suggests she is indeed a confused individual with issues, that maybe you and she can work out...but that doesn't change the fact that she, like all of us (including you), has the final authority over her life, and can leave you if she so chooses, ending the marriage, and enter new relationships immediately if she also chooses. You can pursue her or not as you choose, but you cannot accuse her of having an affair cause you hold title to her. Marriage (and divorce) are choices, they start or end (psychologically/emotionally) the moment the parties involved say they do. The nuts and bolts of our legal system muddy up the waters cause unraveling the economic issues takes some time, so forces couples to continue interaction at some levels, and during this time reconcilliations do often occur, but people choose that, and they may not choose it, either way they are free agents emotionally/psychologically ie divorced).

In some jurisdictions the legal system actually recognizes this duality....ganting a sort of emotional divorce immediately (acknowledgeing the marital union has dissolved), and seperateing out resolution of the economic (and other) issues which could drag on for some time. Since people more often than not, view themselves (and act accordingly) as divorced (living seperately, independently, and without intimacy etc with stbx), it makes sense to have a legal condition reflective of the historical act of divorce.....that being simply stating your intent, and ceaseing living together as man and wife. I guess one would simply file a paper (at will) at the local courthouse terminateing the marriage license, with maybe the only supporting condition a physical seperation (moving out).... that clarifies for all parties people are "divorced" but dating such people would carry the greater risk they may reconcille, and/or are in many ways not safe to court, so proceed at your own risk.

Anyways I digress, this is essentially our cultural reality anyways, few people would argue someone who is done, seperated, and on their own has no right to seek other relationships, even though most of us would advise waiting for sound emotional/psychological reason, during which time usually the legal divorce catches up anyways. I don't know what your timeframes have been, short I suspect, hence the angst and the desire to call your w new relationship an affair...but I think that is a mistake, and makes you seem unsafe to her (because of the attitudes it implies about you), and makes any supposed changes you demonstrate suspect and manipulative. IMO it is better to acknowledge (to her) your respect and acceptance of her decision, let her go....and then tell her but you intend to compete for her as a new suitor...and then do so.

In this sense "confronting" men your wife is interacting with is completely inappropriate, would you do so dating other women? As for your daughter, that is always the toughest, our exspouses relationships impact our kids, and cause us anxiety....I don't have any answers except to pay close attention and try to negotiate conditons in your D best interest, aggressive actions, including using the legal system as a weapon rarely have good outcomes. Fortuneatly your D is essentially a young adult, and you can work with her to keep her safe, and she has a lot to say about what she wants to do (and the courts will listen to her). Pretty much IMO you encourage her (honestly on your part, not your own agenda/issues) to work out her feelings and what she wants, then support her in carrying it out.... if she wants to avoid her mom in settings where the om is present, than support that action. If she is ok with it, let her decide, but have procedures in place to quickly remove her if she feels the need.

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>have read your update on ex(?)w surgury, I too think your actions then were well chosen, honest without being manipulative. I am a bit confused though.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sufdb:
Interesting post. Philosophically I agree with everything you wrote. I think there are a few circumstances that cause me to view this as adultery even though it is not your classic affair that begins while people are living together in marriage. Your opinion may differ from mine, so I would be interested in hearing your take on it after I post.

My W and I have had communications problems in our marriage for some time. I am the talker, I want to work it out. She form opinions and sticks to them regardless of facts. I have wanted marriage counseling for years. She has refused for some reason, but her answer was "we are fine. I don't want someone else to tell us how to run our marriage". Well things weren't fine and she began to draw away and treat me disrepectfully. Even my D ask me why do I put up with that much verbal abuse. I only know I didn't want my 19 year marriage to end without giving counseling a chance.

In Nov. 2002 she told me she wasn't happy. This came after she lost a lot of weight, changed hair style, color, started dressing a different way and began working late at night. She want to see how things went throught the holidays. This hurt but I agreed. She stayed out more and more. We were no longer sleeping in the same room and I only saw her briefly on week ends.

In late Feb '03 she moved out to her mother's house to think things over. She said that she didn't know what she wanted and just wanted to be out of the house to think. We were dating about once a week. The dates were pleasant but no intimacy. I asked what her goal was and she said to sort things out and then fall madly in love again. I believed her, but didn't push her to come back home. From time to time I told her I missed her and the separation was hard, but I understood.

