Termmie, Ok damn it...you've pretty much smeared the black and white mindset I've nurtured like a deformed embryo my entire life. So, I want dialogue here...proving that the world is not flat like I've held the banner proclaiming for years!

For the first time the other day (4:30 EST Saturday) it hit me like a ton of stereotypes on steroids that maybe I could be wrong? Sheesh.

Let's talk...I'll listen. Because if any one can be where the Terminator is, my babble would sound like a leaky faucet anyway. Who can meet her here??? sagacious ones ??? ]Originally posted by terminator:
[QB]Marriage story:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=00337 4;p=2#000016

therapy-resistant WS's are like bald teenagers; the stubbornness of them...not talking about their feelings. I related to that. X-MM was like that; my H is the same way--he won't see where he needs to work, won't look at himself objectively, separate from others. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Kitty,

This is the crux for me. When I posted about wanting to be able to tell my kids something succinct that would strike to the heart of 'busting' infidelity--that's cheating or being cheated on--an experience I NEVER want them to have...this is it.

The source of the therapy-resistance...the double life...the getting needs met in two places...what is it that produces such a person? how do we spot such a person and not marry them (until they get themselves integrated)?

THIS is a good thread.

I believe people (and there are women like this too, I was one) marry sometimes under false pretenses. Not knowing what their needs are. Viewing the marriage as "something else" or something they are doing for some other unknown reason (other than getting their needs met). Because "he's a nice man", "it's the thing to do", "my biological clock is ticking", and on and on.

They present to the partner the self that that partner seems to need. And see things in the partner that meet a need of theirs. Unconsciously, though. This is the tricky part. I believe it's all to do with childhood wrongs and the marrying under false pretenses is really an unfinished self entering into a relationship they have no business participating in. It could happen that they find themselves and connect with the spouse in a meaningful way later...but...

To bring this to ground a little bit, I'll describe myself when I married. I thought he was strong and safe and motivated to/capable of taking care of me. I didn't have 2 words to say for myself as a person--it was, whatever I could do to make him happy in return for above...anything but an alcoholic would make a fine husband.

There is a lot here...somebody better pare it to one or 2 small points cause I could write pages.

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

In Al-anon, we discuss being a "shape shifter" in our relationships .... twisting our authentic selves into "whatever you need me to be" ....

It's very common. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Yes--so think of the mess when 2 people are doing it!!

My husband has viewed my arrival at an authentic self as his having "outlived my usefulness to you". He was bitter about it.

So what do you say to something like that? I'm sure to him and others it looks like a convenient, psychobabble excuse.

Are you getting therapy for your hurt places?

Pep

No, I am not in therapy now, but I have been.

The counselor I saw at the start of the emr was very very into inner child stuff. So most of that work was around that...I have seen a couple of different people at various junctures.

The inner-child focused therapist helped me a lot. She helped me answer the "why me" question.

When I hurt, I pray. That always works.

"When I hurt, I pray. That always works."

Me too. Handy little tool, isn't it?

What do you do for a living ? (if you don't mind sharing)

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS .... have you ever studied "T.A." .... Transactional Analysis?

It's pretty cool .... there are books you can teach yourself the basics and workbooks to practice. You can search Amazon for books dealing with transactional analysis and get an idea if you think it might be useful for you.

Or, do a google search.

I've used T.A. off and on, when I find myself whining ... I change my TA position right away now, where I used to defend my whining vigorously! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

At the risk of getting flamed off the board here, I want to add something from the POV of the OW.

Here goes. I'm putting on my asbestos suit.

Sometimes a person who gets into an affair is busting their own facade. It's the facade they have lived with like the one Terminator describes. You know, doing the right thing, acting correctly, and being the person they think they are supposed to be. They live like that for years, always feeling somewhere inside like something is wrong, or afraid to be discovered for the fraud they believe they are, or generally uneasy, wondering - is this the way life is supposed to be?

The affair partner is the one (asbestos suit firmly in place) who they let it all out to. There can be an incredible amount of self-discovery between affair partners.