Her mother became very ill, went to the hosital and died 5 weeks later. We had no time with each other to reconcile during this period. At the wake, W met an BF who was also separated from his W for 18 mos. OM is an alcoholic and I know much of his family but not him. This was the reason he and his W could not reconcile after repeated attempts to do so. W and he started dating (spending the night together) 3 weeks after mother's death. W was dating me. I knew about OM but she kept telling me, D and anyone else there was no intimacy, he was just a friend who was having a rough time. I didn't like it but only said if they were together too much, he would get attached because he had no one else in his life. Both D and W claimed I was jealous for no reason, although I never argued or tried to stop anything. I did ask her calmly to end the relationship with OM. Her reply is there is not relationship.

All the while my W kept saying she didn't want a divorce but didn't know what she wanted and the last thing she wanted was to get romantically involved with another man. I belived her until I found out she spent every night with him every other week when I had my daughter. She insisted to me, friends, D, our families that he was just a friend but has gone thought fantastic lengths to cover her nocternal activities.

If what she is doing is OK, why does she have to lie to everyone that she and OM date, let alone are intimate and sneak back and forth at all ours of the night and morning. I had a session with Steven Harley and he says this is very definately an affair and is adulterous. I have explained the circumstances of this relationship an number of times and everyone has agreed this is adultery and wrong.

If my wife had had said ever "I don't love you anymore and I want a divorce" I would have been hurt but will sign the papers and let her go her own way, but she has not done that, even to this day. She could file for in instant divorce now because we have lived separate and apart for over 6 months but still doesn't do it. I will not file. I'm am Catholic and believe in marriage for life. But I won't stop the divorce or interfere with her life if she tells me thats what she wants.

I myself have not dated, even though I do get very lonely. I have to set an example for my D and I still believe in the sanctity of marriage. My W choice do not dictate my own values. We are still married in the eyes of the State of Louisiana, the Catholic Church and in the eyes of God as we have been taught. If my wife ever wants to dissolve this marriage, she is free to do so at any time. I have told her that I won't disolve this marriage but I would cooperated with her if she wants to.

All I ask is enough respect to be told the truth and not dangled on a string until she establishes her new life. My D and I have feelings and lives too.

And finally, YES this has angered my W. She has been caught in many lies and has been deceitful just like any WS in an extra marrital affair. If she wants to legalize her actions and have me give up on her, she has only to say "I want a divorce" and file for it.

monty you are in a hard place no doubt. Your additional information makes me lean toward the affair camp (if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck....well it's not a swan). My gut feeling is your wife was inapprpriately involved before telling you she wanted to seprate, additionally her telling you she does not want a divorce means she is being unfaithful now IMO. Personally I would reveal her nocturnal activities, explain to everyone your position (that your wife is committing adultery), and I would apply for an annulment a right you have as a Catholic. That would be a reality check your wife cannot ignore, and she would either clarify her feelings by divorcing, or agreeing to a proper reconcilliation effort....as it is now she is your garden variety cake eater.

One psychological point...and this is only my opinion, but I do think after an appropriate plan a, and the followp plan b, if one continues on they have sent a statement I am a doormat, that is NOT attractive in a primal sense. You are a man, this is unacceptable treatment for a wife, you need to draw a line in the sand.....not angrily, not accuassingly, not whiney...just matter of factly, and stick to your guns....IMO she is manipulateing the heck out of you.

Sufdb: If I were only going to reply with one word to your last post it would be: AMEN!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>

One psychological point...and this is only my opinion, but I do think after an appropriate plan a, and the followp plan b, if one continues on they have sent a statement I am a doormat, that is NOT attractive in a primal sense. You are a man, this is unacceptable treatment for a wife, you need to draw a line in the sand.....not angrily, not accuassingly, not whiney...just matter of factly, and stick to your guns....IMO she is manipulateing the heck out of you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have done some of what you suggested which consequently are also Steven Harley's suggestions. I have exposed the affair to everyone; her family, mine, my D, mutual friends and OMW. OMW has told his family. Oddly enough, no one has let them know that her affair is known, thus she continues to sneak back and forth at night, believing that her secret is still safe. Many have advised me not to confront her that I reveale the affair, because I was well into Plan B when I revealed it.