It doesn't mean that the affair partners are supposed to live happily ever after, or even that the marriage is dead. But I think that's what terminator is saying. It sounds like she moved into her authentic self with MM, and she feels like she has nowhere to turn in her marriage as the person she likes being right now.

Tell me if I'm off, terminator. Don't want to put words in your mouth. Flame away, or discuss as you see fit.

Sungirl,

Yes--that's it. This is why, in the instant I met X-MM, I felt that he knew me.

And, like you, I am not stuck on some notion that this "means" that I have to be with him, or whatever. I just mean that there was such a strong natural affinity. And it really was as if he could see something in me that I couldn't. This is the reason I can say I will always love him. I fully know and accept that I may never see him again. But you know, in therapy, when the emr started, I wanted to deconstruct this affinity--why I loved him--and the therapist explained it in terms of inner child and how "we love those who are like us". I have not yet found a good reason to discard that explanation.

I could go on for pages. But what is big for me is just to KNOW this. Nothing needs to come of it. The knowledge may never be "useful" in the sense of acting on it in any direct way. It's like faith--once you have it, it just simplifies things like you wouldn't believe.

Also this dovetails into the marriage therapy I was in where the therapist talked about personality theory--Parent, Adult and Child--and his take was that I had too much self-discipline and my husband didn't have enough and that explained our conflicts. I don't think our Child states were very compatible. He talked about the Child in us being that state that makes you able to have "really good sex" which to me meant also emotional intimacy or a feeling of "knowing" another.

(Doesn't matter what it would mean to X-MM, H or any other man, notice.)

Before anyone asks, I am endlessly fascinated by Jung.

Sungirl....

But the better route (I think) is discovering your authentic person-hood without destroying the lives of others around you ... meanwhile, taking all your own integrity and tossing it out the window.

If you lie, you are a liar .... and that becomes your authentic self .... and who wants to be that?

There is a really great book Passionate Marriage .... and one of the main points the author (David Scnarch) makes is how immaturely developed people look for a reflected identity. How their/our identity becomes fused to their/our partner, and why this creates an opportunity for personal growth.

It's NOT about who you are when you are with this partner or with that partner ... it's about who you are. Period.

Whenever someone says something like ..."He made me feel so good about myself" I recognize faulty thinking. Because, in that paradigm, the relationship has to remain in that exact spot, or the person who feels good about themselves loses that feeling! The partner must remain frozen emotionally, stunting their own growth instincts .... in order not to hurt their partner. Gridlock!

Sungirl: "It sounds like she moved into her authentic self with MM." .... This is faulty thinking.

She moves into her authentic self with herself .... and with her God. The man she is with has nothing to do with her authenticity.

Do you see my point?

You really ought to try that book ... it is amazing.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep, Sungirl,

I see truth in both of your posts. And the discovery of authentic self because of or with X-MM -- well, HAD I BEEN THINKING AND PLANNING instead of REACTING, yes, I would have done it without destroying others' lives. Truly. I acknowledge that I was careless.

BUT:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">immaturely developed people look for a reflected identity</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">speaks volumes. That's a "BINGO!!!" statement about X-MM, and me, if ever there was one. I mean, that's another step for me.

Thanks, both of you, and thanks, Mr. Schnarch or whoever you are.

PS: Um, should I read that book, even if my marriage is on the rocks and I have resigned myself to celibacy?

Yes

I think it's priceless....

If you love to explore Jung .... girl, you're gonna get wet reading Schnarch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Uh, great ??

Wet or not, I'm sure it will be worthwhile. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"A man is more likely to let the relationship suffer to hold on to his sense of self, while a woman is more apt to let her identity suffer to help strengthen it."

~~~~ a Schnarch quote

Both male and female tendencies can be disasterous for the relationship.

You cannot be in an authentic relationship without your identity!

You cannot have someone else define your authentic self.

ahhhhhh the sweet paradox of life and love....

Schnarch looks at actual desire for your spouse .... rather than need.

YOU decide which is sexier! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>At the risk of getting flamed off the board here, I want to add something from the POV of the OW.

Here goes. I'm putting on my asbestos suit.

Sometimes a person who gets into an affair is busting their own facade. It's the facade they have lived with like the one Terminator describes. You know, doing the right thing, acting correctly, and being the person they think they are supposed to be. They live like that for years, always feeling somewhere inside like something is wrong, or afraid to be discovered for the fraud they believe they are, or generally uneasy, wondering - is this the way life is supposed to be?

The affair partner is the one (asbestos suit firmly in place) who they let it all out to. There can be an incredible amount of self-discovery between affair partners.

It doesn't mean that the affair partners are supposed to live happily ever after, or even that the marriage is dead. But I think that's what terminator is saying. It sounds like she moved into her authentic self with MM, and she feels like she has nowhere to turn in her marriage as the person she likes being right now.

Tell me if I'm off, terminator. Don't want to put words in your mouth. Flame away, or discuss as you see fit.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh Sun girl,
That sounds exactly like my H.
Got to be incredibly confusing when the WS is in the FOG.
My heart hurts for WSs who are doing this.
xo
Hypatia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"A man is more likely to let the relationship suffer to hold on to his sense of self, while a woman is more apt to let her identity suffer to help strengthen it."

~~~~ a Schnarch quote</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oooo interesting thought

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"...a woman is more apt to let her identity suffer to help strengthen it." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I lived that. A lot of times and places. Sungirl is right--there is no place in my marriage for the self I want to be, the me that I like.

There was no place in the emr for it anymore either. And in all cases I was letting my identity suffer to hang on to a relationship (even the emr).

I can apply this to X-MM too; I think his sexual self was out in the cold in his marriage. That sounds like cliche OW-speak, but the dialogue went like this: I said it seemed to me that he hadn't had a woman in his life who was comfortable with her/his sexuality and he said "the easiest thing would be to admit there's truth to that, but I really don't want to go there, okay?" ('Nuff said!!!) And when he talked about marriage it was as if it were a necessary, inevitable act of domestication not wholly of his doing. He once made reference to some lack of freedom, and I said, "Well, a person can be free in a marriage." and he said, "Yeah, right." I hated that henpecked, cynical side of him.

Ugh, I would rather have trashed circumstances and a free self than pretty circumstances that look so good to everyone else and a tortured self. But that's just me.

What Schnarch will help you realize (if you decide to read his books) is that those "problems" are necessary and normal in a long term marriage!

Those "problems" are not the end of the marriage, but are, instead, the beginniing of an opportunity .... if one is brave enough to venture further into the abyss of knowing one's potential.

We have ourselves to blame when we do not like what is happening in our adult relationship .... every one of us. The status of WS or BS notwithstanding.

Changing over to a new partner does not solve our lack of courage. It intensifies our anxiety and deepens our self-loathing. But, that "high" hides this fact ... until the crash and burn stage.

Achieving intimacy, true and deep intimacy frightens most adults, despite our claims that intimacy is what we are lacking and seeking in our relationships.

That goes double for an EMR. Just the fact that it is an EMR guarentees there will be no deep intimacy risks taken, because the EMR partner is, in essence ... truely unavailable for 100% intimacy.

And THAT fear is why you Term, and Sungirl, and Pepper all were attracted to our men! We have an uncanny ability to choose partners with just enough flaws to protect us from true intimacy .... and we then can complain that our men are just not able to meet our needs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> or.... "if only he was free from his horrible, terrible wiffey then we'd make a great couple" ..... it's US that are flawed, and shaking with fear that if our men actually knew the real us ... they would no longer love us ... so we hide behind our favorite defense mechanism ... or drug ourselves .... or get overly busy with unimportant things .... there are a million ways we can avoid ourselves.

We meet our true selves when we surrender our fears. We become emotionally naked. Open. Vulnerable.

It is sooooo much easier to "pretend" these things are happening when with an EMR partner. But ... the authentic person would never cheat, lie, hide, hurt, sneak, or trash her self esteem and values to be with an unavailable man.

If you have become a woman of faith Term .... you are inching your way towards that peaceful surrender.

I think you are a woman of parts. I really do.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>