I discovered MB too late to do a good Plan A, but what I did do was close, except for trying to negotiate the end of the affair. I simply asked her to stop it and participate in counseling but she denied the affair in a rage, even though I told her how I knew.

I did a really dark Plan B until the surgery and then broke it for the surgery and now back in Plan B; all at S. Harley's advice.

I never thought of filing for an annulment before the divorce. That one is good. I will give it a few weeks as I do not want to cause too much stress while WW is trying to heal from a complete hysterectomy. She only came home from the hospital today. There won't be any kind nocturnal activities for 3 weeks, while my D stays with WW to take care of her. Normal sex will take longer still.

Thanks for your valued opinion and any others that you may care to post.

Pardon me for jumping into the middle...

Subdf,

Could you clarify your position a bit.

Do you believe that a separated person is free to act as if single? So, if your spouse says one night "I want out", then its not an affair if they move in with somebody the next day?

-AD

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

Monty,

I don't believe you can file for an annulment before a divorce.

In fact I was told that I had to finalize my divorce first before approaching the Catholic tribunal.

There's not much to gain in confronting the OM, and in fact, it will push your wife closer to him.

You might want to consider filing for legal separation and making sure that there are legal protections in place for your daughter. Many people have succesfully gotten court orders that prevent their children from overnights with the OP present.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>
I don't believe you can file for an annulment before a divorce.

In fact I was told that I had to finalize my divorce first before approaching the Catholic tribunal.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the info. I have a couple in my volleyball group who are on some sort of annulment board. I will ask them if I have grounds to file.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>There's not much to gain in confronting the OM, and in fact, it will push your wife closer to him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was said in the last fit of indignation I felt because of the helplessness of it all. Yesterday I was prepared to see OM at the hospital and ignore him. After thinking about it, he isn't worth my anger. In my opinion his actions show he is weak, amoral and deceitful. He is to be pitied more than hated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You might want to consider filing for legal separation and making sure that there are legal protections in place for your daughter. Many people have succesfully gotten court orders that prevent their children from overnights with the OP present.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't know this. Thanks. The early bird get the worm. I suppose I should file first.

IMO you should make it very clear to your wife in writing that you are aware that she is committing adultery. I am not a Catholic but was under the impression that a marriage could be dissolved when adultery was committed. If this is the case (?) would you not be in a better position to show that you are not going to tolerate her adulterous behaviour any longer and that if she wants to save the marriage she better change her behaviour.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tomaz:
<strong>IMO you should make it very clear to your wife in writing that you are aware that she is committing adultery. I am not a Catholic but was under the impression that a marriage could be dissolved when adultery was committed. If this is the case (?) would you not be in a better position to show that you are not going to tolerate her adulterous behaviour any longer and that if she wants to save the marriage she better change her behaviour.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. If I would have hired a PI and got him to video tape WW entering and leaving OM apt and noting the time, that would have been enough to sue for and win an adultery case. I would have been granted an immediate divorce if I wanted one, had a good chance to win full custody of my D and kept my house until my D was finished college. Then the estate would have to be divided. But since my WW wants to be with the OM, she has already told my D that if she didn't want to be around OM she would miss her. She is also willing to let me stay in the house as long as I keep my D.

I told my WW that I know she was commiting adultery, but she denied it saying it happened after the separation (no one has filed for anything yet). She knows better, but I didn't argue. Sometimes I think I would be better off just letting her go.

Tomaz,
Sometimes I don't know what's the use. I went to bring my D to my WW house to take care of her post surgery. I sat and talked to my WW. Although she was pleasant, I saw no affection in her at all. There were no thank you's for the flowers, and other gifts that I put in her room. There were cards at the house but none of the 3 that I gave her. There just doesn't seem to be anything in her for me anymore. It was like our marriage never happened. I smiled and chatted then left before I had stayed 15 min. I am a little down. It didn't even matter to her that I was the ONLY one there though out her surgery.

I don't know how I can keep up hope with her showing nothing at all, not even hatred..... NOTHING!